SNP are lying b******s as well !

On the subject of ferries and apologies if this should be on a new thread. Can anyone shed any light on why the SG or CMAL or CalMac or whoever it is are so against building catamarans and are more in favour of mono hull ferries? I've watched and listened to various interviews on the subject and it seems to be a no brainer on the advantages of cats over mono hulls, namely half the price to build, half the price to run, double the speed, half the time to build and I think double the payload IIRC. Stuart Ballantyne who seems to have a very good pedigree in ship design and building had put together an £800m plan for 50 cats to serve the islands and create jobs for Clyde shipbuilders only to have that plan rejected this year and for the life of me I can't understand why.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andy Bee

On the subject of ferries and apologies if this should be on a new thread. Can anyone shed any light on why the SG or CMAL or CalMac or whoever it is are so against building catamarans and are more in favour of mono hull ferries? I've watched and listened to various interviews on the subject and it seems to be a no brainer on the advantages of cats over mono hulls, namely half the price to build, half the price to run, double the speed, half the time to build and I think double the payload IIRC. Stuart Ballantyne who seems to have a very good pedigree in ship design and building had put together an £800m plan for 50 cats to serve the islands and create jobs for Clyde shipbuilders only to have that plan rejected this year and for the life of me I can't understand why.

---

Might be to do with the ports not suitable? Just as likely to be brown envelope syndrome tho.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andy Bee

On the subject of ferries and apologies if this should be on a new thread. Can anyone shed any light on why the SG or CMAL or CalMac or whoever it is are so against building catamarans and are more in favour of mono hull ferries?

---

Good question. The ferry between St Margaret's Hope and Gills Bay is a catamaran, seems to handle the Pentland Firth seas ok.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andy Bee

On the subject of ferries and apologies if this should be on a new thread. Can anyone shed any light on why the SG or CMAL or CalMac or whoever it is are so against building catamarans and are more in favour of mono hull ferries? I've watched and listened to various interviews on the subject and it seems to be a no brainer on the advantages of cats over mono hulls, namely half the price to build, half the price to run, double the speed, half the time to build and I think double the payload IIRC. Stuart Ballantyne who seems to have a very good pedigree in ship design and building had put together an £800m plan for 50 cats to serve the islands and create jobs for Clyde shipbuilders only to have that plan rejected this year and for the life of me I can't understand why.

---

Even better if they built some bridges. [emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Even better if they built some bridges. [emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

Tunnels, no weather problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marinello59

Looks like you are right, he wants Sturgeon and others in the witness box. Apparently proving misfeasance is incredibly difficult so this may prove to be a costly mistake by him. The man is an absolute disgrace but impossible to ignore.

---

I think he crowdfunded his last legal costs during the sex pest case.

Wouldn’t surprise me if his costs are being paid again. Don’t think he would try it because it could be a big financial hit

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andy Bee

On the subject of ferries and apologies if this should be on a new thread. Can anyone shed any light on why the SG or CMAL or CalMac or whoever it is are so against building catamarans and are more in favour of mono hull ferries? I've watched and listened to various interviews on the subject and it seems to be a no brainer on the advantages of cats over mono hulls, namely half the price to build, half the price to run, double the speed, half the time to build and I think double the payload IIRC. Stuart Ballantyne who seems to have a very good pedigree in ship design and building had put together an £800m plan for 50 cats to serve the islands and create jobs for Clyde shipbuilders only to have that plan rejected this year and for the life of me I can't understand why.

---

Think that most of the Linkspans at the ports are designed with monohull designs in mind and there would need to be significant work done to reconfigure them to work with catamaran designs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryan91

Think that most of the Linkspans at the ports are designed with monohull designs in mind and there would need to be significant work done to reconfigure them to work with catamaran designs.

---

Apparently they can use the same infrastructure, it's a matter of designing the off ramp on the cat to match the ports it's servicing. I listened to an interview with Balantyne and he states that very few ports would need altering and they'd be retrofitted quite easily and cheaply if needs be. Dr Alf Baird gives a presentation on the advantages of catamarans on Orkney

It was a long time ago but I vaguely remember reading that for ferries, catamaran hulls would have more weather related down time compared to normal designs on more exposed routes due to heavier swell/waves off the Atlantic. On the other hand they were the better option for near shore or less exposed journeys.

Stuck in my mind since then and never thought to check if that's actually true or not mind!

https://x.com/paulhutcheon/status/17...dxJXScFNwz8V4A

You just know it wasn’t. He needs to go.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

https://x.com/paulhutcheon/status/17...dxJXScFNwz8V4A

You just know it wasn’t. He needs to go.

---

Really important vital question. Because no one in Scotland ever watches football matches other than on a legal stream.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grunt

Really important vital question. Because no one in Scotland ever watches football matches other than on a legal stream.

---

A Scottish minister can’t go breaking the law and be seen to undermine the business model of the national game.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

A Scottish minister can’t go breaking the law and be seen to undermine the business model of the national game.

---

I'm so glad that people in Scotland are focussing on the important issues of the day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grunt

I'm so glad that people in Scotland are focussing on the important issues of the day.

---

That’s my point. The SG can’t focus on important matters while he is in post.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I thought it was one of the kids that watched on thier own phone/ipad?

Apologies if I've missed summat somewhere

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Just Alf

I thought it was one of the kids that watched on thier own phone/ipad?

---

Completely irrelevant! Sack him anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Just Alf

I thought it was one of the kids that watched on thier own phone/ipad?

Apologies if I've missed summat somewhere

---

Yes but he let them hotspot his Internet allowance, he needed to let that happen. Government data is for government usage. He said it was when the fine came up, but he obviously knew it wasn't.

It's getting to be a ridiculous distraction. He obviously can't go on being a minister after lying to the press pack

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Yes but he let them hotspot his Internet allowance, he needed to let that happen. Government data is for government usage.

---

Sack him!! Parade his children through the streets of Paisley, and have the populace throw rotten eggs at him and his family. Hang him!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Yes but he let them hotspot his Internet allowance, he needed to let that happen. Government data is for government usage. He said it was when the fine came up, but he obviously knew it wasn't.

It's getting to be a ridiculous distraction. He obviously can't go on being a minister after lying to the press pack

---

The posts I was reading seemed to suggest he should be on the hook for watching an illegal stream as that wasn't becoming of a minister (and it wouldn't be if that was the case)



On another related point... assuming (I know, I know) ... the kids watched the game and maybe did a few other things of a night, with the majority of the usage TIME being official, I could understand why he'd think paying £3k out of the 11 was a fair offer. Clearly that doesn't take into account its actually data not time that's measured.

Maybe he knew the way it actually works and was just thinking of a way to get away with it? :dunno:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Yes but he let them hotspot his Internet allowance, he needed to let that happen. Government data is for government usage. He said it was when the fine came up, but he obviously knew it wasn't.

It's getting to be a ridiculous distraction. He obviously can't go on being a minister after lying to the press pack

---

He can because his leader is giving him his full backing. Basically they don't care what people think, they expect to be voted back in regardless.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marinello59

He can because his leader is giving him his full backing. Basically they don't care what people think, they expect to be voted back in regardless.

---

They seem to care what I think.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grunt

Sack him!! Parade his children through the streets of Paisley, and have the populace throw rotten eggs at him and his family. Hang him!!

---

Yeah agree with sack him as he lied when putting in an expense claim, saying he didn't hotspot when he knew he did. He lied a second time saying to press six months later that he hadn't watched football and either did his family, although he admitted his wife had told him before this.

The other three things you say are ludicrous and a sacking would do

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Yeah agree with sack him as he lied when putting in an expense claim, saying he didn't hotspot when he knew he did. He lied a second time saying to press six months later that he hadn't watched football and either did his family, although he admitted his wife had told him before this.

The other three things you say are ludicrous and a sacking would do

---

Has it been established he actually made a claim?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jack

Has it been established he actually made a claim?

---

Well he got queried about the bill in March, they said it was 11k. He said it was all parliamentary business, it couldn't be if he was hot spoting. He said since it was large and he hadn't changed the sim as supposed to, he would pay (we would) 3k from his government expenses.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Well he got queried about the bill in March, they said it was 11k. He said it was all parliamentary business, it couldn't be if he was hot spoting. He said since it was large and he hadn't changed the sim as supposed to, he would pay (we would) 3k from his government expenses.

---

So he didn't claim it as an expense. I think most would agree its an important difference.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jack

So he didn't claim it as an expense. I think most would agree its an important difference.

---

No he definitely did. He claimed 3k of it as an expense under false pretence. He knew it wasn't ministerial business but filled the 3k claim and hoped it would be forgotten. The papers got a hold of it 6 months later.

I think some people think he offered to pay the 3k himself but it was an expense claim. He offered to pay it him after a week of pressure

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

No he definitely did. He claimed 3k of it as an expense under false pretence. He knew it wasn't ministerial business but filled the 3k claim and hoped it would be forgotten. The papers got a hold of it 6 months later.

I think some people think he offered to pay the 3k himself but it was an expense claim. He offered to pay it him after a week of pressure

---

I've not really followed this but are all govt ministers on their own personal plan and pay for that as an out of pocket and claim back in the form of expenses?


Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Callum_62

I've not really followed this but are all govt ministers on their own personal plan and pay for that as an out of pocket and claim back in the form of expenses?


Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

---

No government pays and they wouldn't normally know about their bill. It was only because his bill was large and was queried that he found out and then offered to pay some from expenses

Notice the papers are saying too SNP politicians were having an affair which meant they broke covid rules. Normally you would say its a personal matter, but breaking covid rules makes it different. Boris was rightly fined for breaking the rules with his birthday party, SNP called for his sacking.

More importantly SNP were saying Hancocks affair was in the publics interest.

I personally don't think it's in the public interest

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Notice the papers are saying too SNP politicians were having an affair which meant they broke covid rules. Normally you would say its a personal matter, but breaking covid rules makes it different. Boris was rightly fined for breaking the rules with his birthday party, SNP called for his sacking.

More importantly SNP were saying Hancocks affair was in the publics interest.

I personally don't think it's in the public interest

---

Affair is fine, breaking covid rules is not. No exceptions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

No exceptions.

---

It must be nice to live in a world with such simple views on every topic under the sun.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grunt

It must be nice to live in a world with such simple views on every topic under the sun.

---

So it’s ok to lock down the whole country but not abide by those same rules? One law for the plebs and another for the elite?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

So it’s ok to lock down the whole country but not abide by those same rules? One law for the plebs and another for the elite?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

Course not but someone somewhere will have done worse so surely that’s the real issue and quite why thats not the front page news says it all….

(Did I get that riposte correct? [emoji83])

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

So it’s ok to lock down the whole country but not abide by those same rules? One law for the plebs and another for the elite?

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RyeSloan

Course not but someone somewhere will have done worse so surely that’s the real issue and quite why thats not the front page news says it all….

(Did I get that riposte correct? [emoji83])

---

Neither of these comments reflect what I said. I was criticising Ozy (who's usually sensible) for coming out with a definite blanket statement that something was wrong ("no exceptions") when he doesn't have any information about it other than a brief post on here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RyeSloan

(Did I get that riposte correct? [emoji83])

---

No. Hope that helps.

thank goodness, he could easily have faced calls for a sacking, good that there was rightly a four-month long investigation though, now about all the tax payers money given to friends and donors of the Tory party for worthless PPE, that's maybe not as serious as the 28p of stationary but, well :)

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.n...xw&oe=656D36CA

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cabbageandribs1875

thank goodness, he could easily have faced calls for a sacking, good that there was rightly a four-month long investigation though, now about all the tax payers money given to friends and donors of the Tory party for worthless PPE, that's maybe not as serious as the 28p of stationary but, well :)

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.n...xw&oe=656D36CA

---

Should immediately be another inquiry in to his use of the word stationary.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

Should immediately be another inquiry in to his use of the word stationary.

---

https://committees.parliament.uk/com...tary%20duties.

If Flynn had simply apologised for using House of Commons stationary for party political purpose , there would have been no inquiry.

Its Flynn who made a big issue out of nothing

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

Should immediately be another inquiry in to his use of the word stationary.

---

Stop.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by greenginger

https://committees.parliament.uk/com...tary%20duties.

If Flynn had simply apologised for using House of Commons stationary for party political purpose , there would have been no inquiry.

It's Flynn who made a big issue out of nothing

---

He said he wasn't using the stationery* for party political purposes. So why should he apologise? Would you apologise if you'd done nothing wrong?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grunt

He said he wasn't using the stationery* for party political purposes. So why should he apologise? Would you apologise if you'd done nothing wrong?

---

It was the Commissioners opinion that the stationary had been used for party political purposes (pretty obvious from description given) and that Flynn breached the Houses code of conduct.

Suppose Flynn didn’t believe rules made in Westminster applied to him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Stop.

---

[emoji1787][emoji1787] very good [emoji736]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by greenginger

It was the Commissioners opinion that the stationary had been used for party political purposes (pretty obvious from description given) and that Flynn breached the Houses code of conduct.

Suppose Flynn didn’t believe rules made in Westminster applied to him.

---

You've not answered my question. No matter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grunt

You've not answered my question. No matter.

---

The point is Flynn did something wrong and should have known it.

What I would do is of no consequence.

Surprised no posts on the PISA results, results of education standards across the world.

Tony Blair said education education education Nicola Sturgeon said when bringing in the new radical curriculum for excellence in 2015 2015: "Let me be clear – I want to be judged on this. If you are not, as First Minister, prepared to put your neck on the line on the education of our young people then what are you prepared to."


Well surely it's time to admit what many in education have been saying, curriculum for excellence is a disaster. Pre SNP Scotland was well above England for maths, reading and science. It's now well below and worryingly it's dropping fast.

Uk when grouping maths and English is about at the top in Europe and ahead of most in Western Europe there is no shame in copying that, its too important
Uk is above the worldwide OECD average for maths and science but Scotland is now bellow

Attachment 27447

https://archive.ph/myXxZ

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Surprised no posts on the PISA results, results of education standards across the world.

Tony Blair said education education education Nicola Sturgeon said when bringing in the new radical curriculum for excellence in 2015 2015: "Let me be clear – I want to be judged on this. If you are not, as First Minister, prepared to put your neck on the line on the education of our young people then what are you prepared to."


Well surely it's time to admit what many in education have been saying, curriculum for excellence is a disaster. Pre SNP Scotland was well above England for maths, reading and science. It's now well below and worryingly it's dropping fast.

Uk when grouping maths and English is about at the top in Europe and ahead of most in Western Europe there is no shame in copying that, its too important
Uk is above the worldwide OECD average for maths and science but Scotland is now bellow

Attachment 27447

https://archive.ph/myXxZ

---

I agree on this. Education too important to be below average at.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Surprised no posts on the PISA results, results of education standards across the world.

Tony Blair said education education education Nicola Sturgeon said when bringing in the new radical curriculum for excellence in 2015 2015: "Let me be clear – I want to be judged on this. If you are not, as First Minister, prepared to put your neck on the line on the education of our young people then what are you prepared to."


Well surely it's time to admit what many in education have been saying, curriculum for excellence is a disaster. Pre SNP Scotland was well above England for maths, reading and science. It's now well below and worryingly it's dropping fast.

Uk when grouping maths and English is about at the top in Europe and ahead of most in Western Europe there is no shame in copying that, its too important
Uk is above the worldwide OECD average for maths and science but Scotland is now bellow

Attachment 27447

https://archive.ph/myXxZ

---

Sturgeon’s failure to deliver laid bare.
The more worrying thing is the Scottish Goverment’s laid back reaction to the results. Nobody seems to care that much.

Our Government talks transparency but tries to avoid it at every turn. Yet another needless and expensive court battle.

https://news.sky.com/story/scottish-...dence-13024225

I'm sure it's just a coincidence but I saw on the front page of the Hootsman this morning that MSPs must tell the parliamentary authorities if they're planning on taking their mobile device abroad over Christmas.

Today I received an email from my mobile data provider reminding me to check out what data roaming was included in my plan and to buy a bolt on if going outside my free roaming area over the Festive period.

so what has wee willie rennie been up to, another Libdem that picks on women (2) Emma Walker (@EmmaWalkerCEO) / X (twitter.com) and it's not like co*k-hamilton to lie eh

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cabbageandribs1875

so what has wee willie rennie been up to, another Libdem that picks on women (2) Emma Walker (@EmmaWalkerCEO) / X (twitter.com) and it's not like co*k-hamilton to lie eh

---

All the features of a low rent cult.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla..._type=web_link


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No end to the SNP’s income tax game…

The putative 52% (Income + NI) for earnings between £43.5k and £50k remains.

And earnings over £100k to £125k will now be taxed at 69.5% I reckon. (45% rate + 22.5% for loss of personal allowance + 2% NI).

And a good dollop of fiscal drag on the band levels as well with even the intermediate band level not being raised.

Another additional tax bracket confirmed in the budget.

There were mixed views on the likely effectiveness of such a move so it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

I can't help but think that 6 different tax brackets in Scotland is reaching the point of overkill. There must be a way to simplify it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...itics-67759418

New 45% tax band in Scotland for 75k - 125k. Top band also rising by 1%.

Can only be a good thing IMO. The whole public sector is a mess right now and money desperately needs to come from somewhere and this seems a good a place as any to try and make some.

The only risk as always with Scottish only tax hikes is pushing certain high paid jobs down south.

2% wasn’t such a large gap between Scotland and England however an extra 5% on 50k of income is a lot of money, as is 3% extra on anything thereafter.

Paying and extra 5k or so each year in tax might be enough to make someone reassess where they work or a business reassess where they base. Guess there’s no perfect solution (other than England raising its tax to match ours but seems very unlikely).

Just caught the end of it, sounds like they are hoping to raise £80m from taxing workers more but are spending £140m on a council tax freeze so still much worse off.

£1.5m for school meal debt, I don’t know what this is for. I guess it’s maybe parents who are not entitled to free school meals sending their kids for them anyway but not paying? My kids only left school a year ago but that wasn’t an option then, if you wanted a meal in the school you had to pay for it, there was no option to take the food and add it to your debt.

You could see a lot of high earners decide to top up their pension funds taking a bigger chunk of their income out of the tax system altogether.

May even lead to an overall tax proceeds reduction.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...c018a66940.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...c018a66940.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

A lot of extra tax for someone not earning outrageous amounts. £50k a year might be pretty good wages but if that person was the sole earner in a family £1500 is a big chunk extra to lose from your disposable income.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...c018a66940.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

If this is accurate then the numbers may not be enough for many to pick up sticks and move down south, I do think however it would need to be supported by an improvement in services though.

On other hand, Labour in Wales seem to have gone all cost cutting (with a little tax hiking on businesses)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...c018a66940.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

It will be B&M for the Christmas shopping in the Mathieson household. Talk about a double whammy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

It will be B&M for the Christmas shopping in the Mathieson household. Talk about a double whammy.

---

****in hilarious.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Just Alf

If this is accurate then the numbers may not be enough for many to pick up sticks and move down south, I do think however it would need to be supported by an improvement in services though.

On other hand, Labour in Wales seem to have gone all cost cutting (with a little tax hiking on businesses)

---

Council tax a lot lower in Scotland, so it balances out a bit. And you get quite a lot for your money compared to down south.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paul1642

A lot of extra tax for someone not earning outrageous amounts. £50k a year might be pretty good wages but if that person was the sole earner in a family £1500 is a big chunk extra to lose from your disposable income.

---

It’s not £1,500k for a 50k earner tho.

Add in the NI trap and it’s £3k of a difference.

All those figures above £50k need that added on. It’s not income tax but it’s a direct salary tax so not sure why these tables always miss it out.

Larger sole earners get hammered by these tax rates compared to a dual income household that end up at the same top line that’s for sure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RyeSloan

It’s not £1,500k for a 50k earner tho.

Add in the NI trap and it’s £3k of a difference.

All those figures above £50k need that added on. It’s not income tax but it’s a direct salary tax so not sure why these tables always miss it out.

Larger sole earners get hammered by these tax rates compared to a dual income household that end up at the same top line that’s for sure.

---

Is our NI different from England?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Where's the best place for a run down?

Specifically looking to see if we're matching the UK government with childcare expansion where rUK are rolling out funded childcare for children as young as 9 months eventually. I assume it would be now that any changes were announced on this front anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Is our NI different from England?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

The difference according to HMRC is £1550 per annum and NI is exactly the same.

Attachment 27510Attachment 27511

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by degenerated

The difference according to HMRC is £1550 per annum and NI is exactly the same.

Attachment 27510Attachment 27511

---

Thought so.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Council tax a lot lower in Scotland, so it balances out a bit. And you get quite a lot for your money compared to down south.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

I just checked a few English councils for a house valued at £100k in 1991 and the charges were all lower than here, London only charge a third of what we pay here!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hibee

I just checked a few English councils for a house valued at £100k in 1991 and the charges were all lower than here, London only charge a third of what we pay here!

---

There's no answer to that. I'm moving to England tomorrow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Council tax a lot lower in Scotland, so it balances out a bit. And you get quite a lot for your money compared to down south.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

At the expense of public services.

We've been here a million times before - Scottish councils are having to slash services and these impact the most on the most vulnerable.

Nearly a quarter of Scottish councils have already warned that they will soon be unable to fulfil their statutory duties. More will follow. That is fundamental failure and it touches upon everyone's lives, from when your birth is registered to when your death is registered and a gazillion things inbetween.

And don't forget there is a funding drag at play - English councils were eighteen months to two years ahead of Scotland in feeling the pain. That's why English councils are issuing section 114s - bankruptcy - whereas Scottish councils are only teetering on the brink (it is a different piece of legislation here and it is section 95 of that, expect to hear that term far more frequently in the coming months).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

We've been here a million times before - Scottish councils are having to slash services and these impact the most on the most vulnerable.

---

What do you suggest? You made a joke earlier when it was pointed out that SG was increasing income tax.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grunt

What do you suggest? You made a joke earlier when it was pointed out that SG was increasing income tax.

---

Suggest for what?

I was pointing out the flaw in Ozy's post where he suggested the rise in income tax was offset by lower council tax. Even if that is true for everybody, everywhere, all of the time, which of course it isn't, it portrays lower council taxes as a virtue.

At this moment they are not. The kind of reductions councils have faced, are facing and will continue to face, damage communities and damage lives.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grunt

There's no answer to that. I'm moving to England tomorrow.

---

Make your way to the Westminster council area, they seem to be the cheapest.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hibee

I just checked a few English councils for a house valued at £100k in 1991 and the charges were all lower than here, London only charge a third of what we pay here!

---

Not sure where you're getting your figures from but the average for a Band D in England is £2065, I'm a Band E and pay £2312 but that includes water. The English figure needs approx £450 - £500 added on for water. TBF the lowest council tax charge in the country is in England, 2 guesses the area that charges under a grand for a property worth just short of £1m?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hibee

Make your way to the Westminster council area, they seem to be the cheapest.

---

Ahh beat me to it :greengrin

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andy Bee

Not sure where you're getting your figures from but the average for a Band D in England is £2065, I'm a Band E and pay £2312 but that includes water. The English figure needs approx £450 - £500 added on for water. TBF the lowest council tax charge in the country is in England, 2 guesses the area that charges under a grand for a property worth just short of £1m?

---

I just looked at a few council websites for the charges.

We pay £3058 for band F which is for valuations up to £106k, Sunderland pay £2,320.16 for their band E which is for valuations up to £120k but live in Westminster and you only pay £1,114 for the same band!

The SG have frozen Council tax which is not linked to ability to pay and have put up the taxes of high earners linked to their ability to pay. That used to be the sort of thing Labour applauded. Changed days.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Is our NI different from England?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

NI is charged using rUK tax bands.

So 12% (soon to be 10%) up to £50k and 2% after. Matches the tax band of 20% then 40%. So effective 32% and 42% rates.

Scotland’s higher (or not so higher now!) tax band starts at £43.5k so that’s where the kicker comes in as the NI rate is not reduced until £50k. So a marginal rate of 54% in that bracket just now.

Edit: To be fair though I have had a wee double count earlier ;-). The difference is indeed 20% but only on the total of about £7k so the c£1.5k more is correct. Happy to admit my arithmetic is not always best and stand corrected [emoji736][emoji2957].

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

The SG have frozen Council tax which is not linked to ability to pay and have put up the taxes of high earners linked to their ability to pay. That used to be the sort of thing Labour applauded. Changed days.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

Council tax freezes are regressive. The financial benefits are greater for those in the highest bands.

And the poorest in our society gain nothing from a council tax freeze because they are exempt. But, almost ironically, they lose out twice as they are more likely to benefit from the full range of council services.

There may be a time and place for freezing or reducing council taxes. But it's not when councils are on their knees and the most vulnerable members of society are suffering.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

Council tax freezes are regressive. The financial benefits are greater for those in the highest bands.

And the poorest in our society gain nothing from a council tax freeze because they are exempt. But, almost ironically, they lose out twice as they are more likely to benefit from the full range of council services.

There may be a time and place for freezing or reducing council taxes. But it's not when councils are on their knees and the most vulnerable members of society are suffering.

---

It’s been funded by raising income tax.
Has Labour in Wales come up with a better solution?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

Council tax freezes are regressive. The financial benefits are greater for those in the highest bands.

And the poorest in our society gain nothing from a council tax freeze because they are exempt. But, almost ironically, they lose out twice as they are more likely to benefit from the full range of council services.

There may be a time and place for freezing or reducing council taxes. But it's not when councils are on their knees and the most vulnerable members of society are suffering.

---

It's not only the poorest in society that need protecting now it's the people on an average wage who are not exempt and whilst I agree on council tax freezing not being the solution it's going to help a lot of people especially when they have mortgages. The jury is out until we get to the point of the SG honouring the 5% they're promising councils to make up the shortfall

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andy Bee

It's not only the poorest in society that need protecting now it's the people on an average wage who are not exempt and whilst I agree on council tax freezing not being the solution it's going to help a lot of people especially when they have mortgages. The jury is out until we get to the point of the SG honouring the 5% they're promising councils to make up the shortfall

---

Yep working poor are an enormous issue poverty wise. Watched c4 news a family in Birmingham both working guy was an electrician with a couple of kids all living in a single bed and breakfast room as couldn't afford private landlord rent. Absolutely heartbreaking to be honest. Despicable what this government has been able to get away with by not helping families like this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...c018a66940.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

I'm pretty much bang in the middle of that table and basically pay UK income tax in a simplified process but German social security, health insurance, pension payments, unemployment insurance and nursing care insurance. Long story short I pay a **** load more tax than your average UK citizen but am happy to do so because the return in services I get is worth every penny and it's not only me that benefits from those services but society as a whole. If it's put into value for money context then those who earn the least get the best value and that's how it should be and that's what the Scottish Government are trying to emulate, albeit with one hand tied behind their backs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

Council tax freezes are regressive. The financial benefits are greater for those in the highest bands.

And the poorest in our society gain nothing from a council tax freeze because they are exempt. But, almost ironically, they lose out twice as they are more likely to benefit from the full range of council services.

There may be a time and place for freezing or reducing council taxes. But it's not when councils are on their knees and the most vulnerable members of society are suffering.

---

The flip side of this is that the poorest also aren’t going to be hit by the income tax rate changes at all because they are either also exempt (if earning below the tax free allowance) or earning well below the higher bands (especially if they are also paying into a pension.

There are however a lot of people earning a salary well below the amount required to be hit by the new tax rates who live in Council tax band D or E houses who have just avoided a £100 - £200 annual increase on their bills as well as saving 2% on NI.

It’s been done to death on this forum and I’m not looking to start another council tax debate however at least income tax is relative to income rather than your homes value 35 years ago which also benefits certain richer people who’s now very valuable home is in a location which is much more desirable now than it was 35 years ago (much of leith for example).

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/tax-calculator/

Money saving expert have a handy tax calculator which lets you factor in pension contributions, tax code as well as being a Scottish tax payer (probably not yet updated with yesterdays changes).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

It’s been funded by raising income tax.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

That’s not true.

COSLA (incidentally chaired by an SNP councillor) released a statement last night saying the budget left a shortfall of £350 million for next year.

Are you saying they are lying?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andy Bee

It's not only the poorest in society that need protecting now it's the people on an average wage who are not exempt and whilst I agree on council tax freezing not being the solution it's going to help a lot of people especially when they have mortgages. The jury is out until we get to the point of the SG honouring the 5% they're promising councils to make up the shortfall

---

I take your point, it’s true. As COSLA have stated already, the commitment from SG leaves them hundreds of millions short though.

And when I talk about the most vulnerable I do sort of mean the working poor too. The cuts to non-statutory council services hit them harder than they do to someone who is middle income or richer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

Suggest for what?

---

What would you suggest the Scottish Budget should include? You're very quick to say that this is wrong and that won't work, I'd like to hear what your Scottish Budget would look like, and how you'd avoid all the problems you point out from the SNP budget.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paul1642

The flip side of this is that the poorest also aren’t going to be hit by the income tax rate changes at all because they are either also exempt (if earning below the tax free allowance) or earning well below the higher bands (especially if they are also paying into a pension.

There are however a lot of people earning a salary well below the amount required to be hit by the new tax rates who live in Council tax band D or E houses who have just avoided a £100 - £200 annual increase on their bills as well as saving 2% on NI.

It’s been done to death on this forum and I’m not looking to start another council tax debate however at least income tax is relative to income rather than your homes value 35 years ago which also benefits certain richer people who’s now very valuable home is in a location which is much more desirable now than it was 35 years ago (much of leith for example).

---

Well, let’s face it, the party in power came into government with a promise to reform a broken system of local government finance. They have only had 16 years though…….

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grunt

What would you suggest the Scottish Budget should include? You're very quick to say that this is wrong and that won't work, I'd like to hear what your Scottish Budget would look like, and how you'd avoid all the problems you point out from the SNP budget.

---

Behave yourself! As a citizen and a taxpayer why shouldn’t I be free to criticise either of these two stale, out of ideas, fag-end governments?

They are just so, so poor!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

Behave yourself! As a citizen and a taxpayer why shouldn’t I be free to criticise either of these two stale, out of ideas, fag-end governments?

They are just so, so poor!

---

Who would do better? The evidence from Wales suggests not the Labour Party.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Who would do better?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

Thats’s ambition!!!

Stick with the pish we’ve been stuck with for years because they tell us we can’t do better?

People aren’t stupid. We recognise systemic failure when we see it and my god, it has been failure and it has been systemic with these two useless governments.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

Thats’s ambition!!!

Stick with the pish we’ve been stuck with for years because they tell us we can’t do better?

People aren’t stupid. We recognise systemic failure when they see it and my god, it has been failure and it has been systemic with these two useless governments.

---

Conflating both governments isn't fair imo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

Thats’s ambition!!!

Stick with the pish we’ve been stuck with for years because they tell us we can’t do better?

People aren’t stupid. We recognise systemic failure when we see it and my god, it has been failure and it has been systemic with these two useless governments.

---

So nobody else could do better? Fair enough.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

So nobody else could do better? Fair enough.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

Oh, I think a balloon with a face painted on it, tied to the top of a broomstick could do better. Unfortunately we got Humza and Shona instead 😢

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

Thats’s ambition!!!

Stick with the pish we’ve been stuck with for years because they tell us we can’t do better?

People aren’t stupid. We recognise systemic failure when we see it and my god, it has been failure and it has been systemic with these two useless governments.

---

That sounds like a great argument for independence rather than the same pish the current system has given us for decades if not centuries. There's no real reform on offer from Labour.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

That sounds like a great argument for independence rather than the same pish the current system has given us for decades if not centuries. There's no real reform on offer from Labour.

---

To be fair, he’s admitting that Labour don’t offer better. And we can see that with Wales.
There is plenty the SG are getting wrong but also a lot right.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

Thats’s ambition!!!

Stick with the pish we’ve been stuck with for years because they tell us we can’t do better?

People aren’t stupid. We recognise systemic failure when we see it and my god, it has been failure and it has been systemic with these two useless governments.

---

That's a terrible argument. At the moment it looks likely that Labour will continue with most of the Tory policies that has seen the UK become a laughing stock. They hardly have a unique policy of their own. The kind of tax system introduced yesterday used to be what Labour believed in but are niw too scared to even contemplate. The evidence that Labour could do better in Scotland is not supported by the fact that in Wales they actually do worse. And I think that the two bankrupt councils in England were Labour controlled. So forgive me if i dont believe that anything much will get better under Labour.The Scottish government could do better in some areas but I'm glad that it's SNP run and not Tory or tory lite.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

To be fair, he’s admitting that Labour don’t offer better. And we can see that with Wales.
There is plenty the SG are getting wrong but also a lot right.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

I like evidence. Let's wait and see if the voters return a Labur government. For the moment it's just desperation tactics by the two parties and their diehards that have held the pursestrings trying to justify over a decade's worth of failure.

You said that the rise in ncome tax was funding the council tax freeze. COSLA says otherwise. Who is in the wrong here, or dare I suggest,who isn't telling the truth?