The Trans Rights Debate

I'm confused about this 'female brain' stuff. Is this the "women's brains are smaller" argument rearing it's ugly head again?

:tsk tsk:



I personally find it amazing that people are so desperate to back up their arguments that they're now trying to invent something called a 'female brain' when the real difference between a man and a woman is much easier to see... and a bit lower down. :wink:

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Originally Posted by archie

I have come across Google, but I have never seen a reference to people having male sex organs and a female brain. I would think that would be highly contentious, given views about womens intellectual capacity that have been held until recently. There's a real tension with this approach. If society shapes gender then the idea that a 'lady brain' would determine gender becomes harder to defend. But anyway, having followed your advice to use Google this popped up https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...%20the%20sexes.

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More reading:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6677918/
https://research.vu.nl/ws/portalfile...on.pdf#page=76

Anecdotally from me, it would seem there clearly are generalised differences between male and female brains in sexual function, eg. physical attraction. But not intellectual capacity. I don't think it has to be contentious?

Anyway, I'm not claiming expertise in any of this. I set out for a half-arsed attempt to answer the question: is there a scientific biological underpinning to transgender? Or is is just made up woke ideology, blokes in dresses etc as the more excitable elements of twitter would have it? It appears pretty much conclusive to me that gender dysphoria/incongruence or whatever you want to call it is a real thing and I think it more likely than not that we will be able to explain in time.

But, wtfdik? I'm just a punter on a football forum.

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Originally Posted by Keith_M

I'm confused about this 'female brain' stuff. Is this the "women's brains are smaller" argument rearing it's ugly head again?

:tsk tsk:



I personally find it amazing that people are so desperate to back up their arguments that they're now trying to invent something called a 'female brain' when the real difference between a man and a woman is much easier to see... and a bit lower down. :wink:

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I'm not trying to invent anything and, ime, women's intellectual capacity is not in question.

I personally find it amazing people are so small minded as to discount the possibility of different neurology when there are clearly sex-typical biological differences in many other areas of the body besides the "lower down", without attempting to look for what's being researched currently. But ho hum.

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Originally Posted by Keith_M

I'm confused about this 'female brain' stuff. Is this the "women's brains are smaller" argument rearing it's ugly head again?

:tsk tsk:



I personally find it amazing that people are so desperate to back up their arguments that they're now trying to invent something called a 'female brain' when the real difference between a man and a woman is much easier to see... and a bit lower down. :wink:

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I will repeat the JK Rowling quote, seems apt.

Men defining what a woman is, what women should and shouldn’t fear, what women should and shouldn’t say, what rights women should be fine with giving up and, of course, what constitutes ‘real’ misogyny: get a bloody mirror. That’s real misogyny, looking right back at you.

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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

I'm not trying to invent anything and, ime, women's intellectual capacity is not in question.

I personally find it amazing people are so small minded as to discount the possibility of different neurology when there are clearly sex-typical biological differences in many other areas of the body besides the "lower down", without attempting to look for what's being researched currently. But ho hum.

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Many see male/female brain as junk science but I think we can put it down to we don't know.

What is clear is the majority of trans groups are against the science and also the hunt for difference in genetics or brain function. I saw one trans group a few month ago equate it to the hunt for the gay gene.

They feared if there was a neurological test that says you were trans, then the people that failed the test as it were, would be called faking it. They say if you feel your trans you are and science shouldn't come into it. Whilst I think scientific discovery should happen I agree with them, if you want to be in another gender then that's enough.

People aren't faking it, they wouldn't go through the abuse for the sake of it. I'd welcome all rights bar a few caveats the infringe on women's rights. I think all but a few dinosaurs would agree

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Originally Posted by marinello59

The key phrase there being no official instruction was given. So we can all pretend that no ‘unofficial’ pressure was applied to save Government face. That’s how politics work, smoke and mirrors.

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Exactly the reason there was a U-turn in the Isly Bryson case was because it gained international news coverage and was an embarrassment to the SG.

The reason nothing is done about the about Katie Dolatowski is because it never received anything like the same media coverage so its business as usual with the same stupid policy of housing prisoners according to how they identify rather than the reality of biological sex.

I don't think either Isly Bryson or Katie Dolatowski are genuine trans people they are playing the system, Katie Dolatowski is a male pedophile who identifies as a women in order to gain access to women only spaces, like supermarket female toilets to prey of female children.

Katie Dolatowski is male but identifies as a women, and was convicted of filming a 12 year old girl with the mobile phone over the partition wall of a female toilet cubicle of a Halbeath Asda Store, same person grabbed a 10 year old girl by the face in a Morrisons Store in Kirkcaldy forced her into the female toilet cubicle and sexually assaulted her.

This person had stayed for 71 days at a domestic violence refuge for mothers and children in Leeds and a women only hostel in Fife.

Katie Dolatowski was jailed at Polmot young offenders institution for male offenders, but after a physical assault on a fellow male inmate there has been transferred to the women only Cornton Vale Prison.

https://news.stv.tv/west-central/sco...o-cornton-vale

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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

I'm not trying to invent anything and, ime, women's intellectual capacity is not in question.

I personally find it amazing people are so small minded as to discount the possibility of different neurology when there are clearly sex-typical biological differences in many other areas of the body besides the "lower down", without attempting to look for what's being researched currently. But ho hum.

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Interesting that at least one of the academics involved is female, which helps to remove any accusations of gender-based bias.

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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

I'm not trying to invent anything and, ime, women's intellectual capacity is not in question.

I personally find it amazing people are so small minded as to discount the possibility of different neurology when there are clearly sex-typical biological differences in many other areas of the body besides the "lower down", without attempting to look for what's being researched currently. But ho hum.

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Good post. If we all keep an open mind there’s more chance of bringing people together.

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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

Did you read the article at the link?

There is likely a biological reality that someone with male sex organs can have a female brain and vice versa. Why would you stridently choose one biological reality over the other?

You come across on here as a good match for the description of Graham Linehan in archie's link:



In your case, I would contend, it's not much of a mask.

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Nothing strident about my choice. It's the biological reality we know. The 'female brain and vice versa' research is a long way from being that.

As for your quote, if you don't think a man can empathise with women's rights, how do you feel about a woman saying the same thing?:

https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/statu...7Ctwgr%5Etweet

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Originally Posted by James310

I will repeat the JK Rowling quote, seems apt.

Men defining what a woman is, what women should and shouldn’t fear, what women should and shouldn’t say, what rights women should be fine with giving up and, of course, what constitutes ‘real’ misogyny: get a bloody mirror. That’s real misogyny, looking right back at you.

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Very apt quote John, I’ve often seen posters on this thread telling women how they should think/feel about these issues…

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Originally Posted by James310

If I was a woman artist I would be pretty annoyed at this.

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Originally Posted by CapitalGreen

Very apt quote John, I’ve often seen posters on this thread telling women how they should think/feel about these issues…

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My guess is apples and oranges.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

Haven't been on the HG board in a long time so forgive me if I'm late to this and I don't propose to read all 89 pages.

I do have a question though.

Does anyone taking part in this debate actually know any trans women? Serious question.

Wild how no one has commented on the Scottish Trans Alliance statement yet. Couldn't be more relevant and actually re-assuring to all sides.

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Originally Posted by AgentDaleCooper

Wild how no one has commented on the Scottish Trans Alliance statement yet. Couldn't be more relevant and actually re-assuring to all sides.

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They pretty much say Katie Dolatowski is in the wrong prison and should be moved

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Originally Posted by Lester B

Haven't been on the HG board in a long time so forgive me if I'm late to this and I don't propose to read all 89 pages.

I do have a question though.

Does anyone taking part in this debate actually know any trans women? Serious question.

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Yes

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Lester B

Haven't been on the HG board in a long time so forgive me if I'm late to this and I don't propose to read all 89 pages.

I do have a question though.

Does anyone taking part in this debate actually know any trans women? Serious question.

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Yes.

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Originally Posted by Kato

Yes

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

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Thanks for responding. And does this knowledge make a difference to your views on the trans debate?

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Originally Posted by marinello59

Yes.

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Thanks. Sorry to repeat myself but does this knowledge make a difference to your views on the trans debate?

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Originally Posted by Lester B

Haven't been on the HG board in a long time so forgive me if I'm late to this and I don't propose to read all 89 pages.

I do have a question though.

Does anyone taking part in this debate actually know any trans women? Serious question.

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Yes, and it definitely informs how i think about the issue. I think in their cases it would just feel totally wrong to me (not to mention them) to refer to them as men, and I think they would all be vulnerable in the extreme if they for some reason found themselves in a men's prison. From what i have gathered, gender dysphoria is an absolutely brutal condition.

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Originally Posted by AgentDaleCooper

Yes

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Ta! Sorry;same question as above

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

They pretty much say Katie Dolatowski is in the wrong prison and should be moved

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as in they think she should be moved back to a men's prison?

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Originally Posted by AgentDaleCooper

Yes, and it definitely informs how i think about the issue. I think in their cases it would just feel totally wrong to me (not to mention them) to refer to them as men, and I think they would all be vulnerable in the extreme if they for some reason found themselves in a men's prison. From what i have gathered, gender dysphoria is an absolutely brutal condition.

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Sorry. You edited that. I agree entirely. It has been an education for me and I couldn't be more pro trans people now. A trans woman I know never seemed comfortable in their own skin before they came out. Now they are. They've been subject to some quite appalling abuse online which nearly broke them but thankfully not. They are now who they want to be and have my unqualified support. And to reply to your other post here too the STA statement absolutely and totally hits the mark!

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Originally Posted by Lester B

Haven't been on the HG board in a long time so forgive me if I'm late to this and I don't propose to read all 89 pages.

I do have a question though.

Does anyone taking part in this debate actually know any trans women? Serious question.

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Yes, a few

And a trans man.

It's been said before, but most of us will encounter trans people without necessarily knowing.

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Originally Posted by archie

I have come across Google, but I have never seen a reference to people having male sex organs and a female brain. I would think that would be highly contentious, given views about womens intellectual capacity that have been held until recently. There's a real tension with this approach. If society shapes gender then the idea that a 'lady brain' would determine gender becomes harder to defend. But anyway, having followed your advice to use Google this popped up https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/03/210325115316.htm#:~:text=%22Sex%20differences%20ar e%20sexy%2C%20but,that%20differ%20between%20the%20 sexes.

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My 10 years old grand nephew plays with dolls, no interest in cars or anything boys are supposed to be interested in.

I think he has a female brain.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Yes, a few

And a trans man.

It's been said before, but most of us will encounter trans people without necessarily knowing.

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Good point about meeting without knowing. I've never knowingly met a trans man actually. Must have though as I talk to everyone I meet! Have known a few trans women. They're definitely women!!!

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Originally Posted by Lester B

Good point about meeting without knowing. I've never knowingly met a trans man actually. Must have though as I talk to everyone I meet! Have known a few trans women. They're definitely women!!!

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What makes them 'definitely women'?

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Originally Posted by AgentDaleCooper

as in they think she should be moved back to a men's prison?

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ScottishTrans
·
7h
It is our view that anyone who has committed sexually violent crimes, and who poses a risk to women, should not be housed with women on the female estate

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Originally Posted by LewysGot2

What makes them women?

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Have you met them? They identify as women, they suffer from gender dysphoria and they have a GRC.

You're going to tell me differently I take it. Have a go. I look forward to it

I know one trans female and two trans men, one I would call my pal

I don't now but at first occasionally called him his female name. I would shrivel and apologise and he would just laugh at me. He said his mum still forgets and he doesn't care. He cares if people say offensive things about his transition. He also said the NHS is a joke regarding transitioning. Waiting list is enormous so he paid a massive amount for top surgery. Will save up then get bottom surgery

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

I know one trans female and two trans men, one I would call my pal

I don't now but at first occasionally called him his female name. I would shrivel and apologise and he would just laugh at me. He said his mum still forgets and he doesn't care. He cares if people say offensive things about his transition. He also said the NHS is a joke regarding transitioning. Waiting list is enormous so he paid a massive amount for top surgery. Will save up then get bottom surgery

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I did that name thing once. Still cringe about it. They were cool about it. Said in the grand scheme of things it was nothing. You can bet I've never done it again :wink: