SNP are lying b******s as well !

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Originally Posted by Skol

Are the GERS numbers not produced by the Scottish government or is it the Scottish part of the Westminster government? I get they are an extrapolation from other numbers and not totally accurate but they are a best estimation. I recall McKay was going to produce alternative GERS numbers but don’t think they were ever delivered.

I was trying to think of Tory policies that specifically were bad for scotlands economy and the only example I could think of was the carbon capture site. However I don’t think that was specifically targeting Scotland but instead chose other sites.

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Yes, you can quibble over bits of the GERS numbers, but they are most likely a reasonable ball park and are produced by Scotgov.

It's pointless to use them as an indicator for a post-Indy world though. Almost half the spend is things "for the benefit of Scotland" spent by UK gov. The amount Scotgov spends is almost entirely decided at Westminster (although can be varied a bit by local taxes). The amount of money raised through taxation is very largely decided at Westminster.

One of the key lessons from the pandemic is there's not much point of having charge of eg. health policy, if you don't control the spending necessary to support it. For example, you get furlough if/when England needs it, and if they don't, you don't.

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Originally Posted by Skol

I can see difference in policies between Westminster and holyrood, but the point made was that Tory policies specifically are bad for Scotland and to make us poorer. I don’t think that they are just bad for Scotland, but are bad for many parts of the UK.

Odd that you have brought in the taxation point as I don’t think that’s been discussed on this thread. When we voted for devolution I was against it, but I did vote in favour of the tax raising powers as I was pretty certain we would vote in favour of devolution and I felt in that case the tax raising powers were important.

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Yes, absolutely agree with that. Regional inequality is just as big a problem for other bits of the UK. IN fact it's even worse if you live in the poorer parts of England. Since you're not threatening independence and aren't a nuclear sub parking zone, you don't get any Barnett uplift either. They get well and truly shafted.

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

The party you support is in government in Wales. What have you done do mitigate policies there?

On the tax question, according to latest figures 55% of Scots pay less tax.

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I am a bit confused by your question given I don’t have a vote in wales or any kind of influence.

On tax, I think the difference in tax is minimal. As a coincidence I received a letter from hector this morning telling me I had overpaid by £70 and inviting me to request a refund. Not sure how that can happen when I am PAYE and had no change in employer or extra income. The letter does lay out how much tax I paid at each of the Scottish tax points so I will be able to work out my own position.

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Originally Posted by grunt

I can tell you're not an accountant, are you? :greengrin

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Ha ha true! :greengrin

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Originally Posted by grunt

Are you suggesting their might not be one?

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Oooh got me on a typo!

Yeah I am suggesting that. There will be no referendum, just like there wasn’t one all the other years she has claimed there would be.

She has been saying it for about 6 years now.


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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

Yes, you can quibble over bits of the GERS numbers, but they are most likely a reasonable ball park and are produced by Scotgov.

It's pointless to use them as an indicator for a post-Indy world though. Almost half the spend is things "for the benefit of Scotland" spent by UK gov. The amount Scotgov spends is almost entirely decided at Westminster (although can be varied a bit by local taxes). The amount of money raised through taxation is very largely decided at Westminster.

One of the key lessons from the pandemic is there's not much point of having charge of eg. health policy, if you don't control the spending necessary to support it. For example, you get furlough if/when England needs it, and if they don't, you don't.

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I agree with that and that’s why I think it’s important we see proposals on this from the SNP to better inform the debate. The absence of this makes it very difficult.

I suspect this will lead to someone stating the union need to make their case in reply. They don’t really as we know what we get and how it works. However I do agree that the UK government could and should do more. Sadly the current incumbents are not going to and we are stuck with in my view poor governments in both Westminster and holyrood. The missed opportunity with boris at the helm is massive.

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Originally Posted by Mcbizz1998

Oooh got me on a typo!

Yeah I am suggesting that. There will be no referendum, just like there wasn’t one all the other years she has claimed there would be.

She has been saying it for about 6 years now.


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Hang on... are you saying she shouldn't have waited on the pandemic nearing an end?

There's no glass ceiling for the Conservatives in England and Wales, or if there is it is set at a very high level. In that context it's quite a tough gig for Starmer to catch and defeat them. But he seems to have kept Labour ahead for most of the last four months and that's presumably due to a mix of Johnson's crash and Starmer's relatively good performance.

Bit of a challenge then for Elsie that in the same context her nationalists cannot emulate Starmer's Labour with a poll bounce majority for independence. The Conservatives here absolutely do have a glass ceiling and they also offer virtually everything you could want to drive Scottish voters towards the idea of independence ranging from a crap Tory leader to a malign/incompetent government and a rag-tag Cabinet of fellow traveller idiots and bad faith actors.

My suspicion is that the Salmond and Sturgeon record in government of the last 14 years is slowly catching up with them and this is leading to a stalling in confidence about their statements on both another referendum and independence itself. The only thing protecting their poll numbers at the moment is the Conservative glass ceiling and Scottish Labour being stuck in third place and struggling to get visible and to carve out electoral ground of their own.

So perhaps the Scottish electorate does increasingly realise that the 'SNP are lying *******s as well!' but currently those electors feel they have nowhere else credible to go...

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Originally Posted by Just Alf

Hang on... are you saying she shouldn't have waited on the pandemic nearing an end?

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Emm nope. Never said that and not sure where on earth you got that from?

Here she is 4 years ago - https://youtu.be/NrfSilGDfeI

Whatever happened to that referendum? Did she know about Covid ahead of time?

Btw I’m not saying there shouldn’t be a referendum, I hope there is, the separatists will lose again, probably by a larger margin. The point I’m making is sturgeon continues to dangle the carrot of a referendum (one she knows she won’t win) to remain in power - her fanatical supporters demand it. Quite amusing really.


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Originally Posted by Mcbizz1998

Emm nope. Never said that and not sure where on earth you got that from?

Here she is 4 years ago - https://youtu.be/NrfSilGDfeI

Whatever happened to that referendum? Did she know about Covid ahead of time?

Btw I’m not saying there shouldn’t be a referendum, I hope there is, the separatists will lose again, probably by a larger margin. The point I’m making is sturgeon continues to dangle the carrot of a referendum (one she knows she won’t win) to remain in power - her fanatical supporters demand it. Quite amusing really.


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I’d imagine he got it from the fact you finished your post with a dig about how many years she’s been talking about another referendum.

Would you expect her to stand and say “aye barry, we’ll get dragged out of the EU after all the lies of the referendum and brexit vote” at that time? As for what happened to it, you surely weren’t expecting to be filling out your no vote the very next day? Whenever her ideally planned date for this was; she didn’t know about covid ahead of time, but it did happen, as did a number of other blockers. It will happen, so you will get your wish.

Your posts make you seem more ‘on edge’ than “amused” about all this.

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Originally Posted by Skol

I am a bit confused by your question given I don’t have a vote in wales or any kind of influence.

On tax, I think the difference in tax is minimal. As a coincidence I received a letter from hector this morning telling me I had overpaid by £70 and inviting me to request a refund. Not sure how that can happen when I am PAYE and had no change in employer or extra income. The letter does lay out how much tax I paid at each of the Scottish tax points so I will be able to work out my own position.

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You're advocating that we stay in the UK, to be ruled by a party which England chooses (see 80 seat majority). My question re Wales was really about how they're dealing with devolution, and is it also affecting the people there. If 'Welsh' labour are not effective, I can see a surge of plaid cymru in the future.

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Originally Posted by Skol

I am a bit confused by your question given I don’t have a vote in wales or any kind of influence.

On tax, I think the difference in tax is minimal. As a coincidence I received a letter from hector this morning telling me I had overpaid by £70 and inviting me to request a refund. Not sure how that can happen when I am PAYE and had no change in employer or extra income. The letter does lay out how much tax I paid at each of the Scottish tax points so I will be able to work out my own position.

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Sounds like a scam. Any tax refund I’ve had comes by cheque.

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Originally Posted by WeeRussell

I’d imagine he got it from the fact you finished your post with a dig about how many years she’s been talking about another referendum.

Would you expect her to stand and say “aye barry, we’ll get dragged out of the EU after all the lies of the referendum and brexit vote” at that time? As for what happened to it, you surely weren’t expecting to be filling out your no vote the very next day? Whenever her ideally planned date for this was; she didn’t know about covid ahead of time, but it did happen, as did a number of other blockers. It will happen, so you will get your wish.

Your posts make you seem more ‘on edge’ than “amused” about all this.

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Did you watch the video? Or just start typing? It was from 2017, she said she would call it for autumn 2018/spring 2019….. that never happened. What was the blocker? Covid? Lol.


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Originally Posted by Skol

I agree with that and that’s why I think it’s important we see proposals on this from the SNP to better inform the debate. The absence of this makes it very difficult.

I suspect this will lead to someone stating the union need to make their case in reply. They don’t really as we know what we get and how it works. However I do agree that the UK government could and should do more. Sadly the current incumbents are not going to and we are stuck with in my view poor governments in both Westminster and holyrood. The missed opportunity with boris at the helm is massive.

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I've seen you post this line before, so will oblige. :wink:

We've no idea what the UK will become in the future. So many lies in the past doesn't fill me with confidence though.

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Originally Posted by Mcbizz1998

Did you watch the video? Or just start typing? It was from 2017, she said she would call it for autumn 2018/spring 2019….. that never happened. What was the blocker? Covid? Lol.


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Forgive me, I'm not as up on politics as you and many others, and my memory clearly isn't that sharp for going back 4 or 5 years.

Can you tell me if Boris and co told Nicola just to fire-on and let the people of Scotland decide their fate, and she just stalled (or kept dangling the carrot) for some reason?

I imagine at some point, Covid had an effect. But again, happy to stand corrected by those who know better.

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Originally Posted by greenginger

Sounds like a scam. Any tax refund I’ve had comes by cheque.

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I got the same (although in my case it was after doing my SA). You can request it through your hmrc online account which will reassure you it's not a scam.

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Originally Posted by WeeRussell

Forgive me, I'm not as up on politics as you and many others, and my memory clearly isn't that sharp for going back 4 or 5 years.

Can you tell me if Boris and co told Nicola just to fire-on and let the people of Scotland decide their fate, and she just stalled (or kept dangling the carrot) for some reason?

I imagine at some point, Covid had an effect. But again, happy to stand corrected by those who know better.

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She never called it mate. She came up with some excuse about uncertainty around Brexit and then waiting for the general election where Boris got elected. Covid eventually became the issue but the dithering started long before then.

Now the excuse from Blackford is Ukraine, despite Holyrood and the SNP having no involvement in UK foreign policy.

The SNP will keep kicking the can down the road until such time as they think they can win a referendum - could be waiting a while. I just wonder how long the nationalist supporters will fall for it.


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Originally Posted by One Day Soon

There's no glass ceiling for the Conservatives in England and Wales, or if there is it is set at a very high level. In that context it's quite a tough gig for Starmer to catch and defeat them. But he seems to have kept Labour ahead for most of the last four months and that's presumably due to a mix of Johnson's crash and Starmer's relatively good performance.

Bit of a challenge then for Elsie that in the same context her nationalists cannot emulate Starmer's Labour with a poll bounce majority for independence. The Conservatives here absolutely do have a glass ceiling and they also offer virtually everything you could want to drive Scottish voters towards the idea of independence ranging from a crap Tory leader to a malign/incompetent government and a rag-tag Cabinet of fellow traveller idiots and bad faith actors.

My suspicion is that the Salmond and Sturgeon record in government of the last 14 years is slowly catching up with them and this is leading to a stalling in confidence about their statements on both another referendum and independence itself. The only thing protecting their poll numbers at the moment is the Conservative glass ceiling and Scottish Labour being stuck in third place and struggling to get visible and to carve out electoral ground of their own.

So perhaps the Scottish electorate does increasingly realise that the 'SNP are lying *******s as well!' but currently those electors feel they have nowhere else credible to go...

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SNP got 47/41% last year. Or 45% in 2019 GE. Higher than Tories in UK btw.

I would suggest there is a Tory UK ceiling at about 45% - Johnson got 43 even with his new anti-immigration coalition and Thatcher only managed a high of 44. Thanks to Westminster's super duper system, that's all you need though. How unifying.

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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

You can also support indy without being a proud Scot. I don't think it's anything in particular to be proud of, tbh. It would just be another small European country if it functioned normally.

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Indeed. I wasn't actually meaning to imply I'm an especially proud Scot either. There's plenty not to be proud of (with the vast anachronism known as the Old Firm near the top of the list). However, my point was that for those who appear to deem true 'Scottishness' to be dependent on supporting independence there are as many who just don't see why we're so different from folk living in all parts of the UK. The old adage that we have more that unites us than divides us holds strong for me and I personally think that warts and all the UK as a whole is a pretty great place.

What I also feel is overlooked by the nationalists is that for many their preference to remain British is irrespective of politics. Governments come and go.

Oh and the fact that the SNP personify the worst traits of the stereotypical Scot (dour, humourless and with an incessant chip on their shoulder) does nothing to endear them to those content to remain British and Scottish.

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Originally Posted by Mcbizz1998

She never called it mate. She came up with some excuse about uncertainty around Brexit and then waiting for the general election where Boris got elected. Covid eventually became the issue but the dithering started long before then.

Now the excuse from Blackford is Ukraine, despite Holyrood and the SNP having no involvement in UK foreign policy.

The SNP will keep kicking the can down the road until such time as they think they can win a referendum - could be waiting a while. I just wonder how long the nationalist supporters will fall for it.

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I remember some of the period you refer to and it was filled with senior English politicians claiming it would be illegal and/or immoral to hold another referendum. Javid when running for Tory leader memorably said he "wouldn't allow it". Wasn't Nandy at that time implying that Sturgeon, if she went ahead, should be dealt with like Catalonian rebels (ie prosecuted and jailed)? Not sure whether 'dithering' accurately describes the nature of the discourse at the time.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

Indeed. I wasn't actually meaning to imply I'm an especially proud Scot either. There's plenty not to be proud of (with the vast anachronism known as the Old Firm near the top of the list). However, my point was that for those who appear to deem true 'Scottishness' to be dependent on supporting independence there are as many who just don't see why we're so different from folk living in all parts of the UK. The old adage that we have more that unites us than divides us holds strong for me and I personally think that warts and all the UK as a whole is a pretty great place.

What I also feel is overlooked by the nationalists is that for many their preference to remain British is irrespective of politics. Governments come and go.

Oh and the fact that the SNP personify the worst traits of the stereotypical Scot (dour, humourless and with an incessant chip on their shoulder) does nothing to endear them to those content to remain British and Scottish.

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It’s a heavy price we pay for that Britishness when you look at the prosperity of our neighbours. For some, that’s a price worth paying. More and more people are taking a different view.


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Originally Posted by Mcbizz1998

She never called it mate. She came up with some excuse about uncertainty around Brexit and then waiting for the general election where Boris got elected. Covid eventually became the issue but the dithering started long before then.

Now the excuse from Blackford is Ukraine, despite Holyrood and the SNP having no involvement in UK foreign policy.

The SNP will keep kicking the can down the road until such time as they think they can win a referendum - could be waiting a while. I just wonder how long the nationalist supporters will fall for it.


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I can only speak personally, but I for one, as a long-time independence supporter (far more pro-independence than pro SNP/Nicola Sturgeon etc) would undoubtedly prefer to see some sort of stability/hope/resolution regarding Ukraine before any campaigning or talk of referendums are ramped-up again. Some things simply are more important right now regardless of who is involved politically.

Do you think you and others would be understanding and welcoming if Ian Blackford stood-up and WAS calling for a referendum right now amongst all the debate and crisis-talk over Ukraine?

When you say 'fall for it'.. do you not think Indy supporters would prefer to have the referendum at a time they think they can win too? Don't get me wrong, I think we're already in a position that we THINK we can win.. but if your theory is that we can't win just now, why would we object to waiting a little longer?

I could easily be missing something but I find it quite unique that your main argument against the SNP is they are not calling a referendum quick enough, when all I've heard over the past few years from Douglas Ross, Boris Johnson and the other Tory/Unionist advocates are that it's not the time and Scottish people don't want another divisive referendum etc. Why are you so concerned about the timing of a referendum, if you don't mind me asking?

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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

SNP got 47/41% last year. Or 45% in 2019 GE. Higher than Tories in UK btw.

I would suggest there is a Tory UK ceiling at about 45% - Johnson got 43 even with his new anti-immigration coalition and Thatcher only managed a high of 44. Thanks to Westminster's super duper system, that's all you need though. How unifying.

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I don't think any of that contradicts or addresses what I posted. If they can't pull ahead amid all this as evidenced by the polls on independence and after 14 years of uninterrupted power on the Salmond/Sturgeon ticket then supporters will be starting to ask some hard questions, as indeed seems to be the case judging by social media.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

Indeed. I wasn't actually meaning to imply I'm an especially proud Scot either. There's plenty not to be proud of (with the vast anachronism known as the Old Firm near the top of the list). However, my point was that for those who appear to deem true 'Scottishness' to be dependent on supporting independence there are as many who just don't see why we're so different from folk living in all parts of the UK. The old adage that we have more that unites us than divides us holds strong for me and I personally think that warts and all the UK as a whole is a pretty great place.

What I also feel is overlooked by the nationalists is that for many their preference to remain British is irrespective of politics. Governments come and go.

Oh and the fact that the SNP personify the worst traits of the stereotypical Scot (dour, humourless and with an incessant chip on their shoulder) does nothing to endear them to those content to remain British and Scottish.

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I can't help thinking you must have stronger arguments than the above for being so anti-independence surely, HH?

"those who appear to deem true 'Scottishness' to be dependent on supporting independence" Who are these people? I've still never encountered them.

"many who just don't see why we're so different from folk living in all parts of the UK" I guess it depends on what you mean by different. We don't, as a country vote tory, and we didn't vote for Brexit for example?

"What I also feel is overlooked by the nationalists is that for many their preference to remain British is irrespective of politics" Okay, but a decision on independence is very much a political one. And if our argument was that we just want to be 'Scottish' and not 'British' regardless of politics, we'd be scorned at with quotes of 'Braveheart' and 'anti English'

"Governments come and go." They do, but they are most often Tory, and never the one Scotland votes for.

"the SNP personify the worst traits of the stereotypical Scot (dour, humourless and with an incessant chip on their shoulder)" I won't entertain this with a retort about the traits of people like Boris and Jacob RM:greengrin

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Originally Posted by He's here!

Indeed. I wasn't actually meaning to imply I'm an especially proud Scot either. There's plenty not to be proud of (with the vast anachronism known as the Old Firm near the top of the list). However, my point was that for those who appear to deem true 'Scottishness' to be dependent on supporting independence there are as many who just don't see why we're so different from folk living in all parts of the UK. The old adage that we have more that unites us than divides us holds strong for me and I personally think that warts and all the UK as a whole is a pretty great place.

What I also feel is overlooked by the nationalists is that for many their preference to remain British is irrespective of politics. Governments come and go.

Oh and the fact that the SNP personify the worst traits of the stereotypical Scot (dour, humourless and with an incessant chip on their shoulder) does nothing to endear them to those content to remain British and Scottish.

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I don't think I actually know anybody like that (although I accept from twitter zoomerati evidence that they exist).

For me, indy is about the chance to live in a smaller, reformed state, which I believe will improve the lives of those around me. And recently, add to get back into Europe to that. Most people in Britain don't want these things. A significant number of Scots like yourself don't either. But there is some hope that a majority might appear here in my lifetime to get it done. Hope so.

As to the "not so different" thing. Yes, that's true to an extent but it's also true about Ireland and I don't feel an iota different about my Irish friends and family than I do about my English friends and family.

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Originally Posted by One Day Soon

I don't think any of that contradicts or addresses what I posted. If they can't pull ahead amid all this as evidenced by the polls on independence and after 14 years of uninterrupted power on the Salmond/Sturgeon ticket then supporters will be starting to ask some hard questions, as indeed seems to be the case judging by social media.

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When the Tories came to power independence was polling at about 27%. It’s now at 50%. And you interpret that as the SNP not making progress against a Tory govt in Westminster?[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]


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Originally Posted by One Day Soon

I don't think any of that contradicts or addresses what I posted. If they can't pull ahead amid all this as evidenced by the polls on independence and after 14 years of uninterrupted power on the Salmond/Sturgeon ticket then supporters will be starting to ask some hard questions, as indeed seems to be the case judging by social media.

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1. A rise in Lab support is a short term drag on Indy support.
2. Even with a determined push for a ref, it won't be agreed with UK in the short term. Managing that is going to be tricky. I wouldn't personally put money on a ref happening until after the next UK GE.
3. I don't think you should judge real life by social media. Yes there is an excitable nat wing on twitter but most of it left for Alba.
4. Other than that we've gone from 45/55 to 50/50 over NS' tenure. From 30ish to 50 over the 14 years.
5. We'll get there in the end.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

When the Tories came to power independence was polling at about 27%. It’s now at 50%. And you interpret that as the SNP not making progress against a Tory govt in Westminster?[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]


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Did you just not read my posts or did you choose to deliberately try to gaslight by completely misrepresenting my points?

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Originally Posted by One Day Soon

I don't think any of that contradicts or addresses what I posted. If they can't pull ahead amid all this as evidenced by the polls on independence and after 14 years of uninterrupted power on the Salmond/Sturgeon ticket then supporters will be starting to ask some hard questions, as indeed seems to be the case judging by social media.

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I'm not saying your overall point is incorrect, but I gave up judging anything by social media a while back. In fact I pretty much gave up on social media altogether :greengrin (he says while typing on an online forum)

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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

1. A rise in Lab support is a short term drag on Indy support.
2. Even with a determined push for a ref, it won't be agreed with UK in the short term. Managing that is going to be tricky. I wouldn't personally put money on a ref happening until after the next UK GE.
3. I don't think you should judge real life by social media. Yes there is an excitable nat wing on twitter but most of it left for Alba.
4. Other than that we've gone from 45/55 to 50/50 over NS' tenure. From 30ish to 50 over the 14 years.
5. We'll get there in the end.

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Again, my core point remains. Circumstances as propitious as they can be for raising support for independence and yet No remains stubbornly ahead. All the while the same negatives result in a Labour lead in the UK over a four month period. Why isn't Sturgeon getting Yes over the line in this context?

It's not the rise in Labour support being a short term drag on support for independence because No has been ahead in 21 of the last 30 polls on the subject going back to April '21 and its been tied in another 6. Yes has led in just 3. Yes was becalmed long before Johnson and Partygate kicked off in November '21.