Scottish Independence

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Originally Posted by Andy Bee

Like everything else it's on a fixed budget allocated to us from the English Government.

There you go again, trying to belittle the person involved rather than the content itself, you obviously didn't watch any of it you just came straight on here trying to character assassinate.

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It's really annoying isn't it when someone posts an article etc and it's immediately dismissed as being from X or Y. Happens all the time when I post something, oh it's Alex Massie who writes the same article all the time, oh it's in The Times of London so why would I read that etc (although appreciate not you)

Why would testing kids at 15 cost more, why would sending them to school later cost more etc? Why not trial it now, that's perfectly within the gift of the SG with the powers we have now. Doesn't need Independence for a lot of the stuff to happen.

And you assume after Indy there is more money, not sure where this extra funding comes from. It's not a fixed budget when the Scottish Parliament has tax raising powers and the SNP have boasted about how higher income taxes etc increases their budget to spend on public services. It is a flexible budget but I do understand part of it is fixed but the SG has plenty of flexibility on what it spends it on (Again not the English Government doesn't exist)

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

It's really annoying isn't it when someone posts an article etc and it's immediately dismissed as being from X or Y. Happens all the time when I post something, oh it's Alex Massie who writes the same article all the time, oh it's in The Times of London so why would I read that etc (although appreciate not you)

Why would testing kids at 15 cost more, why would sending them to school later cost more etc? Why not trial it now, that's perfectly within the gift of the SG with the powers we have now.

And you assume after Indy there is more money, not sure where this extra funding comes from. It's not a fixed budget when the Scottish Parliament has tax raising powers and the SNP have boasted about how higher income taxes etc increases their budget to spend on public services. It is a flexible budget but I do understand part of it is fixed but the SG has plenty of flexibility on what it spends it on (Again not the English Government doesn't exist)

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It's not annoying at all, it just tells me a lot about the person doing it that's all. :wink:

You're cherry picking again, watch the films, take notes if you need to, write down everything you would like to see happen here and then come back to me and tell me they're all possible within devolution, deal?

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

And you assume after Indy there is more money, not sure where this extra funding comes from. It's not a fixed budget when the Scottish Parliament has tax raising powers and the SNP have boasted about how higher income taxes etc increases their budget to spend on public services. It is a flexible budget but I do understand part of it is fixed but the SG has plenty of flexibility on what it spends it on (Again not the English Government doesn't exist)

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As opposed to the UKs amazing budgeting skills that have only had a surplus in 5 years since 1970, wonder where their extra funding comes from?

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Originally Posted by Mon Dieu4

As opposed to the UKs amazing budgeting skills that have only had a surplus in 5 years since 1970, wonder where their extra funding comes from?

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Ah don't M, he'll come back with the ludicrous Government debt and I'll call it national savings, all hell will break loose and I'll be here all night. :greengrin

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Originally Posted by Andy Bee

It's not annoying at all, it just tells me a lot about the person doing it that's all. :wink:

You're cherry picking again, watch the films, take notes if you need to, write down everything you would like to see happen here and then come back to me and tell me they're all possible within devolution, deal?

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You specifically mentioned testing at 15 for example, we don't need Independence for that. That can happen whenever the SG wants. It's a general point that many of those things can happen today if the will was there. It's never going to happen though, Scotland is Scotland and saying aren't Denmark brilliant (in a fast show voice) let's be like Denmark is just words and sound bytes.

Mark Blythe who was appointed as an economic advisor to the SG said the following.

- Comparing Scotland to Denmark is like saying “I’m a supermodel because I have legs”—just being small and European isn’t enough.
- Denmark’s success took centuries; Scotland would need a clear, realistic economic plan, not just aspirations.
- He warns that leaving the UK would be “Brexit on steroids”—much harder than Brexit itself, with real economic pain likely.
- Blyth says Scotland needs to focus on what it actually exports and how to build a credible business model, rather than just copying Nordic countries.
- He’s also said that confidence in a new Scottish currency would be a huge challenge, and that instant prosperity is unrealistic.

So, he’s not saying Scotland can’t succeed, but he thinks the “be like Denmark” idea is far too simplistic"

I would agree with him on these points and he would be far more qualified than Lesley Riddoch who seems wheeled out on every BBC show at the moment for the Independent supporting voice.

FYI - Mark Blythe is currently the William R. Rhodes Professor of International Economics and Professor of International and Public Affairs at Brown University. At Brown, Blyth additionally directs the William R. Rhodes Center for International Economics and Finance at the Watson Institute for International and Public Affairs.

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

You specifically mentioned testing at 15 for example, we don't need Independence for that. That can happen whenever the SG wants. It's a general point that many of those things can happen today if the will was there. It's never going to happen though, Scotland is Scotland and saying aren't Denmark brilliant (in a fast show voice) let's be like Denmark is just words and sound bytes.

Mark Blythe who was appointed as an economic advisor to the SG said the following.

- Comparing Scotland to Denmark is like saying “I’m a supermodel because I have legs”—just being small and European isn’t enough.
- Denmark’s success took centuries; Scotland would need a clear, realistic economic plan, not just aspirations.
- He warns that leaving the UK would be “Brexit on steroids”—much harder than Brexit itself, with real economic pain likely.
- Blyth says Scotland needs to focus on what it actually exports and how to build a credible business model, rather than just copying Nordic countries.
- He’s also said that confidence in a new Scottish currency would be a huge challenge, and that instant prosperity is unrealistic.

So, he’s not saying Scotland can’t succeed, but he thinks the “be like Denmark” idea is far too simplistic"

I would agree with him on these points and he would be far more qualified than Lesley Riddoch who seems wheeled out on every BBC show at the moment for the Independent supporting voice.

FYI - Mark Blythe is currently the William R. Rhodes Professor of International Economics and Professor of International and Public Affairs at Brown University. At Brown, Blyth additionally directs the William R. Rhodes Center for International Economics and Finance at the Watson Institute for International and Public Affairs.

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I know who Mark Blythe is, I listened to a talk he did live at the Festival of Economics a couple of years ago, or should I say live via a link from America because he got out of Dundee, his home town because he thought his opportunities were limited there. He's also a supporter of Independence, funny that.

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

You specifically mentioned testing at 15 for example, we don't need Independence for that. That can happen whenever the SG wants. It's a general point that many of those things can happen today if the will was there. It's never going to happen though, Scotland is Scotland and saying aren't Denmark brilliant (in a fast show voice) let's be like Denmark is just words and sound bytes.

Mark Blythe who was appointed as an economic advisor to the SG said the following.

- Comparing Scotland to Denmark is like saying “I’m a supermodel because I have legs”—just being small and European isn’t enough.
- Denmark’s success took centuries; Scotland would need a clear, realistic economic plan, not just aspirations.
- He warns that leaving the UK would be “Brexit on steroids”—much harder than Brexit itself, with real economic pain likely.
- Blyth says Scotland needs to focus on what it actually exports and how to build a credible business model, rather than just copying Nordic countries.
- He’s also said that confidence in a new Scottish currency would be a huge challenge, and that instant prosperity is unrealistic.

So, he’s not saying Scotland can’t succeed, but he thinks the “be like Denmark” idea is far too simplistic"

I would agree with him on these points and he would be far more qualified than Lesley Riddoch who seems wheeled out on every BBC show at the moment for the Independent supporting voice.

FYI - Mark Blythe is currently the William R. Rhodes Professor of International Economics and Professor of International and Public Affairs at Brown University. At Brown, Blyth additionally directs the William R. Rhodes Center for International Economics and Finance at the Watson Institute for International and Public Affairs.

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I’m 99% sure Mark Blythe came round to be in favour of independence.

I agree with his point - that argument is simplistic. Every country has its own complicated history of dealing with threats, opportunities etc that leads it to be where it is today.

Is Estonia not a fairly interesting contrast though? They emerged from the break up of the Soviet Union, not known for it’s prosperity or wonderful quality of life, yet after only a few decades you wouldn’t find many who would want to return to their previous union?


We can only start where we are, with what we have. I don’t doubt it could be ugly for a while (the point I think Blythe makes) but that it would come round to being a much better place for us in the long term.

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Originally Posted by Smartie

I’m 99% sure Mark Blythe came round to be in favour of independence.

I agree with his point - that argument is simplistic. Every country has its own complicated history of dealing with threats, opportunities etc that leads it to be where it is today.

Is Estonia not a fairly interesting contrast though? They emerged from the break up of the Soviet Union, not known for it’s prosperity or wonderful quality of life, yet after only a few decades you wouldn’t find many who would want to return to their previous union?


We can only start where we are, with what we have. I don’t doubt it could be ugly for a while (the point I think Blythe makes) but that it would come round to being a much better place for us in the long term.

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He is indeed a supporter or was a supporter of Independence hence his appointment to advise the SG and hence his dropping when he said what he said.

Estonia as I understand it is a very IT/Digital country, they really embraced the digital economy and are seen as world leaders. Again though I am unsure why Independence suddenly unlocks Scotland being able to be a more digitally focused economy/country. (We still don't have a NHS App for example, not being Independent hasn't made that fail)

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Originally Posted by Smartie

I’m 99% sure Mark Blythe came round to be in favour of independence.

I agree with his point - that argument is simplistic. Every country has its own complicated history of dealing with threats, opportunities etc that leads it to be where it is today.

Is Estonia not a fairly interesting contrast though? They emerged from the break up of the Soviet Union, not known for it’s prosperity or wonderful quality of life, yet after only a few decades you wouldn’t find many who would want to return to their previous union?


We can only start where we are, with what we have. I don’t doubt it could be ugly for a while (the point I think Blythe makes) but that it would come round to being a much better place for us in the long term.

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There's many experts who think Scotland is in a unique advantageous position because of the timing and the prospect of starting with a blank slate with the resources we have. Using the argument of "but the SNP failed at -insert SNP failure here to try stop that is just crazy.

It's interesting to note that I just flicked back to post 1 of this thread, hard to believe it's been going over 12 years and started before the 2014 referendum, it's like Groundhog Day, same old, same old.

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

It's really annoying isn't it when someone posts an article etc and it's immediately dismissed as being from X or Y. Happens all the time when I post something, oh it's Alex Massie who writes the same article all the time, oh it's in The Times of London so why would I read that etc (although appreciate not you)

Why would testing kids at 15 cost more, why would sending them to school later cost more etc? Why not trial it now, that's perfectly within the gift of the SG with the powers we have now. Doesn't need Independence for a lot of the stuff to happen.

And you assume after Indy there is more money, not sure where this extra funding comes from. It's not a fixed budget when the Scottish Parliament has tax raising powers and the SNP have boasted about how higher income taxes etc increases their budget to spend on public services. It is a flexible budget but I do understand part of it is fixed but the SG has plenty of flexibility on what it spends it on (Again not the English Government doesn't exist)

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Here's what happens if scotland raises more tax

If Scotland increases income tax, the Scottish Government's block grant from the UK government will be adjusted to reflect the change.*Specifically,*the block grant will be reduced to account for the additional revenue Scotland will raise through its own income tax system.*This reduction is known as a Block Grant Adjustment (BGA).


Raises more money equals the same amount in the Scottish budget.

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Originally Posted by Andy Bee

And you're qualified to make that assumption or is it just an opinion of a self proclaimed loather of the SNP?

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What qualification would you need to point out that calling the UK government the English government is erroneous?

Scotland is governed by the UK Govt. If you can remember when Holyrood was first convened the regional councils, Lothian, Strathclyde etc were closed down. Holyrood is a rationalised version of that set-up although symbolically, and in some people's imaginations politically, it's a more powerful version. It probably has marginally more power than some of the mayor-ships in England.

It's a regional govt of the UK, which is ruled from London.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

What qualification would you need to point out that calling the UK government the English government is erroneous?

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An 'O' Grade in bull****tery, next question?

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

The current Labour govt can in no way be described as left of centre. So far they have only went after the old, disabled and poor while totally protecting the richest in society. And they are a year in so it’s a choice rather than timing.


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Not everyone has come to that conclusion yet, but in time they will.

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Originally Posted by Andy Bee

An 'O' Grade in bull****tery, next question?

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Stewart McDonald ex MP thinks its wrong and Pete Wishart MP said the colony stuff is nonsense and if he said it when canvassing he'd be laughed out the street.

I think the colony stuff is hugely offensive to the nations who actually were UK colonies. They wouldn't have multiple prime ministers from their nation, they wouldn't have representation in the UK parliament proportional to their population size, the wouldn't have devolved education, health, policing etc, they wouldn't have the opportunity to vote to leave the nation and then vote to stay in a fair election.

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Originally Posted by Kato

Scotland is governed by the UK Govt. If you can remember when Holyrood was first convened the regional councils, Lothian, Strathclyde etc were closed down. Holyrood is a rationalised version of that set-up although symbolically, and in some people's imaginations politically, it's a more powerful version. It probably has marginally more power than some of the mayor-ships in England.

It's a regional govt of the UK, which is ruled from London.

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Nah Scottish Government has control of education, health, housing, transport and policing I'd say that is some of the most important areas to Scots. The comparison to mayorships is wide of the mark.

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Originally Posted by Kato

Scotland is governed by the UK Govt. If you can remember when Holyrood was first convened the regional councils, Lothian, Strathclyde etc were closed down. Holyrood is a rationalised version of that set-up although symbolically, and in some people's imaginations politically, it's a more powerful version. It probably has marginally more power than some of the mayor-ships in England.

It's a regional govt of the UK, which is ruled from London.

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The Scottish Parliament is one of the most powerful devolved parliaments in the world. It has extensive powers over areas like health, education, justice, and significant control over taxation and welfare— way more than Wales or Northern Ireland and many other devolved legislatures globally. I am sure there are more powerful devolved parliaments but not many.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Stewart McDonald ex MP thinks its wrong and Pete Wishart MP said the colony stuff is nonsense and if he said it when canvassing he'd be laughed out the street.

I think the colony stuff is hugely offensive to the nations who actually were UK colonies. They wouldn't have multiple prime ministers from their nation, they wouldn't have representation in the UK parliament proportional to their population size, the wouldn't have devolved education, health, policing etc, they wouldn't have the opportunity to vote to leave the nation and then vote to stay in a fair election.

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It is laughable as it's certainly not the lived experience of the people of Scotland. They don't wake up thinking about how to break free of their colonial status each morning. It's something though that's more attractive to the extreme element hence why it's being promoted by the likes of Craig Murray and Tommy Sheridan.

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

It is laughable as it's certainly not the lived experience of the people of Scotland. They don't wake up thinking about how to break free of their colonial status each morning. It's something though that's more attractive to the extreme element hence why it's being promoted by the likes of Craig Murray and Tommy Sheridan.

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45% is an "extreme element?"

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

The Scottish Parliament is one of the most powerful devolved parliaments in the world. It has extensive powers over areas like health, education, justice, and significant control over taxation and welfare— way more than Wales or Northern Ireland and many other devolved legislatures globally. I am sure there are more powerful devolved parliaments but not many.

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All the US states, Australian states, Canadian provinces and German states have more power than the Scottish government. The UK is one of the most centralised democracies in the world.


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Originally Posted by Kato

45% is an "extreme element?"

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45% don't think Scotland is a colony?

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

All the US states, Australian states, Canadian provinces and German states have more power than the Scottish government. The UK is one of the most centralised democracies in the world.


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I did say 'devolved' parliaments, in some of those cases their powers are protected by the Constitution.

While German states have some exclusive powers, but most big policy areas are shared with the federal government, while Scotland has clearer control in devolved areas like health, education, and justice so I would say it is more powerful.

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

I did say 'devolved' parliaments, in some of those cases their powers are protected by the Constitution.

While German states have some exclusive powers, but most big policy areas are shared with the federal government, while Scotland has clearer control in devolved areas like health, education, and justice so I would say it is more powerful.

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If you’re not raising the tax yourself then there is no power. Just spending authority. All of those parliaments have wide tax raising power. The SG has the ability to vary income tax and that’s about it.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

If you’re not raising the tax yourself then there is no power. Just spending authority. All of those parliaments have wide tax raising power. The SG has the ability to vary income tax and that’s about it.


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Income tax is devolved as is Land and Buildings Transaction Tax (why can't it just be called Stamp Duty) there is also Air Departure tax and I believe the landfill tax is devolved as well. And of course a new tax could be proposed and agreed as well if required.

I understand it's not what you want but that's then up to the Indy side to put forward proposals for change.

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

Income tax is devolved as is Land and Buildings Transaction Tax (why can't it just be called Stamp Duty) there is also Air Departure tax and I believe the landfill tax is devolved as well. And of course a new tax could be proposed and agreed as well if required.

I understand it's not what you want but that's then up to the Indy side to put forward proposals for change.

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And, as pointed out, every penny raised in Scotland by taxation is a penny removed from the money the government in England givesbacktoScotland. So the Scottish budget remains the same.

The only way taxation in Scotland can be increased and be effective is if Scotland was independent. Even little Iceland has more control.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

And, as pointed out, every penny raised in Scotland by taxation is a penny removed from the money the government in England givesbacktoScotland. So the Scottish budget remains the same.

The only way taxation in Scotland can be increased and be effective is if Scotland was independent. Even little Iceland has more control.

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Makes you wonder what's the point of having any Scottish taxes at all then? But you miss the crucial point that if tax revenue rises faster than the rest of the UK Scotland keeps the extra amount. Otherwise there is little point raising taxes in Scotland. Why do you think income tax is devolved then, just for show?

Here is an explanation, happy to help.

If Scottish tax revenues grow faster than the rest of the UK, the Scottish Government keeps the difference. The Block Grant Adjustment (BGA) reduces the block grant by an amount based on tax revenues in the rest of the UK, so if Scotland raises more tax than expected or grows faster, its total budget is better off by that extra revenue. Conversely, if Scottish revenues grow slower, the budget is smaller, so the system shares risk but rewards Scotland for stronger tax performance.

If what you suggested was true there would be no point in any kind of tax raising powers in Scotland.

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

The Scottish Parliament is one of the most powerful devolved parliaments in the world. It has extensive powers over areas like health, education, justice, and significant control over taxation and welfare— way more than Wales or Northern Ireland and many other devolved legislatures globally. I am sure there are more powerful devolved parliaments but not many.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Nah Scottish Government has control of education, health, housing, transport and policing I'd say that is some of the most important areas to Scots. The comparison to mayorships is wide of the mark.

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At least you two are agreeing on something.

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

45% don't think Scotland is a colony?

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I never argued that it is. I said above its part of the UK.


There is a large part of The Scottish population feel it is and a large part of The UK establishment think it is too.

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Originally Posted by Kato

I never argued that it is. I said above its part of the UK.


There is a large part of The Scottish population feel it is and a large part of The UK establishment think it is too.

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What's your evidence for a large part of the Scottish population thinking Scotland is a colony? And I mean actual evidence for the colony part, not just they support Independence. We have Indy supporters on here who think the colony chat is a load of rubbish.

As far as I know there are no polls or research that has sought public opinion on if Scotland is a colony or not? It may exist but I haven't seen it.