Hibernian FC Finances

Can we start a new thread discussing the situation as it relates to our own club? There’s a lot about the comedy finances at our near neighbours but not so much relating to our own financial position. We need to be careful what we celebrate, considering our previous history of laughing at our closest rival’s relegation only to follow them down the rabbit hole a few weeks later.

One does assume that we are in a relatively heathy position at the moment, having not overspent on anything but until the 2020 season’s accounts are published we won’t really know how high our wage bill is.

In relation to HFC’s finances, various points for discussion would be:

1. Why haven’t our accounts for 2019 been filed yet?
2. Is our wage bill high this year?
3. What charges are held over the assets of the club?

Aside from Celtic I am assuming we are the second healthiest club (financially) in Scotland. Can anyone refute this?

Point 3 is the most worrying for me. Are we likely to get caught up in the financial turmoil in the USA and get taken down by a stray charge over the stadium/training centre?

We have not even had one home game missed yet. In total it’s likely to be about £1m lost if we start next season on time. Scottish cup income may only be delayed. We should be able to cope so long as next season starts on time. We won’t know that until summer.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

We have not even had one home game missed yet. In total it’s likely to be about £1m lost if we start next season on time. Scottish cup income may only be delayed. We should be able to cope so long as next season starts on time. We won’t know that until summer.


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We were meant to play St Johnstone (I think) at home last Saturday.

Any club who immediately put it to cut 50pct of all staff costs or start offering redundancies was living on the edge

Other clubs might go the same way but I'm really surprised hearts have moved so quickly

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

We have not even had one home game missed yet. In total it’s likely to be about £1m lost if we start next season on time. Scottish cup income may only be delayed. We should be able to cope so long as next season starts on time. We won’t know that until summer.


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Pretty much how I see it but not easy to be clear based on accounts numbers that are just moment in time figures, we will definitely have less now in my view.

Unknown is financial support from the owner and how he might provide or raise those funds if needed. I think we're probably in as good a place as we can be compared to most others and given the sudden and dramatic change in events

Dig in and get on with it tends to be our way, hopefully that continues.

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Budge stating they will lose £500,000 from the Scottish Cup semi not being played is being a tad misleading. Scottish Cup money is not budgeted for at the start of a financial year so is not lost income. Any money you receive from a cup run will be a bonus to the budget.

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Originally Posted by GordonHFC

Budge stating they will lose £500,000 from the Scottish Cup semi not being played is being a tad misleading. Scottish Cup money is not budgeted for at the start of a financial year so is not lost income. Any money you receive from a cup run will be a bonus to the budget.

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Depends what they budgeted for I guess. :greengrin

Would be ambitious to have done that though, at the start of the year at least.

I think we used to (maybe still do) budget for the QF of each cup each year.

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Originally Posted by GordonHFC

Budge stating they will lose £500,000 from the Scottish Cup semi not being played is being a tad misleading. Scottish Cup money is not budgeted for at the start of a financial year so is not lost income. Any money you receive from a cup run will be a bonus to the budget.

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Yep, they've been overspending and spending what they haven't got, we would hopefully seen the unbudgeted income here as a welcome bonus to invest in future plans that were already there. Not blowing it against existing and probably concealed overspending.

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Assuming this season is ended early - won't the club have a contractual liability to refund ST holders for the 4/5 games that they've paid for but were cancelled? (Not saying most would want a refund - but in accounting terms it would affect the bottom line).

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Originally Posted by Callum_62

Any club who immediately put it to cut 50pct of all staff costs or start offering redundancies was living on the edge

Other clubs might go the same way but I'm really surprised hearts have moved so quickly

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My immediate thought was where is the FOH money going?

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

My immediate thought was where is the FOH money going?

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I thought they would have millions in funds ready to plough in but apparently not, apparently they hand the funds over to Budge every month and are skint too. Crazy ****.

Hasnt FOH put in nearly 9 million quid?

Absolutely crazy sums

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Originally Posted by cocteautwin

Can we start a new thread discussing the situation as it relates to our own club? There’s a lot about the comedy finances at our near neighbours but not so much relating to our own financial position. We need to be careful what we celebrate, considering our previous history of laughing at our closest rival’s relegation only to follow them down the rabbit hole a few weeks later.

One does assume that we are in a relatively heathy position at the moment, having not overspent on anything but until the 2020 season’s accounts are published we won’t really know how high our wage bill is.

In relation to HFC’s finances, various points for discussion would be:

1. Why haven’t our accounts for 2019 been filed yet?
2. Is our wage bill high this year?
3. What charges are held over the assets of the club?

Aside from Celtic I am assuming we are the second healthiest club (financially) in Scotland. Can anyone refute this?

Point 3 is the most worrying for me. Are we likely to get caught up in the financial turmoil in the USA and get taken down by a stray charge over the stadium/training centre?

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From the AGM - the accounts have been filed, I think - certainly they've been issued to shareholders and widely reported (they're on the official site, for example - at least a summary is).

Our wage bill was within the 60% wages to turnover recommendation (think we were at 59%, from memory) - higher than previous years but within the healthy limit.

No charges are held over the club unless we borrow, which we haven't.

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Originally Posted by matty_f

From the AGM - the accounts have been filed, I think - certainly they've been issued to shareholders and widely reported (they're on the official site, for example - at least a summary is).

Our wage bill was within the 60% wages to turnover recommendation (think we were at 59%, from memory) - higher than previous years but within the healthy limit.

No charges are held over the club unless we borrow, which we haven't.

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And I presume the money for Villa getting promoted, will be in the next accounts?

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Originally Posted by Liberal Hibby

Assuming this season is ended early - won't the club have a contractual liability to refund ST holders for the 4/5 games that they've paid for but were cancelled? (Not saying most would want a refund - but in accounting terms it would affect the bottom line).

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I'd imagine the club would want to avoid more cash going out as refunds, but appears a valid point re ST holders. Why not they give them free access to Scottish Cup games or pre-season friendlies next season as an acknowledgement or thank you re games missed? I'm not a ST holder, but think their contribution should be recognised/rewarded, if not in £££ terms.

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Originally Posted by Callum_62

Hasnt FOH put in nearly 9 million quid?

Absolutely crazy sums

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Yep. Every penny *****ed away and now they think Budge is ahead of the times with yesterday’s announcement.

I'm not an accountant perhaps one of the lads that are can clarify but I would have thought cash at hand would be separate from the clubs working funds ie in addition to.
I'm sure STF mentioned he was leaving g the club in a very very healthy cash state

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

My immediate thought was where is the FOH money going?

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There has been constant rumours around where exactly that money was been diverted to or part diverted to.

Budge brother in law (hibby) busineee is in better shape than its ever been given the stand work. Estimates like £1.5m to fit out the 4th floor seem high but what do I know 👀

Am I not right in saying that a large proportion of our players wages are bonus related?? Win bonus, clean sheet bonus, goal scoring bonus.. so we would be saving in this regard. Also with the training centre partially closed and the ground not in use surely bills will be getting saved here too??

Granted not enough to break even by any stretch of the imagination but a saving none the less.

I also could be spouting absolute bollox [emoji23]


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Originally Posted by Billy Whizz

And I presume the money for Villa getting promoted, will be in the next accounts?

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I could be wrong but I think it was included in the accounts just published.

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Originally Posted by matty_f

I could be wrong but I think it was included in the accounts just published.

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I don't know for sure as I haven't seen the accounts but I would expect it to be included as it was known to be coming in and arose before the year end. If the cash hadn't been received it would be reflected in debtors.

BTW The accounts haven't been filed at Companies House yet, or at least aren't online. The filing deadline is the end of this month.

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Originally Posted by Liberal Hibby

Assuming this season is ended early - won't the club have a contractual liability to refund ST holders for the 4/5 games that they've paid for but were cancelled? (Not saying most would want a refund - but in accounting terms it would affect the bottom line).

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On the contrary I would happily pay a deposit of say £200 on my next season ticket. That could be deducted from the actual price when football restarts. Almost like becoming a member of Hibs. I do realise that there will be many who can't do this in the current climate but any funds raised can only help our club through extremely difficult times.

Is the financial effects of this really as bad as people think?

I dont think the financial position for us would be too bad unless season ticket holders suddenly wanted partial refunds, which i doubt.

I understand we will lose different streams of income, and of course any loss of revenue is always a concern but i would assume gate receipts would always be the big one. How many walk up fans do we actually have? With season tickets already being paid for, is the loss of this really that big when you consider the operating costs that we will save? Policing etc.

When you also consider a fair chunk of wages will be bonus related , the outgoings in terms of wages will likely already have decreased.

Assuming Hibs lose the income from the remaining four league games (I'm leaving out the Scottish Cup money, as that surely is a bonus), just how much would we actually lose?


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The before the split home games would be (with estimated attendances based on last year's games + current form)

St Johnstone (16,500)
Celtc (20,000)


In addition, we'd be due to play two home games after the split, Let's say:

The Rangers (19,500)
Aberdeen (18,000)

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If you take off the ~13k Season Tickets, that's four games with an average tickets sold of 5.5k per game.

A reasonably large number of those will be concession tickets, and St J and Aberdeen aren't Category A so, let's be generous and say the average cost is £20 per ticket.

That would be £110k per match, or roughly £450k in total.... minus VAT, policing, player bonuses and other costs.

There is not a chance of ST numbers remaining the same. Many families will be facing financial hardship and budgeting will be prioritising food on the table/rents and mortgages and household bills. Many budgets won’t stretch to Season Tickets and match tickets and I’d expect a big drop for next season which will be a concern for the club going forward.
While the clubs finances look to be in decent enough health to ride this out, the finances of those who contribute towards that might well not be.

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Originally Posted by Blurry Face

How much are you estimating we get for corporate hospitality and match day sponsorship?
Or, won’t get.

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I don't know but I don't think that's a major percentage of our match-day income.

Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.

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Originally Posted by Carheenlea

There is not a chance of ST numbers remaining the same. Many families will be facing financial hardship and budgeting will be prioritising food on the table/rents and mortgages and household bills. Many budgets won’t stretch to Season Tickets and match tickets and I’d expect a big drop for next season which will be a concern for the club going forward.
While the clubs finances look to be in decent enough health to ride this out, the finances of those who contribute towards that might well not be.

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While that may be the case for many there will also be others who are stuck at home unable to spend their money. Civil servants spring to mind. As Next said, no one buys a new top to sit at home.

They may have surplus cash to put towards a season ticket. I know it's a minority but I am trying to find some positive.

I just hope all of us come through it OK.

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Originally Posted by PatHead

While that may be the case for many there will also be others who are stuck at home unable to spend their money. Civil servants spring to mind. As Next said, no one buys a new top to sit at home.

They may have surplus cash to put towards a season ticket. I know it's a minority but I am trying to find some positive.

I just hope all of us come through it OK.

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I'm quite fortunate in my line of work, that we can continue working at home.

If there's still a club to support next season, I'd happily buy Season Tickets for other people, as it would help both my fellow Hibbies and the club.

I'm far from being rich but I don't mind trying to help out where I can.

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Originally Posted by Keith_M

I'm quite fortunate in my line of work, that we can continue working at home.

If there's still a club to support next season, I'd happily buy Season Tickets for other people, as it would help both my fellow Hibbies and the club.

I'm far from being rich but I don't mind trying to help out where I can.

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I was trying to get into the church hall to work otherwise I'm going to end up divorced or in jail by the time this is over🤣🤣

It was reported a few days ago only one club didn't have insurance.

I think it's now obvious which club that was.

Power has been on the Bounce assuring us Hibs have business interruption insurance.

It's not going to be easy but what I've seen coming from the club is calm and reassuring; the Leeann interview; the Nathan Ring interview; Hibees at home and others suggest we've had a disaster (recovery) plan and it's rolling out rather nicely at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Jack

It was reported a few days ago only one club didn't have insurance.

I think it's now obvious which club that was.

Power has been on the Bounce assuring us Hibs have business interruption insurance.

It's not going to be easy but what I've seen coming from the club is calm and reassuring; the Leeann interview; the Nathan Ring interview; Hibees at home and others suggest we've had a disaster (recovery) plan and it's rolling out rather nicely at the moment.

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You would expect the unmatched businesswoman that is Ann Budge would also have such insurance in place. Or maybe not.

The fallacy over at the wee ground must be getting worn out now.

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Originally Posted by Jack

It was reported a few days ago only one club didn't have insurance.

I think it's now obvious which club that was.

Power has been on the Bounce assuring us Hibs have business interruption insurance.

It's not going to be easy but what I've seen coming from the club is calm and reassuring; the Leeann interview; the Nathan Ring interview; Hibees at home and others suggest we've had a disaster (recovery) plan and it's rolling out rather nicely at the moment.

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Very timely Jack - gives me a chance to do a cut and paste job ✅ Good thread, some great points and references back to the AGM.

Hibs are in a good position as can be - business interruption insurance or similar insurance is in place for most clubs, including ours, but that’s an unknown world in unprecedented times - dealings & conversations possibly a long drawn out process? Especially given the number one focus for the country.

Hibs have been very thorough and quick in the background to all of this so far (were preparing for a game on the Saturday this time last week!). Impressed how they’ve mobilised staff, put out a number of video, interviews and content updates to supporters (more to come) and moved forward with a robust business continuity plan.

Expect to hear more from them soon as this has all landed when Season Tickets were about to launch - our biggest income driver - See what next week brings and an update where we are.

(Wouldn’t worry about the filing - my short experience shows that is very slow at being uploaded despite returned correctly - the available records highlight time differences).

I think I'll worry about finances closer to home through all this rather than "what ifs" and "whatabouteries" on here

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Originally Posted by Fuzzywuzzy

I was trying to get into the church hall to work otherwise I'm going to end up divorced or in jail by the time this is over🤣🤣

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My missus has already threatened me with bodily harm a few times.


I like to think of it as foreplay..


:greengrin

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Originally Posted by Callum_62

Any club who immediately put it to cut 50pct of all staff costs or start offering redundancies was living on the edge

Other clubs might go the same way but I'm really surprised hearts have moved so quickly

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they haven’t even missed a home game yet have they?

it smells very fishy

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Originally Posted by McD

they haven’t even missed a home game yet have they?

it smells very fishy

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How many people are going to be paid off as their work cannot exist allowing people to stay home on full pay?
What I think Budgie has done is in a way admirable, her team cannot play games or train, and although they are contracted to be paid in full, its a measure to safe guard their club as a whole.
I don't think they will be the only club going down this route, others will follow sooner rather than later.

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Originally Posted by where'stheslope

How many people are going to be paid off as their work cannot exist allowing people to stay home on full pay?
What I think Budgie has done is in a way admirable, her team cannot play games or train, and although they are contracted to be paid in full, its a measure to safe guard their club as a whole.
I don't think they will be the only club going down this route, others will follow sooner rather than later.

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I don't disagree but it seems like an ultimatum rather than a negotiation with players. Also it is like a very quick cliff edge fall off with no time for players and staff to assess and plan for the consequences. Most people live to their income and a 50% drop for anyone will have a huge impact.

Surely they could have waited a couple of weeks and had a proper conversation with staff, could even have asked the players to pay all support and admin staff salaries.

I agree others will follow but I just hope they give staff time and have open and honest conversation around why this has to happen now.

Look at what happened to Berra there is no loyalty in football clubs empty players like sour milk.

I'm sure I read on the bbc website that clubs are contractually obliged to refund single tickets but not season tickets - in full or partially. I've got 4 season tickets and wouldn't want any form of refund.

We'd be entitled to our money back if the season is voided (as would sponsors, TV companies etc) because that would mean that season 19/20 never happened.

But if the season is concluded in any manner (including the current standings becoming final), then the season has taken place and we don't get a penny.

On the subject of “Business Interruption Insurance” I was listening to some expert on Radio Scotland yesterday who was saying that insurance companies are not going to pay out on this. His opinion was that when companies check their policy they will find that they are insured for “any known virus” As this is a new virus the insurers will not pay out.
He did say that some larger companies may have paid extra to have the word “known” removed but for most it would be a no show from insurers.

Maybe an insurance expert can come along and tell us what the situation might be but it stuck me that it sounded like a very unfair get out for insurers if it was true.

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Originally Posted by CentreLine

On the subject of “Business Interruption Insurance” I was listening to some expert on Radio Scotland yesterday who was saying that insurance companies are not going to pay out on this. His opinion was that when companies check their policy they will find that they are insured for “any known virus” As this is a new virus the insurers will not pay out.
He did say that some larger companies may have paid extra to have the word “known” removed but for most it would be a no show from insurers.

Maybe an insurance expert can come along and tell us what the situation might be but it stuck me that it sounded like a very unfair get out for insurers if it was true.

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Absolutely pathetic if that's that's case

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Originally Posted by Brooster

I'm sure I read on the bbc website that clubs are contractually obliged to refund single tickets but not season tickets - in full or partially. I've got 4 season tickets and wouldn't want any form of refund.

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In the current climate I’d imagine most of us would feel the same. But it’s difficult to say how many might be depending on some kind of refund.

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Originally Posted by CentreLine

On the subject of “Business Interruption Insurance” I was listening to some expert on Radio Scotland yesterday who was saying that insurance companies are not going to pay out on this. His opinion was that when companies check their policy they will find that they are insured for “any known virus” As this is a new virus the insurers will not pay out.
He did say that some larger companies may have paid extra to have the word “known” removed but for most it would be a no show from insurers.

Maybe an insurance expert can come along and tell us what the situation might be but it stuck me that it sounded like a very unfair get out for insurers if it was true.

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Not really unfair if that is a policy condition - read before you sign. Insurers are infamous for offering a lot less than you thought you were getting but it is somebody's job to check the small print.

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Originally Posted by CentreLine

On the subject of “Business Interruption Insurance” I was listening to some expert on Radio Scotland yesterday who was saying that insurance companies are not going to pay out on this. His opinion was that when companies check their policy they will find that they are insured for “any known virus” As this is a new virus the insurers will not pay out.
He did say that some larger companies may have paid extra to have the word “known” removed but for most it would be a no show from insurers.

Maybe an insurance expert can come along and tell us what the situation might be but it stuck me that it sounded like a very unfair get out for insurers if it was true.

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I was reading up about that insurance at the weekend and think that’s exactly the case.

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Originally Posted by gloryhunter

Not really unfair if that is a policy condition - read before you sign. Insurers are infamous for offering a lot less than you thought you were getting but it is somebody's job to check the small print.

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It may of course not be accurate but it is what the “expert” was saying. I personally thought it was unfair but you are right, if that’s what the small print says .....

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Originally Posted by CentreLine

On the subject of “Business Interruption Insurance” I was listening to some expert on Radio Scotland yesterday who was saying that insurance companies are not going to pay out on this. His opinion was that when companies check their policy they will find that they are insured for “any known virus” As this is a new virus the insurers will not pay out.
He did say that some larger companies may have paid extra to have the word “known” removed but for most it would be a no show from insurers.

Maybe an insurance expert can come along and tell us what the situation might be but it stuck me that it sounded like a very unfair get out for insurers if it was true.

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Insurance companies will shortly need customers like the banks did in 2008 or so.

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Originally Posted by gloryhunter

Not really unfair if that is a policy condition - read before you sign. Insurers are infamous for offering a lot less than you thought you were getting but it is somebody's job to check the small print.

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Might also be unfair if their premises were targeted whilst unoccupied in these quiet conditions, yet infamous times. Imagine working for those ****s.

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Originally Posted by Since90+2

You would expect the unmatched businesswoman that is Ann Budge would also have such insurance in place. Or maybe not.

The fallacy over at the wee ground must be getting worn out now.

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Unless it was rangers, with their liabilities and expenses it would cost them a fortune.

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Originally Posted by Iggy Pope

Might also be unfair if their premises were targeted whilst unoccupied in these quiet conditions, yet infamous times. Imagine working for those ****s.

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That would be very unfair and totally unacceptable.

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Originally Posted by CentreLine

On the subject of “Business Interruption Insurance” I was listening to some expert on Radio Scotland yesterday who was saying that insurance companies are not going to pay out on this. His opinion was that when companies check their policy they will find that they are insured for “any known virus” As this is a new virus the insurers will not pay out.
He did say that some larger companies may have paid extra to have the word “known” removed but for most it would be a no show from insurers.

Maybe an insurance expert can come along and tell us what the situation might be but it stuck me that it sounded like a very unfair get out for insurers if it was true.

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Shameful I thought the bold Boris was calling out the insurance companies to pay out on this. He needs to be called out immediately

Every policy is different. It being declared both a "notifiable disease" and also a "pandemic" will help, as these are phrases that are often used. The comment around "new diseases" someone mentioned isn't something I've seen before, I'd be more wary of exclusions around "contagious diseases". Every additional level of cover will have cost more in premiums, so I suspect it'll be a case of some can claim and some can't, the ones who can are the ones who had the proper insurance.
Just calling out on insurance companies to pay would also be irresponsible, as in that scenario (where they are paying when they shouldn't have been) may well put some of them to the wall, and possibly end up in the companies who had the correct insurance, not being paid what they are due

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Originally Posted by Since90+2

You would expect the unmatched businesswoman that is Ann Budge would also have such insurance in place. Or maybe not.

The fallacy over at the wee ground must be getting worn out now.

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She sent the signed insurance forms to Daplast and ordered 7000 seats from Legal & General.

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Originally Posted by CentreLine

On the subject of “Business Interruption Insurance” I was listening to some expert on Radio Scotland yesterday who was saying that insurance companies are not going to pay out on this. His opinion was that when companies check their policy they will find that they are insured for “any known virus” As this is a new virus the insurers will not pay out.
He did say that some larger companies may have paid extra to have the word “known” removed but for most it would be a no show from insurers.

Maybe an insurance expert can come along and tell us what the situation might be but it stuck me that it sounded like a very unfair get out for insurers if it was true.

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I'm no expert but Coronavirus and whatever the plural is aren't unknown.

... and there is the first failure for the insurance companies argument in a court case I'd imagine. Although I suspect it would take a very expensive and drawn out court case to decide that I am right lol

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Originally Posted by CentreLine

On the subject of “Business Interruption Insurance” I was listening to some expert on Radio Scotland yesterday who was saying that insurance companies are not going to pay out on this. His opinion was that when companies check their policy they will find that they are insured for “any known virus” As this is a new virus the insurers will not pay out.
He did say that some larger companies may have paid extra to have the word “known” removed but for most it would be a no show from insurers.

Maybe an insurance expert can come along and tell us what the situation might be but it stuck me that it sounded like a very unfair get out for insurers if it was true.

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Mibbe im daft but the coronavirus has been around a while so it is known.
Its the Covid-19 part that is new

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Originally Posted by matty_f

From the AGM - the accounts have been filed, I think - certainly they've been issued to shareholders and widely reported (they're on the official site, for example - at least a summary is).

Our wage bill was within the 60% wages to turnover recommendation (think we were at 59%, from memory) - higher than previous years but within the healthy limit.

No charges are held over the club unless we borrow, which we haven't.

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There's a couple of mistakes in your statements above:

- The accounts haven't been filed yet - they are to be filed by 31 March at the latest. The later than normal filing struck me as a little unusual but it's not a major concern. I presume there's nothing to hide in the accounts.

- There are two charges held over the assets of the club (one being over the training ground and one being over the stadium itself). These were registered on 16 July and 12 August and held by Bydand Sports LLC (RG's Holding Company) over the club:

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...filing-history

I haven't seen these charges over HFC's assets discussed at all on this board. The major concern is whether anyone has a charge over the assets of Bydand Sports LLC which in effect means they are holding a position over the club. It's not possible to see if there are any charges over Bydand as it's a Delaware LLC and as such almost impossible to find out any information about. Considering the turmoil in the financial markets at the moment, the biggest risk to Hibs appears to be these charges. I don't suppose we would ever find out if there are any further charges up the chain until any rights are exercised but I do think it's a risk that needs to be discussed.

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Originally Posted by Eyrie

We'd be entitled to our money back if the season is voided (as would sponsors, TV companies etc) because that would mean that season 19/20 never happened.

But if the season is concluded in any manner (including the current standings becoming final), then the season has taken place and we don't get a penny.

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You might be entitled to it, but, it does not mean you would get it, TUI travel company are refusing refunding/compensating travelers holidays in Holland as they will go bankrupt.

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Originally Posted by Jack

I'm no expert but Coronavirus and whatever the plural is aren't unknown.

... and there is the first failure for the insurance companies argument in a court case I'd imagine. Although I suspect it would take a very expensive and drawn out court case to decide that I am right lol

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Was going to say exactly that. Coronaviruses are not unknown , only this strain , so I suppose it's how you want to look at it and exactly how it's worded.

At the AGM it was stated that we had £5.5 million cash in the bank I would hope this would see us through to what would have been the end of the season. Can someone who does pols put one up regarding season tickets for next season ie who has budgeted for who has one this year but wont afford one next year. Any suggestions to get a feel for sales next year. Thank you in anticipation.

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Originally Posted by cocteautwin

I haven't seen these charges over HFC's assets discussed at all on this board. I don't suppose we would ever find out if there are any further charges up the chain until any rights are exercised but I do think it's a risk that needs to be discussed.

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Discussed extensively at the time of RG takeover - but as you point out, times have changed considerably since then.

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Originally Posted by cocteautwin

There's a couple of mistakes in your statements above:

- The accounts haven't been filed yet - they are to be filed by 31 March at the latest. The later than normal filing struck me as a little unusual but it's not a major concern. I presume there's nothing to hide in the accounts.

- There are two charges held over the assets of the club (one being over the training ground and one being over the stadium itself). These were registered on 16 July and 12 August and held by Bydand Sports LLC (RG's Holding Company) over the club:

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...filing-history

I haven't seen these charges over HFC's assets discussed at all on this board. The major concern is whether anyone has a charge over the assets of Bydand Sports LLC which in effect means they are holding a position over the club. It's not possible to see if there are any charges over Bydand as it's a Delaware LLC and as such almost impossible to find out any information about. Considering the turmoil in the financial markets at the moment, the biggest risk to Hibs appears to be these charges. I don't suppose we would ever find out if there are any further charges up the chain until any rights are exercised but I do think it's a risk that needs to be discussed.

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Power has confirmed above that they have been filed.

My understanding is that while there is a standing charge held, it is irrelevant unless money is borrowed from Bydand - we haven't borrowed anything therefore it's not active.

The charge is in place to give us the option of borrowing if we need it.

The fact that the charges are in place means that RG can bale out the club with immediate effect if need be, knowing that the mechanism is in place to protect his money.

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Originally Posted by Sammy7nil

I don't disagree but it seems like an ultimatum rather than a negotiation with players. Also it is like a very quick cliff edge fall off with no time for players and staff to assess and plan for the consequences. Most people live to their income and a 50% drop for anyone will have a huge impact.

Surely they could have waited a couple of weeks and had a proper conversation with staff, could even have asked the players to pay all support and admin staff salaries.

I agree others will follow but I just hope they give staff time and have open and honest conversation around why this has to happen now.

Look at what happened to Berra there is no loyalty in football clubs empty players like sour milk.

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Just seen in the papers this morning, that there is a clause in the SPFL players contract, that if there is no games being played players wages can be withdrawn until games resume!!!
Also, Borrusia Dortmund and Hoffenhiem have also cut players salaries by 50%.
These times are really bad, and wait and see could cost more in the long run!!!

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Originally Posted by matty_f

Power has confirmed above that they have been filed.

My understanding is that while there is a standing charge held, it is irrelevant unless money is borrowed from Bydand - we haven't borrowed anything therefore it's not active.

The charge is in place to give us the option of borrowing if we need it.

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The accounts still aren't available at Companies House. I don't know the arrangement at Hibs but it's often the case in smaller companies that the auditor takes care of the Companies House filing so the delay may be down to them. Plenty of shareholders have seen the accounts and no real concerns have been raised to I wouldn't be concerned about anything being hidden in them (that's to cocteautwin). Unless RG is a Romanov type character I'm not greatly concerned about the charges either. They're common business practice and Ron doesn't seem to be the sort of person that would be lending us other people's money.

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Originally Posted by Caversham Green

The accounts still aren't available at Companies House. I don't know the arrangement at Hibs but it's often the case in smaller companies that the auditor takes care of the Companies House filing so the delay may be down to them. Plenty of shareholders have seen the accounts and no real concerns have been raised to I wouldn't be concerned about anything being hidden in them (that's to cocteautwin). Unless RG is a Romanov type character I'm not greatly concerned about the charges either. They're common business practice and Ron doesn't seem to be the sort of person that would be lending us other people's money.

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The potential problem isn’t the charge over HFC assets by Bydand it’s the unknown possible charge over Bydand’s assets by some party that we can’t see due to the secrecy rules of Delaware LLCs.

It’s the one black mark on HFC’s finances and in the current financial climate I think our supporters or HSL should be vocal about having the charges removed.

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Originally Posted by cocteautwin

The potential problem isn’t the charge over HFC assets by Bydand it’s the unknown possible charge over Bydand’s assets by some party that we can’t see due to the secrecy rules of Delaware LLCs.

It’s the one black mark on HFC’s finances and in the current financial climate I think our supporters or HSL should be vocal about having the charges removed.

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OK, and Ron can tell the board to do one when we run to him looking for cash.

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Originally Posted by cocteautwin

The potential problem isn’t the charge over HFC assets by Bydand it’s the unknown possible charge over Bydand’s assets by some party that we can’t see due to the secrecy rules of Delaware LLCs.

It’s the one black mark on HFC’s finances and in the current financial climate I think our supporters or HSL should be vocal about having the charges removed.

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I disagree strongly about having the charges removed. They give scope for Ron to inject funds into the club if necessary and removing them would not remove the risk presented by charges further up the tree. If the unthinkable were to happen Ron's creditors would take control of his shares in the club anyway whether or not the charges in the club were in place.

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Originally Posted by Peevemor

OK, and Ron can tell the board to do one when we run to him looking for cash.

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Originally Posted by Caversham Green

I disagree strongly about having the charges removed. They give scope for Ron to inject funds into the club if necessary and removing them would not remove the risk presented by charges further up the tree. If the unthinkable were to happen Ron's creditors would take control of his shares in the club anyway whether or not the charges in the club were in place.

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It’s interesting to have this discussion. My own personal opinion is that as he is majority owner he should have the confidence in his own stewardship that Hibs should be a well run club and he therefore shouldn’t need to protect any investment by a charge over the assets. There’s no real NEED for the charges to exist.

My biggest concern about the charges, and I know this is controversial, is that removal of the charges would give the fans confidence that the purchase of the club wasn’t financed by a bank that has taken a charge over the asset further up the chain. With the charges sitting there it means there will always be a suspicion over the financing of the transaction.

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Originally Posted by cocteautwin

It’s interesting to have this discussion. My own personal opinion is that as he is majority owner he should have the confidence in his own stewardship that Hibs should be a well run club and he therefore shouldn’t need to protect any investment by a charge over the assets. There’s no real NEED for the charges to exist.

My biggest concern about the charges, and I know this is controversial, is that removal of the charges would give the fans confidence that the purchase of the club wasn’t financed by a bank that has taken a charge over the asset further up the chain. With the charges sitting there it means there will always be a suspicion over the financing of the transaction.

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The charges were put in place after Ron purchased the club. Had it happened simultaneously then eyebrows might have been raised.

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Originally Posted by Peevemor

The charges were put in place after Ron purchased the club. Had it happened simultaneously then eyebrows might have been raised.

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The new loan and the charges could easily both have taken place after the purchase of the club.

(I'm not saying he took out a loan to purchase the club, just mere speculation and another slightly possible reason as to why the charges exist).

I hope Ron took
The opportunity to inject more cash when the pound was showing at 1.15 dollars earlier this week🤗

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Originally Posted by cocteautwin

It’s interesting to have this discussion. My own personal opinion is that as he is majority owner he should have the confidence in his own stewardship that Hibs should be a well run club and he therefore shouldn’t need to protect any investment by a charge over the assets. There’s no real NEED for the charges to exist.

My biggest concern about the charges, and I know this is controversial, is that removal of the charges would give the fans confidence that the purchase of the club wasn’t financed by a bank that has taken a charge over the asset further up the chain. With the charges sitting there it means there will always be a suspicion over the financing of the transaction.

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My point is that removing the charges in HFC would not reduce the risk further up the chain. Ron does not own the stadium, he owns shares in the club and those shares are the assets that would be carrying any charge on Ron. If another entity held charges on ER it would be reported in the accounts - like you I haven't seen the accounts but no one who has has suggested that that's the case. They would also be registered at Companies House.

The point about having a charge over the stadium etc is that if the club did have to go into administration they are preserved by the holding company and can be retained for when the club resumes solvent trading. If the holding company is insolvent we're f****d whether or not the charges exist. In other words, there's more reasons to have them than not to have them.

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Originally Posted by cocteautwin

The potential problem isn’t the charge over HFC assets by Bydand it’s the unknown possible charge over Bydand’s assets by some party that we can’t see due to the secrecy rules of Delaware LLCs.

It’s the one black mark on HFC’s finances and in the current financial climate I think our supporters or HSL should be vocal about having the charges removed.

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Behave yourself. Bet you typed thag while queuing at Tesco to panic buy bog roll.

I'm confident in our finances and the financial decision makers in our club

Now is probably the time to offer a disgracefully low amount of money to Dunfermline for Nisbet if we still want him.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Now is probably the time to offer a disgracefully low amount of money to Dunfermline for Nisbet if we still want him.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Yip and hickey just to wind up the yams

We should put a low bid in for Morelos as well.

Then we can play him up front with Kamberi next season.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/51988937
A view from LD

Heard Fraser Wishart on Sportsound today. He’s hoping the government 80% contribution applies to footballers
One of the panel suggested, with part time players, can the day employer and the club both claim for the same person? Presume they are on PAYE at both employers

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Originally Posted by Billy Whizz

Heard Fraser Wishart on Sportsound today. He’s hoping the government 80% contribution applies to footballers
One of the panel suggested, with part time players, can the day employer and the club both claim for the same person? Presume they are on PAYE at both employers

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Don't know the detail of the system, but I don't see why not.

Edit: up to the £2,500. They wouldn't be able to claim £2,000 through either source and take away £4,000.

I'm sure I heard the 80% thing is being done though PAYE. If someone has 2 sources of income on which they pay tax then I'm sure the Inland Revenue will make sure the £2,500pm isn't breached.

I see Aberdeen are next to report proposed losses with no games being played, £5 million!!!!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52006599