Share Transfers Agreed/Cooling off period

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Originally Posted by brog

To cheer me up after yesterday's debacle I read the whole BDO document of 26 July, sad I know! I have some questions for our resident experts & some separate comments.

Q1. Yams turnover increased from 2011 to 2012 by £1.8mm yet their profit of £0.5mm turned into a loss of £1.6mm. So effectively £3.9mm worse off in 2012. Can anyone remember why?
Q2. On P4 it states circa £900k has been received from ticket sales ( net of VAT =£750k ). On P14, receipts & payments it shows an exact total of £813,195.83 & on P15 it shows the RBS season ticket a/c as holding £803,396.70! On P7 it states that £125k is still held by the agency & will be released at set times after the 1st home game. i know the figures on P14 are a trading a/c so I'm guessing the £813K includes VAT + £125k still to come = the circa £900k quoted on P4. Does this make sense?
Q3 The trading a/c figures show a surplus of £958,477 since Admin. There's been some comment on here that if Yams are liquidated shortly there will be some £600k to pay to creditors but is that correct? This trading a/c is a snapshot in time & there will be further income & expenditure since the cut off date. Assuming extra income from derby is offset by wages (approx £200k) there are VAT liabilities of minimum £250k, PAYE/NIB of about £140k & football debts of £535k, that doesn't leave too much to distribute.

Didn't mean this to be so lengthy, would appreciate comments & I'll post some more shortly.

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Originally Posted by Part/Time Supporter

Sorry, but that's a load of nonsense.

1. The "profits" under Romanov (if there were any) were due to his write offs of debt, not actual trading.

2. Trading account figures won't include VAT in income and will include PAYE/NIC costs in wages.

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There was £7.9M in debt forgiveness by UBIG which papered over what would have been a huge loss. It was highlighted way back in 2011 that these accounts had been manipulated, but everything was rosy as far as the Yams were concerned.

Edit - I've just checked their 2009/10 accounts which showed a loss of £8.63M - so without the debt forgiveness in the 10/11 accounts, losses would have been pretty much the same, give or take.

OK, one last question & a few comments.
Q4 Yams ( supposedly ) sold approx 7,000 seasons pre admin & 3,000 since. Income shows at £1.4mm & £900k respectively. In other words average income increased by 50% per ticket, from £200 to £300. Does that make sense?

Comments
1. 24 members of Yam staff have been working for free since Admin. This is obviously not sustainable but I find it shameful when Bryan Jackson is charging approx £500 per hour!
2. The post Admin cake bake donations have been ring fenced & totalled £48k. That's just under 11p for each of the 400,000!!
3. The leasehold property at HWU was valued in books at £2.15mm, now shown as NIL, big team right enough.

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Originally Posted by brog

To cheer me up after yesterday's debacle I read the whole BDO document of 26 July, sad I know! I have some questions for our resident experts & some separate comments.

Q1. Yams turnover increased from 2011 to 2012 by £1.8mm yet their profit of £0.5mm turned into a loss of £1.6mm. So effectively £3.9mm worse off in 2012. Can anyone remember why?
Q2. On P4 it states circa £900k has been received from ticket sales ( net of VAT =£750k ). On P14, receipts & payments it shows an exact total of £813,195.83 & on P15 it shows the RBS season ticket a/c as holding £803,396.70! On P7 it states that £125k is still held by the agency & will be released at set times after the 1st home game. i know the figures on P14 are a trading a/c so I'm guessing the £813K includes VAT + £125k still to come = the circa £900k quoted on P4. Does this make sense?
Q3 The trading a/c figures show a surplus of £958,477 since Admin. There's been some comment on here that if Yams are liquidated shortly there will be some £600k to pay to creditors but is that correct? This trading a/c is a snapshot in time & there will be further income & expenditure since the cut off date. Assuming extra income from derby is offset by wages (approx £200k) there are VAT liabilities of minimum £250k, PAYE/NIB of about £140k & football debts of £535k, that doesn't leave too much to distribute.

Didn't mean this to be so lengthy, would appreciate comments & I'll post some more shortly.

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1. The half million profit in 2011 was arrived at after debt forgiveness of £8.8m so they really made a loss of £8.3m

2. The receipts & payments figure (£813k) is net of VAT, but includes the £125k still to come from the agency (also net of VAT) - that is probably included in the Sales invoice ledger figure at the bottom of P15. The £803k is a cash at bank figure.

3. You're right that the account is a snapshot of how things stood at 26 July and the cash figure will be much reduced by the time a CVA or liquidation happens. In the case of liquidation all cash that is left would go to the creditors, in a CVA it would probably be retained by the incoming owners. The football debts will be due after the administration finishes - for a liquidation they would not be payable unless as a condition of a newco gaining admission to the league, for administration the new owners would have to fund them.

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Originally Posted by brog

Q4 Yams ( supposedly ) sold approx 7,000 seasons pre admin & 3,000 since. Income shows at £1.4mm & £900k respectively. In other words average income increased by 50% per ticket, from £200 to £300. Does that make sense?

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Before admin fans were buying tickets to watch football, after admin they were buying them so that the club could survive so it's plausible that more expensive tickets were bought as they became more emotionally valuable

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Originally Posted by Caversham Green

1. The half million profit in 2011 was arrived at after debt forgiveness of £8.8m so they really made a loss of £8.3m

2. The receipts & payments figure (£813k) is net of VAT, but includes the £125k still to come from the agency (also net of VAT) - that is probably included in the Sales invoice ledger figure at the bottom of P15. The £803k is a cash at bank figure.

3. You're right that the account is a snapshot of how things stood at 26 July and the cash figure will be much reduced by the time a CVA or liquidation happens. In the case of liquidation all cash that is left would go to the creditors, in a CVA it would probably be retained by the incoming owners. The football debts will be due after the administration finishes - for a liquidation they would not be payable unless as a condition of a newco gaining admission to the league, for administration the new owners would have to fund them.

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Thanks Cav/Sergey/PTS - it did seem strange to me that BDO show a profit of £511k in 2011 but directly underneath state, " The Club had traded at a loss for several years with these losses being underwritten by UBIG. " There's quite a difference between underwritten & written off!

While there is a captive audience of the financial sages.
When they put the debt owed to HMRC in their 11/12 accounts in full. If they had just put what was owed via their scheduled payments into that years accounts would HMRC be a creditor for the full amount or just what was owed to the placing in admin ?
Hope that makes sense. Felt like mandarin chinese when I was trying to word it.

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Originally Posted by Treadstone

While there is a captive audience of the financial sages.
When they put the debt owed to HMRC in their 11/12 accounts in full. If they had just put what was owed via their scheduled payments into that years accounts would HMRC be a creditor for the full amount or just what was owed to the placing in admin ?
Hope that makes sense. Felt like mandarin chinese when I was trying to word it.

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The accounts have to show the clubs state of affairs at the balance sheet date, therefore they have to show all liabilities regardless of when they fall due. That means that they couldn't have just included the scheduled payments.

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Originally Posted by Treadstone

While there is a captive audience of the financial sages.
When they put the debt owed to HMRC in their 11/12 accounts in full. If they had just put what was owed via their scheduled payments into that years accounts would HMRC be a creditor for the full amount or just what was owed to the placing in admin ?
Hope that makes sense. Felt like mandarin chinese when I was trying to word it.

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Regardless of how the yams displayed the liability in their "accounts", HMRC are entitled to claim the full amount from the admin.

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Originally Posted by Caversham Green

The accounts have to show the clubs state of affairs at the balance sheet date, therefore they have to show all liabilities regardless of when they fall due. That means that they couldn't have just included the scheduled payments.

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Cheers Cav.

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Originally Posted by brog

OK, one last question & a few comments.
Q4 Yams ( supposedly ) sold approx 7,000 seasons pre admin & 3,000 since. Income shows at £1.4mm & £900k respectively. In other words average income increased by 50% per ticket, from £200 to £300. Does that make sense?

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They had "early bird" style pricing which will account for some of that.

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Originally Posted by Golden Fleece

Others have made it clear that the SPFL were not in a position to do anything because they might have faced a legal challenge.

So I have a question for you, Desantos.

I've been following this thread from the start, and the most knowledgeable folks have been Caversham Green, Cropleywasgod and Sergey. You appeared late in the day with, what appeared to be new knowledge at around the time UBIG or Ukio Bankas were going into administration (I can't remember which) however, and it is just my opinion, since then you have not contributed anything new. Mostly regurgitating the same things worded differently, so, can you clear up for me, and anybody else with similar thoughts, where do you get you information and what contacts and qualification you have to give your opinions?

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Original CV posted in your profile please and swear with all 6 fingers of one hand on the bible that your not a yam.

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Originally Posted by Hiberlin

Original CV posted in your profile please and swear with all 6 fingers of one hand on the bible that your not a yam.

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From now on all posts on this thread must be accompanied by full Harvard referencing and be linked to your Linkten profile which must have at least 5 independent approvers.

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Originally Posted by desantos0773

From now on all posts on this thread must be accompanied by full Harvard referencing and be linked to your Linkten profile which must have at least 5 independent approvers.

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Get a Hibs tattoo, much cheaper than all that time consuming and expensive educational credential stuff and you can flash it any time you want. A Hibs tat is for life though, not just the duration of any passing despots hold on your team:greengrin

Hearts reveal they sold 10,500 season tickets

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.co...kets-1-3030385

A club spokesperson said: “Hearts fans continue to prove that there is no-one else like them in Scottish football. :jamboak: “The support they have given the club has been tremendous and everybody is looking forward to seeing Tynecastle packed out this season.

:fenlonYou're still Donald ducked, just a pity Vlad has stolen most of it.

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Originally Posted by YehButNoBut

Hearts reveal they sold 10,500 season tickets

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.co...kets-1-3030385

A club spokesperson said: “Hearts fans continue to prove that there is no-one else like them in Scottish football. :jamboak: “The support they have given the club has been tremendous and everybody is looking forward to seeing Tynecastle packed out this season.

:fenlonYou're still Donald ducked.

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Administration is certainly a money spinner.:rolleyes::greengrin

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Originally Posted by Bostonhibby

Get a Hibs tattoo, much cheaper than all that time consuming and expensive educational credential stuff and you can flash it any time you want. A Hibs tat is for life though, not just the duration of any passing despots hold on your team:greengrin

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It's the one tattoo I've considered getting. Most football team are there through out your life (unless you are a Jambo of course). Wives and girlfriends come and go as do players and owners. It might be my middle age rebellion!

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Originally Posted by YehButNoBut

Hearts reveal they sold 10,500 season tickets

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.co...kets-1-3030385

A club spokesperson said: “Hearts fans continue to prove that there is no-one else like them in Scottish football. :jamboak: “The support they have given the club has been tremendous and everybody is looking forward to seeing Tynecastle packed out this season.

:fenlonYou're still Donald ducked, just a pity Vlad has stolen most of it.

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Yep, no one like them thankfully otherwise there'd be a lot more charities businesses and government organisations being bumped.

Hang on a minute though, there are similarities now, and yet to come with another former Top flight Scottish club, Rangers, now reformed as The Rangers, there are many likenesses...................what are the odds of a yam spokesman getting it wrong?

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Originally Posted by YehButNoBut

club spokesperson said: “Hearts fans continue to prove that there is no-one else like them in Scottish football. .

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There wont be much argument on here with that statement. I would extend it further to say there is no one like them in the world. Thankfully.

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Originally Posted by Hiberlin

Original CV posted in your profile please and swear with all 6 fingers of one hand on the bible that your not a yam.

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Ouch! I asked a question, got a satisfactory answer and Desantos has not taken exception to it, so why should anybody els?

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Originally Posted by Golden Fleece

Ouch! I asked a question, got a satisfactory answer and Desantos has not taken exception to it, so why should anybody els?

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Whoosh ! Six fingers gave it away.

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Originally Posted by YehButNoBut

Hearts reveal they sold 10,500 season tickets

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.co...kets-1-3030385

A club spokesperson said: “Hearts fans continue to prove that there is no-one else like them in Scottish football. :jamboak: “The support they have given the club has been tremendous and everybody is looking forward to seeing Tynecastle packed out this season.

:fenlonYou're still Donald ducked, just a pity Vlad has stolen most of it.

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And they're right there certainly is no one else quite like them, and their hasn't been since man evolved from the ape.

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Originally Posted by Treadstone

Whoosh ! Six fingers gave it away.

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Only a Yam would have missed that. :wink:

Sad state of affairs when all they have to get excited about is us being humped out of Europe.

Sooner they dissappear the better:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=plcp&v=pYQ8AtCl9es

Meanwhile FoH report "5.8K pledgers, slow over the last few days"

I guess they should have paid for an advert in a decent paper, then again it would have missed it's target audience.

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Originally Posted by Dunderhall

Meanwhile FoH report "5.8K pledgers, slow over the last few days"

I guess they should have paid for an advert in a decent paper, then again it would have missed it's target audience.

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A decent paper? Take your pick from the EEN, Scotsman, the Daily weedgie rags or perhaps is your average yam more a Telegraph reader?

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Originally Posted by steakbake

A decent paper? Take your pick from the EEN, Scotsman, the Daily weedgie rags or perhaps is your average yam more a Telegraph reader?

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Financial Times? :greengrin

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Originally Posted by desantos0773

It's the one tattoo I've considered getting. Most football team are there through out your life (unless you are a Jambo of course). Wives and girlfriends come and go as do players and owners. It might be my middle age rebellion!

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My spiderman and superman tats are timeless.................:cb

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Originally Posted by steakbake

A decent paper? Take your pick from the EEN, Scotsman, the Daily weedgie rags or perhaps is your average yam more a Telegraph reader?

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Apparantly the newspaper sub-committee has now received the survey results and the Metro has been selected.

This will be approved at the next sub-committe meeting, to be arranged, and the recommendation passed up to the communication committee. If passed, the communication director will approve it and it goes to the finance director for approval. If the marketing director makes the final signature then it just depends on Ian Murray's (MP) availability for the photo shoot.

Should be available around 2014, subject to the Metro still trading.

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Originally Posted by Golden Fleece

Ouch! I asked a question, got a satisfactory answer and Desantos has not taken exception to it, so why should anybody els?

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I'm very diplomatic and try and bring the Hibs family together. Hate us all fighting and moaning at each other!

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Originally Posted by Dunderhall

Apparantly the newspaper sub-committee has now received the survey results and the Metro has been selected.

This will be approved at the next sub-committe meeting, to be arranged, and the recommendation passed up to the communication committee. If passed, the communication director will approve it and it goes to the finance director for approval. If the marketing director makes the final signature then it just depends on Ian Murray's (MP) availability for the photo shoot.

Should be available around 2014, subject to the Metro still trading.

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Couldn't Foulkes just demand an audience with Rupert Murdoch for the ads to be placed for free to save such an institution!?