The EU Referendum (How did you vote?)

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

I talked about health, education and public infrastructure.

They are within the remit of the Scottish Government.

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Owning a Lamborghini is within my remit.

If only I had the money.

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Originally Posted by makaveli1875

He's a master of deflection

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I'm not the one shifting the subject to have a cheap swipe, you are.

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Originally Posted by marinello59

Gove, a man who took elocution lessons to rid himself of his Aberdeen accent. PM questions is pantomime , it really doesn’t matter. He’s just another odious Tory.

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Getting rid of the accent, sadly, has probably given him more of a chance of becoming PM. A lot of folk probably don’t realise he’s Scottish. I don’t think we will see a Scottish PM any time soon with the exception of potentially Gove. The English wouldn’t put up for it. It also helps that he represents an English constituency, although I don’t think Liam Fox would stand a chance if he were in a similar situation to Gove (aside from the fact he’s a twat) because he has kept his Scottish accent.

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Originally Posted by danhibees1875

Yes. There is a minimum representation per country of 6, so they shouldn't have any less. Representation then increases proportionally and the UK gets ~70, Scotland gets it's equal share of that.






Okay, so the grievance is with interpretations of the term equal. I don't think any unionists argument of us being in an equal union stretches to "Scotlands" voice being equal to "Englands" but rather that the voice of a Scottish person is equal to the voice of an English person.

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Scotland gets 6 MEP’s while independent Ireland with a smaller population gets 11. That doesn’t seem like we are getting our fair share of representation. It’s no wonder Ireland now has a bigger economy than Scotland’s. They can take decisions that are best to suit them where we have to accept decision that may be right for England but don’t particularly suit our economy.


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Originally Posted by danhibees1875

Yes. There is a minimum representation per country of 6, so they shouldn't have any less. Representation then increases proportionally and the UK gets ~70, Scotland gets it's equal share of that.






Okay, so the grievance is with interpretations of the term equal. I don't think any unionists argument of us being in an equal union stretches to "Scotlands" voice being equal to "Englands" but rather that the voice of a Scottish person is equal to the voice of an English person.

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There is no interpretation of the term equal. It’s a completely unambiguous term. In Scotland we’re part of a union of 4 countries where one of the four countries has absolute control in voting and elected officials and the rest of us either think that’s great or disagree and think we could do better on our own.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Scotland gets 6 MEP’s while independent Ireland with a smaller population gets 11. That doesn’t seem like we are getting our fair share of representation. It’s no wonder Ireland now has a bigger economy than Scotland’s. They can take decisions that are best to suit them where we have to accept decision that may be right for England but don’t particularly suit our economy.


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How many MEPs does Connacht get? Or East Flanders? Or Andalusia?

They are part of a sovereign state which gets far more votes than they do as a distinct but nevertheless a part, of that sovereign state.

Comparing Scotland to Ireland is facile.

And the use of ‘we’ and ‘they’ doesn’t stand up to scrutiny in the slightest, not least because it doesn’t reflect the fact that more Scots voted for ‘we’ to be linked in with England than voted against, by a clear majority, so maybe just stop it with the ‘we’?.

And finally, the notion that Scotland suffers because decisions are taken that are ‘right for England’ doesn’t hold any water at all. There is no such thing as an approach that is right for ‘England’. What is important and relevant in the South-West bears little comparison to what is important and relevant in Lancashire or East Anglia, let alone London.

Reads like resentment politics, “us and them”, nationalist trope but one that doesn’t carry much weight.

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Originally Posted by lord bunberry

There is no interpretation of the term equal. It’s a completely unambiguous term. In Scotland we’re part of a union of 4 countries where one of the four countries has absolute control in voting and elected officials and the rest of us either think that’s great or disagree and think we could do better on our own.

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And when put to the vote a clear majority said they weren’t convinced by the argument for separation.

This notion that one country has absolute control - I have to dispute. What does it actually mean? Is there an ‘English’ approach to decision making? Given the clear splits in England politically I don’t think you can back that up. Also, as I seem to have said countless times, practically every policy that impacts on our day-to-day life is within the powers of the Scottish Government and almost all have been for many years now. And for the entirety of Labour in power 1997-2010, Scottish MPs were massively over-represented and powerful in the UK government.

As long as nationalists bang on about being hard done to, all they will do is further embitter their committed and further alienate the potential swingers. And nobody really wins from that scenario.

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

And when put to the vote a clear majority said they weren’t convinced by the argument for separation.

This notion that that one country has absolute control - I have to dispute. What does it actually mean? Is there an ‘English’ approach to decision making? Given the clear splits in England politically I don’t think you can back that up. Also, as I seem to have said countless times, practically every policy that impacts on our day-to-day life is within the powers of the Scottish Government and almost all have been for many years now.

As long as nationalists bang on about being hard done to, all they will do is further embitter their committed and further alienate the potential swingers. And nobody really wins from that scenario.

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You appear to live in this fantasy bubble where UK politics isn't influenced by any sort of nationalistic agenda. The game of politics is to win enough people over to keep you in power. Not to please everybody, which is impossible to do.

The UK Government doesn't need to please anybody in Scotland. They could piss us all off as long as it wins them enough support in England to keep them in power.

You'll never admit it to yourself. But "socking it to the jocks" is a vote winner in England. If any politican thinks they can gain a political advantage by doing so, then they will not hesitate for a second.

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Originally Posted by danhibees1875

Proportionally equal is being equal though, that's how things work. Unless you think Scotland should have a proportionally 10x stronger say in things in order to be considered equal. Different countries in the EU get a different number of MEPs :confused:

I think "Scots decide one thing and UK just ignore it" isn't necessarily how it works either. It could just as easily work the other way, it's just 10x less likely. It's not an active decision to ignore Scottish votes, there's just not as many of them.

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

And when put to the vote a clear majority said they weren’t convinced by the argument for separation.

This notion that one country has absolute control - I have to dispute. What does it actually mean? Is there an ‘English’ approach to decision making? Given the clear splits in England politically I don’t think you can back that up. Also, as I seem to have said countless times, practically every policy that impacts on our day-to-day life is within the powers of the Scottish Government and almost all have been for many years now. And for the entirety of Labour in power 1997-2010, Scottish MPs were massively over-represented and powerful in the UK government.

As long as nationalists bang on about being hard done to, all they will do is further embitter their committed and further alienate the potential swingers. And nobody really wins from that scenario.

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There doesn’t have to be an English approach as there’s without any doubt an English majority. Your point about Scottish MPs being massively over-represented in the labour government may well be true, but they served the UK, not Scotland. I realise that for some that is one and the same, but not for me.

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

And when put to the vote a clear majority said they weren’t convinced by the argument for separation.

This notion that one country has absolute control - I have to dispute. What does it actually mean? Is there an ‘English’ approach to decision making? Given the clear splits in England politically I don’t think you can back that up. Also, as I seem to have said countless times, practically every policy that impacts on our day-to-day life is within the powers of the Scottish Government and almost all have been for many years now. And for the entirety of Labour in power 1997-2010, Scottish MPs were massively over-represented and powerful in the UK government.

As long as nationalists bang on about being hard done to, all they will do is further embitter their committed and further alienate the potential swingers. And nobody really wins from that scenario.

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The Scottish govt would like the power to set up drug treatment facilities in order to save the lives of addicts. Unfortunately they have been denied that right. This is a day to day thing affecting the life’s of people living here. There are other priorities though at stake in UK wide politics though so it can’t happen.



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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

And when put to the vote a clear majority said they weren’t convinced by the argument for separation.

This notion that one country has absolute control - I have to dispute. What does it actually mean? Is there an ‘English’ approach to decision making? Given the clear splits in England politically I don’t think you can back that up. Also, as I seem to have said countless times, practically every policy that impacts on our day-to-day life is within the powers of the Scottish Government and almost all have been for many years now. And for the entirety of Labour in power 1997-2010, Scottish MPs were massively over-represented and powerful in the UK government.

As long as nationalists bang on about being hard done to, all they will do is further embitter their committed and further alienate the potential swingers. And nobody really wins from that scenario.

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The snp separatists remind me of the tory maniacs that wags the torys tail. They're so encamped in their divisive small time snp nationalism that they would rather see the weakest in Scottish society suffer when the cuts in welfare and services batter the 'scottish economy and whatever currency' the eventually imagine upon, they literally couldn't care less.

The worst part is that most of those who're taken in by the snp pirate pied pipers are the worst off in society who'd expect to 'share' in the snp separatist brigadoon tax and hurt those who provide funds for both public and private services. The poorest and least able would be the hardest hit in any separatist scotland.

Its literally criminal how the snp separatists are taking in those who'd be worst hit by vastly decreased services and benefits which is a fact as they the snp couldn't even tell us what currency they'd use or what is their financial goal other than to give it away to the EU Germany and France mostly.

You couldn't make it up.

Mon Labour!!!

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

How many MEPs does Connacht get? Or East Flanders? Or Andalusia?

They are part of a sovereign state which gets far more votes than they do as a distinct but nevertheless a part, of that sovereign state.

Comparing Scotland to Ireland is facile.

And the use of ‘we’ and ‘they’ doesn’t stand up to scrutiny in the slightest, not least because it doesn’t reflect the fact that more Scots voted for ‘we’ to be linked in with England than voted against, by a clear majority, so maybe just stop it with the ‘we’?.

And finally, the notion that Scotland suffers because decisions are taken that are ‘right for England’ doesn’t hold any water at all. There is no such thing as an approach that is right for ‘England’. What is important and relevant in the South-West bears little comparison to what is important and relevant in Lancashire or East Anglia, let alone London.

Reads like resentment politics, “us and them”, nationalist trope but one that doesn’t carry much weight.

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Your constant picking up on people using the term ‘we’ or ‘us’ is the single most boring thing on here. It does not move forward any of the discussions at all. Every time I see you do it I think why? Am I missing something? Is there a higher understanding I’m missing (probably)? Each and every time though, I understand exactly what the person meant whether I agree with them or not.
And I also know that about 20 posts later I’ll be still reading about who has the right to say ‘we’.
Don’t take that personally. [emoji6]


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Your constant picking up on people using the term ‘we’ or ‘us’ is the single most boring thing on here. It does not move forward any of the discussions at all. Every time I see you do it I think why? Am I missing something? Is there a higher understanding I’m missing (probably)? Each and every time though, I understand exactly what the person meant whether I agree with them or not.
And I also know that about 20 posts later I’ll be still reading about who has the right to say ‘we’.
Don’t take that personally. [emoji6]


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Oops, I take that back. While I was typing Tornado70 posted and I remembered that your ‘we’ posts are only the 2nd most boring thing on here. [emoji6]


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Originally Posted by Tornadoes70

You couldn't make it up.

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Nope. But you somehow find a way. Bravo. :applause:

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Your constant picking up on people using the term ‘we’ or ‘us’ is the single most boring thing on here. It does not move forward any of the discussions at all. Every time I see you do it I think why? Am I missing something? Is there a higher understanding I’m missing (probably)? Each and every time though, I understand exactly what the person meant whether I agree with them or not.
And I also know that about 20 posts later I’ll be still reading about who has the right to say ‘we’.
Don’t take that personally. [emoji6]


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Maybe it's because he is right and people keep making the same mistake over and over.

It's like Ian Blackford every day at Westminster 'the people of Scotlands voice will be heard' he does not speak for me or the majority.

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Originally Posted by James310

No, you would be more like this.

https://youtu.be/Wny6XhsV2hE

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James I don't know why you bother. Most of the snp separatists at least the scottish ones anyhow are so far gone that they're actually believing 'whaes like us' and that of course Germany and France would somehow treat us of similar wealth and stature.

Laughable, a real scottish aye fae me mate.

At least we're treated bigger than we are in the UK mate but don't mention that to the William Wallace's who never get far out of their fife villages for goodness sake.

:greengrin

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Your constant picking up on people using the term ‘we’ or ‘us’ is the single most boring thing on here. It does not move forward any of the discussions at all. Every time I see you do it I think why? Am I missing something? Is there a higher understanding I’m missing (probably)? Each and every time though, I understand exactly what the person meant whether I agree with them or not.
And I also know that about 20 posts later I’ll be still reading about who has the right to say ‘we’.
Don’t take that personally. [emoji6]


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Nope, it's not just you. It's beyond tedious and adds absolutely nothing to the discussion. It's the sort of thing people resort to, when they don't have a logical, well reasoned argument to make regarding the subject at hand.

For somebody who is apparently all for unity and togetherness. The concept of "we" certainly seems to bother them by an unhealthy degree. Perhaps "we" is only an acceptable term for those who fall into line with the status quo?

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Your constant picking up on people using the term ‘we’ or ‘us’ is the single most boring thing on here. It does not move forward any of the discussions at all. Every time I see you do it I think why? Am I missing something? Is there a higher understanding I’m missing (probably)? Each and every time though, I understand exactly what the person meant whether I agree with them or not.
And I also know that about 20 posts later I’ll be still reading about who has the right to say ‘we’.
Don’t take that personally. [emoji6]


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No worries :greengrin

But I will keep making the point if it’s okay because language is important.

Language creates a a discourse and discourse creates a narrative.

And all of a sudden you have a narrative where some strident and vocal posters on here keep repeating that ‘we’ had this done to us, ‘we’ dont have a say.

But when ‘we’ did have a say ‘we’ said bollocks to that by a clear majority.

It is up to nationalists to find a better way of expressing their arguments or sentiments. Claiming they speak for the majority by using the word ‘we’ is just a massive, shameful lie.

Hopefully you’re not missing anything now :greengrin

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Originally Posted by James310

Maybe it's because he is right and people keep making the same mistake over and over.

It's like Ian Blackford every day at Westminster 'the people of Scotlands voice will be heard' he does not speak for me or the majority.

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But he does speak for a larger minority in Scotland than the Conservatives do and a FAR larger minority than Labour.

Also, when he refers to "the people of Scotland". He's referring to the majority that voted to remain in the EU. That's how it works in politics. He's hardly going to pander to the minority. That's for failed parties in Scotland like Labour.

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

Nope, it's not just you. It's beyond tedious and adds absolutely nothing to the discussion. It's the sort of thing people resort to, when they don't have a logical, well reasoned argument to make regarding the subject at hand.

For somebody who is apparently all for unity and togetherness. The concept of "we" certainly seems to bother them by an unhealthy degree. Perhaps "we" is only an acceptable term for those who fall into line with the status quo?

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When you cannot inform folk of what currency they'd be using or how their benefits, pensions,, wages, travel money, markets jobs etc etc would be affected by sudden transformation by a bunch of uber nationalists you'll always be naturally attacked by those who care about the wider world.

Come out of your maws bedroom fife.

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Originally Posted by lord bunberry

There doesn’t have to be an English approach as there’s without any doubt an English majority. Your point about Scottish MPs being massively over-represented in the labour government may well be true, but they served the UK, not Scotland. I realise that for some that is one and the same, but not for me.

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That doesn’t really answer the point about England having some form of dominance.

England is a split country with steadfast Tory shires, Labour heartlands, and at least for some of the time, Lib Dem strongholds. They do fluctuate occasionally but they are dissonant from one another.

Truro is as likely to vote with North East Fife as Monklands is to vote with Darlington and Eastwood to vote with Beaconsfield.

There is rarely an English majority and the most recent examples have been the Blair administrations, which introduced SureStart, child tax credits, pension credits and the minimum wage. Not exactly flying in the face of Scottish opinion?

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Your constant picking up on people using the term ‘we’ or ‘us’ is the single most boring thing on here. It does not move forward any of the discussions at all. Every time I see you do it I think why? Am I missing something? Is there a higher understanding I’m missing (probably)? Each and every time though, I understand exactly what the person meant whether I agree with them or not.
And I also know that about 20 posts later I’ll be still reading about who has the right to say ‘we’.
Don’t take that personally. [emoji6]


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And of course, you can respond to my points about Connacht and East Flanders or there being no such thing as an English approach in your own time :greengrin

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Originally Posted by Tornadoes70

When you cannot inform folk of what currency they'd be using or how their benefits, pensions,, wages, travel money, markets jobs etc etc would be affected by sudden transformation by a bunch of uber nationalists you'll always be naturally attacked by those who care about the wider world.

come out of your bedroom fife.

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What is meant by "what currency"? The name they're going to call it? How much it will be worth? What it will look like?

As for "benefits, pensions, wages, travel money, market jobs etc etc". Ask the UK Government what these things are going to look like several years down the line in the UK and you'll get a strikingly similar response from them.

They can't guarentee the strength of the GBP several years down the line anymore than the Scottish Government can for a new established currency.

Unionists mock the SNP for failing to give guarantees that not even countries who already have their own established currencies can give.

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Originally Posted by Tornadoes70

James I don't know why you bother. Most of the snp separatists at least the scottish ones anyhow are so far gone that they're actually believing 'whaes like us' and that of course Germany and France would somehow treat us of similar wealth and stature.

Laughable, a real scottish aye fae me mate.

At least we're treated bigger than we are in the UK mate but don't mention that to the William Wallace's who never get far out of their fife villages for goodness sake.

:greengrin

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What way are we “treated bigger than we are in the uk”?

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

The Scottish govt would like the power to set up drug treatment facilities in order to save the lives of addicts. Unfortunately they have been denied that right. This is a day to day thing affecting the life’s of people living here. There are other priorities though at stake in UK wide politics though so it can’t happen.



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Where are you getting that from?

Drug and alcohol treatment services are devolved to local drug and alcohol partnerships which are linked into community planning partnerships, which are on a statutory footing and well-established across Scotland.

Essentially, every local authority has one, with SG funding, unless they choose to link up with a neighbouring local authority (which often makes sense for practical reasons).

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Originally Posted by The Modfather

What way are we “treated bigger than we are in the uk”?

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Remember when lord pishy breeks was bemoaning the fact that Scotland was out performing the rest of the UK by claiming that the SNP were "doing it on purpose"?

Perhaps that's what he means.

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

What is meant by "what currency"? The name they're going to call it? How much it will be worth? What it will look like?

As for "benefits, pensions, wages, travel money, market jobs etc etc". Ask the UK Government what these things are going to look like several years down the line in the UK and you'll get a strikingly similar response from them.

They can't guarentee the strength of the GBP several years down the line anymore than the Scottish Government can for a new established currency.

Unionists mock the SNP for failing to give guarantees that not even countries who already have their own established currencies can give.

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Seriously?

You're either completely pished or the fool leading the poor and weak into complete poverty and some into probably death through destitute and non care/

Do you ever think before 'fife' posting?

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Originally Posted by The Modfather

What way are we “treated bigger than we are in the uk”?

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I don't even bother posting on your 'comments' any more as your'e just a troll who makes no sense whatsoever other than to similar snp trolls.

I don't even think you're a true hibs fan one from edinburgh and scotland but a trolll from who knows where.

Pash off.

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Originally Posted by Tornadoes70

The snp separatists remind me of the tory maniacs that wags the torys tail. They're so encamped in their divisive small time snp nationalism that they would rather see the weakest in Scottish society suffer when the cuts in welfare and services batter the 'scottish economy and whatever currency' the eventually imagine upon, they literally couldn't care less.

The worst part is that most of those who're taken in by the snp pirate pied pipers are the worst off in society who'd expect to 'share' in the snp separatist brigadoon tax and hurt those who provide funds for both public and private services. The poorest and least able would be the hardest hit in any separatist scotland.

Its literally criminal how the snp separatists are taking in those who'd be worst hit by vastly decreased services and benefits which is a fact as they the snp couldn't even tell us what currency they'd use or what is their financial goal other than to give it away to the EU Germany and France mostly.

You couldn't make it up.

Mon Labour!!!

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You're right, I probably couldn't.

You seem to manage quite well though.

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

Where are you getting that from?

Drug and alcohol treatment services are devolved to local drug and alcohol partnerships which are linked into community planning partnerships, which are on a statutory footing and well-established across Scotland.

Essentially, every local authority has one, with SG funding, unless they choose to link up with a neighbouring local authority (which often makes sense for practical reasons).

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https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...w-to-open-one/



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Originally Posted by Tornadoes70

I don't even bother posting on your 'comments' any more as your'e just a troll who makes no sense whatsoever other than to similar snp trolls.

I don't even think you're a true hibs fan one from edinburgh and scotland but a trolll from who knows where.

Pash off.

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I’ll take that as a polite no to expanding on Scotland being “treated bigger than we are in the uk”