Nicola Sturgeon knew of gender bill concerns, ex-minister says - BBC NewsQuote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
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Nicola Sturgeon knew of gender bill concerns, ex-minister says - BBC NewsQuote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
My wife is a former teacher and she was at a get together with all her uni pals. 4 or 5 of them had been at a CPD course on equality and one of the things they all picked up on was that they should no longer use the term ‘boys or girls’ when addressing the class.
This is primary school teachers btw.
Ridiculous
https://news.stv.tv/entertainment/da...ally-important
Daniel Radcliffe has his say.
No sure why anyone would care what the opinion of his or jk's was to be honest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
Powerful stuff. She speaks well.Quote:
Originally Posted by 147lothian
In the 2020 essay he wrote: “Transgender women are women. Any statement to the contrary erases the identity and dignity of transgender people and goes against all advice given by professional health care associations who have far more expertise on this subject matter than either Jo or I.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
“According to The Trevor Project, 78% of transgender and nonbinary youth reported being the subject of discrimination due to their gender identity. It’s clear that we need to do more to support transgender and nonbinary people, not invalidate their identities, and not cause further harm.”
In a recent interview with IndieWire, Radcliffe, 33, explained why he felt compelled to speak up.
He said: “The reason I was felt very, very much as though I needed to say something when I did was because, particularly since finishing ‘Potter,’ I’ve met so many queer and trans kids and young people who had a huge amount of identification with Potter on that. And so seeing them hurt on that day I was like, I wanted them to know that not everybody in the franchise felt that way. And that was really important.”
Radcliffe fails to grasp the conflict inherent what he says. Rowling is speaking as a women, someone with "lived experience". He is not and never can do so. WE all know there is discrimination and stigma associated with trans and non binary and no right thinking person would condone that? However, he doesn't even bother pretending to directly address what Rowling and many others are saying when they condemn blanket approaches to self identification, as proposed under GRA.
Why is he speaking on behalf of "the franchise", surely not to protect the corporate Potter cash cow that made him a star and no doubt very rich?
Radcliffe's utterances smack of cynicism and tokenism.
He's already had plenty to say on this and all of it completely off the mark when it comes to Rowling being anti-trans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
The kids in the Potter films owe Rowling their acting careers and were likely set up for life by the films. I don't have an issue with their wealth because the movies are excellent and they more than earned that money, but when it comes to Rowling they could at least show her some respect by getting their facts right before putting the boot in.
Good post. Reminds me of the misguided guff Tom Daley came out with about this issue a few months back.Quote:
Originally Posted by superfurryhibby
Maybe I'm off but I'm surprised it's as low as 78% of trans youth have experienced discrimination. I thought it'd be higher, hopefully things are changing.
I'd bet its in the 90s % of say gingers that have experienced discrimination, definitely most people of colour
...and on the subject of Rowling:
'This is what a principled politician looks like'. J K Rowling backs SNP rebel Regan with fresh swipe at Sturgeon
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...ns-law-tug-of/
JK Rowling has long stood up for woman's rights. Objecting to woman being called people who menstruate is not transphobic. This shows the deep misogyny of trans activists that think they can change language to fit their agenda and anyone who doesn't go along with it can be monstered as a transphobe, TERF or fascist.
The reason trans activists want to call women, people who menstruate is because they think a woman is an identity category they don't believe in the reality of biological sex. They think any man who puts on a dress is a literal woman. This is why they hate women who stand up for their sex-based rights.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev3iZR3cCkM]
https://archive.ph/bhVB7
First court case someone is charged as a male and female
What has all that got to do with the GRA?Quote:
Originally Posted by 147lothian
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The video link didn't work for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
I assume that's what you're referring to?
It's worth keeping in mind that this thread is about Trans Rights and there's more to the subject than the GRA bill.
Rowling claimed she felt the need to speak about the issue of transgender rights because of her own experiences of domestic abuse.
Domestic abuse has nothing to do with trans rights. It's bad but it is totally different to the abuse of transgender people.
You are missing the bigger picture. It's about having woman only safe places.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
Lots of men on this thread telling woman how they should feel or not feel.
https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/i...f-b989709.html
Aye , ok................the lengths some people go to :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
From JK herself
https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j...gender-issues/
"Well, I’ve got five reasons for being worried about the new trans activism, and deciding I need to speak up.
Firstly, I have a charitable trust that focuses on alleviating social deprivation in Scotland, with a particular emphasis on women and children. Among other things, my trust supports projects for female prisoners and for survivors of domestic and sexual abuse. I also fund medical research into MS, a disease that behaves very differently in men and women. It’s been clear to me for a while that the new trans activism is having (or is likely to have, if all its demands are met) a significant impact on many of the causes I support, because it’s pushing to erode the legal definition of sex and replace it with gender.
The second reason is that I’m an ex-teacher and the founder of a children’s charity, which gives me an interest in both education and safeguarding. Like many others, I have deep concerns about the effect the trans rights movement is having on both.
The third is that, as a much-banned author, I’m interested in freedom of speech and have publicly defended it, even unto Donald Trump.
The fourth is where things start to get truly personal. I’m concerned about the huge explosion in young women wishing to transition and also about the increasing numbers who seem to be detransitioning (returning to their original sex), because they regret taking steps that have, in some cases, altered their bodies irrevocably, and taken away their fertility. Some say they decided to transition after realising they were same-sex attracted, and that transitioning was partly driven by homophobia, either in society or in their families"
She appears to omit reason five, but says this, which I find quite compelling.
"We’re living through the most misogynistic period I’ve experienced. Back in the 80s, I imagined that my future daughters, should I have any, would have it far better than I ever did, but between the backlash against feminism and a porn-saturated online culture, I believe things have got significantly worse for girls. Never have I seen women denigrated and dehumanised to the extent they are now. From the leader of the free world’s long history of sexual assault accusations and his proud boast of ‘grabbing them by the pussy’, to the incel (‘involuntarily celibate’) movement that rages against women who won’t give them sex, to the trans activists who declare that TERFs need punching and re-educating, men across the political spectrum seem to agree: women are asking for trouble. Everywhere, women are being told to shut up and sit down, or else".
It's clear that Rowling has engaged in some deep thinking about her position and makes an eloquent case, unlike many of the critics, like Radcliffe and Emily Watson, from the "franchise".
But if she is scared now of biological males in traditionally female only places then her opinion is valid to the debate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
Defenders say this isn't effected by gra, others say it does. Gra allows people to change their birth certificate and not allow people to know if it was ever changed. There will be no way to know if someone was born a male, if they say they are literally a female then they are.
I don't think sex assaults will increase in anyway but I'm not a woman so it won't affect me
Worth looking beyond a single throwaway paragraph in that STV report. There's a wider issue here. As others have already pointed out, Rowling's fervent opposition to Sturgeon's bill is rooted in its impact on women's rights. At no time has she expressed any sort of anti-trans views.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
Personally I think it's great that as high profile a figure as Rowling has no qualms about putting herself in the firing line here and expressing the concerns of many so eloquenty.
Well, I guess domestic abuse has got something to do with trans rights when women don't want to go to the Edinburgh rape crisis center because the head of the organization is a man who identifies as a woman who say's things like "even bigots get raped". Or when two women become impregnated in an all-female prison in New Jersey by a fellow prisoner.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
Quick question. Say I - a heterosexual cis man - seeks access at a women's refuge. The reason could be genuine, it might not be, who knows. I would expect to be refused shelter for the comfort and wellbeing of the women there because as a male bodied person, I represent a particular threat to them, a threat which that shelter primarily exists to protect women from.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
Say an identical person - my doppelganger even - seeks the same access and the only difference is that they claim a trans identity. No definable or measurable difference, apart from the belief that they have been born in the wrong body, or adhere to an idea of gender separate from sex. Why should the shelter perceive them as any less of a threat? Why would the women in the shelter feel any less uncomfortable?
In the UK, the prison issue is decided on a case-by-case basis.Quote:
Originally Posted by 147lothian
Presumably, the US cases were consensual relationships? If so, I'm not sure relationships of any type inside a prison can be completely avoided.
In your second example, that's already dealt with by the Equality Act. The default is that a trans woman, at any stage of her transition, has access to that space. However, if the current occupants have concerns about the individual, they can refuse her entry.Quote:
Originally Posted by 500miles
None of that will change with the current proposals.
I'm no fan of her books or aspects of her politics, but Rowling has been very brave in taking a stance. I totally commend her and her right to speak out on issues which are close to her heart.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
Nothing she has said can be construed as anti-trans and I would feel pretty confident that she, like most right-minded people, would have no issues with people's who have undergone gender reassignment to it's logical conclusion. Her concerns are based on fundamental erosion of women's rights.
Aside from the vacuous white noise from people like Radcliffe, what I find more worrying is the media clamour to close down people's right to speak out. I understand when we, as a society, want to suppress those who wish to inflame hatred, racial, sexual, or whatever. However, nothing she has said sits in those categories. I don't like the erosion of fundamental democratic rights and wonder where it might end?
Who decides the agenda here? Mainstream media is controlled by some very dubious organisations and have huge power to influence the public, I see it as a distract, divide and conquer issue. Meanwhile our corrupt government carries on screwing us plebs for everything we have. I wish people would waken up and take the blinkers off.
Why is that the default position under the Equalities act? It will surely become the case if GRA is passed in it's current form.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Workers and women who use the Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre have very clearly opposed the appointment of their most senior manager. I know for a fact that they have lost staff because of the issue and anecdotally, their key stakeholders (women who have been raped or sexually assaulted) totally oppose Mridul Wadha's appointment. One day I hope the full story behind this will come out, it's a total stich up.
I've been having a think about this from the point of view of major western religions and have come to this conclusion.
If people believe that God, Jesus and some guy called The Holy Ghost are individuals and at the same time are also the same person...
...then surely they can believe that somebody can be a Man as well as a Woman?
:dunno:
I'm not sure I understand the question. That has been the position since 2010 (?) when the Act was passed.Quote:
Originally Posted by superfurryhibby
There are many exceptions to that basic rule, as there always are.
More here on how organisations can deal with access for trans people:-
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/...s-equality-act
The GRA won't change those basic rules and exceptions. What it may do is increase the number of times that an organisation will have to review and apply its own protocols.
I don't know as much as you about the ERCC case. But, in answering the question as to why the Project Manager is still in post, the key may be in that piece above where it says "Under these provisions, your approach must be a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim...You must then show that your action is a proportionate way to achieve that aim. This requires that you balance the impact upon all service users." One would assume that the Board of ERCC have considered those provisions; if they haven't, that's where any challenge to her appointment would come from.
A lot of what she says is construed as anti-trans. If this wasn't the case, trans people and their allies wouldn't consider her to be extremely problematic.Quote:
Originally Posted by superfurryhibby
I can't see how saying nothing negative about trans people, just saying there is a difference in biology can be seen as anti trans. Some trans don't like her as their position is trans women are 100% women and to say different is anti trans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumble de Thump
I agree that the current GRA reforms aren't the game changers some people seem to think they are, but in the example above it seems like a really weird line to draw. It solely relies on an individuals personal belief which is neither definable or measurable, and I'm not comfortable with that. It's got a very "prayer in school" feel - ie. the insitutional enforcement of spiritual belief.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumble de Thump
A bit like anti Zionists being accused of being anti-Semitic by militant Zionists then.
If you identify as disabled are you 😲
https://mobile.twitter.com/andrewdoy...04732756922368
In case anyone gets het up about the conversation on the right there, it's a satirical account, written by Andrew Doyle.:greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Yeah it's one of the most popular accounts on twitter, the point is his mad jokes on woke are somehow coming true.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Long-serving Guardian journalist Hadley Freeman in parting shot at paper over trans debate:
https://pressgazette.co.uk/hadley-fr...-sunday-times/
One thing is for sure no woman can get pregnant from a fellow prisoner in a woman only prison if the inmates are woman only. Maybe this would be the best way to protect vulnerable women.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Not sure what you mean by "protect". The relationships were consensual, weren't they?Quote:
Originally Posted by 147lothian
Given the stressful nature prison and the high number of vulnerable women in prison, I think it's difficult to use 'consensual' in the way you would apply outside prison. Here's a case from the Guardian, probably the most supportive on trans issues https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_OtherQuote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
I'm not convinced you'd accept that so readily if it were a cis man who got a prisoner pregnant.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
That prisoner should clearly have never been in that prison. The purported "case-by-case" system obviously isn't working as it should.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
Horrific as that case is, I'm not convinced that all transgender women should be in male prisons. Equally, should all transgender men be in women's prisons?
It's a dilemma. Both groups have their needs, but there may be conflict between those needs. It's a tricky one, exacerbated (in my view) by the GRA.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
It is amazing how these insane jokes have come true. Andrew Doyle is completely correct to say that people who subscribe to an ideology wholesale give up the capacity to think for themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_qMWTYhVqk
The stage show is hilarious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Someone very close to me plays the character, on stage and telly.... hence my unbiased opinion:greengrin
Is this the person here?Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5N8ibiR9o0
Yeah. 😀Quote:
Originally Posted by 147lothian
Just wondering how far we want to take this.
"Able-bodied Norwegian man self identifies as disabled woman."
https://www.heraldscotland.com/opini...isabled-woman/
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith_M
Identifying as disabled…that concept was used by the SNP to create regional lists of prospective candidates for election iirc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith_M
That person has issues to put it mildly.
Alme said it had been a life-long wish to have been born a woman paralysed from the waist down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith_M
I think he needs psychiatric help.
Trans ideology is starting to unravel now that the people who detransition are starting to speak out. It is deplorable that people with mental health issues are being targeted by the zealots and big medicine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phjkZSSu_dY&t=3s
Never heard of detransitioning before.Quote:
Originally Posted by 147lothian
Not surprising based on the minute numbers.
https://www.gendergp.com/detransition-facts/
Detransition is a loaded term.
Importantly, it doesn’t mean an unsatisfactory or regrettable result. Rather, it simply refers to the small group of people who transition and then go back.
Try telling the growing number who detransition that to detransition doesn't mean unsatisfactory or regrettable result
Sturgeon set to water down gender reform bill?
Nicola Sturgeon could water down gender reforms for teens after SNP rebellion (msn.com)
The Greens won’t be pleased…. But they’ll suck it up as usual, those ministerial salaries are so seductive. :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
Have to say, my link is just a bit more balanced than what you have linked to.Quote:
Originally Posted by 147lothian
Not sure about that when the site you linked to is a commercial business "selling" services for up to £150.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
This the "balance" you are going on about?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Gp-clinic.html
"A consultant physician has been stuck off for wrongly prescribing sex-change treatments to seven transgender patients - one who was aged just nine and another a teenager who took their own life few months later."
Irrespective of his political allegiance, Neale Hanvey sets out his concerns rationally here:
https://www.fifetoday.co.uk/news/opi...hanvey-3902122
“Here in Kirkcaldy, trans identifying Katie Dolatowski was convicted of assaulting a 10-year-old child in a local supermarket toilet. As a direct consequence the media framed this sexual predator as trans”Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
There lies one of the dangers. A whole community will be stigmatised by the actions of a few deviants who will exploit circumstances for their own nefarious ends.
A key reason this legislation is flawed.Quote:
Originally Posted by superfurryhibby
Ethically and morally speaking, if someone identifies as being paralysed from the waist down, should you indulge their fantasy by paralysing them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith_M
Same person was in the news this week as they apparently moved to England, under yet another new identity but still trans identifying and was able to be admitted to a refuge in Leeds for traumatised women and their children where they stayed for nearly 3 months.Quote:
Originally Posted by superfurryhibby
"The group's lawyer Aidan O'Neill KC argued that obtaining a gender recognition certificate should not "result in a change of sex for the purposes of the Equality Act".Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
He said if it did, it would "run a coach and horses through the preservation of safe spaces for women and single-sex provision for women under the Equality Act".
The proceedings are taking place at the same time as MSPs are considering separate legislation which would make it easier for trans people to obtain a gender recognition certificate".
I think that "safe space" issue has already been spectacularly breached with the Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre situation and their CEO.
I suppose the group raising the court action won't mention this, but surely the BBC already know that this has already happened in plain sight and been reported in the media. Why can't they refer to it as the continuing erosion of protected services and safe spaces. It's already happening.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/r...ents-2b9kdvc75
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...itics-63572905
Over 150 amendments proposed to gender bill.
Some amendments will probably be made, just not the tory ones which basically seem to be that they don't want any changes to the current situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
America is some place right enough
https://mobile.twitter.com/yaf/statu...01818044403713
That seems quite heartwarming, and nice to see the positive reactions from her fellow contestants.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Aside from the moral issue of beauty contests, the "winner" was clearly determined by factors other than their striking good looks. I personally find it all a bit sinister.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibby rae
I have zero interest in such things as well, and agree there can be a moral question. But also if others want to engage who am I to argue?Quote:
Originally Posted by superfurryhibby
I have no idea what the determining factors were to win that particular contest.
She is bigger than the beatles, so it can't be traditional beauty contest criteria
This is why Gender self ID is flawed, from a woman's safety and child protection point of view.Quote:
Originally Posted by superfurryhibby
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDMFs7ZYw3Y
The woman in Kirkcaldy is a sexual predator, regardless of gender. That kind of person will always be a threat, regardless of how they identify.Quote:
Originally Posted by 147lothian
Flipping things for a bit....
Someone asked earlier about trans men in the public arena.
https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2022/11/09/us-elections-james-roesener-first-trans-man-elected/
Quote:
Originally Posted by LewysGot2
:greengrin
Aye, but if it was a cis man, he wouldn't be freely roaming the halls of a women's refuge weeks later.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
I've decided to self identify as a Barcelona Fan...
This stuff is Comedy Gold:greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5jtMB6HkK8
Gender recognition bill to be amended:
MSPs vote for changes to gender recognition bill - BBC News
A small step in the right direction.
And in a bizarre development a woman wearing 'suffragette colours' was ejected from the parliament:
Scottish parliament apologises after suffragette scarf row - BBC News
Actually looks more like a Hibs scarf.
The suffragette colours have been adopted by the anti trans activists according to a report I read.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
Does anti trans mean against trans or just have a different opinion on whether trans women are literally women. joanna cherry was tweeting a complaint about it yesterday. I'd doubt snp would allow someone who was anti trans to be in the partyQuote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
Are you saying that somehow justified throwing this woman out of our centre of democracy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
No, but that's what I saw being reported as to the reason. No 'overtly' political symbols are allowed, apparently.Quote:
Originally Posted by marinello59
It means anti-transgender.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Well if its actually anti transgender as a group, why haven't snp done anything against joanna cherry condemning it and why have scot gov said she shouldn't have been thrown out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumble de Thump
Have you ever thought that this could be because the report you read is from an echo chamber, that confirms the idea that a man can click his fingers and become a woman and that anyone who doesn't go along with this and holds the view that the reality of biological sex matters, also that woman's sex-based rights have to be protected, a view held by the left until 5 minutes ago is now regarded as transphobic by people who want to erase womanhood.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
....like the BBC?Quote:
Originally Posted by 147lothian
"More recently, they have also become associated with those opposed to changes to gender recognition laws."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63639814
All that piece, and others in other outlets, is saying is that is how the colours are perceived by some. Some. No echo chamber. No opinion given, just stating a fact.
That says people who appose changes, that is very different to anti trans. That's an opinion not a fact for manyQuote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
An opinion or a perception? :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
I'm unaware of any 'anti-trans' activist groups here, only people standing up for women's rights. That doesn't make you anti-trans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
It's worth remembering that the reason feminists are against gender self ID is not because they are transphobic, it's because of case's like the paedophile man who identified as a woman and was housed at a female only hostel in Fife, same person also stayed at domestic violence refuge for woman and children in Leeds for 71 days sexually assaulted a 10-year-old girl in a Morrisons toilet in Kirkcaldy and filmed a 12-year-old girl in a toilet cubicle in a ASDA in Dunfermline.
The GRA and gender self ID create a loophole that can be exploited by predators like this, in this context it is a woman's safety and child protection issue.
This same person has now assaulted a male inmate in the male estate in prison. They have been moved to the female estate instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by 147lothian
Someone who is over 6 ft tall, biologically not female, sexually assaulted a wee girl in supermarket toilets, lied to get to stay in a refuge for vulnerable women and children and now moved into the female estate in prison...
Risk assessment anyone?
https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news...rison-assault/
Spot on. There are clearly plenty of men on here (not sure if are there any contributions from female posters) who fully appreciate the dangers inherent in this legislation but I think it's fair to say only a woman can really identify with the fear which can come from unwanted male attention eg being followed by some creep and being able to find refuge in a female changing room.Quote:
Originally Posted by 147lothian
Green white and purple scarves mean you're a hibs fan no?
Not being bothered by something because it doesn't directly impact on your life is pretty much one definition of privilege.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
The thing is some folk might not have a daughter to worry about and care about her rights. We all have had a mother.
Very true.Quote:
Originally Posted by LewysGot2
Thought it was a belter of a Hibs scarf but a bit steep at 25 quidQuote:
Originally Posted by Onceinawhile
useful information
I wasn't sure if this belongs on here or the World Cup thread...
‘I feel gay, disabled … like a woman too!’
(Gianni Infantino, Head of FIFA)
https://www.theguardian.com/football...orld-cup-qatar
OK, Gianni, you've definitely gone one step weirder than that Norwegian.