Managerial Sack Race

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Originally Posted by Since452

I agree that the club don't hang about with managers. I think that LJ would have been gone if we'd lost El Sackio against Aberdeen last season. We ended up winning 6-0, managed to ship a lot of the dead wood out in January and then had a very promising second half of the season and in my opinion were unlucky not to finish 3rd. The three league games this season killed him but think his card was already marked.

Maloney way just way out of his depth and the club acted swiftly, rightfully. Montgomery has a very similar record to Maloney though. Forfar is absolutely huge for him. We should have enough quality to get through. If we don't then it'll be down to tactics or attitude and i'd be amazed if he survived. The problem for me isn't the managers though. It's the people continually hiring the wrong ones.

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I’m yet to see anybody put forward a reasoned argument for why NM won’t be approaching coat on shoogly peg territory. Some posters are getting themselves all worked up about it but all the evidence we have of how this board deals with this sort of thing suggests that’s exactly where we’ll be getting into if he can’t arrest the slide once we come back from the break.

Folk can claim he shouldn’t be all they want, and if that’s what they think that’s absolutely fine. History would suggest though that our board, the people who actually make the decision, won’t be as accommodating though. They haven’t been with the previous 3 managers, posters thinking that they’re going to treat NM any differently just because they like him is pretty delusional imo.

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Originally Posted by Stubbsy90+2

I’m yet to see anybody put forward a reasoned argument for why NM won’t be approaching coat on shoogly peg territory. Some posters are getting themselves all worked up about it but all the evidence we have of how this board deals with this sort of thing suggests that’s exactly where we’ll be getting into if he can’t arrest the slide once we come back from the break.

Folk can claim he shouldn’t be all they want, and if that’s what they think that’s absolutely fine. History would suggest though that our board, the people who actually make the decision, won’t be as accommodating though. They haven’t been with the previous 3 managers, thinking that they’re going to treat NM any differently just because some posters like him is pretty delusional imo.

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Completely agree. I thought that Kensell might give LJ more time as ultimately it looks bad on him if he's sacking another manager he hired but that wasn't the case. See no reason why Montgomery will be treated differently. If Montgomery is punted though Kensell shouldn't be anywhere near the recruitment process for the next guy. His track record so far is absolutley shocking. Even if he's not directly hiring them he's still signing off on it the finger will always be pointed at him. Ian Gordon too.

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Originally Posted by Since452

I agree that the club don't hang about with managers. I think that LJ would have been gone if we'd lost El Sackio against Aberdeen last season. We ended up winning 6-0, managed to ship a lot of the dead wood out in January and then had a very promising second half of the season with some astute signings and in my opinion were unlucky not to finish 3rd. The three league games this season killed him but think his card was already marked.

Maloney way just way out of his depth and the club acted swiftly, rightfully. Montgomery has a very similar record to Maloney though. Forfar is absolutely huge for him. We should have enough quality to get through. If we don't then it'll be down to tactics or attitude and i'd be amazed if he survived, especially with Foley coming in. He'll want assurances that the players we potentially get will improve. The problem for me isn't the managers though. It's the people continually hiring the wrong ones.

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Honestly, if we could sign two quality people to replace the two currently running the club (that's the person with the job title and then the other person actually in control) I'd take that over any new on the field signings in a heartbeat. Without good leadership no institution in any field or organisation fulfills its promise.

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Originally Posted by One Day Soon

Honestly, if we could sign two quality people to replace the two currently running the club (that's the person with the job title and then the other person actually in control) I'd take that over any new on the field signings in a heartbeat. Without good leadership no institution in any field or organisation fulfills its promise.

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Completely agree.

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Originally Posted by Stubbsy90+2

I’m yet to see anybody put forward a reasoned argument for why NM won’t be approaching coat on shoogly peg territory. Some posters are getting themselves all worked up about it but all the evidence we have of how this board deals with this sort of thing suggests that’s exactly where we’ll be getting into if he can’t arrest the slide once we come back from the break.

Folk can claim he shouldn’t be all they want, and if that’s what they think that’s absolutely fine. History would suggest though that our board, the people who actually make the decision, won’t be as accommodating though. They haven’t been with the previous 3 managers, posters thinking that they’re going to treat NM any differently just because they like him is pretty delusional imo.

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I don’t think he will be in danger of the sack as we’re going into the likes of the upcoming Forfar game still without Montgomery having signed a single player. He only has to point to the bench for the whole of his time here, especially the last few games. He’d be as well resigning now if he’s not going to get close to what’s needed this window and his season being judged on JDH, McKirdy & Cadden saving it. JDH & Cadden are on their 4th manager at Hibs!

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Originally Posted by One Day Soon

Honestly, if we could sign two quality people to replace the two currently running the club (that's the person with the job title and then the other person actually in control) I'd take that over any new on the field signings in a heartbeat. Without good leadership no institution in any field or organisation fulfills its promise.

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Bang on

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Originally Posted by The Modfather

I don’t think he will be in danger of the sack as we’re going into the likes of the upcoming Forfar game still without Montgomery having signed a single player. He only has to point to the bench for the whole of his time here, especially the last few games. He’d be as well resigning now if he’s not going to get close to what’s needed this window and his season being judged on JDH, McKirdy & Cadden saving it. JDH & Cadden are on their 4th manager at Hibs!

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Jack Ross probably could have pointed to poor transfer business, he could also point to previous success in the role. Maloney could have done the same in terms of transfer business. He could have pointed to the fact he had to go into semi finals against a Hearts side that were by a mile third best in the country with James Scott, Chris Mueller, Ewan Henderson, Sylvester Jasper and a Melkersen who’d hardly played football on grass as his attacking options. Henderson was signed for him and nothing to do with him, likewise Melkersen, likewise Mueller and Scott pre dated him. He could have pointed to the fact that Martin Boyle, was sold almost the minute he got in the door and was pretty much a one man team. They still sacked them though.

I’m not necessarily sitting here debating the rights and wrongs of whether the board should be getting itchy trigger fingers. I’m just merely pointing out that history would suggest that another few bad results in the league and that’s absolutely what will be happening. It’s fanciful to suggest otherwise imo.

If Hibs collapse in the run of fixtures over the next 5-6 weeks then I think NM will be in danger of losing his job. Given the run of fixtures, it's going to be a very tough ask for this side to stay in touch with the European places.

Most of us thought we had a better squad than results under Johnson in the league suggested this season. Turns out that NM hasn't been able to get too much of a tune from them either. Now were often debating formations and set up etc. I don't think NM has helped himself here at times, but the bottom line is that we have too many players who aren't good enough, no matter how you set them up.

Whatever happens, if NM goes, Kensall should also be under scrutiny. He's presided over an on-going shambles when it comes to recruitment.

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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

If Hibs collapse in the run of fixtures over the next 5-6 weeks then I think NM will be in danger of losing his job. Given the run of fixtures, it's going to be a very tough ask for this side to stay in touch with the European places.

Most of us thought we had a better squad than results under Johnson in the league suggested this season. Turns out that NM hasn't been able to get too much of a tune from them either. Now were often debating formations and set up etc. I don't think NM has helped himself here at times, but the bottom line is that we have too many players who aren't good enough, no matter how you set them up.

Whatever happens, if NM goes, Kensall should also be under scrutiny. He's presided over an on-going shambles when it comes to recruitment.

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Agree with your last point. You can’t go appoint 3 crap managers in 2 years (if if comes to pass that NM is sacked) and then get given yet another go

I dont think Monty should be sacked until he's managed to give the Newell JDH and Campbell midfield a try.

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Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs

I dont think Monty should be sacked until he's managed to give the Newell JDH and Campbell midfield a try.

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That’s why he keeps persisting with the 442, to avoid that trap.

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Originally Posted by Hibby Kay-Yay

That’s why he keeps persisting with the 442, to avoid that trap.

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:greengrin

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Originally Posted by One Day Soon

Honestly, if we could sign two quality people to replace the two currently running the club (that's the person with the job title and then the other person actually in control) I'd take that over any new on the field signings in a heartbeat. Without good leadership no institution in any field or organisation fulfills its promise.

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:top marks

Your posts on the subject sum things up perfectly.

We've got fans claiming BK is great at his job because we can make money on guys like Doig or for improving our commercial deals. They're more impressed about us hitting some KPIs than results on the pitch.

They boast about us having great infrasturcure whilst we bob around mid table and think that's success ffs.

We need to start putting the first team first. If BK can't or won't do it, he should leave.

Get someone with some passion for the game and not just concerned about making money. We're going to have plenty money soon anyways :greengrin

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Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..

:top marks

Your posts on the subject sum things up perfectly.

We've got fans claiming BK is great at his job because we can make money on guys like Doig or for improving our commercial deals. They're more impressed about us hitting some KPIs than results on the pitch.

They boast about us having great infrasturcure whilst we bob around mid table and think that's success ffs.

We need to start putting the first team first. If BK can't or won't do it, he should leave.

Get someone with some passion for the game and not just concerned about making money. We're going to have plenty money soon anyways :greengrin

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Exactly. The fact we haven't hired a director of football to focus on the football side of things is unbelievable.

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Originally Posted by Rumble de Thump

Exactly. The fact we haven't hired a director of football to focus on the football side of things is unbelievable.

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Brian ****ing McDermott for the umpteenth time

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Originally Posted by Hibby Kay-Yay

Brian ****ing McDermott for the umpteenth time

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Yes.

SDG to be interviewed for Ayr Job ?

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Originally Posted by Stubbsy90+2

I’m yet to see anybody put forward a reasoned argument for why NM won’t be approaching coat on shoogly peg territory. Some posters are getting themselves all worked up about it but all the evidence we have of how this board deals with this sort of thing suggests that’s exactly where we’ll be getting into if he can’t arrest the slide once we come back from the break.

Folk can claim he shouldn’t be all they want, and if that’s what they think that’s absolutely fine. History would suggest though that our board, the people who actually make the decision, won’t be as accommodating though. They haven’t been with the previous 3 managers, posters thinking that they’re going to treat NM any differently just because they like him is pretty delusional imo.

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Give this a go.

NM is clearly a serious, hard working pro who is putting everything he’s got into the job. He’s a student of the game and he’s got good people around him.

He’s got a very clear idea of how he wants his team to play. He communicates this clearly. He has been open with the fans and consistent from day one - no bs.

He had success with this system in Australia. So far it’s been mixed here, but he came in mid season and it’s quite a lot for the players to take in. But they do seem to have bought into it.

He comes across as honest and determined to me, and as committed to the job as you can be.

We’ve got a newish DoF, questions of ownership, not the ideal environment.

It might work, it might not, but he’s got a plan and deserves time to see it through.

Obviously a terrible run of results will pile the pressure on though.

IMO

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Originally Posted by Stubbsy90+2

Are they the common denominator though?

We play almost the same team every week. From that team, Miller and Tavares hardly played last season, Obita, Vente and Levitt are new signings and I think most would agree Marshall has done fairly well for him whilst Newell and Fish are the least of his problems. That’s the majority of a team who either haven’t contributed to managers getting sacked or are performing to a decent enough level yet we read that this squad keeps getting managers sacked.

There’s a reason the formation keeps taking the blame. Its not working.

I’m not sure it’s particularly fair to say they should just be able to adapt. Vente scored a bucket load of goals last season yet we use him in a completely different role. His heat map is all in our centre circle where as last season it was mainly in the opponents 18 yard box. Joe Newell is playing in a midfield that is outnumbered every week alongside a guy who is so immobile it’s frightening, yet we persist with it. Rather than saying they need to adapt, maybe the manager needs to adapt, something he’s proven completely incapable of doing so far? He’s asking all our best players to play roles that absolutely don’t suit them because this is the only system he appears to know.

Signing a guy that scored 49 goals in 92 games and then claiming it’s him that needs to adapt to a role where he never sees the ball in the box is absolutely nuts to me. Having two wingers who are two of the most impactful in the league and playing one of them upfront and having the other one playing so deep that he’s got to cover about 50 yards to do anything is nuts to me. Having one of the best centre mids outside the Old Firm and leaving him outnumbered in the midfield every week is nuts to me. These guys shouldn’t have to adapt. They should be used to their full potential and to do that it’s the manager that has to adapt.

I’m not going to argue that the board need go back him with better players. That could be levelled at our last 4 managers though and they’ve still sacked them so I very much doubt that’ll save him.

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👍👍👊

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Originally Posted by jacomo

Give this a go.

NM is clearly a serious, hard working pro who is putting everything he’s got into the job. He’s a student of the game and he’s got good people around him.

He’s got a very clear idea of how he wants his team to play. He communicates this clearly. He has been open with the fans and consistent from day one - no bs.

He had success with this system in Australia. So far it’s been mixed here, but he came in mid season and it’s quite a lot for the players to take in. But they do seem to have bought into it.

He comes across as honest and determined to me, and as committed to the job as you can be.

We’ve got a newish DoF, questions of ownership, not the ideal environment.

It might work, it might not, but he’s got a plan and deserves time to see it through.

Obviously a terrible run of results will pile the pressure on though.

IMO

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I agree and would also add, also IMHO, with no personal inside info, but based on things in the press as well as various rumours posted on here that:

The previous manager oversaw an unhappy workplace with an approach likely to lead to a toxic environment of uncertainty and mistrust.

This was recognised by the board and both Brian McDermott and Nick Montgomery look to have been selected, at least in part, due to their highly regarded people skills and inclusive, supportive approach to management.

It can take a while to fully build trust, especially so when you're building from a low level.

I don't know if Montgomery will be succesful here or not. Personally, I'd like the football to be of the free flowing, exciting, fast paced variety and I'm not sure if his approach can lead to that, but I do think we will improve as the players become increasingly familiar with the style of play he's trying to implement and their roles within it, and the fastest way of doing that will be by rigidly sticking with it, rather than chopping and changing all the time. The playing out from the back thing does seem to be the current "in vogue" tactic, and he was able to succeed with it using poorer quality players in the A league. I think the difference that he'll have to get to grips with is that, mostly due to climate, the A league is played at a much lower intensity than the Scottish League, so it remains to be seen if he can get the same approach to work here.

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Originally Posted by jacomo

Give this a go.

NM is clearly a serious, hard working pro who is putting everything he’s got into the job. He’s a student of the game and he’s got good people around him.

He’s got a very clear idea of how he wants his team to play. He communicates this clearly. He has been open with the fans and consistent from day one - no bs.

He had success with this system in Australia. So far it’s been mixed here, but he came in mid season and it’s quite a lot for the players to take in. But they do seem to have bought into it.

He comes across as honest and determined to me, and as committed to the job as you can be.

We’ve got a newish DoF, questions of ownership, not the ideal environment.

It might work, it might not, but he’s got a plan and deserves time to see it through.

Obviously a terrible run of results will pile the pressure on though.

IMO

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It's a reasonable evaluation.

Whilst he may well have a plan, so far it's not really panning out that well and the criticism's of naivety, inflexibility and not getting the best out of the players he has, they will continue.

I have little confidence that Montgomery will produce a decent run over the next series of games with the current squad, so what happens if he doesn't, does he still deserve time to see it through?

Manager needs backed and given resources to sign players able to test his vision. Failure to do so leaves our club wallowing in our current on-going average-mediocre state.

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Originally Posted by jacomo

Give this a go.

NM is clearly a serious, hard working pro who is putting everything he’s got into the job. He’s a student of the game and he’s got good people around him.

He’s got a very clear idea of how he wants his team to play. He communicates this clearly. He has been open with the fans and consistent from day one - no bs.

He had success with this system in Australia. So far it’s been mixed here, but he came in mid season and it’s quite a lot for the players to take in. But they do seem to have bought into it.

He comes across as honest and determined to me, and as committed to the job as you can be.

We’ve got a newish DoF, questions of ownership, not the ideal environment.

It might work, it might not, but he’s got a plan and deserves time to see it through.

Obviously a terrible run of results will pile the pressure on though.

IMO

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It's a good summarising of the situation so far.
The guy needs to be given more time .
The however is, we do not get the better players in that we hoped for then we need to change the way we are playing shape wise until the end of the season and the squad can be reshaped.
I actually like the way we are trying to play and think we have been very unlucky in many games.

Sent from my SM-G975U1 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by jacomo

Give this a go.

NM is clearly a serious, hard working pro who is putting everything he’s got into the job. He’s a student of the game and he’s got good people around him.

He’s got a very clear idea of how he wants his team to play. He communicates this clearly. He has been open with the fans and consistent from day one - no bs.

He had success with this system in Australia. So far it’s been mixed here, but he came in mid season and it’s quite a lot for the players to take in. But they do seem to have bought into it.

He comes across as honest and determined to me, and as committed to the job as you can be.

We’ve got a newish DoF, questions of ownership, not the ideal environment.

It might work, it might not, but he’s got a plan and deserves time to see it through.

Obviously a terrible run of results will pile the pressure on though.

IMO

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I don't disagree other than he is partial to BS. Some of his post match interviews have been worrying to say the least. He thought we played very well against Hearts for example. One thing about Hibs fans, and Scottish football fans in general is you can't pull the wool over their eyes with managerial speak as LJ found out. I've no doubt he's hard working and a good pro etc but that should be a pre requisite. The question is if he's up to the job. He's taken a colossal step up from CCM to Hibs and he needs to show very quickly that he's the right man for Hibs and the blood and thunder world of Scottish football where time is a luxury he won't get. Especially at our club. He's been here 5 months now and the performances are getting worse. It's a worrying trend.

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Originally Posted by jacomo

Give this a go.

NM is clearly a serious, hard working pro who is putting everything he’s got into the job. He’s a student of the game and he’s got good people around him.

He’s got a very clear idea of how he wants his team to play. He communicates this clearly. He has been open with the fans and consistent from day one - no bs.

He had success with this system in Australia. So far it’s been mixed here, but he came in mid season and it’s quite a lot for the players to take in. But they do seem to have bought into it.

He comes across as honest and determined to me, and as committed to the job as you can be.

We’ve got a newish DoF, questions of ownership, not the ideal environment.

It might work, it might not, but he’s got a plan and deserves time to see it through.

Obviously a terrible run of results will pile the pressure on though.

IMO

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Good post :aok: I’m not convinced that will be enough to keep him in post if things are failing based on the way the previous incumbents have been treated but I think you make a lot of fair points.

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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

If Hibs collapse in the run of fixtures over the next 5-6 weeks then I think NM will be in danger of losing his job. Given the run of fixtures, it's going to be a very tough ask for this side to stay in touch with the European places.

Most of us thought we had a better squad than results under Johnson in the league suggested this season. Turns out that NM hasn't been able to get too much of a tune from them either. Now were often debating formations and set up etc. I don't think NM has helped himself here at times, but the bottom line is that we have too many players who aren't good enough, no matter how you set them up.

Whatever happens, if NM goes, Kensall should also be under scrutiny. He's presided over an on-going shambles when it comes to recruitment.

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I am honestly struggling to comprehend chat about emptying Montgomery already. Jeez. But when you look at our upcoming run

This place is going to be even more nuts than normal when we take about 5 points in our next 6 league games

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Originally Posted by .Sean.

I am honestly struggling to comprehend chat about emptying Montgomery already. Jeezo

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You aren't really though are you? It's not like the mind blowing football and relentless positive results have convinced you so entirely that we have the right man?

For my money, you could stick Monty on gardening leave and put Gray in control. You'd be done with this one system only pish, get better performances out of Boyle and Vente, and the results would likely improve too.

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Originally Posted by Stubbsy90+2

Good post :aok: I’m not convinced that will be enough to keep him in post if things are failing based on the way the previous incumbents have been treated but I think you make a lot of fair points.

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Cheers pal.

Obvs we all hope for the best. Good luck to us!

One thing I do wonder is whether this supposed investment from Foley et al will bring pressure to change our system. I think the City group (as well as wanting all their teams to play in sky blue) also encourage the Pep tactics across all their teams.

Would Foley push us to play similar tactics to Bournemouth, so that any loanees can play under a similar system whilst with us?

If so, I don’t know how Hibs or NM would react to that.

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Originally Posted by Since452

I don't disagree other than he is partial to BS. Some of his post match interviews have been worrying to say the least. He thought we played very well against Hearts for example. One thing about Hibs fans, and Scottish football fans in general is you can't pull the wool over their eyes with managerial speak as LJ found out. I've no doubt he's hard working and a good pro etc but that should be a pre requisite. The question is if he's up to the job. He's taken a colossal step up from CCM to Hibs and he needs to show very quickly that he's the right man for Hibs and the blood and thunder world of Scottish football where time is a luxury he won't get. Especially at our club. He's been here 5 months now and the performances are getting worse. It's a worrying trend.

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You’re entitled to your opinion of course, but I think a manager’s post match comments are often directed towards the team rather than the fans.

On a number of occasions, Alex Ferguson would give his team an absolute roasting in the dressing room, then say ‘I’m about to go out there and defend yous lot to the media, prove to me you deserve that’.

I think we were marginally better than Hearts, they changed their system to adapt to us, not the other way around. We were undone by a Rocky mistake and a very good Shankland finish imo.

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Originally Posted by Wilson

You aren't really though are you? It's not like the mind blowing football and relentless positive results have convinced you so entirely that we have the right man?

For my money, you could stick Monty on gardening leave and put Gray in control. You'd be done with this one system only pish, get better performances out of Boyle and Vente, and the results would likely improve too.

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What would David Gray do differently when changes are needed and he looks to the same benches that Monty has had over his time with us? The bench in our last game was:

Johnson
Stevenson
Harbottle
Jeggo
Rudi
Mcallister
Clelland
Landers
Mckirdy

So 5 youngsters, McKirdy coming back from health issues and Montgomery saying he probably shouldn’t have even played the ten minutes he did. What would Gray do differently with the realistic options he had in Stevenson, Harbottle & Jeggo.

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Originally Posted by The Modfather

What would David Gray do differently when changes are needed and he looks to the same benches that Monty has had over his time with us? The bench in our last game was:

Johnson
Stevenson
Harbottle
Jeggo
Rudi
Mcallister
Clelland
Landers
Mckirdy

So 5 youngsters, McKirdy coming back from health issues and Montgomery saying he probably shouldn’t have even played the ten minutes he did. What would Gray do differently with the realistic options he had in Stevenson, Harbottle & Jeggo.

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Small sample size but we looked much tighter defensively during Gray's games earlier this season (much better away than at home against Villa and then a good defensive performance in Aberdeen).

So I'd expect to see consistency at CB, slightly better defensive cover for the defence, probably by playing Jeggo every week in front of them.

I don't think Gray would have Levitt making the sort of passes in the sort of position that he was caught out in against St Johnstone.

And I think we'd see more of the front 3 that most folk crave - Youan, Vente (right up front) and Boyle. Worth remembering that they had some bad games together under Johnson at the start of the season though.

With the same personnel he's still be up a gum tree when it came to making subs late in games but Johnson sort of got round that last season by making fewer subs and sticking with his favoured starting line up through good and bad. It only really ended up backfiring against Hearts in the last game.


I'm not for a second saying we should be sacking Monty, but I think his philosophy and our current group of players without reinforcements will get us nowhere fast (albeit it might work out longer term, with the right backing.)