HSL can't buy any more shares are there are none available.
Is a change of articles of association needed, maybe rebrand stating donations go into playing squad?
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HSL can't buy any more shares are there are none available.
Is a change of articles of association needed, maybe rebrand stating donations go into playing squad?
Did that come out at the meeting tonight BaldyQuote:
Originally Posted by Baldy Foghorn
Yes, shareholding diluted, no new shares can be boughtQuote:
Originally Posted by hibbydad
Sooner Official HSL comes on to give us a full indication on where we stand with percentages and the rest of it the better
I’m sure Jim will be on to tell us soon enough. Has he met Ron yet?Quote:
Originally Posted by Baldy Foghorn
HSL shareholding diluted?Quote:
Originally Posted by Baldy Foghorn
That is disappointing Baldy I really believe the way forward would be to allow more supporters to buy shares in the club
Ron said they met on Friday?Quote:
Originally Posted by tamig
Crap news.
Not possible at this juncture unless a new share issue occurs?Quote:
Originally Posted by hibbydad
Unless it's normal shareholders? Either way the fans own less % now than pre takeoverQuote:
Originally Posted by kevinc
HSL mandate/article of association was to collect monies to buy shares. Now no shares available do we keep donating for playing budget?
I heard what he said, down from around 37% to around 33% but never picked up on the bit where it was stated that HSL shares were diluted/reduced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baldy Foghorn
I think a rebranding would make sense - clean slate which I feel would get more fans involved.
The money was going there anyway. Like I said, we’ll need to await Jim’s announcement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baldy Foghorn
The number of shares HSL hold remains the same, however the total number of shares issued has increased.Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinc
Therefore HSL now has a lower % of the total shares.
Obviously diluted we need as many shares in supporters hands as possible including HSL I feel this is very disappointing
Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by CapitalGreen
Yes. I will anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baldy Foghorn
Was never about fan ownership for me. Not really bothered about that. Just wanted to contribute to the player budget.
Rebranding of HSl and maybe offer items more than just shares to entice donations to the playing budget. Shop discounts, for example.
Since452 it was all about having a decent percentage of shares to block a hostile takeover not total ownership
We still have 32/33% as long as the status quo remains. That would be enough to block anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibbydad
agree. A bit disheartened tonight if I’m honest. Will have to think very carefully on whether or not to continue my donations. I signed up for a shareholding vehicle for supporters to safeguard the club for future generations. Not a football manager’s budget (though that was a nice bonus).Quote:
Originally Posted by hibbydad
until we know who the large blocks held by nominee holdings are then we can’t trust them not to sell outQuote:
Originally Posted by Baldy Foghorn
Exactly the same as my thoughts :agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pagan Hibernia
This requires statements from the club and HSL tbh. Those fans that viewed HSL as safeguarding the club will have some fear over this. I'll be considering whether I keep donating. Not in anyway Jim's fault but HSL and the clubs collaboration with HSL has been poor at best. I actually think we've done well with donations considering there were no appreciations spoken about until recently which could be scrapped because of this - kit with names on it.
People possibly sacrificed something in their lives to help the club, I remember the whole thing about avoiding a coffee or two every month. Moving the goalposts on some key aspects such as fan ownership (safeguarding) should be communicated in advance or as swiftly as possible.
I made this point as soon as the takeover was announced. It was obvious to me that the current HSL model was dead in the water. Farmer was willing to dilute his share, but there was no way the new guy would pay all that money and just give a large share of it up for no personal gain. I hope HSL continues as a managers fund as I would be happy to still keep up the donations for that.
More still to be updated in this space from the club and HSL.
Collectively we’re at 33% - that’s a comfort and protection.
Supporter participation is very good and the intent is great.
Ron did say he was open to talks on this down the line - a supporter owned club or a club that has supporter ownership but has a majority shareholder. Big challenges (financial liability and decision-making) to being a supporter owned club.
More to come on this and looking forward to hearing it.
I dont want to judge until more is known, but it does seem both inevitable and a touch disappointing.
HSL is a noble idea, and I am a member as is my son, but it has always struggled and this seems like it's death knell.
Personally though, I would continue to support some form of funding for the club.
Me too, never want fan ownershipQuote:
Originally Posted by Since452
Yup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibeesforever
Clean slate.
Hibs membership and money goes to.. any of 1 of the 5 areas or all of them.
Community
Girls and Women’s team
Boys Academy
1st Team
Stadium improvements
Maybe the time is right to rebeand HSL as a members scheme with a few added incentives for joining and a continued guarantee that money still goes directly to the manager. I'd assume if the money is no longer simply buying shares there may be tax implications to a body handing money over to the club though.
It may also be an idea for HSL to try and encourage individual shareholders to gift them a handful of their shares to try and get them to a level of influence. How likely that is though I don't know.
I suspect that RG would prefer the HSL contributions to go towards developing the facilities at East Mains.Quote:
Originally Posted by City of Green
No chance. Money has to go to the 1st team, frankly I dont see many donating to Hibs to go towards 'community' or the women's team.Quote:
Originally Posted by City of Green
Just my take.
That’s where my donation would probably stopQuote:
Originally Posted by kevinc
Power I agree with a lot of that but there is a need to maintain a high percentage of the share capital in supporters names without it it being the majority shareholding. I would hope he would call a shareholders meeting outwith the agm to explain his plansQuote:
Originally Posted by Power
I don't think fan ownership was ever most fans intention/wish. However, HSL could've given us a collective voice on club matters, primarily on anything thay may threaten the club. As fans we have 33% but not under one umbrella which presents problems when it comes to communicating succinctly what we want for the club. It would end up a bit like a Tory leadership debate on a lot of things. Sad that we've potentially lost a means to have that collective voice. Before anybody says it - supporter reps don't provide what I'm talking about.
Very good post Mad HatterQuote:
Originally Posted by madhatter
people can set up a direct debit to the Hibernian Community Foundation as it isQuote:
Originally Posted by City of Green
I'll wait until there is an announcement from HSL about what their plans are, but I don't expect anything immediately as its board will need to meet to review its options first and preferably put those options to the members for us to vote on.
I'll keep paying in for now.
Mine too. I don't mind the extra I contribute going to the playing budget but I'm not subsidising yet more infrastructure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart93
Not sure that would sit well with me. So the fans are expected to stump up on top of their season tickets and everything else for improved facilities so that Ron Gordon can have the pleasure of owning a more valuable football club?Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinc
I was happy to do it before but we were getting shares in return. I’m not sure I’m happy to do it anymore.
The term 'managers budget' really needs clarification, now more than ever. What does that actually mean...1st team budget, youth budget, heart rate monitors, a new squat rack in the gym...
I'm being a little silly with my examples but for all I know this money might be going into things that I simply couldn't fathom. A link to the footballing staff at the club could be the deciding factor of what qualifies. I'll be honest I donated being relatively unaware of how the money was being spent. I read the sales pitch and thought why not...
Recent developments make me think if Ron has put a halt to HSL shares then he needs to continue putting money into the club himself. he cannot expect fans to pay for season tickets, food, shirts, scarves etc. and pay for a monthly rate to improve the squad. That's just in my opinion. If you exterminate hope of fan ownership or share issue then the buck stops with you. He is the owner.
Baldy FoghornQuote:
Originally Posted by Baldy Foghorn
As you know I was not at the meeting this evening and I am wondering if you perhaps misheard Ron, as this is not correct.
I understand that following last weeks announcement Ron and his family enjoyed the rest of the week in London following a very busy few weeks leading up to the announcement and that is why we were unable to meet until this week.
We will be writing to our Members tomorrow with a very positive update.
In the meantime could I echo Ron's comments and just ask for a little patience and please allow us just a little time to continue our discussions.
Jim Adie
Quote:
Originally Posted by hibbydad
Was as it said that there was no opportunity to buy any shares from the Nominee company’s share holdings ?
My thoughts exactly but expressed more eloquently than I was capable ofQuote:
Originally Posted by madhatter
In putting “a halt to HSL shares” he put £3.5m into the clubQuote:
Originally Posted by madhatter
Thanks Jim. I’ll wait for tomorrow’s message.Quote:
Originally Posted by OfficialHSL
Quote:
Originally Posted by Power
I am not having a go at you personally here, but I am again questioning the role of fan reps on the board if you do not know what the immediate future of HSL is following the takeover.
Yes, contributors were paying in to support the playing budget, but STF was gifting shares in the club in return and the whole project was explicitly about fan ownership.
If that has now changed then the basis on which HSL is collecting contributions is now incorrect.
It needs clearing up asap.
That is correct, I think the statement was “there is no more equity available for HSL (or anyone else)to buy” from Ron’s 67%.Quote:
Originally Posted by greenginger
Apologies Jim, thought he said you met Friday.Quote:
Originally Posted by OfficialHSL
Hopefully you can discuss a re-brand and we can invest for other things
I am not an HSL member or contributor, but I agree with you that there should be a statement from the Club about HSL and the future. Leanne up to now has been vociferous of her backing of HSL, but clearly the arrival of a new owner has turned the original strategy on its head. What is the aim of HSL now and what is the Club's postion? Doesn't sound as if there has been any forethought given to this before the transaction going through, otherwise there would have been an announcement.Quote:
Originally Posted by madhatter
Despite Leeann being a director of HSL. Disappointing.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Harp Awakes
Yes. I don't know how that translates into we continue to pay a monthly fee for nothing. No shares.Quote:
Originally Posted by CapitalGreen
This is still hypothetical until we know but imagine Man City fans being asked to pay a monthly subscription to improve the playing budget. It's an exaggerated example but still has its purpose. HSL was rightly initially advertised as a mechanism to help fund the betterment of the club through sporting achievement (better players etc.). It was also put across with sacrifice a coffee here and there and put some money a side for HSL each month. For shares in the club that's fine, for safeguarding the club that's fine. It isn't so fine when you've just had a millionaire buy over your club though. I think most people deserve their coffees again!
Clarification is needed.
Fan ownership is a myth. Our money helps supplement budgets, but we have no equity in the club.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Whizz
None taken. HSL and the club will have that covered ✅Quote:
Originally Posted by jacomo
Exactly the same for me. We still need to keep it going in another form (working title managers war chest) to make sure Ron’s investment doesn’t just keep us on level terms with them and the sheep.Quote:
Originally Posted by Since452
Look forward to reading it Jim. Will be good to get some clarification. Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by OfficialHSL
Clarification on what Ron's investment means from a footballing perspective is key as well. Imagine it all went to infrastructure...Petrie!
Hard sell asking fans to keep putting money into the club to finance player budget at the same time as infrastructure improvements.
So just because there’s been a change of ownership you would be prepared to stop contributing a few quid each month even if you knew the cash was going directly towards the playing budget?Quote:
Originally Posted by madhatter
I'd like to think that a good way forward would be some kind of rights issue to which HSL (and all shareholders, including Ron) could subscribe. That way each shareholder would have the opportunity to retain their holdings at the same percentage level by putting in more cash. Eg if Ron wanted to put in £2m personally, he could make £3m of shares available via a rights issue. If HSL and the other individual / nominee shareholders stump up £1m the status quo in terms of percentage holdings remains. If not, Ron's ownership percentage increases. Logistically it might be a bit tricky to fund the HSL portion of the subscription through monthly DDs rather than a lump sum payment but I'm sure it must be possible.
Good post Rocky the HSL part could be a problem but the rest of us could take up the rights issueQuote:
Originally Posted by Rocky
Potentially yes. What does playing budget truly mean? We are making an investment in our own way. I'm sure any investment made by Ron gets better substance than buzzwords. He'll know where his money is going exactly. If we are making donations and no longer get any shares or similar in return then we should get transparency on what the funds have been spent on. The change in model here should not be underestimated (if there is indeed one).Quote:
Originally Posted by tamig
we shall find out when Jim has further news. Club need to up their game if HSL are remaining, need to start creating/backing funding campaigns with rewards that do not hugely dilute raised funds etc.
No chance next thing you know we are diluted below 25% and in the lap of the gods again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky
This is exactly where I stand as well. I will seriously have to consider what I do now … if HSL had been launched solely as a way to put money into Hibs playing budget, or simply to help fund the club in all areas I would probably have joined anyway. But I was enthused by the thought of the club's supporters having a blocking vote and now that has changed … I cant help feeling let down by this to be honest insomuch as during the transfer of ownership STF and RP were clearly unable to persuade the new owner to continue with the sale of shares at least until HSL had 26%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pagan Hibernia
I understand from a post above that 33% of the total share issue is in the hands of supporters … but obviously spread amongst thousands of individuals and a few syndicates? that we know nothing about … We need to find a way to ensure that it ever came to the crunch all of these different entities are of a like mind when it comes to the protection and preservation of our club.
Maybe a place on the board as a gesture of goodwill?Quote:
Originally Posted by Baldy Foghorn
Unless it's a Ponzi scheme, I'll keep donating.
PS What's a Ponzi scheme.
Il still be donating.
Hopefully it's rebranded as a boost the managers fund set-up
I was fine with it as it was, i would really liked to have seen it get to 25%
However ron has pumped in millions, doing what HSL couldn't.
Im fine with that, especially as fans we have 33% combined. if it was ever needed im 99.9% positive every fan would vote the same way
HSL have said they will statement on Thursday so let’s see what comes out.
Expectations are that it’s a positive statement so fingers crossed.
Whether you are cool with this situation or not I think everybody must agree that we need some clarification as to what has gone on here and in my opinion this is the first test of whether or not Ronald Gordon will be prepared to honestly and openly engage with the clubs supporters.
It doesn't matter what the situation is now, the sale of shares in this football club was advertised by it as an opportunity for fans to have a 51% stake in the club, or at worst a blocking vote, and the presumption must be that fans bought shares and joined HSL on that premise … the fact that most probably didn't is utterly immaterial ... that's what it was sold to us as by Hibernian football club and now after spending hundreds, in some cases thousand, of pounds that is not what we are getting.
Just because the club has now been sold that does not in my view absolve its new owner from a responsibility to inform the clubs supporters as to why he has put a stop to the availability of shares, effectively turning what we were initially told into a mistruth … especially when the club itself helped to set up the main share purchasing group, encouraged participation in it, and even got the clubs players and manager to sign up to it. Not to mention that the CEO of the club AFAIK still has a place on the committee of that body.
Its not enough in my opinion for Ronald Gordon to say its a simple matter of him wanting total control of the club, he also has to say why one day fans having a say in the club was a good idea and now in his opinion it isn't.
In view of the fact that it is 100% certain that Hibs and Ronald Gordon will be extremely keen to see HSL continue under a different guise as a simple vehicle for people who love and care for this club to give it extra voluntary funding, its all the more incumbent on him and the club to explain this change of direction and to issue some sort of apology to the people who bought shares thinking it would give them if not a say in the club they love then at least the opportunity to safeguard it only to find out years and a lot of money later that this will not be the case.
I do not think that this is in any way an unreasonable request and if Mr Gordon thinks it is perhaps he doesn't know as much about the trials and tribulations of owning a football club as he thinks he did.
Spoke to James Adie on Monday saying nothing changing whatsoever with contributing.
I find it strange that there was no clear announcement on Day 1 regarding the HSL shares. If negotiations took as long as was stated then surely you would expect the topic of HSL would be high on the agenda.
By the sounds of things HSL werent even in the know regarding the sale of the club. Was that not one of the reasons why this was started to ensure the fans had a say in any new ownership?
I must of paid in between 500-1000 into HSL over the last few years and will continue to do so as long as we get a clear confirmation of what the money is being used for.
That's wrong. Their constitution was to collect money to purchase shares. That has now changed. They have to change their articles of assiciation/mandateQuote:
Originally Posted by Earlydelivery
Would have been good if Tom farmer had created enough shares and kept them separate for HSL to buy ( or even gifted them to us although I appreciate he’s done enough) so that we reached our 26% or whatever our target was as part of the deal with Ron.
Also it doesn’t matter where our future donations go as the club can just reduce the percentage going to the playing budget as they know we will make it up and would have no idea if it actually increases it or allows them to reduce what the club puts in and direct the funds elsewhere???
HSL was set up and organised to dilute STF’s shareholding in the club it was an agreement between us and him, I’m surprised it’s taken this long for people to realise that deal expired the second Ron Gordon bought him out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbo27
The only thing that requires answers is why it has taken HSL and Hibs this long to communicate with the fans who have been putting money in, it’s ridiculous to let speculation run rife on this issue at a time where we should all be gearing up for the big kick off, it also gives credibility to the moon howlers currently swiping away at the club over Ponzi schemes and loan facilities.
I haven’t signed up yet, but the strip push had tempted me but until I hear from HSL I’l be holding off, the communications from the club has improved tenfold over the years I really Hope now we’re not taking 3 steps back on that front
I imagine I am preachings to the converted here but it seems to me that our broader fan base has missed the bus as far as HSL is concerned. Various excuses, from misplaced distrust of STF, a pantomime like dislike of Rod Petrie and every conceivable made up objection. All the way through to stories of Ponzi scheme, have led to enough objectors to leave us short of the intended target that would have left us safe from aggressive takeover in the future. I firmly believe that STF has done all he can to pass us on to a safe pair of hands but what next?
We as fans have nobody to blame but ourselves. STF made enough new shares available for us to dilute his holding and to own a controlling interest of 51% of our club. But we blew it big style. We failed to come up to the mark. Nobody lives forever and STF quite simply had to move on. The new owner has different ideas on how the fans can contribute. The way I see it is that we can miss a new opportunity to take our club forward in a big way or we can get behind his vision and buy in to HSL for a new and forward looking future.
There is a new bus with a new destination waiting for us to climb aboard. Maybe those of us that can afford that little bit extra a month need to take a bit of a leap of faith and just get on board to see where it takes us. And let’s not forget there are many who do not have any more to give, “we are all Hibs” and we can all still enjoy the ride.
Great post. I’m going to keep my payments going. Anything that helps us finish as high up the table as possible is good for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by CentreLine
Not impressed by the dilution of shares. I suspect people may have had even less enthusiasm for buying shares/contributing to HSL if this had been highlighted as an inevitability the moment the club was sold.
For me any future fan based scheme to raise funds must come with cast iron guarantee that monies raised would go directly to the playing budget. Infrastructure has dominated the clubs finances for a long time, I’m not interested in funding it, I want a decent team on the pitch.
What is that based on? Considering RG talked openly on day 1 about improving those facilities via his new investment.Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinc
This is almost exactly how I see it, only reservation being the nominee holdings due to the questions around the reason they were being bought.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1875STEVE
Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
What are your reasons for being unimpressed with share dilution.Quote:
Originally Posted by superfurryhibby
Based on a comment that he made at a discussion with some HSA members last night, he spoke openly about a variety of topics including the club now being debt free, his values, how privileged he feels to be the servant to/custodian of the club, HSL contributions, developing plans over the next 30/90 days, improved communications, having the best Academy Facility we could have and many other topics. He was pretty clear that whilst he would invest in the Academy he would be looking for support from the fans in terms of a financial contribution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler Durden
If everybody takes up their rights, the percentage holdings will be unchanged.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibee_nation
Probably, best course of action is agree with Ron a number of new shares that can be issued and that can be taken up by HSL. Ron will want a floor on what his holding falls to so that he effectively controls and runs and makes the decisions about the club.
Couldn’t agree more. My contributions will continue and it’s disappointing to see so much negativity on this thread. Let’s just wait for HSLs comm coming out before speculating all sorts of nonsense. Jim said last night the message would be positive - maybe Ron has gifted HSL enough shares to takes us above the magic number 😀Quote:
Originally Posted by CentreLine
We already support the club financially. Would be a little cheeky to ask supporters to dig even deeper for an academy that is part of his vision for the club. Some supporters are fed up of cash getting ploughed into infrastructureQuote:
Originally Posted by kevinc
HSL money going into this new facility instead of player budget going forwards then?
There’s no hard evidence of that at all. Only one posters interpretation. Lets wait for the statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Heisenberg
100%.Quote:
Originally Posted by tamig
Was it explicit that the contribution from fans should be over and above attending games and buying merch?Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinc
Not trying to interrogate you here, just conscious that people can come away from a meeting with different interpretations of what was said/meant :aok:
Probably sensible to wait for an official update from HSL instead of speculating.
The thing is it was not inevitable. If we, the supporters, had taken up the offer we would have owned 51% of the club. We chose not to do that and so the shares were there for an outside bidder, in this case Ron Gordon. The only inevitable thing was that STF would have to move on one day. We were offered the opportunity to be in control of how that happened but we chose not to accept that offer in sufficient numbers. The negativity spouted on sites like this helped to ensure that failure happened. Everyone is entitled to their view and to do what they wish with their spare cash if they have any but we cannot then complain if we did not climb on the bus at the controls.Quote:
Originally Posted by superfurryhibby
As I said before, there is a new bus at the station with a different destination. We can now choose to climb aboard but this time we must have faith in the driver. It’s our choice. I for one want to be along for the ride and if it means subsidising people who can’t afford the ticket I am happy to do my bit. What I have more difficulty with is bringing along a small but vociferous bunch of moaners full of nothing but negativity.
No problem re your questions. He was asked directly what his ask of the fans was, his response was that our continued attendance and support, he also stated that the academy would require investment from him and the fans, no ambiguity. Possibly other attendees could provide their perspective, I felt that he was clear on the fact that he is looking for fans to make an additional financial contribution in order to deliver his vision.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler Durden
My take on it alsoQuote:
Originally Posted by kevinc
Ah well, here's one fan who would be happy if a separate Fund was established whereby supporters could make financial contributions which would go directly towards a Capital Project like the construction of a full size indoor pitch.
I've never had any interest in share ownership via the HSL scheme and I know I'm not alone.
Good post. Looking forward to some clarity but it's not like we haven't had a long time to invest in the club on very favourable terms and the HSL directors have done all they can to encourage us to invest. Hopefully, we are still able to build the shareholding with protections that it wont be diluted below 25%. Wake up call for us all now the security blanket of STF has gone?Quote:
Originally Posted by CentreLine
Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinc
:agree: He will put money in but will look to the support to "Pony up"Quote:
Originally Posted by Baldy Foghorn
I wasnt at the meeting but id assume that to mean fans 'contributing' as in buying season tickets, attending matches etc......but could be wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibbymac
the 'Pony Up' statement was specific to the Academy and separate from season tickets , match attendance , merchandise etcQuote:
Originally Posted by Gordy M
That’s how I see it as well mate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baldy Foghorn