Christmas Light Switch on in Dundee

What a joke:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6915007.ece

:bitchy:

It's either political correctness gone mad or a rare victory for common sense. I cannot decide which, so enraged am I.

:crazy: Though I'm surprised they put "white" in the name.

---------- Post added at 10:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:11 AM ----------

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Originally Posted by blacksaltire

It's either political correctness gone mad or a rare victory for common sense. I cannot decide which, so enraged am I.

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How? It's for christmas (as we know it).

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Originally Posted by blacksaltire

It's either political correctness gone mad or a rare victory for common sense. I cannot decide which, so enraged am I.

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:greengrin

:Ummm:

'white night'

haha :greengrin


To stay relevant.... totally silly. :agree:

Disclaimer: To be read as tongue in cheek... but I think there are some interesting points here...

Maybe its use it or lose it...?

Christianity aint what it used to be if the falling attendances at Church are anything to go by. :wink:

Is there not an irony - the apparent lack of interest in religion yet try to mess with a "religious festival" and people are up in arms?

Lets face it Christmas aint what it used to be commercialisation all the way. Think about the children!!! Yes quite...

Religious festival well I understand from wee Frees I know (who dont celebrate Christmas) that its a Pagan festival anyway not a Christian one.

On reading this I read the Wiki entries for Christmas and Christmas controversy.

A bit Americanised, no not just Christmas the wiki pages :grr:


Happy Yuletide :greengrin

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Originally Posted by ArabHibee

What a joke:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6915007.ece

:bitchy:

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:agree: - Cooncil mental .. hence I bide in Angus :wink:

Utterly embarrasing. Where do these ****wits come from? Do people actually vote these aresholes into the council or are the just recruited by a HR department?

It's no wonder that the BNP pick up votes, they'll thrive on this type of ****.

People pay council tax to employ these idiots.

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Originally Posted by ArabHibee

What a joke:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6915007.ece

:bitchy:

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They have electricity in Dundee? When did this happen?

:confused:

:cool2:

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Originally Posted by Part/Time Supporter

They have electricity in Dundee? When did this happen?

:confused:

:cool2:

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A lot longer than St Johnstone has been around :greengrin

Nothing sinister. Just some marketing guy trying to expand the market demographic by not discriminating on what bronze age myths you believe in.

Oh and Christmas is much much much older than Jesus.

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Originally Posted by hibbytam

Nothing sinister. Just some marketing guy trying to expand the market demographic by not discriminating on what bronze age myths you believe in.

Oh and Christmas is much much much older than Jesus.

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Erm :Ummm:

That's just silly.

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Originally Posted by Peevemor®

Erm :Ummm:

That's just silly.

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December 25th was originally celebrated as a Pagan festival.

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Originally Posted by Betty Boop

December 25th was originally celebrated as a Pagan festival.

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That was the winter solstice and Constantine moved Christmas to coincide with it, but to say Christmas predates Christ is, as I said, just silly.

Yes, let's face facts, Christmas for 90% of us remains the pagan festival it's always been, in spite of the best efforts of those god-bothering goons to appropriate it and inject their odious and hypocritical piety into the proceedings.

When I'm sitting down to my turkey and drinking the contents of my cellar and watching a decent movie, I certainly won't be thinking about a daft hippie daddies boy who probably didn't actually exist outside of the fantasies of the local drug addicts and community care cases of the time.

It's not a surprise to me in the slightest, it's the way this country is going.

Children are taught about, and actively encouraged to embrace, Diwali, Eid and Ramadan, but just don't mention Christmas, kids, it might offend people who aren't Christians. That's to be called a "Winter Festival" instead.

It's all in the name of multiculturalism and diversity, apparently. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Part/Time Supporter

They have electricity in Dundee? When did this happen?

:confused:

:cool2:

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And two Universities. Perth has a prison - and not a lot else :cool2:

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Originally Posted by The_Quiet_Man

:agree: - Cooncil mental .. hence I bide in Angus :wink:

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Hence why I bide in Perthshire! :wink:


Thinks its just a sad state of affairs when they start doing stuff like this.

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Originally Posted by Peevemor®

That was the winter solstice and Constantine moved Christmas to coincide with it, but to say Christmas predates Christ is, as I said, just silly.

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:faf:

Are you sure? :wink:

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Originally Posted by Jack

:faf:

Are you sure? :wink:

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I think there's a clue in the name somewhere. :hmmm:

But surely Christ was only called Christ because he was born on Christmas Day? :dunno:

































:stirrer:

:greengrin

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Originally Posted by FalkirkHibee

It's not a surprise to me in the slightest, it's the way this country is going.

Children are taught about, and actively encouraged to embrace, Diwali, Eid and Ramadan, but just don't mention Christmas, kids, it might offend people who aren't Christians. That's to be called a "Winter Festival" instead.

It's all in the name of multiculturalism and diversity, apparently. :rolleyes:

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I bet nobody from the Muslim, Sikh, Hindu or Jewish community complained to Dundee Council about the name of their festival.

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Originally Posted by The_Quiet_Man

And two Universities. Perth has a prison - and not a lot else :cool2:

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Is it not really just one University and a Polytechnic that's been allowed to change it's name?

:devil:

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Originally Posted by FalkirkHibee

It's not a surprise to me in the slightest, it's the way this country is going.

Children are taught about, and actively encouraged to embrace, Diwali, Eid and Ramadan, but just don't mention Christmas, kids, it might offend people who aren't Christians. That's to be called a "Winter Festival" instead.

It's all in the name of multiculturalism and diversity, apparently. :rolleyes:

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To take a slightly contrary position, there is a mix up here of religion, christmas and the christmas holiday.

Festive lights, Santa, trees, cards, turkeys - either no link or only the most tenuous link to christianity. What the council have done is give what is now an almost completely unreligious festival undue credibility by being wilfully stupid. The time of the year is known universally (in the West at least) as Christmas. New Year is New Year, Easter is Easter.

Your extension of this stupidity to the wider "issues" you refer to is wrong, unpleasant and unfounded.

I love how the church voted to express concern.

Nothing like taking the hard line with the council guys.:grr:

"A council spokesman said, “The proposal for the Winter Night Light celebration was approved unanimously at a meeting of the city development committee on Monday, August 24.
“The report (submitted to the committee) explained that the Christmas lights will also be switched on for the first time for the event.”
The spokesman said the event will take place across the city centre, with activities at four venues to encourage people to move between them.
“As has been seen with the injuries at the Christmas lights switch-on in Birmingham, large groups of people congregating in one area can present safety issues for the public,” he said."

So Dundee City Council can see into the future and predicted the problems that happened in Birmingham at the weekend? What a bunch of muppets and a crap excuse for changing a well attended event.

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Originally Posted by Betty Boop

I bet nobody from the Muslim, Sikh, Hindu or Jewish community complained to Dundee Council about the name of their festival.

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Didn't complain about the name of what festival? Sorry if I'm being thick here.

If you're saying what I think you're saying, which is that most people from minority faiths aren't offended in the slightest by the mention, or celebration, of Christmas then I agree completely with you. I don't think Muslims, Sikhs, Jews etc. are offended by Christmas.

Which just makes things like this even more ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by FalkirkHibee

Didn't complain about the name of what festival? Sorry if I'm being thick here.

If you're saying what I think you're saying, which is that most people from minority faiths aren't offended in the slightest by the mention, or celebration, of Christmas then I agree completely with you. I don't think Muslims, Sikhs, Jews etc. are offended by Christmas.

Which just makes things like this even more ridiculous.

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And what of it if they are offended by it? Why does this country pander so much to minorities? :confused:

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Originally Posted by ArabHibee

And what of it if they are offended by it? Why does this country pander so much to minorities? :confused:

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:faf:

You in the mood tonight ?:greengrin

The UK is still perceived to be a Christian country, the default setting should be that we openly celebrate Christian festivals.
Maybe we're not?

Is Jesus that old man with the white beard and red coat? He seems to get everywhere at Xmas, it's PC gone mad.

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Originally Posted by FalkirkHibee

It's not a surprise to me in the slightest, it's the way this country is going.

Children are taught about, and actively encouraged to embrace, Diwali, Eid and Ramadan, but just don't mention Christmas, kids, it might offend people who aren't Christians. That's to be called a "Winter Festival" instead.

It's all in the name of multiculturalism and diversity, apparently. :rolleyes:

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Is Scotland not one nation many cultures? Not too sure what you mean with the last bit - do you think multiculturalism and diversity are a bad thing?

Hopefully not I think Scotland would benefit from more Scots born living outside of our country for a while, seeing how others live and how they see us.

Too much ignorance and you get the consequences of George W Bush actions...

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Originally Posted by FalkirkHibee

It's not a surprise to me in the slightest, it's the way this country is going.

Children are taught about, and actively encouraged to embrace, Diwali, Eid and Ramadan, but just don't mention Christmas, kids, it might offend people who aren't Christians. That's to be called a "Winter Festival" instead.

It's all in the name of multiculturalism and diversity, apparently. :rolleyes:

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What do you mean 'the way this country's going'?

You're also saying that kids aren't taught about christmas?? I honestly can't believe how little you rely on facts when you post. It's like you've cut a branch off a tree, and want to make a spear of nonsense. In order to do this you set about whittling off all the shoots of fact that were emerging from your spear of nonsense to make it more aerodynamic for when you throw it into the torso of secularism.

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Originally Posted by Betty Boop

I bet nobody from the Muslim, Sikh, Hindu or Jewish community complained to Dundee Council about the name of their festival.

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Exactly. It's dim witted Councillors reacting to offence that hadn't (and most likely wouldn't have) been taken in the first place.

"I think", "I bet"...

Does anyone know anyone from the communities mentioned (e.g. Muslim, Sikh, Hindu or Jewish community)? Even so unlikely to be representative but closer perhaps than other speculation?

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Originally Posted by The_Quiet_Man

And two Universities. Perth has a prison - and not a lot else :cool2:

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Perth needs a prison to hold all those Dundee folk nicking stuff from their neighbours.

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Originally Posted by jonty

A lot longer than St Johnstone has been around :greengrin

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SJFC - 1884 / 1885 (bit of a dispute re that, officially formed in 1884 but didn't start playing for a while, a bit like the Yams or Celtc)
DFC - 1893
DUFC - 1909 / 1923 (depending on whether you count Dundee Hibs)

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Originally Posted by BravestHibs

What do you mean 'the way this country's going'?

You're also saying that kids aren't taught about christmas?? I honestly can't believe how little you rely on facts when you post. It's like you've cut a branch off a tree, and want to make a spear of nonsense. In order to do this you set about whittling off all the shoots of fact that were emerging from your spear of nonsense to make it more aerodynamic for when you throw it into the torso of secularism.

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Wow. :top marks

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Originally Posted by marinello59

Exactly. It's dim witted Councillors reacting to offence that hadn't (and most likely wouldn't have) been taken in the first place.

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I think a lot of the extremities of political correctness come about because people take it on themselves to decide what will offend other people. On top of that we have a group of people whose careers depend on evening out inequalities.

They have to constantly find new things to correct or they are out of a job. I can see comparisons to health promotion - where do all the anti-smoking commisars go now that they have got their way? They move onto alcohol and obesity.

All of these things start with the best of intentions. Unfortunately you then bring in people who, although they know the rules, don't know what they are trying to achieve.

On the other side of the fence you have those who never wanted the rules in the first place, because the world was a great place to be (for them) and why change anything. Add into the mix people who just hate any form of change.

I think that all this defending "our christian values" is just so much nonsense. Ever since I was little, people have been saying "put christ back into christmas". Maybe a regression to a pre-christian definition of the winter solstice is more honest.

From what I can see, most people's christianity is attending church for six weeks prior to their wedding, and the occasional drunken foray to a watchnight service. To me, christmas seems to be a celebration of things christ stood against - greed, selfishness, retreating into the comfort of your own family with no regard for anyone else.

If christianity has lost it's audience in this country, why not remove it from the schedules? At least other religions have retained spirituality in their portfolio. If the best Jesus can hope for is Christmas, the game is lost. (How many of the cards you'll send or recieve this year have any sort of biblical or spiritual theme to them?)

Sorry to bring religion into it by the way.

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Originally Posted by loko

"I think", "I bet"...

Does anyone know anyone from the communities mentioned (e.g. Muslim, Sikh, Hindu or Jewish community)? Even so unlikely to be representative but closer perhaps than other speculation?

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I have Muslim friends who enjoy the Xmas and New Year festivities.

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Originally Posted by Part/Time Supporter

Perth needs a prison to hold all those Dundee folk nicking stuff from their neighbours.

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How do these poor Dundonians make it to Perf and back with stolen merchandise? :cool2:

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Originally Posted by BravestHibs

What do you mean 'the way this country's going'?

You're also saying that kids aren't taught about christmas?? I honestly can't believe how little you rely on facts when you post. It's like you've cut a branch off a tree, and want to make a spear of nonsense. In order to do this you set about whittling off all the shoots of fact that were emerging from your spear of nonsense to make it more aerodynamic for when you throw it into the torso of secularism.

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:top marks

I notice that the thrower of the nonsense spear has gone very quiet.

Aplogies - :hijack:

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Originally Posted by Part/Time Supporter

Perth needs a prison to hold all
those Dundee folk nicking stuff from their neighbours.



SJFC - 1884 / 1885 (bit of a dispute re that, officially formed in 1884 but didn't start playing for a while, a bit like the Yams or Celtc)
DFC - 1893
DUFC - 1909 / 1923 (depending on whether you count Dundee Hibs)

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http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_discov...icity_and_when

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Mentions of electricity have been found in writings as early as 600BC by the Greek Thales of Miletus.

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:greengrin or as TQM would do.... :cool2:


Getting back on topic - I see the lights areon. Assume it's for testing then?

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Originally Posted by The_Quiet_Man

How do these poor Dundonians make it to Perf and back with stolen merchandise? :cool2:

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In the back of a prison service van, I would imagine

:faf:

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Originally Posted by Part/Time Supporter

In the back of a prison service van, I would imagine

:faf:

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So they get lifted in Dundee with the gear .. Perf Polis must be framing them! :greengrin

Wid they eat fehv pehs in Pairth or are they too posh?

(Non Tayside contribution to thread).

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Originally Posted by FalkirkHibee

It's not a surprise to me in the slightest, it's the way this country is going.

Children are taught about, and actively encouraged to embrace, Diwali, Eid and Ramadan, but just don't mention Christmas, kids, it might offend people who aren't Christians. That's to be called a "Winter Festival" instead.

It's all in the name of multiculturalism and diversity, apparently. :rolleyes:

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As stupid as it is, it's almost worth it as a noise-up to people who think like this.

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Originally Posted by The_Quiet_Man

How do these poor Dundonians make it to Perf and back with stolen merchandise? :cool2:

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In the cars they nick fae posh Monifieth or Ferry folk. :greengrin

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Originally Posted by loko

Is Scotland not one nation many cultures? Not too sure what you mean with the last bit - do you think multiculturalism and diversity are a bad thing?

Hopefully not I think Scotland would benefit from more Scots born living outside of our country for a while, seeing how others live and how they see us.

Too much ignorance and you get the consequences of George W Bush actions...

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If you're asking me if I think that people of different cultures living in Scotland/UK is a bad thing then the answer to that is no. Although I do think that the situation in some places in England has gone too far.

However, I don't agree with the way that issues such as multiculturalism are handled in this country. I think it is leading to scenarios like the one in that newspaper link in the opening post, whereby anything related to Christianity is being treated like some sort of taboo subject, whereas anything to do with other religions, especially Islam, are given the utmost respect and are openly embraced.

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Originally Posted by BravestHibs

What do you mean 'the way this country's going'?

You're also saying that kids aren't taught about christmas?? I honestly can't believe how little you rely on facts when you post. It's like you've cut a branch off a tree, and want to make a spear of nonsense. In order to do this you set about whittling off all the shoots of fact that were emerging from your spear of nonsense to make it more aerodynamic for when you throw it into the torso of secularism.

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You are putting words in my mouth. I did not say that kids aren't taught about Christmas, I said that they are taught about, and encouraged to embrace, festivals such as Eid, Ramadan and Diwali but when it comes to Christmas, or Christianity in general, people don't seem to be quite as quick to embrace it publicly because people on councils, usually atheists, believe that it will somehow offend people of minority faiths.

You only have to look at the recent case of homosexuals, bisexuals and transsexuals being encouraged to deface a copy of the Bible by writing vulgar messages inside it, all of which was publicly funded and partly organised by Glasgow City Council.

There is a not a chance that something like that would have happened with the sacred text of a minority religion. The organisers would have probably been murdered if those messages had been written inside a copy of the Qur'an.

All of that was done in the name of "diversity" as well, by the way. Anyone else see a trend developing here?

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Originally Posted by Tinyclothes

:top marks

I notice that the thrower of the nonsense spear has gone very quiet.

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I'm sorry, I didn't realise that there was a time limit for responding to posts.

Please accept my apologies, it won't happen again.

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Originally Posted by FalkirkHibee

I'm sorry, I didn't realise that there was a time limit for responding to posts.

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There's not. You can post whenever the hell you like, so long as everyone's back from Hamilton.

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Originally Posted by FalkirkHibee

You are putting words in my mouth. I did not say that kids aren't taught about Christmas, I said that they are taught about, and encouraged to embrace, festivals such as Eid, Ramadan and Diwali but when it comes to Christmas, or Christianity in general, people don't seem to be quite as quick to embrace it publicly because people on councils, usually atheists, believe that it will somehow offend people of minority faiths.

Where do you get your information? Are you implying that countrywide, councils are trying to keep christmas a secret, via a manifestation of a crazed atheist agenda, by draping every town in the UK with a garish light display?

You only have to look at the recent case of homosexuals, bisexuals and transsexuals being encouraged to deface a copy of the Bible by writing vulgar messages inside it, all of which was publicly funded and partly organised by Glasgow City Council.

I'll give you christians one thing, you guys are not hypocritical when it comes to your overt homophobia.

There is a not a chance that something like that would have happened with the sacred text of a minority religion. The organisers would have probably been murdered if those messages had been written inside a copy of the Qur'an.

Right I see, so lunatic right wing christians like you, Donald Rumsfeld and George W Bush are TOLERANT not vindictive, little close minded bigots. I'm glad we got to the bottom of that because here was me labouring under the misapprehension that you were the latter, when actually, you are the former.

All of that was done in the name of "diversity" as well, by the way. Anyone else see a trend developing here?

And we'd hate to see those 'coloureds' getting a foothold in our society now wouldn't we?
Just out of interest, even if there was as much hoo haa about ramadan as there was about christmas, why would that bother you so much, doesn't islam have as much right to worship as any other faith, or would you also like to see the dismantling of those loony liberal mandates called 'Human Rights'? Or maybe just for Muslims?
.

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.

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Originally Posted by FalkirkHibee

If you're asking me if I think that people of different cultures living in Scotland/UK is a bad thing then the answer to that is no. Although I do think that the situation in some places in England has gone too far.

However, I don't agree with the way that issues such as multiculturalism are handled in this country. I think it is leading to scenarios like the one in that newspaper link in the opening post, whereby anything related to Christianity is being treated like some sort of taboo subject, whereas anything to do with other religions, especially Islam, are given the utmost respect and are openly embraced.

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I'm not sure what world you live in.

http://enemiesofreason.blogspot.com/...mber-this.html

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Originally Posted by FalkirkHibee

If you're asking me if I think that people of different cultures living in Scotland/UK is a bad thing then the answer to that is no. Although I do think that the situation in some places in England has gone too far.

However, I don't agree with the way that issues such as multiculturalism are handled in this country. I think it is leading to scenarios like the one in that newspaper link in the opening post, whereby anything related to Christianity is being treated like some sort of taboo subject, whereas anything to do with other religions, especially Islam, are given the utmost respect and are openly embraced.

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Utter nonsense, both in your interpretation of the newspaper article and your wild belief that islam is embraced.

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Originally Posted by FalkirkHibee

You are putting words in my mouth. I did not say that kids aren't taught about Christmas, I said that they are taught about, and encouraged to embrace, festivals such as Eid, Ramadan and Diwali but when it comes to Christmas, or Christianity in general, people don't seem to be quite as quick to embrace it publicly because people on councils, usually atheists, believe that it will somehow offend people of minority faiths.

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Have you any idea how moronically stupid that sentence is? Could you show me where you get your evidence (not anecdotes) that this army of cooncilmen atheists are plotting to avoid offending religions other than Christianity?

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Originally Posted by FalkirkHibee

You only have to look at the recent case of homosexuals, bisexuals and transsexuals being encouraged to deface a copy of the Bible by writing vulgar messages inside it, all of which was publicly funded and partly organised by Glasgow City Council.

There is a not a chance that something like that would have happened with the sacred text of a minority religion. The organisers would have probably been murdered if those messages had been written inside a copy of the Qur'an.

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Untitled 2009 was proposed by the Metropolitan Community Church, a group which is an “inclusive Christian ministry to the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered communities.” Their intention of the work was for “gallery visitors [to] suggest ways in which the Bible could be ‘reclaimed as a sacred text.
Link.
Presumably the wrong type of christian in your eyes?

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Originally Posted by FalkirkHibee

All of that was done in the name of "diversity" as well, by the way. Anyone else see a trend developing here?

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Erm, no, it wasnt. You are mixing up so many moral outrages here it beggars belief.

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Originally Posted by Filled Rolls

I can see where people get the idea that there is a "rainbow alliance" full of disparate groups - all of whom have a grievance against society, but who have nothing else in common.

Just have a look at the rag tag rent-a-mob who show up at demonstrations. So often you find that they have no personal interest in the protest, rather that they are professional protestors.

The one that summed it up to me was when there was a request to put Tibetan prayer flags on Calton Hill. It just seemed to me that anything was acceptable as long as it was from somewhere else. Because, let's face it, this ain't Tibet, and I'm not aware of a large Tibetan community in Edinburgh.

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I hadnt heard (or forgotten about) this. So I looked it up.

Actually, it has nothing to do with imposing Tibetan prayer flags or culture on Calton Hill. It was one architect's rather banal and twee idea for finishing the Disgrace.

You last paragraph is pointless. You're trying to make a point about the blanket acceptance of "foreign culture" using something that didnt happen as an example!

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Originally Posted by TwoCarpets

I hadnt heard (or forgotten about) this. So I looked it up.

Actually, it has nothing to do with imposing Tibetan prayer flags or culture on Calton Hill. It was one architect's rather banal and twee idea for finishing the Disgrace.

You last paragraph is pointless. You're trying to make a point about the blanket acceptance of "foreign culture" using something that didnt happen as an example!

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I accept that, happy to stand corrected.

In fact, I'm going to delete that misleading post, as that's the way that rumours start off.

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Originally Posted by Betty Boop

I have Muslim friends who enjoy the Xmas and New Year festivities.

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There's plenty of Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs down Great Junction Street who enjoy Xmas, counting what's in the till. :greengrin

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Originally Posted by Filled Rolls

There's plenty of Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs down Great Junction Street who enjoy Xmas, counting what's in the till. :greengrin

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This is so true! :greengrin

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Originally Posted by Filled Rolls

In fact, I'm going to delete that misleading post, as that's the way that rumours start off.

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Is it? I didn't know. Where did you hear that? :dunno:

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Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

Is it? I didn't know. Where did you hear that? :dunno:

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A bloke in the pub told me.

Nice thread!!

Am I the only one that really doesn't make a connection between naming a light ceromony a Winter White ( or Light depending on what part of the article is correct) Night and attacking the sanctity of Christmas.....let's be honest those people who hold a religious belief about Christmas will no doubt already be appaled that the day has been hijacked for an excuse to put lights all over the place in order to encourage people to shop and spend more anyway. So it could possibly be argued that changing the name of such events actually protects the name of Christmas and prevents it from being used for comercial gain!!


It's also rather bizzare to say that there is some concerted movement to deny that Christmas exists as a religious festival and even more bizzare to say that kids don't know about it or are somehow not being taught it compared to other religious events. I can assure you any child I know is well aware of Christmas has little or no idea of what Ramadan might be and no amount of toy town councillors are going to change that!


Finally I can think of nothing more off putting that going along to see the towns winter light display and then having to suffer a talking to from the local minister!!

I just hope no one mistakes it for white knights!

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Originally Posted by SiMar

Nice thread!!

Am I the only one that really doesn't make a connection between naming a light ceromony a Winter White ( or Light depending on what part of the article is correct) Night and attacking the sanctity of Christmas.....let's be honest those people who hold a religious belief about Christmas will no doubt already be appaled that the day has been hijacked for an excuse to put lights all over the place in order to encourage people to shop and spend more anyway. So it could possibly be argued that changing the name of such events actually protects the name of Christmas and prevents it from being used for comercial gain!!


It's also rather bizzare to say that there is some concerted movement to deny that Christmas exists as a religious festival and even more bizzare to say that kids don't know about it or are somehow not being taught it compared to other religious events. I can assure you any child I know is well aware of Christmas has little or no idea of what Ramadan might be and no amount of toy town councillors are going to change that!


Finally I can think of nothing more off putting that going along to see the towns winter light display and then having to suffer a talking to from the local minister!!

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All you have to do is look at the Christmas cards on display in any house. You'll be hard pushed to find a nativity scene, or religious message amongst the cuddly dogs dressed up as Santa with a tankard of beer in their hand.

Maybe Dumpdee (only joking folks), should have called their winter festival White Lightning, it would be a more appropriate reflection of Xmas revelries.

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Originally Posted by Peevemor®

That was the winter solstice and Constantine moved Christmas to coincide with it, but to say Christmas predates Christ is, as I said, just silly.

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I meant the previous festivals that had been re-named to fit the christians. But then I wouldn't have reeled anyone in that way...
Basically my point was that the middle of winter has understandably been celebrated in northern Europe especially since humans started farming here. It's name is not important.

I just like the days off and a rare chance to see my family and put my feet up from my ridiculously busy job when the winter is at it's darkest.

All the religious stuff, the materialism and search for meaning of it is peripheral. You can call it what you like or interpret it how you feel you need to.

I'll have a few days off whenever that's given and whether that's on account of the Christians, the Jews, the Muslims or Hindus, I couldnae gie a flyer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ArabHibee

And what of it if they are offended by it? Why does this country pander so much to minorities? :confused:

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Personally, I don't think that this country panders to minorities...rising BNP vote, at war in two Muslim countries, the continuing popularity of the Daily Mail and Sun, new immigration policies for non-EU.

The movement away from the Christian meaning of Christmas closely represents the changes in this country. Why do people think that changing from tradition is do with pandering to minonrities not representing the evolving views of the majority.

Christmas lights are an increase in electricity consumption and are as such a waste of money and harming the enviroment. They should be banned. :grr:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Green Mikey

Personally, I don't think that this country panders to minorities...rising BNP vote, at war in two Muslim countries, the continuing popularity of the Daily Mail and Sun, new immigration policies for non-EU.

The movement away from the Christian meaning of Christmas closely represents the changes in this country. Why do people think that changing from tradition is do with pandering to minonrities not representing the evolving views of the majority.

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Aye, sure we don't pander - cooncil leaflets in every language going - for starters. Go to Poland and see how that works over there.

I might go to the switch oan in Edinburgh on Thursday :greengrin

I'll ask how many are "Christians" :rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ArabHibee

Aye, sure we don't pander - cooncil leaflets in every language going - for starters. Go to Poland and see how that works over there.

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I'd hardly call that pandering to minorities. Said leaflets are also in braille, large print and on spoken word format. It's just making important information accessible to a point. I think it's a mark of our civilisation that we consider the various citizens who make up society when providing public services. Besides, how would you propose you give information to a Chinese/Urdu/Bengali speaker to help them understand council tax if you don't give them the information? You can also legally insist on sitting your driving test in Welsh anywhere in the UK... a minority here, but a majority in some parts of Wales.

Cancelling Christmas and closing all you can eat buffets during Ramadan, however, would be pandering to minorities.

utterly discusting. Shame on you Dundee City Council......what an "up yours" to Christians.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hibee_boy

utterly discusting. Shame on you Dundee City Council......what an "up yours" to Christians.

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Will they turn the other cheek? WWJD?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blacksaltire

I'd hardly call that pandering to minorities. Said leaflets are also in braille, large print and on spoken word format. It's just making important information accessible to a point. I think it's a mark of our civilisation that we consider the various citizens who make up society when providing public services. Besides, how would you propose you give information to a Chinese/Urdu/Bengali speaker to help them understand council tax if you don't give them the information? You can also legally insist on sitting your driving test in Welsh anywhere in the UK... a minority here, but a majority in some parts of Wales.

Cancelling Christmas and closing all you can eat buffets during Ramadan, however, would be pandering to minorities.

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I'd expect them to learn english and read the leaflets written in english. Just like what I would have to do if I went to live in another country, as in my example, Poland.

Bring on the rants for my totally un-PC views.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ArabHibee

I'd expect them to learn english and read the leaflets written in english. Just like what I would have to do if I went to live in another country, as in my example, Poland.

Bring on the rants for my totally un-PC views.

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Nowt to do with being un-PC, plenty to do with being utterly ludicrous.

Of course, when Brits move to say, Spain, they all become fluid in Spanish dont they? It's a case of being civilised, grown up society. Presumably anyone coming to the country has to be completely fluent in English before they arrive? Anyone looking to find out about how to learn English or access education has to just guess do they?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hibee_boy

utterly discusting. Shame on you Dundee City Council......what an "up yours" to Christians.

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ooohhh moral outrage. Are you offended? Do you feel that your religion is under threat? Or are you just venting pointlessly. By the way, you should write to the Daily Mail to get a job as a headline writer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ArabHibee

I'd expect them to learn english and read the leaflets written in english. Just like what I would have to do if I went to live in another country, as in my example, Poland.

Bring on the rants for my totally un-PC views.

---

I'm not sure 'un-PC' and 'stupid' are exactly interchangeable terms.

1) What is your (slightly peculiar and obsessive) belief that local councils in Poland don't publish leaflets in languages other than Polish based on? I demand to be furnished with proof!

2) What exactly is it you object to about local councils here publishing leaflets in an array of languages? I can see the positives of helping someone out who would otherwise be completely ****ed, what are the drawbacks as far as you can see?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ArabHibee

I'd expect them to learn english and read the leaflets written in english. Just like what I would have to do if I went to live in another country, as in my example, Poland.

Bring on the rants for my totally un-PC views.

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:agree: People who come to live in Britain, and who can't speak English, should have to take mandatory English lessons on their arrival.

It's ridiculous to compare producing information in a foreign language for people who can't speak English, with producing information in braille or large print etc.

People who are blind/deaf cannot communicate in any other way and have no choice in the matter. People who come here from abroad and speak no English can take English lessons but many choose not to.

As for the argument of 'I wonder how many Brits who go to live in Spain, bother to learn Spanish', I couldn't care less what happens in Spain or any other country. Of course if a British person goes to live in a non-English speaking country, they should learn the language but it's up to that particular country to make sure that happens.

My only concern is with what happens in the UK.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FalkirkHibee

:agree: People who come to live in Britain, and who can't speak English, should have to take mandatory English lessons on their arrival.

It's ridiculous to compare producing information in a foreign language for people who can't speak English, with producing information in braille or large print etc.

People who are blind/deaf cannot communicate in any other way and have no choice in the matter. People who come here from abroad and speak no English can take English lessons but many choose not to.

As for the argument of 'I wonder how many Brits who go to live in Spain, bother to learn Spanish', I couldn't care less what happens in Spain or any other country. Of course if a British person goes to live in a non-English speaking country, they should learn the language but it's up to that particular country to make sure that happens.

My only concern is with what happens in the UK.

---

Here's a scenario for you. Someone is offered a job - lets say a surgeon. He is from Bangladesh. His English is excellent. He needs English and has learned it from a very early age. He brings with him his wife and kids. The wife, having not needed to so far, does not have a good command of English at all. His kids have learned some at school. They speak Bengali at home.

Will you stop the surgeon from starting his job until all his family can speak English? Are the kids to be excluded from education until they can speak English? Is his wife not to join him in the UK until she can prove she speaks and understands English to a required level?

It's a very real example. There are very few people living in Edinburgh who cannot speak some level of English. Their reading skills might not be the same - try learning a language to speak and then learn to write or read it. Then try learning it if the alphabet or writing system is totally different.

So these leaflets - perhaps there are people who can communicate in English, or get by in it. But if they need particular information, is it best to present this in a format they will immediately understand, or do you insist that they must speak, read and write perfect English?

Presumably you're willing to wait for any council tax to be paid until they can understand the english version leaflet explaining how it works?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ArabHibee

I'd expect them to learn english and read the leaflets written in english. Just like what I would have to do if I went to live in another country, as in my example, Poland.

Bring on the rants for my totally un-PC views.

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That's brutal! :grr:

Why do the Poles have to put up with their councils printing leaflets in English? :bitchy:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TwoCarpets

Nowt to do with being un-PC, plenty to do with being utterly ludicrous.

Of course, when Brits move to say, Spain, they all become fluid in Spanish dont they? It's a case of being civilised, grown up society. Presumably anyone coming to the country has to be completely fluent in English before they arrive? Anyone looking to find out about how to learn English or access education has to just guess do they?

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Ah, the old Spain debate. I specifically chose a country that I know about rather than one that I didn't.

I never said they had to be fluent. And no they don't have to guess, they can get a phrase book and work it out for themselves, just like I had to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LiverpoolHibs

I'm not sure 'un-PC' and 'stupid' are exactly interchangeable terms.

1) What is your (slightly peculiar and obsessive) belief that local councils in Poland don't publish leaflets in languages other than Polish based on? I demand to be furnished with proof!

2) What exactly is it you object to about local councils here publishing leaflets in an array of languages? I can see the positives of helping someone out who would otherwise be completely ****ed, what are the drawbacks as far as you can see?

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1) Obsessive? Not sure how you work that one out? Unfortunately, I am unable to furnish you with proof as I've never seen leaflets in Urdhu/Chines/Bengali or any minority language in Poland

2) My objections? The amount of money that is spent on this is the main one, when it would be better spent elsewhere.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FalkirkHibee

:agree: People who come to live in Britain, and who can't speak English, should have to take mandatory English lessons on their arrival.

It's ridiculous to compare producing information in a foreign language for people who can't speak English, with producing information in braille or large print etc.

People who are blind/deaf cannot communicate in any other way and have no choice in the matter. People who come here from abroad and speak no English can take English lessons but many choose not to.

As for the argument of 'I wonder how many Brits who go to live in Spain, bother to learn Spanish', I couldn't care less what happens in Spain or any other country. Of course if a British person goes to live in a non-English speaking country, they should learn the language but it's up to that particular country to make sure that happens.

My only concern is with what happens in the UK.

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I agree with you apart from the bit in bold. Think its up to the individual to learn not the country to teach them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blacksaltire

Here's a scenario for you. Someone is offered a job - lets say a surgeon. He is from Bangladesh. His English is excellent. He needs English and has learned it from a very early age. He brings with him his wife and kids. The wife, having not needed to so far, does not have a good command of English at all. His kids have learned some at school. They speak Bengali at home.

Will you stop the surgeon from starting his job until all his family can speak English? Are the kids to be excluded from education until they can speak English? Is his wife not to join him in the UK until she can prove she speaks and understands English to a required level?

It's a very real example. There are very few people living in Edinburgh who cannot speak some level of English. Their reading skills might not be the same - try learning a language to speak and then learn to write or read it. Then try learning it if the alphabet or writing system is totally different.

So these leaflets - perhaps there are people who can communicate in English, or get by in it. But if they need particular information, is it best to present this in a format they will immediately understand, or do you insist that they must speak, read and write perfect English?

Presumably you're willing to wait for any council tax to be paid until they can understand the english version leaflet explaining how it works?

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I'll answer Yes to all your questions about the surgeon.
I think you are living in a dream world if you think there are very few people who cannot speak English in Edinburgh. I've come across a lot, normally older members of family, who have no intention of learning our language. Why? No need to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peevemor®

That's brutal! :grr:

Why do the Poles have to put up with their councils printing leaflets in English? :bitchy:

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Not sure if you're being funny or not but if not then who said they had to?

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Originally Posted by ArabHibee

Ah, the old Spain debate.

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Stack or Maka?:confused:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by marinello59

Stack or Maka?:confused:

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:tsk tsk: This is a non-football debate.

On the other hand - :tee hee:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ArabHibee

My objections? The amount of money that is spent on this is the main one, when it would be better spent elsewhere.

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If you are going to take the economic argument, then you really need to think it through. The cost of printing (which is something I do know about) different language versions or different languages on a leaflet is minimal.

I would think (and i admit this is only a supposition) that the potential loss of revenue or extra additional indirect costs to the city/nation through lack of information would massively outweigh this.

Your view does smack of rather petty small-mindedness.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FalkirkHibee

People who come to live in Britain, and who can't speak English, should have to take mandatory English lessons on their arrival.

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And then you could get all up-in-arms about having to pay for English lessons

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FalkirkHibee

It's ridiculous to compare producing information in a foreign language for people who can't speak English, with producing information in braille or large print etc.

People who are blind/deaf cannot communicate in any other way and have no choice in the matter. People who come here from abroad and speak no English can take English lessons but many choose not to.

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No, its a fair comparison with different specifics. Its about giving people in a society equal access to information. Around 800,000 adults in scotland have very low levels os literacy and numeracy. Whilst some, perhaps many, of these people will undoubtedly have learning issues, I'm presuming some had the choice to be able to learn to read and write both as children and adults. If we are a mature and civilised society, we should look after all these people - communication and information is critical to living succesfuly in a developed nation, and access to it is the responsibility of the nation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FalkirkHibee

As for the argument of 'I wonder how many Brits who go to live in Spain, bother to learn Spanish', I couldn't care less what happens in Spain or any other country. Of course if a British person goes to live in a non-English speaking country, they should learn the language but it's up to that particular country to make sure that happens.
My only concern is with what happens in the UK.

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You enjoy living in your splendidly isolated cocoon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ArabHibee

I'll answer Yes to all your questions about the surgeon.
I think you are living in a dream world if you think there are very few people who cannot speak English in Edinburgh. I've come across a lot, normally older members of family, who have no intention of learning our language. Why? No need to.

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Seems like we both need a reality check. I would say that there are not many people in Edinburgh who cannot speak a single word of english. But perhaps you look out for them more than I do?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blacksaltire

Seems like we both need a reality check. I would say that there are not many people in Edinburgh who cannot speak a single word of english. But perhaps you look out for them more than I do?

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I've never come across any. But then, I suppose they would confine themselves to their own family/community and not put themselves in situations where they don't need to speak English. I certainly can't think of anywhere you would go where you would be guaranteed to meet one - unlike the big cities like London.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FalkirkHibee

:agree: People who come to live in Britain, and who can't speak English, should have to take mandatory English lessons on their arrival.

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What's it dependent upon? What happens if they find it so difficult and tortuous that they stop turning up? Or if they just decide not to turn up for whatever reason?

Stuck on the next boat out, aye?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FalkirkHibee

It's ridiculous to compare producing information in a foreign language for people who can't speak English, with producing information in braille or large print etc.

People who are blind/deaf cannot communicate in any other way and have no choice in the matter. People who come here from abroad and speak no English can take English lessons but many choose not to.

As for the argument of 'I wonder how many Brits who go to live in Spain, bother to learn Spanish', I couldn't care less what happens in Spain or any other country. Of course if a British person goes to live in a non-English speaking country, they should learn the language but it's up to that particular country to make sure that happens.

My only concern is with what happens in the UK.

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It's always done on 'our' terms isn't it. It's entirely the fault of 'the Other' if there are societal divisions and it's entirely their fault if there's a backlash from the 'host' community because of this.

Apart from the ****ing stinking pettiness (as Two Carpets says) and underlying reactionary resentment of this sort of nasty ****, people don't seem to realise how it feeds into a culture in which racist abuse and attacks become legitimised and the far-right can thrive. The underlying (re)sentiment being, 'you're lucky we are allowing you to be here - adapt, conform and fit in (to a society that is, it increasingly appears, fundamentally antipathetic to your presence) or you're out on your ear'. While Labour attempts to regain ground lost to the BNP - which, historically, is always doomed to failure anyway - through uber-reactionary and racist pronouncements on immigration and 'Britishness' (Brown the other day: And everyone wants to be assured that newcomers will accept the responsibilities as well as the rights that come with living here – they’ll accept the responsibilities to obey the law, to speak English, to make a contribution.) they've been cutting funding for ESOL courses for the past five years.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ArabHibee

1) Obsessive? Not sure how you work that one out? Unfortunately, I am unable to furnish you with proof as I've never seen leaflets in Urdhu/Chines/Bengali or any minority language in Poland

2) My objections? The amount of money that is spent on this is the main one, when it would be better spent elsewhere.

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So again, what's it based on? Have you just decided to suppose it so as to (in no way) back up your argument?

2) How much does it cost?

Christmas Light Switch on in Dundee

What's the big deal what it's called?

It's only one light, FFS.

Or are we talking about the switch?

I'm confused.

I'm also half Polish and I can assure the ignoramuses on here that there is a lot more English printed in Polish cities than you'll find Polish in the UK.

Try finding a menu or Museum information in Polish for example.

Tricky discussion to try and "dip one's toe in", so to speak.

I found, through my time at Uni, that there are a lot of foreign students who come into the country, ABLE to speak/understand English, but chosing not to use it themselves, other than in their studies. Other times, I've no idea how they get into Uni over here at all.

I was in a Postgraduate Engineering course last year at Dundee, and out of a class of 70 students, there were 2 Scots and 6 Brits. The rest were Indian. We had to do assessments of each other based on presentation skill/ability every other week, and constantly, the Indian Students would flounder because they had a sub-standard grasp of the English language. Trying to mark their written efforts was a sodding nightmare, and I would constantly mark them down in peer review, as I couldn't decifer their grammar.

Now, kudos to them for coming to the UK and trying to do a degree in a secondary language (their English was certainly better than my Hindi), but in an academic institution, enforcement of English is a necessity (or should be). In the USA, you have to pass a written, reading and oral Test of English Capability test, and if you fail that, regardless to how much of a genius you are in your field, you're punted back to wherever you came from (be it India, Poland, Afghanistan or Canada :wink:) Sadly, with international students coughing up the best part of £9k per/annum, institutions here cannot afford to turn them away, and actively go out and recruit from these countries.

I'd rather places were taken by home-based students, but being that our places are so heavily subsidised, it's not cost effective for the Universities - the reason I would rather these places went to UK based students is not because I'm a racist/BNP voting/Daily Mail reading Nazi - it's two-fold, in the sense that a) International students don't integrate well into a research environment, as they usually seek comfort (or safety?) in numbers and b) their concept of acceptable behaviour is not what any normal student from the UK would deem appropriate. Going back to my example of Indian students in my Masters course last year, they would think nothing of arriving 15 minutes late, disrupting the lecture theatre as they all find seats together and loudly talking to one another (often translation)* during the lecture.

*Again, I don't speak Hindi, but was told this was the case at our student/staff rep meetings.

Despite this wild tangent, I don't think that Dundee City Council (as vile as I otherwise find them) are "hijacking Christmas". Initially, that WAS my knee jerk reaction, as I had been told that "they were embracing the multicultural aspect of Dundee", but this turned out to be wrong - the Christmas lights in Dundee still read Merry Christmas, the Churches are still heavily involved in the festivities, and Mass will continue to run every Sunday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday, so there's no need to feel that your Christian rights are being interfered with.

I have many friends who are from racially mixed backgrounds and we're all looking forward to spending time with each other and each other's families during the festive period - I'll celebrate Christmas, they won't, but they will spend the Holidays with their families and friends, just like I will, and wouldn't piss and moan about the country shutting down for a few days, despite their non-Christian backgrounds. I've yet to come across a significant portion of migrants to the UK who dislike services stopping over Christmas. Besides, we need some group of people to man the call-centres/corner shops/buses without complaint (tongue firmly in cheek!)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Story So Far...

Tricky discussion to try and "dip one's toe in", so to speak.

I found, through my time at Uni, that there are a lot of foreign students who come into the country, ABLE to speak/understand English, but chosing not to use it themselves, other than in their studies. Other times, I've no idea how they get into Uni over here at all.

I was in a Postgraduate Engineering course last year at Dundee, and out of a class of 70 students, there were 2 Scots and 6 Brits. The rest were Indian. We had to do assessments of each other based on presentation skill/ability every other week, and constantly, the Indian Students would flounder because they had a sub-standard grasp of the English language. Trying to mark their written efforts was a sodding nightmare, and I would constantly mark them down in peer review, as I couldn't decifer their grammar.

Now, kudos to them for coming to the UK and trying to do a degree in a secondary language (their English was certainly better than my Hindi), but in an academic institution, enforcement of English is a necessity (or should be). In the USA, you have to pass a written, reading and oral Test of English Capability test, and if you fail that, regardless to how much of a genius you are in your field, you're punted back to wherever you came from (be it India, Poland, Afghanistan or Canada :wink:) Sadly, with international students coughing up the best part of £9k per/annum, institutions here cannot afford to turn them away, and actively go out and recruit from these countries.

I'd rather places were taken by home-based students, but being that our places are so heavily subsidised, it's not cost effective for the Universities - the reason I would rather these places went to UK based students is not because I'm a racist/BNP voting/Daily Mail reading Nazi - it's two-fold, in the sense that a) International students don't integrate well into a research environment, as they usually seek comfort (or safety?) in numbers and b) their concept of acceptable behaviour is not what any normal student from the UK would deem appropriate. Going back to my example of Indian students in my Masters course last year, they would think nothing of arriving 15 minutes late, disrupting the lecture theatre as they all find seats together and loudly talking to one another (often translation)* during the lecture.

*Again, I don't speak Hindi, but was told this was the case at our student/staff rep meetings.

Despite this wild tangent, I don't think that Dundee City Council (as vile as I otherwise find them) are "hijacking Christmas". Initially, that WAS my knee jerk reaction, as I had been told that "they were embracing the multicultural aspect of Dundee", but this turned out to be wrong - the Christmas lights in Dundee still read Merry Christmas, the Churches are still heavily involved in the festivities, and Mass will continue to run every Sunday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday, so there's no need to feel that your Christian rights are being interfered with.

I have many friends who are from racially mixed backgrounds and we're all looking forward to spending time with each other and each other's families during the festive period - I'll celebrate Christmas, they won't, but they will spend the Holidays with their families and friends, just like I will, and wouldn't piss and moan about the country shutting down for a few days, despite their non-Christian backgrounds. I've yet to come across a significant portion of migrants to the UK who dislike services stopping over Christmas. Besides, we need some group of people to man the call-centres/corner shops/buses without complaint (tongue firmly in cheek!)

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Interesting post.

If you take the OP/subject as a wider comment on "pandering to minorities", then it raises lots of relevant points.

If domestic students are not being actively discriminated against for entry to Post-Graduate courses, then the fact of large numbers of indian or other foreign students is just that, a fact. The income generated from fees your course is over £600,000. If it didnt come from there it would need to come from somehwere else - seems a win-win to me.

As for behaviour, thats a different matter - the University should have set acceptable levels of behaviour, or horsed the culprits out. Cultural difference in an academic setting should not be a permissible excuse for being disruptive.

There are settings where the local culture is dominant. Ive managed teams of workers from Polish, Asian, Afro-Caribbean as well as white UK backgrounds. In a work environment there is a requirement to conform to what is acceptable and expected. I dont think you can afford to discriminate in any way when it comes to what is required in a structured setting.

By the way, the only factor which related to language or ability to understand in that work setting was could the individual understand the instructions given to be able to do the job safely and properly. If they couldnt, they didnt work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ArabHibee

I think you are living in a dream world if you think there are very few people who cannot speak English in Edinburgh. I've come across a lot, normally older members of family, who have no intention of learning our language. Why? No need to.

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If someone is contributing to our society (paying tax etc) I have no problem with what language they speak. Does it really matter that an OAP immigrant can't speak English, I don't think that it has a significant impact on our society.

Apart from the the production of multi-lingual leaflets how does this country pander to minorities?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TwoCarpets

Interesting post.

If you take the OP/subject as a wider comment on "pandering to minorities", then it raises lots of relevant points.

If domestic students are not being actively discriminated against for entry to Post-Graduate courses, then the fact of large numbers of indian or other foreign students is just that, a fact. The income generated from fees your course is over £600,000. If it didnt come from there it would need to come from somehwere else - seems a win-win to me.

As for behaviour, thats a different matter - the University should have set acceptable levels of behaviour, or horsed the culprits out. Cultural difference in an academic setting should not be a permissible excuse for being disruptive.

There are settings where the local culture is dominant. Ive managed teams of workers from Polish, Asian, Afro-Caribbean as well as white UK backgrounds. In a work environment there is a requirement to conform to what is acceptable and expected. I dont think you can afford to discriminate in any way when it comes to what is required in a structured setting.

By the way, the only factor which related to language or ability to understand in that work setting was could the individual understand the instructions given to be able to do the job safely and properly. If they couldnt, they didnt work.

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I'm not paranoid enough to believe that the University would have actively discriminated against British nationals, but there were 90 available spaces on the course, and I know 4 people who were in my undergraduate course who were declined a place, despite having the same qualification as me at undergraduate level. Granted, I have 2 scientific papers to my name and they didn't, but none of the others I knew who got places were any different to those who weren't accepted. It would be easy to understand why some would look at it and say that the home-based students are being treated unfairly, as they're worth less money.

It stands to reason (in my eyes anyway) that a University would consider the potential benefit of taking an International student ahead of a domestic student, as they profit 3xfold. It's good "business". And yes, it is win-win, as it means that domestic students continue to receive subsidised fees, but the willingness to attract foreign students seems to overlook basic requirements as far as I can see. I don't understand why UK institutions (as none of us do it) follow the American Model and assess their suitability in terms of basic literacy and numeracy skills in the host language.

I guess your final point is key in covering that though, that if international students can't understand the work/assessments etc, they won't gain a qualification or pass.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hibbyradge

Christmas Light Switch on in Dundee

What's the big deal what it's called?

It's only one light, FFS.

Or are we talking about the switch?

I'm confused.

I'm also half Polish and I can assure the ignoramuses on here that there is a lot more English printed in Polish cities than you'll find Polish in the UK.

Try finding a menu or Museum information in Polish for example.

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Bigos Restaurant and Museum of Polish Food on Leith Walk is surely the best place to start?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Green Mikey

If someone is contributing to our society (paying tax etc) I have no problem with what language they speak. Does it really matter that an OAP immigrant can't speak English, I don't think that it has a significant impact on our society.

Apart from the the production of multi-lingual leaflets how does this country pander to minorities?

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You are absolutely right, especially it would appear that a vast number of indigenous Britons struggle with the language. Listen to some of the adverts on TV - especially for hay kay (Silvrikin and such like) and tell me what language they are spoking on?

You are absolutely right, especially it would appear that a vast number of indigenous Britons struggle with the language. Listen to some of the adverts on TV - especially for hay kay (Silvrikin and such like) and tell me what language they are spoking on?[/QUOTE]

:faf: Do they even make that these days?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Betty Boop

You are absolutely right, especially it would appear that a vast number of indigenous Britons struggle with the language. Listen to some of the adverts on TV - especially for hay kay (Silvrikin and such like) and tell me what language they are spoking on?

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:faf: Do they even make that these days?[/QUOTE]

Been a long time since I had to worry about what brand of shampoo I buy. :boo hoo:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Filled Rolls

Bigos Restaurant and Museum of Polish Food on Leith Walk is surely the best place to start?

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Indeed, but they are Polish.

In Poland's cities, almost every restaurant has an English menu, not just the British ones.

I am tired of this country worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on London , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Brits.

However, the dust from the attacks has barely settled and the 'politically correct' crowd begin complaining about the possibility that our patriotism is offending others.

I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to Britain . However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand.

This idea of Scotland being a multicultural centre for community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Scots, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle. This culture has been developed over centuries of wars, struggles, trials and victories fought by the untold masses of men and women who laid down their lives and of the millions of men and women who have sought freedom.

We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if they wish to become part of our society, learn the language!

If God offends them, then I suggest they consider another part of the world as their new home, because God is part of our culture.. If St. Andrews flag offends them, then they should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet.

We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how they did things where they came from. This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow them every opportunity to enjoy all this.

But once they are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our National Motto, or Our Way of Life, I encourage them to take advantage of one other great British freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.

We didn't force them to come here. If they don't like it GO HOME!!

They asked to be here.. So they should accept the country that accepted them. Pretty easy really, when you think about it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ArabHibee

But once they are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our National Motto, or Our Way of Life, I encourage them to take advantage of one other great British freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.

We didn't force them to come here. If they don't like it GO HOME!!

They asked to be here.. So they should accept the country that accepted them. Pretty easy really, when you think about it.

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What a remarkable intolerant rant. Capital letters for "THE RIGHT TO LEAVE" and "GO HOME", eh? Nick would be proud.

As far as I see it, you're the only person whining and griping. I've never heard any immigrant complaining about "Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our National Motto, or Our Way of Life".

Just paranoid right wing racists.

You say not against immigratiion, but you don't seem to want to help immigrants assimilate in any way.

That sounds like lip service to me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ArabHibee

I am tired of this country worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on London , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Brits.

However, the dust from the attacks has barely settled and the 'politically correct' crowd begin complaining about the possibility that our patriotism is offending others.

I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to Britain . However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand.

This idea of Scotland being a multicultural centre for community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Scots, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle. This culture has been developed over centuries of wars, struggles, trials and victories fought by the untold masses of men and women who laid down their lives and of the millions of men and women who have sought freedom.

We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if they wish to become part of our society, learn the language!

If God offends them, then I suggest they consider another part of the world as their new home, because God is part of our culture.. If St. Andrews flag offends them, then they should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet.

We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how they did things where they came from. This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow them every opportunity to enjoy all this.

But once they are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our National Motto, or Our Way of Life, I encourage them to take advantage of one other great British freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.

We didn't force them to come here. If they don't like it GO HOME!!

They asked to be here.. So they should accept the country that accepted them. Pretty easy really, when you think about it.

---

WE? I am sorry but you don't speak for ME, I am proud to be part of a multi-cultural society!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ArabHibee

I am tired of this country worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on London , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Brits.

However, the dust from the attacks has barely settled and the 'politically correct' crowd begin complaining about the possibility that our patriotism is offending others.

I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to Britain . However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand.

This idea of Scotland being a multicultural centre for community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Scots, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle. This culture has been developed over centuries of wars, struggles, trials and victories fought by the untold masses of men and women who laid down their lives and of the millions of men and women who have sought freedom.

We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if they wish to become part of our society, learn the language!

If God offends them, then I suggest they consider another part of the world as their new home, because God is part of our culture.. If St. Andrews flag offends them, then they should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet.

We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how they did things where they came from. This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow them every opportunity to enjoy all this.

But once they are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our National Motto, or Our Way of Life, I encourage them to take advantage of one other great British freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.

We didn't force them to come here. If they don't like it GO HOME!!

They asked to be here.. So they should accept the country that accepted them. Pretty easy really, when you think about it.

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Littlejohn (2009)