Would achieving 3rd place and a few good cup runs be considered a reasonable success next season?
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Would achieving 3rd place and a few good cup runs be considered a reasonable success next season?
Probably yes. Its about consistently punching our weight. A top 4 finish, win over Rangers and Celtic, a couple over Hearts/Aberdeen and a a semi appearence where we play well and give it a good shot would do me.
4th by a bawhair, wilting in big games and cup semi/final no shows would not be so good.
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
If we continually lose games like we did yesterday though then the manager will continue to attract a lot of criticism.
Yes, without a shadow of a doubt.
When was the last time we came third in consecutive seasons?
As a fan base we seem to demand one thing and as soon as we achieve it once there’s an expectation that’s the minimum we do the next season.
I want us to consistently show ourselves to be the best of the rest in the first instance and do that for 4/5 years. Obviously with cup runs in there too.
Sacking a manager after every disappointment is ridiculous and could set us back years with guys like Heckingbottom. Even Lennon, who some fans seemed to love never accomplished what Ross has and when he left us we were 8th.
Probably. If we lose heavily in Europe and have bad derby record then becomes less obvious than it should be.
Did we lose 7-0 in Europe? Did Hearts knock us out both cups?
3rd place will always be success for us, barring a Manchester City style takeover.
The cup runs completely depend upon which team knocks us out. Losing a final to St Johnstone in the manner we did yesterday will likely detract from the good work of finishing 3rd in a way that losing in the 3rd round (or whenever we enter) to Celtic or Rangers would not.
YesQuote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
Similar although I dont consider finishing 3rd or 4th punching above our weight, it should be our expectation. I'd replace your semi final appearance with a final appearance, personally I dont consider losing in a semi final much of a success.Quote:
Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES
Been a strange season for me, its a great achievement to finish third but a season littered with disappointments, in the latter stages of the cup and more than a few disappointing performances at home in the league. Done very well away from home. I think we are bit clueless sometimes when the onus is on us to take the game to the opposition. I will openly admit Im not Jacks greatest fan but Im not in the Jack out camp, let him build on what we have achieved this season.
I hope its as good as that but if Hearts and Aberdeen strengthen then with Celtic improving its going to be difficukt to finish 3rd and reach cup finals. Add to that a team overhaul and JR not getting the team up for the biggest games, my expectations are not that high but fingers crossed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
I would be delighted to be 5th and win both cups, maybe thats just me.....................
I said punching our weight, not above our weight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancs Harp
Apologies I need a stronger pair of reading glasses.Quote:
Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES
I get the gist of what u say. This season we should have finished 3rd or 4th. With Aberdeen under performing then 3rd is probably where we should have finished. So credit to JR for punching our weight but we have never this season punched above our weight imo. Some other clubs have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancs Harp
Given we finished 3rd and Aberdeen need a rebuild and Hearts are a mess I would say 3rd is level par next year. Anything under 5th should be seen as total failure with the position we are starting from
That made me laugh because its true some will feel that way and maybe theres a bit of irony in it. I am not sure where I stand on that particularly but if we had finished 3rd and won the SC I think I would have forgotten many dismal performances.Quote:
Originally Posted by green day
There are other tangible things we can look at not just finishing position and silverware which is all a bit binary.
I want to see:
- a settled formation;
- a really strong central midfield pairing if we continue with 4-4-2;
- the team improving significantly at making space for each other and forward runs;
- the team being more compact and moving and down the pitch together a lot more;
- the ability to give teams a real going over when on song; and
- the ability to mount a comeback after a poor first half and going a goal or two down;
-goals coming from all over the pitch not just 3 players;
- taking the game to the old firm, at least at home.
but preferably away too.
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Yes it is, but lets not pretend it's one disappointment, it's three disappointments because losing a derby semi final and then a semi and final to a club you should be able to beat 7 times out of 10 simply can't be acceptable for a club with stated aspirations to be better than it has been in the last 50 years. Third place will save JR for now and so it should, even if I am currently in the camp that wouldn't exactly cover themselves in sack cloth and ashes if he was gone tomorrow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unseen work
As for next season: Lets not kid ourselves here, it's not dissing the achievement of 3rd place to say it was at the expense of an Aberdeen team having it's worst season in terms of form at least for a good few years. This was not a Hibs team losing to only the best, we lost games to teams we need to be beating on a regular basis in order to justify best of the rest status for a sustained period.
Next season Hearts will be back in the league and I don't have to remind anybody that hard though it is to accept for years now it seems they could pick a team out of the office staff and still bloody beat us. FFS, last season they only won 4 bloody games and two of them were at Easter Road, the last one a 1 - 3 humiliation.
Aberdeen will come back stronger, they seem to have endless pots of money and if they spend it wisely on some decent front men they will be a far tougher challenge than they were this season, we will be very lucky if that doesn't happen.
The question is, what will Hibs do? It's clear we need at least one decent centre half to put pressure on Hanlon and Porteous because the answer isn't Darren McGregor in the medium to long term. If we do sell Doig and circa 3 million quid will be hard to turn down, we will then be looking for a new left back. We clearly need someone in midfield who can spot a pass and I remain to be convinced that Scott Allan can be the solution to that problem given his stop start career, on his day yes, but how often will that be?
It will be a bonus if Daniel MacKay can hit the ground running, because our one dimensional and seemingly only tactic of get the ball to Boyle and hope he can deliver was horribly exposed yesterday and will be again, stop Boyle and you stop Hibs is fast becoming the mantra of every opposition manager. It's something we need to sort out because it makes us totally predictable and it's not fair to Boyle either, he got pelters for yesterday, but how can you expect the guy to be the absolute fulcrum of every attack every bloody week and bring it every time, even in a cup final.
We also need a tall striker, something Hibs rarely have. Yesterday chucking on a guy who could win balls in the box would have been a way to change the game, we didn't have that and it cost us .... Doidge is ok in the air, but he isn't a target man IMO.
Finally and perhaps more important than any of that we need a captain who will ..... A) lead by example ... and B) harangue, bully and encourage his team mates to give every last ounce on the pitch. That is clearly something we do not have and it's time we addressed it.
I would be happy with 9th and winning a cup especially if the cup win gets us into Europe!Quote:
Originally Posted by green day
5th and 2 cups will be over the moon!
Doubt we will see another non old cup double anytime soon though.
Reckon we should win it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
Same here but we should build up to it gradually by getting a couple of shots on target against st Johnstone, then scoring a few goals and maybe even beat them.Quote:
Originally Posted by green day
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeithMike
Add in more pace in the team, playing with a quicker tempo and a stronger captain please.
But finishing third and cup runs would certainly look like success. However, as a result of what we have seen to date there is no doubt the pressure will now be on to see us win some 'big' games. What are they? Hard to say until we encounter them but in the absence of Cup Finals I'd say all the derbies fall into that category.
Regardless of winning trophies (which given the shortage of them in our history would certainly constitute a successful season), Hibs need a few big wins to keep fans onside. The odd win against the old firm, especially away from home would do wonders for the feel good factor. And we simply must beat hearts more times than they beat us next season. They are still a mess, I honestly think they’ll finish bottom 6. So I’d like at least two wins and a draw from the three games with them. The 1-3 home defeat from last year when they couldn’t buy a win against anyone else, and of course the Hampden semi final has really left Ross with a lot of work to do to get some fans back onside.
No you should always strive to be better.
That's a big club mentality. Going out in the semi final is not to be accepted. Not winning a final irrespective of who we are playing should not be accepted.
Whilst the old firm have more money it will be difficult to get better than 3rd place. If we had replicated our away form at home we could have split them this season.
It's going to be more competitive next season so it's critical recruitment is right.
“A good cup run”. I don’t understand why people at the start of a season would accept a scenario that means we lose a semi final or a final.
Winning a cup would be a successful season.
Finishing 3rd is reasonable next season, but I’d hardly be calling it a ‘success’.
The mentality at the club needs to change. Mediocrity is accepted. Look at this seeson, 3rd place is celebrated like it’s some miracle that’s been achieved. It should be the norm.
:agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve20
Semi finals and finals are far too vague a statement to say if they’d be a success or not. We could get to a final having only played league 1 and 2 teams and get beat by Clyde. That wouldn’t be a success, that would be abject failure but for some it would seem that because it was deemed a target at the start of the season to get to Hampden then we couldn’t be too critical.
On the other hand we could beat Aberdeen, Celtic and Hearts and lose to Rangers on pens. Whilst still disappointing it wouldn’t be abject failure. It would be a decent effort.
If we can do it regularly yes but it's getting beat in the cups in very winnable games with no OF in them that's let us down this season, add in the style of football and the all too often shocker of a game from nowhere and then we see the call for Ross's head like this weekend.
Good post. I’d add to that evidence that Ross is learning and adapting. The approach and failings of Saturday were concerning. Ross puzzles me, he seems to lack any sort of plan B and continues to make the same mistakes, yet he also has an ability to turn our slumps around.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeithMike
I agree with this hence why I think winning a cup is more important than league finish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve20
To win a cup you only have to win a few games and then a one off game against certain teams possibly like the Old Firm.
Fans who say win 2 or 3 of the Derbies - well we could win 2 or 3 but if we lose the other one 6-0 or even just lose it we really should be aiming for winning them all - Hearts have that mentality with derbies. We may be underdogs due to our derby record but we need to do more in these games.
As stated Ross needs to stop these horror show performances - he’s had enough of them this season and the final has now set him back after finishing 3rd. He needs some good results to get his stock back up or the pressure will increase even further.
Depends on the circumstances.
I consider this season more of a missed opportunity than a success. If the same things happen in the cups, it’d be the same. I don’t think we had good cup runs this season.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeithMike
Improvements needed...
Home record
When we lose the first goal or even 2-0 down..mindset
Derby record
Wins against St Johnstone
Win against the Old Firm
Wins against Aberdeen
Our central midfield
More striking options
Better subs - too often too late and it’s a panic when losing.
A midfielder who can actually be a playmaker / dictate games
A midfielder who scores goals
A left winger who plays regularly
Stronger bench - less injury prone players who don’t contribute
The problem Ross now has he will never get as big a chance to win two cups in a season.
Think there will be a fair few changes in the team too. As there should be after that final.
I’ve said this on another thread - it’s like he’s nearly over achieved this season and that opportunity won’t come again.Quote:
Originally Posted by HH81
He’s definitely under pressure to convince many that he has learnt from this season but many fans frustrations are coming from the lack of learning playing Saints several times and the same outcome doing the same thing - hence the warning signs.
This !Quote:
Originally Posted by green day
No, not just you. Everyone would like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by green day
I suppose this really comes back to who we’ve played.Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenCastle
In the league there’s not a lot of argument to be had. We’ve done well.
In the cups though we’ve faced nobody of note and ended up being defeated by St Johnstone twice and lower league Hearts when it really mattered. The St J games in particular being humiliations. That isn’t over achieving to me. If anything getting 3 opportunities in cups where you’ve reached Hampden and blowing them all whilst favourites is under achieving.
Do you think we should win the Champions League?Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve20
We just pretending Motherwell and Dundee United games never happened?Quote:
Originally Posted by calumhibee1
It should be the norm but it isn’t - you need to start somewhere but it sounds like you don’t want to and for us just to focus on the cups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve20
That’s fine like - set it out clearly and don’t complain when we’re in the bottom 6 though cos all eyes are on the cups. Use the league games as warm ups for the next cup match.
Getting beat 1-0 in the final against St Johnstone is hardly a humiliation. They won another cup and put out der der Hun on the way to the final. Cup games are a momentary snap shot of form on any one particular day, the only true measure of how good or bad a team is, is their league position at the end of the season. Hibs have proven themselves to be the 3rd best team in Scotland this year, how anyone can see that as anything other than a success goes beyond my imagination and firing a manager for not winning a cup is ludicrous, if that was the deciding factor of whether a Hibs manager keeps his job or not, then we'd have had well over a hundred managers since 1902.Quote:
Originally Posted by calumhibee1
Beating 2 bottom six sides, one on penalties, isn’t anything worth shouting from the rooftops about IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by matty_f
The way we applied (or didn’t apply) ourselves in a national final is the humiliating part, not the result.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
Especially when your 2-0 up in one of them and very nearly chucked it.Quote:
Originally Posted by bingo70
The dundee utd semi final was one of the easiest I’ve seen us have in my lifetime. Part due to us playing well on the day and part due to dundee utd being absolutely horrific
League - if we can manage consecutive 3rd place finishes, that would be a great achievement in its own right. Especially since Celtic & Aberdeen will be forced to improve.
Cups - can we make amends for this season? It'll be tough, but the gauntlet is there for the team to go one more.
Europe - as far as we can, it would be massive to progress to the group stages. I don't know how likely that will be, as I think the general quality of teams in the conference league is lower, but there will still be some very good teams we could draw.
So no credit to St Johnstone for not allowing Hibs to play their game? St Johnstone fans looking in here must be laughing at the arrogance of our support. We're starting to sound like entitled Yams.Quote:
Originally Posted by B.H.F.C
I don’t care about St Johnstone. I care about the way we applied ourselves in a national cup final. If we just played poorly, I could deal with that, it happens. They wanted it far more than us. Our players weren’t interested in doing the basic things you need to do win a game of football.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
The arrogance of our players, thinking they didn’t need to try, is far more of an issue than the arrogance of our support.
Here is the paradox of this season, if we had not got into a final we would not be feeling the way we do....we would be celebrating 3rd and debating what we could do next season. We did though, we were in the last 4 in two cups with no OF, Aberdeen or Hearts....insulting to say the double was there for the taking but our exits were so meek, like we were just happy to be there for a kick about. St J didn't have to play well on Saturday, they hardly had to play at all.....we could have played until midnight and not had a clear opportunity let alone scored. Chances like this season are unique and will never happen again.....no one will remember or even care who finished 3rd in 2021....St J however made history.....that could have been us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
the fact is we have seemingly learned nothing from our previous games against them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
that final on Saturday was remarkably similar to the LC semi. We squandered a great chance, they put theirs away. Game over, we never looked like coming back. We could have had no complaints if it was another 3-0, as well as the penalty they looked dangerous every single time they attacked us in the second half.
Not shouting about it, just acknowledging it happened and not pretending that playing Premiership opposition isn’t a tough tie.Quote:
Originally Posted by bingo70
I don’t understand the rush to demean the team’s positive results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart93
It’s actually pathetic.
Define pathetic.Quote:
Originally Posted by matty_f
Is it demeaning or is it being realistic? Were dundee utd good? We won the game and didn’t even have to come out of 2nd gear. Was it one of the least competitive semi finals you’ve ever seen us having?
I was shouting pretty loudly when we beat a championship side in the 2007 cup semi. Or a championship side in the 2016 final.Quote:
Originally Posted by bingo70
Couldn't give a ***** who we beat, or how we do it, in cup ties.
I personally think the good cup runs are being held up as some sort of great achievement. Looking at who we played, I don’t think they were.Quote:
Originally Posted by matty_f
We beat teams we should beat and eventually lost to teams we should beat. I don’t see anything in these cup runs that are great cause for celebration or pats on the back, the closest was the Dundee Utd game but they’re terrible so even then, no, I’m not seeing it as a great achievement to get past them.
I actually.Quote:
Originally Posted by matty_f
So many genuine reasons to have a go at Hibs right now. Bizarre to start downplaying the good ones and making stuff up.
Do you look back at 2004 as a great cup run? We beat much better sides than in 2016? Was 2004 a better achivement?Quote:
Originally Posted by bingo70
No but if you’re reviewing how the season went, heralding cup runs as a sign for success when we only played the ***** it stretching it IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES
Ross will rightly get praise for finishing 3rd. We’ve built the 3rd best team in the country so he can take all the praise in the world for that.
The cup runs though? Nah, sorry, not for me, we got very very fortunate with the last 3 cup draws and were unable to take advantage of them. Beating two bottom 6 sides doesn’t change anything for me.
2004 was a good cup run. I still can’t look back on it with anything other than disappointment mind youQuote:
Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pagan Hibernia
Which is why I can never understand defining a successful season as reaching a semi final or a final because you’ll always look back on them as a disappointment.
:agree: defining it / measuring it on the league table is the fairest way all round.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart93