I'm a lifelong Labour voter, but, having heard the crap coming out of the Tories this week, I am seriously considering voting 'Yes' in the referendum if that is going to be the future.
I'd be interested to hear other's thoughts.
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I'm a lifelong Labour voter, but, having heard the crap coming out of the Tories this week, I am seriously considering voting 'Yes' in the referendum if that is going to be the future.
I'd be interested to hear other's thoughts.
Just this week? :whistle:Quote:
Originally Posted by Miguel
I think more and more people are swaying towards a yes vote as the Referendum draws closer. A 'Yes' vote next year will ensure that we are governed by governments which the majority of people in Scotland voted for, which evidently isn't the case just now with the Tories in charge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miguel
Don't let the Tories be your sole reason for voting yes, there are many other more positive arguements for independence!
Saor Alba
I'll be voting no - in fact I don't personally know anyone (out of the few people I've discussed it with) who intends to vote yes. These things tend to work like that, you tend to hang around with people with similar opinions to yourself which can lead to a bit of an echo chamber forming.
Its a purely heart over head thing for me. I'm British and Scottish and I can't imagine being anything else. I'm proud to be British and Scottish. I was born that way and I'll die that way, a referendum can't change it.
Having said that my head says stay with the Union too. I think we'll be better off economically, be more stable and have more influence as part of the UK.
I would like change though. My own preferred solution would be to move to a federal model with separate Scottish, Welsh, N Irish, English (probably more than one English, maybe North, Mid, South and London) parliaments handling all local issues and a British parliament to deal with foreign policy, defence and serious crime.
IMHO the sooner we get the referendum over and done with, the better. I'll admit to being totally scunnered of the nonsense spouted by both sides. It's been a debate short on facts and full of pie-in-the-sky notions of the future.
I worked with all shades of party during almost 40 years with the Civil Service before I retired earlier this year.
The one thing that struck me about the Torys was they are totally money/profit orintated and would sell their granny to make a buck.
The financial argument must be then that Scotland makes a profit and conversely would be better off on its own. If Scotland was a drain on the UK economy they would get shot of us in the blink of an eye.
But for me its not about the money.
Why I do want independence is because I think it is utterly immoral for a country to be ruled over by another. I think it’s immoral for them to do so and for Scotland to consider itself too week kneed to take a position in the world on its own is shameful.
After 300 years it’s about time we left the foster parental home, one which we weren’t fussy to be in in the first place and make our own way. Grow up, fly the nest and act like a responsibly country.
It’s not like we don't have family; the UK; Europe; NATO; the UN et al that we can look to for guidance and make our own contribution and anyone who dares suggest that in a grown up world an independent Scotland wouldn’t be welcome in any of these is really just wetting their nappy.
I'm certain to vote yes. Fundamentally, decisions should be made as close to the people by people they affect as possible. There's
nothing nationalistic to it - I see it as a simple fact. I think both campaigns have been pretty dismal, I think the debate in the media is tilted an biased. I find some of the arguments totally spurious. I suspect it will be a no vote but I think more than enough people will vote yes as to keep it on the agenda. Then lets see what 4 years of Boris in number 10 and then a jingoistic In/Out EU Referendum does to those whose pencils waivered before crossing 'No'.
Other than that, Miliband is desperately unconvincing as opposition leader that he makes Cameron look good. And who are the LibDems?
My heart says vote yes but my head questions whether a Scottish Government can be trusted. When I think about the money wasted on the Scottish Parliament and the trams it makes me very nervous. Hundreds of millions of pounds on vanity projects meanwhile people like me haven't had a wage rise for 3 years because there's "no money" and care services are being cut everywhere. Still as long as the tourists are happy eh.
It's a valid worry, I think. However, independence doesn't heighten the risk of daft projects and public money being squandered, it just brings it slightly closer to home.Quote:
Originally Posted by EH6 Hibby
Looking at some aspects of Cross Rail, the Millennium Dome, the referendum on AV, the trident replacement, the recent controversy over the procurement process for a West Coast line provider which cost several millions, universal benefit entitlements and a couple of extremely expensive military misadventures in Iraq and Afghanistan and it's clear that the risk of politicians grandstanding with public money is very much alive and well within the Union.
The difference here is that the politicians could be made much more accountable.
This is the sort of stuff I've hated about the debate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
What country are we 'ruled over' by? Did that still apply when a disproportionate number of the Cabinet were Scots under the last Labour government?
You can apply this sort of thinking to any government. The UK government is hardly immune to cost overrun: channel tunnel, millennium dome etc. but sometimes even bigger waste doesn't make the same impact in the public consciousness:Quote:
Originally Posted by EH6 Hibby
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/he...abandoned.html
That pretty much sums up it for me. The UK is ridiculously over centralised and attempts to change that via devolution have just led to a lopsided mess where a parliament has legislative authority and the power to spend without the corresponding responsibility of finding the money. I'd be happy enough with devo-max and I still think that's where we might eventually end up but independence is preferable to me because we'd get control of foreign policy. There are still far too many post-imperial hangovers knocking about in London: see the gnashing of teeth over the UK's "diminished status" because they're not getting to be involved in an upcoming Syrian conflict. Have these people learned nothing?Quote:
Originally Posted by steakbake
Independence is for life, not just for Christmas. We get the power to shape our own place in the world going forward. If we don't like something or we want to do something differently, we will have the power to do it, not whine and moan about why we can't.
Try and find any small country out there that used to belong to a superstate and see if they want to rejoin.
The Yes camp seem to be making out this is a referendum on the Conservative / Lib Dem coalition at Westminster - that's why Salmond challenged David Cameron to a debate - he's trying to make it a Scotland vs. England.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miguel
I'd love to hear them. The Yes camp are always accusing Better Together of being negative but every nationalist I speak to seems to say the Conservative party are the sole reason for voting Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by HarpyHibby
Whenever the Tories are in power, we are ruled by a government we didn't vote for. That's roughly 50% of the time. 1 Tory MP in Scotland presently so not even marginal. If you take the Scottish vote out of every election since the War, the result would have been the same. We do not have a say in our future currently and are ruled by London and the south east of England. That is the biggest argument for Independence IMO. Scottish issues should be governed by Scotland to benefit Scotland. Yes we will make mistakes but will they be as costly as the mistakes made in Westminster? I'll gladly take that chance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beefster
Incidentally, in an independent Scotland, Labour would dominate and probably have a near monopoly on government. That's probably the biggest argument against independence.
I'll give you Holyrood, but the trams were saved by the Scottish govt from the diabolical Edinburgh council.And for every Holyrood a Yes voter could give a Forth Crossing...coming in under budget and earlier than planned.Quote:
Originally Posted by EH6 Hibby
I hate the way we're portrayed as a leech on rUK, how we should be grateful to be part of this magnificent global power with all the blessed baubles that come along with such honour.We'd not have the same standing on the international stage, we'd not be taken seriously by other countries or our impact on international matters would be diminished by being cut adrift from the power house of No.10.We're stronger together, we're safe as being part of a greater whole and the umbrella of security provided The United Kingdom.
So the questions have to be:
What impression does Scotland want on the international stage?Do we want to be sat round the table with Obama and Putin as they carve everything up?
Why wouldn't other democratic countries take us seriously if we were independent?Would we be seen as backward savages not worthy of trade?
What are we safe against that we wouldn't be safe against if we were independent?Would our 'safety' increase post Yes or decrease?
I hate how The NHS is being sliced and diced, I hate how we're forced to contribute to things like HS2,crossrail,Olympics,Thames water and refurbishing the palace of Westminster, but have to fund A90 dualing,Forth crossings,Commie games and yes,trams without any funding coming from London...none of that can be fair.
I hate how the majority of Scottish citizens are against nuclear weapons but we have them on our doorstep.
and one thing I would hope, is a strong OLD labour with the values Scotland values comes out of any yes victory, along with a Scottish conservative party too.
:confused: Not really seeing how you've arrived at this conclusion. Can you explain why ?Quote:
Originally Posted by AberGreen
Because the SNP's job will be done and I suspect they will not be the power they are now. A lot of people vote for them because of the common goal without really caring about other policies. If that goal is achieved, then their pull will be vastly reduced. The political landscape will completely change and I suspect there will be many new parties that will spring up all over the place and current minority parties such as the SSP, Greens etc growing. This will leave Scottish Labour as the major force. All speculation and conjecture at the moment though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Treadstone
Thought so.:greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by AberGreen
Good point, well made!Quote:
Originally Posted by Treadstone
I can only speak for myself. I've voted SNP for the last 20 years or so. If we were to gain independence, I will be looking a bit deeper at alternatives. I suspect many others will do likewise.
You don't deserve a pay rise.Quote:
Originally Posted by EH6 Hibby
You're right but then that argument could be applied to any region of around 10% of the electorate. When I vote in the UK elections, I understand that we go with the majority of the UK - just the same as when I vote in the Scottish or East Lothian council elections. The actual location of the government doesn't matter to me any more than it would if I was living in Shetland in an independent Scotland.Quote:
Originally Posted by AberGreen
Conversely, longer-term, an independent Scotland would probably have a far higher number of centre-right politicians too - especially if there were no ties to the Tories.
An interesting argument. If that were the case, why are Labour part of Better Together and vehemently not in favour of Independence? How self sacrificing of them!Quote:
Originally Posted by AberGreen
The devolution settlement was set up to ensure no one party ever formed a majority in Holyrood. It was designed to keep the SNP out. That has clearly worked well.
In the interests of balance and that an independent Scotland doesn't become some kind of socialist experiment, I hope you are right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beefster
In the short term though many of those centre right people might be from the conservatives. That brand will take a couple of terms to be less toxic - a bit like Labour pre-Blair (and post-Brown).
Someone else has answered the trams fiasco one so I'll leave that. The Scottish Parliament building was paid for by Westminster.Quote:
Originally Posted by EH6 Hibby
For examples of the Scottish Parliament looking after huge projects the current Forth bridge crossing might be a better example. Current estimates suggest its coming in early and under budget. I think the M74 extension was the same.
I don't get this at all: Scotland hasn't been "ruled over" by another country, so what's this immoral aspect you have introduced to the debate, and "them" - who on earth are "them"? Scotland is part of the UK - it is governed by a democratically-elected UK government - a government voted for by the Scottish (along with the rest of the UK) - just because "your" party doesn't win an election doesn't mean "you" are being oppressed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
Personally, I agree with BARCAHIBS - I think a federal setup would benefit the UK as a whole much better than the current London-centric situation.
Well, firstly you have to decide in your own mind if Scotland is indeed a country in its own right, or a region of the UK – like the North East, North West, but we’re even North of North so we get to keep Scotland as a name, North of North doesn’t have much of a ring to it anyway :greengrin.Quote:
Originally Posted by PeeJay
An ONS publication today listed the UK Regions as; North East, North West, Yorkshire and The Humber, East Midlands, West Midlands, East of England, London, South East, South West, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
Some people, as is their right, like Scotland to be a Region of the UK.
Legally Scotland is a Region of the UK as determined by the UK government and the capital of Scotland is London.
But Scotland has its own legal system, education system, its own NHS and is recognised as a country by the Commonwealth and FIFA among others. Historically it was a sort of country in its own right – what may or may not have been classed as a country 300 years ago isn't quite the same as now.
I like to think of Scotland as a country and as such England is also a country. Decisions on Scotland are being taken in a place where the vast majority of those making these decisions are not from Scottish seats. Even the Scottish Parliament is dictated to by Westminster by them determining the budget based on politics rather than what Scotland raises.
Incidentally, I have no party, never been a card carrying member of any party and normally tell anyone who comes to me door to bolt, unless I want to complain bitterly about how useless our councillors, MPSs and MPs are – the lot of them! :greengrin
Attending a debate in Wigtown tomorrow with Brian Taylor, I'm desperate to hear the "positive" case for independence.
For a number of reasons, possibly because I haven't clapped eyes on Salmond for a while :wink:, I'm much closer to voting for Independence than I have ever been. I'm not quite there, yet, and I'm just as likely to be pushed back again by some bigot's jingoistic anti-English rant in the run up to the electionQuote:
Originally Posted by stranraerhibby
The disgusting scenes at Ibrox and the picture of the 3 "British" soldiers displaying the Keep Ulster Protestant have only pushed me further towards the Yes camp. The prospect of ridding us of that with one little vote is highly appealing.
i also found this video very interesting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw_dVhy0Kqo
Voting yes, I really dont see any reason not to.
Always been an SNP voter myself (of course this isnae about any party or any person), and I will of course be voting YES. Here's hoping you and many others considering the idea will vote YES when the time comes, I ken a few that have changed their way of thinking and will now be voting YES.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miguel
I don't have a major issue with the concept of independence per se, but I cannot stand the SNP and the thought of independence under them scares the life out of me.
If the referendum was held tomorrow, I'd be voting 'no' and it would take quite a bit of persuasion for me to change my mind.
This isnae about the SNP or Alex Salmond, people need tae get that out of their heids, it's no about a party or a person. The vote is for independence no a government, the SNP winnae suddenly just become the government just because people vote YES. What makes you think the SNP will even exist post referendum should the result be YES. I've always voted SNP as I see them as a means tae and end, that disane mean even if they exist efter I would vote for them, in fact I disagree with them on a number of things but that's another issue. I would imagine the traditional parties would be around in one guise or another and most people will still vote according tae their political leanings for any Scottish government.Quote:
Originally Posted by FalkirkHibee
I've been an inactive member of the SNP for a few years. I'm up and about now supporting the Yes campaign, though. If (when - please!) Scotland becomes independent, I am not sure who I will vote for. I look forward to that dilemma! Bottom line is that there is absolutely no rule that independence means the SNP in charge.
Well, the last point you make is, at the least, debatable.Quote:
Originally Posted by AberGreen
The SNP won an absolute majority in the 2011 Scottish election. Can't remember the exact figures, but Labour way outperformed SNP at the Westminster poll the previous year. In an independent Scotland, I would expect the result to be closer to a Scottish election result. I would certainly expect the SNP to win the first post indie vote - win or lose.
A quick add: don't know if it was ever party policy, but the assumption used to be that, having achieved its aim, the SNP would dissolve itself, but I don't think that will happen.
My belief is that the SNP would hold together, at least for a while, and the leadership would tack to the right to try and assure the markets.
The SNP is a coalition and it would eventually split.
I have relatives who are SNP and view Salmond as a necessary evil to achieve independence and allow space for some sort of Scandanavian social democracy.
There would be no need to 'assure the markets' as the independence the SNP seek is in name only. Monetarily we would be yoked to the remains of the UK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miguel
I reckon the SNP would split up on issues like the EU and the monarchy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miguel
Always have been, and always will be a fundamental nationalist. I cringe every time I see an 'argument' that we will be £5 a week better or worse off - are we really that shallow?
Just one further point on a post independence Scotland, no party will dominate because we won't adopt the antiquitated fpp voting system. This will likely mean coalition or minority governments for the forseeable future.
...
Spot on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Desperate Dan
I'm from a traditional Labour voting family but will be voting YES for the opportunity to steer our own course rather than have our govt chosen by whoever the South of England votes in.
This is too big a chance to miss - Vote YES.
Definitely a Yes vote from me.
It is the most natural thing in the world for countries to run their own lives and I have always found it rather strange thst people in Scotland ask people from from another country to run their life for them.
It is far more than that though as once you control the levers of power you can then shape and mould society in a way the people of that country decide.
This is once in a lifetime opportunity to build a far fairer and equitable society with Scottish solutions to Scottish problems.
I have been quite impressed by the performance of the Scottish Parliament since its inception and I would be very much in favour to increase its power to that of every other normal country and Scotland would be a far better place for it.
I'd like to know if there are any SNP folks here who intend voting no next year?
aldo,Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldo
you really ought to start viewing SNP's agenda re everything above. With the exception of your Rosyth question, they've already all been answered by the party.
Definitely a yes from me too - the chance to declare ourselves an independent nation is one I hope we don't miss.
Even if the 'No' vote wins I personally feel that independence is inevitable - I hope I live to see it.
A yes vote makes perfect sense to me. Not sure tho if we will get another crack at this , due to the way our parliament is geared for no overall control, so i reckon we need to grab our chance.
I can understand labour not wanting us to go but for the Tories it's financial. If we were a liability , now or in near future, then Davie C would be printing scottish passports fairly sharpish.
.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibernia Na Eir
He has answered most of them by making the case for Devo max. Salmond has his ultimate goal ready to be reached out and grabbed and he has bottled it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibernia Na Eir
Currency? Best we leave that to Westminster to keep control of. Bottled.
Head of State. Let's base that in London. The fairer and more equitable society Independence will bring will have a figurehead decided by the hereditary principle. Bottled.
Defence? An Independent Scotland will take a clear and principled stand on Nuclear weapons by kicking them off our soil. We will however apply to join Nato so that we can shelter under it's nuclear umbrella. Bottled.
I don't think the SNP will disband if we vote Yes next year, there will still be a place for them in Scottish politics. Vote No and I reckon they will be ripping themselves to pieces for years with Salmond ending up generally reviled. I just hope that no matter which way it goes that the majority of us accept the result and move on without rancour.
Of course you're right, but many people hate Alex Salmond more than they love the idea of independence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Desperate Dan
It's up to the Yes campaign to get that out of folks heids.
interesting point you made on SNP if they win yes vote next year. I'm intrigued to see how they carry on under an Indy state. I'd like to hear their take on this.Quote:
Originally Posted by marinello59
The independence that the SNP win wont be set in stone. I support a republic, I would prefer a Scottish currency at some point in the future, and even though I support EU membership at this moment I could easily be swayed the other way.
I dont agree with the SNP's policies in many areas but they would not be the government forever in an independent Scotland. I would rather be going to vote in an election on issues like the above without the cringeworthy "vote us tae keep the Tories oot!" message being the only campaign message given.
For me, next year is about voting yes to the opportunity to set our own path rather than sitting in the passsenger seat of a car that is travelling in a direction I really do not like.
Correct, the independence issue needs tae be dealt with 1st. Like you I also favour a republic and a separation of currency/monetary control by the bank of England. If the referendum result is YES then I will vote accordingly efter that for which ever party best represents my views.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hainan Hibs
Agreed, I'm sure I mentioned on an earlier thread, my folks have voted SNP for years as the want independence, I know for a fact that if achieved my mum will vote Tory or similar and I think my dad will go labour (probably)Quote:
Originally Posted by Hainan Hibs
As for me, I'll go with whoever best fits my views at the time (and apart from Indy, the SNP don't currently fit)
First and foremost they would carry on as their attitude will be 'To the victor goes the spoils.' Where would their front line politicians go? They are now used to having their hands on the levers of power and that will be hard for them to give up. I reckon they will challenge Labour for the centre left vote by further wrapping themselves in the saltire and claiming to be the only party that has always put Scotland first.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibernia Na Eir
The Tories may have less problems. The agricultural community in the SNP's North East heartlands were solidly Tory until one of their own, Hamish Watt, won a seat. Salmond won his seat from the Buchan bulldog, Albert McQuarrie. Mad Mitch of Aden fame was an Aberdeenshire MP as well. Both bonkers but well loved up there. An Independent Scotland could well result in a big Tory revival. How ironic would that be?
Everyone seems to think everything must happen on day one after a positive yes vote.
What's the rush?
There will obviously be a day one situation but things like currency, defence et al don't need to be 'finalized' for day one.
An independent Scotland will be a small but very powerful nation in every way. We will be in a position to court our suitors.
As a wee pretend nation we're no bad, as an independent nation the world is ours to be what every other independent nation can be, but better because we're actually very good.
We have nothing to fear but our own limited ambitions.
I agree - i think there is an inevitably about independence now - much like devolution in 79. I suspect that there might be a narrow no vote now and a landslide independence vote in a generations time. The tories probably aren't as stupid now as they were then, so Devo Max is coming if we vote no.Quote:
Originally Posted by BroxburnHibee
This, not voting for independence because you don't like Salmond and the SNP is a bit like not buying a house because you don't like the wallpaper.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hainan Hibs
Are many folk against independence just because they don't like Salmond and the SNP?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiberlin
There's one in post 32 :greengrin Seriously though I ken a few, managed tae persuade one though what the vote is about and it's no Salmond or the SNP. I will be doing my best tae make others see what the real issue is and if they still choose tae vote no then fair enough. There are some people who really need tae open there eyes though and look beyond Salmond and the SNP, if that's their only reason for voting no it's a very poor one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beefster
Well done, Dan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Desperate Dan
Keep up the good work!
YES Scotland.
I am firmly in the NO/ Better Together approachQuote:
Originally Posted by Miguel
Please remember it's not Scottish independence versus eternally Tory and no longer being Scottish.
I agree that Scotland should make certain decisions about communities where national agenda does not fit. Drawing away from Britain entirely is not the answer as powers can be devolved whilst still benefitting from being part of Westminster (financially and being in a competitive political arena). I've always found it ironic that the Scots want independence so badly when it's the Scots using a large proportion of English tax payers money for free healthcare and free University.
I dislike the the SNP because they are too idillic. They have failed so many of their bigger pre-election campaign headlines such as dropping student debt. Now they are sacrificing a whole country based on forecasts of tourism and oil, of which neither are sustainable.
Only a few days ago SNP was caught out saying to the public that taxes wouldn't go up when at the same time he had published papers saying they WOULD.
A few people have spoken about the idea why should we be governed by a different country. If we look on it as Britain, we can fight it as one. It's about putting heads together have having more innovation and ideas. Personally I'd rather be imminent on the international stage than fighting a small cause for Scotland. As much as we hate to think of ourselves as "british", Britain have done wonders in the world, building up an image (some better than others- everyone has their view). I would rather put a £44 million programme towards strengthening healthcare in South Africa than a Scottish £3 million programme.
Looking at the Republic of Ireland, I don't think they have benefitted from independence. Prices have hiked up (perhaps due to the Euro, but not out of the question to cover all the proposed ideas the SNP have). Ireland have also become a hub for immigration, seen as an easy option for students and workers, as UK regulations are so tight. I fully agree with fluid immigrant but for adding skills value (and that works both ways).
Our memberships as an independent Scotland would also not remain. For example the G8, the BBC, guaranteed EU membership and being in the UK gives a greater voice to the UN and beyond.
If none of the above influences you, what about Nicola Sturgeons voice? That alone would put me in the NO/Better Together camp.
The Yes are desperate to make this a referendum on the Tory/Liberal coalition at Westminster and I'm sick fed up of hearing it. Salmond and co. should be answering some of the basic questions on an independent Scotland's membership of the EU and the bizarre scenario where a foreign country (BoE) would set out interest rate!Quote:
Originally Posted by HibeeEmma
I've always found it ironic that the ScotsQuote:
Originally Posted by HibeeEmma
want independence so badly when it's the Scots using a
large proportion of English tax payers money for free
healthcare and free University.
The Scottish Government gets a block grant from the UK government that is proportionately the same as English government departments spend on the same stuff. The Scottish Government just spends it differently.
It should also be noted that the money raised in Scotland is greater than is spent in Scotland so its quite wrong to ever suggest Scotland uses any proportion of English (Welsh and NI) money raised through taxation or any other government levies.
Do you have figures for this?Quote:
Originally Posted by HibeeEmma
It is noticeable that the Better Together campaign are shying away from the economic argument. They seem to accept that, financially, Scotland is self-sustainable.
I think its naive to suggest a wealthy, stable country like Scotland wouldn't be welcome as a member of any international `club`and perhaps not so bizarre on interest rates when the EU sets international interest rates for its members and that the UK interest rates are set within parameters set by the likes of the IMF etc..Quote:
Originally Posted by stranraerhibby
"Vote for independence, except for the important stuff that will still be controlled by foreign countries or institutions like monetary policy where we'll have even less say than we do now", no?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
We have a say now in that the Bank of England is The UK bank although that say is controlled by Westminster and Scotland is part of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beefster
If Scotland was to become independent and as part of the divorce settlement it was agreed Scotland kept the pound then as part of that agreement I suspect Scotland would have a direct input to fiscal policies affecting the pound.
As negotiations haven't even started only high level assumptions can be guessed at. At the end of the day Scotland might revert to the Groat!
No one can say anything definitive at this time, be it doom and gloom from the No campaign or all jelly and ice cream by the Yes team - and be right.
The only thing we can be sure of is that in the event of a Yes vote, the Edinburgh Agreement says the negotiations will be conducted in a grown up manner. Which would make a welcome change from some of the crap, front both sides, being flung about just now :-)
I fully appreciate what you are saying about figures, yet at the same time, I think it's difficult to forecast how an economy will sustain itself. For example would independence increase tourism or would visitors shy away from gaining another visa etc? We cannot predict that. Scotland would also have to take on some of the British debt and pay off while trying to spend on establishing an independent Scotland taking on millions for diplomats, passports. I suspect interest rates would increase due to new contractual payback agreements. The level of risk is unpredictable, whereas devolving certain powers allow Scotland to hold onto an extremely wealthy base (Britian).Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Meanwhile, would the average working man/woman's taxes be increased for this, "better independent Scotland", or else where is this money coming from?
Im not for a minute saying I have all the answers against independence but independent Scotland is far more complex than it's laid out. For example if we kept the pound, we wouldn't be able to set interest rate And the policy would remain at Westminster. Another point, if oil was sold at a high rate, domestic demand would potentially also suffer.
If anyone can convince me why my life would be better in an independent Scotland, I'm all ears.
Emma. Scotland already has a 10%* stake in the passport offices, Embassies, Consulates and everything else that is currently owned by the UK Government so the cost to an independent Scotland when taking control of these will not be a new cost - its already covered. This would also be the case for all the other government departments.Quote:
Originally Posted by HibeeEmma
And its not uncommon for countries to share Embassies so there would be no great rush to acquire buildings all over the world, 10% are Scottish anyway ;-) Its not inconceivable to think that many of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office employees are Scots who could move to service a Scottish Embassy.
* Rough and ready estimate taken from the Barnett Formula for ease of conversation.
I don't understand this state of mind. It's as if people want to break away but will clutch onto UK aspects such as having the same office.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
I would understand if Scotland's economy was streets ahead and our contributions to Westminster was holding us back but that isn't the case.
Attachment 11132
100% "no"
Sorry. My point is that in a grown up style divorce the separation needn't be the big bang, there's nothing there and nothing to replace it scenario. There are so many international 'projects' including in defence (thinking of the UK being able to borrow French aircraft carriers over the next few years as an example) where there are already close working relationships. To think Scotland won't still be a close pal of the remaining UK is, IMO, a bit silly - in the nicest way. Some would have you think Hadrians Wall will be rebuilt and electrified!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by HibeeEmma
No surprises about the chart either where Scottish economic policies are led by Westminster. The Scottish Government is really only responsible for 'domestic' spending as allocated by Westminster so the freedom to set policies that would affect the GDP are somewhat restricted.
Do you agree with me that the Yes campaign are trying to make this a referendum on the Conservative party?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
Quote:
Originally Posted by stranraerhibby
I know you didn't ask me, but as Jack seems to be otherwise engaged, I can't resist it - sorry, Jack! :greengrin
The fact that we will be saddled with a Conservative government more that half the time whether we vote for them or not is a very relevant point to be highlighted, but there is no way you can say that this is the Yes campaign's main issue. It is just one of many good arguments for looking after our own affairs.
Personally speaking I don't think it would matter who was in power at Westminster at the moment although with it being the Tories the SNP are going to take full advantage and I'd expect nothing less. Again, personally, I don't pay much heid ;-) to the petty sniping between the sides.Quote:
Originally Posted by stranraerhibby
The question of Scottish independence is not, IMO, about current politicians, petty party politics and other 'trivia'. Its way more important than that. Its about the future of the 'country' I live in and the future of this country for generations to come. Its the most important vote any of us have ever taken part in.
If Labour were in power in Holyrood right now with the Tories in Westminster, they'd be milking it for all it is worth.
As it is, they're in opposition in both places and in an uneasy collaboration with the ConDems in the no campaign.
And yet there's not a clamour for reunification, bizarre.Quote:
Originally Posted by HibeeEmma
Why do folk in favour of independence keep talking about Westminster as if it is a completely Scot-free zone? Institutions may be based in London but there are Scots all over the place and there is no bar to Scots being in positions of power. Just like there's nothing stopping someone from Shetland running things in Edinburgh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
What would be the motivations for the UK to give an independent Scotland a say in their fiscal policies? What would be the point of having a 10% say in a foreign country's fiscal policies anyway? It's not as if they're going to take the effects of decisions on us into account (which they have to do now).
Anything that unites the Tories, labour and liberal democrats screams BAD IDEA to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by steakbake
On another note, if we voted yes would we get back the £450,000,000 of Scottish taxpayers money that's going on London Crossrail? (Their figures)
I think the part you quoted by me and I have replicated below to save you scrolling, fully acknowledges Scots are part of the current process. It doesn't mean though the decisions made are in the best interests of Scotland.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beefster
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Originally Posted by Jack
Again and as quoted by you the motivation (reason) would be as a result of the negotiations that brought about the agreement in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beefster
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Originally Posted by Jack
You think that decisions are not currently made in the best interests of Scotland while we're a part of the UK. Yet, we'll be better off as a foreign country with absolutely no say over fiscal policy (which is what getting a 10% seat at the Bank of England will mean)?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
You seem to be saying that the UK will give us a say in their fiscal policies because we'll offer to do something that we want to anyway. The SNP have already said that they want to keep the pound. The alternative is the Euro (which would be crazy) or a new currency (which probably wouldn't be in our interests right now). It's not much of a negotiating position.
IMHO independence is one of these things that sounds magic as an abstract idea. Who could disagree with "Let's guide our own destiny"? However, the detail is either completely missing ("ach, we'll sort it out after we've decided") or falls to bits under a bit of scrutiny.
Yep, no appetite for unification north or south of the border.Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple & Green
Anyway, anything that unites the SNP with nutters like Sheridan and the SSP seems like a bad idea to me :wink:
How negotiations around fiscal policy and how much say Scotland would have at that table is an unknown but I'd suggest having someone there whose sole objective is Scotland is better than than no specific voice among the competing UK regions and government departments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beefster
If I were eligible to vote I would vote 'no'.
I am Scottish and British and always have been. Lots of families in the UK are made up of mixed 'nationality' and live in different parts of the UK from where they, or their parents were born. This has always been the case and for Scotland to suddenly sever ties with the rest of the UK (but then turn to another family - the EU) strikes me as strange.
Scotland is a modern and prosperous country and has become so while being part of the UK. As HibeeEmma said above -I have yet to hear an argument from Independence supporters which has actually convinced me that the benefits outweigh the risks. I also prefer the federal model (which I think we are on the path to at present and it should be left to run it's course).
I live in England, am Married to an Irish woman, and I want our children to feel part of Britain, in addition to their Scottish and Irish heritage. This is what many people who are Scottish who live down here think, and equally, all of the English people who consider Scotland to be somewhere worth living (despite being made to feel totally unwelcome by a bone-headed minority - I am ashamed when I witness or hear about it).
If Scotland leaves the UK then the UK is dead and that would be a terrible loss to us all.
The ties that bind us are far stronger than the gripes that seperate us.
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Originally Posted by IndieHibby
Okay, Scotland benefited by being in the UK while the empire was being built up, but that's literally history. Even then, though, it's not as if Scotland would have remained an 18th century country if it hadn't joined the Union! How did Denmark do it? Belgium? Norway?
Then take the recent past. We have been horribly under-served by the Union. Over the last forty years we have seen our wealth squandered big style. It is breath-taking just how wealthy a country we could have been. There's no point getting misty eyed about the distant past, or dreaming up all sorts of phantom dangers for the future. The only reliable reference point is what we have actually experienced in our life times - and we have lost out badly through being in the Union. Based on this, the risks of staying in it far outweigh the supposed benefits.
A federal system can only work with the agreement of the whole UK. There is no tangible support for it outwith Scotland. The only party supporting it is the Lib Dems. It is never going to happen.
Aye because everything was just dandy here under the Brits. But you are right, prices have indeed seen a modest increase since the 1920s.Quote:
Originally Posted by HibeeEmma
What is the issue with attracting foreign students exactly? They have to prove they are financially solvent before getting a visa, and contribute a ****load to the economy.
This a great little analysis of mainstream media coverage of the independence debate
http://vimeo.com/75851059#
I would respectfully suggest you would appreciate, through Mrs Indie, that a break from the UK isn't the end of civilisation as we know it. OK the South has had its problems, its GDP the last time I looked, fairly recently, was still higher than the UK.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndieHibby
How a grown up relationship can work is beautifully illustrated by the South, the only bit of the world outwith the UK where a passport isn't required by either side of the UK when traveling abroad. And that wasn't the most amicable of separations to start with!
If Scotland leaves the UK it will be no more dead than when Republic bid farewell.
Salmond boobed. He had a unique opportunity in that, unlike his predecessors, he knew exactly when the next General Election would be held. Imagine the scenario: The Tories win outright in May, 2015. The Referendum is held as near to Bannockburn Day the following month. There are lots of despairing left of centre voters who would think, 'sod it, I'm not putting up with five more years of those clowns.' They make the best of a bad situation and vote 'Yes'.
Not wanting to live under the Tories is a perfectly good reason to vote 'Yes'. It was 18 years of them that essentially gave us devolution after all, achieved, by the way by Labour and not the SNP.
No disrespect, but what people like myself need is facts to back up your points (in bold). Otherwise your statement is as misty-eyed as you claim mine to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Glory Lurker
It's precisely through Mrs Indie that I have an appreciation of just how bad things have been in the South over the last few years. If their GDP is higher than ours, then I would rather have our lower GDP than the problems they have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
Which tells me everything I need to know about how bare stats like that tell only the part of the story one wishes to tell. 'Twas ever thus!
And to compare (granted, it you didn't make the original comparison, but you ran with it) an independent Ireland with an independent Scotland is comparing apples with pears, in my opinion. The time, history, culture, varying institutions and connections between people just don't bear the same scrutiny.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
All I genuinely ask for is a compelling, fact based argument for changing the fabric of our country. I have yet to hear it. And yes, I am listening :greengrin
[QUOTE=Glory Lurker;3770206]Okay, Scotland benefited by being in the UK while the empire was being built up, but that's literally history. Even then, though, it's not as if Scotland would have remained an 18th century country if it hadn't joined the Union! How did Denmark do it? Belgium? Norway?[QUOTE]
Where did I claim that?
Indeed - and that works both ways. The fact that only a few years ago David Cameron and George Osborne were singing the praises of Ireland's economic policies (and holding them up as an example that the UK should follow) says it all. The political centre ground in Scotland is firmly to the left of where it is here.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndieHibby
IndieHibby (sorry, I don't know how to combine separate posts with "reply with quote"), as regards the first point about us being badly served by the Union, I was referring to what little we have to show for 40 years of oil wealth. It seems to be accepted that, had Scotland set up an oil fund in the '70s, like Norway did, we'd have billions set aside and no national debt (save for borrowing intentionally taken on to limit currency value). There's still plenty of the black stuff out there, though, so there is potential to go some way to righting that wrong.
Absolutely right, you didn't say anything about the empire. You'd talked about us becoming prosperous within the union. What I was trying to do was agree to an extent - had we not been in the union then we would not have had the benefit of the empire but, beyond that, I do not think you can say that being in the union is what has made us prosperous, as this would probably have happened anyway.
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Originally Posted by FalkirkHibee
Just catching up on this thread (1st while sober :D )
Some of the in-fighting between the various sections of the SNP has to be seen to be believed (pretty well hidden just now for some reason, but well reported in the past) ... They're sticking together purely on the independence label, if/when that's achieved the the SNP will fall like a house of cards.
I've also heard from a family acquaintance that Alex S is considering retiring after the next election if it's a yes vote ...... Never seen this reported or even mentioned anywhere but I did see it in that you tune video listed in this thread... Most likely just a rumour growing legs!
* you tube even ....... :-/
Why does a 10% seat on the BoE equate to NO SAY over fiscal policy? BoE is responsible for setting interest rates in line with the Government's inflation targets (i.e. - Monetary Policy). Why would an Independent Scottish Government having a seat at the BoE equate to NO SAY over Scotland's fiscal policy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Beefster
A 10% say is pretty much no say is it not if 90% believe and act a different way.Quote:
Originally Posted by allmodcons
The biggest problem for the yes vote is the uncertainty...no one knows what it will mean for a future Scotland nor how removing ourselves from a political union to join a monetary one is in any way 'real' independence.
SiMar's pretty much answered it already.Quote:
Originally Posted by allmodcons
10% means nothing when the 90% (i.e. the UK) decide they want to do something different. The only time it actually means anything would be when we agreed with the UK and they were going to do something anyway.