Coronavirus

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Originally Posted by danhibees1875

Things that have been on and off throughout the whole thing really - it's not the "Christmas free for all" it gets painted as from what I can gather so far.

I don't know if it's necessarily right to be doing it and I don't want to argue the ins and outs of that, but I feel like what they're trying to do isn't as bad as seems to get made out.

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Fair enough I think when we're perhaps just weeks away from starting the vaccination programme, after more than 8 months of really tough restrictions, I cannot understand why we would be putting the hard work at risk for the sake of a few days.

As far as I'm concerned the questions which have to be asked are "would the restrictions they're considering easing be getting eased if it wasn't Christmas and is the easing of restrictions complying with current public health advice?"

If the answer is no on both counts then it's crazy, even if it's not going to be a "free for all".

Public health and saving lives is either the number one priority or it's not.

Midlothian Council Leader Councillor Derek Milligan has confirmed the Scottish Government has just informed us we are to remain in level 3. He says; “This is disappointing for business and communities given the hard work and preparation that has gone into the plans for opening up tomorrow. Many businesses have taken staff back from furlough and placed orders for goods worth tens of thousands of pounds, some of which is perishable. This decision will make an already volatile situation worse. “We are also disappointed at the short notice given the importance of this decision. On Monday last week we received an email to say we would remain in level 3, by the Tuesday we received word that we would be moving to level 2 and now today we hear that we are back in level 3 based on the data, which was only shared with us this morning.

I like the SG but their role in the past few weeks has been nothing short of shambolic.

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Originally Posted by Sir David Gray

Fair enough I think when we're perhaps just weeks away from starting the vaccination programme, after more than 8 months of really tough restrictions, I cannot understand why we would be putting the hard work at risk for the sake of a few days.

As far as I'm concerned the questions which have to be asked are "would the restrictions they're considering easing be getting eased if it wasn't Christmas and is the easing of restrictions complying with current public health advice?"

If the answer is no on both counts then it's crazy, even if it's not going to be a "free for all".

Public health and saving lives is either the number one priority or it's not.

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Good post.

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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

You didn't need to be Admiral Akbar to see that!

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That reference has almost cheered me up!

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Originally Posted by Sir David Gray

It would be really interesting to see if other countries in Europe that place greater religious significance towards Christmas are adopting a similar approach.

I'm thinking countries like Malta etc.

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The gist of things in Italy from an Italian friend:

Italy is still considering the question of Christmas at the moment.

The very popular and loved Christmas markets are banned.

Ministers are saying the cenone, the 'big dinner' at Christmas will have to be considerably smaller.

Speculation that restrictions on travelling between tiers to see relatives, home parties and shopping might be relaxed but not confirmed. Only Yellow (low-risk) zones can travel between their own tiers currently. Most of the country is in tiers above.

Possible evening opening of restaurants and bars at Christmas and New Year with rule of six, not confirmed.

Rule of six expected to remain for Christmas get-togethers so probably only immediate family.

Gatherings in squares for Christmas and New Year will not be allowed, no exceptions.

Churches remain open currently with Masses happening every day. Not known if the authorities would revert to locking them down as in Spring should figures get worse.

The Vatican are putting a Christmas tree in St Peter's Square!

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Originally Posted by Sir David Gray

Fair enough I think when we're perhaps just weeks away from starting the vaccination programme, after more than 8 months of really tough restrictions, I cannot understand why we would be putting the hard work at risk for the sake of a few days.

As far as I'm concerned the questions which have to be asked are "would the restrictions they're considering easing be getting eased if it wasn't Christmas and is the easing of restrictions complying with current public health advice?"

If the answer is no on both counts then it's crazy, even if it's not going to be a "free for all".

Public health and saving lives is either the number one priority or it's not.

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All of that is absolutely fair and the arguements for not changing anything. :agree:

The only bit I'd disagree with really is that if there was ever a time to consider making an exception for then it's the Christmas period.

For what it's worth it's not just the UK. Macron is due to speak tomorrow night and it's expected that a lot of current restrictions, including visiting peoples' houses, will be lifted in time for Christmas.

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Originally Posted by danhibees1875

All of that is absolutely fair and the arguements for not changing anything. :agree:

The only bit I'd disagree with really is that if there was ever a time to consider making an exception for then it's the Christmas period.

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And maybe it’s an acceptance that a lot of people would have flouted tighter rules anyway so by putting in place some relaxation they hope that more people will follow what might be deemed an ‘as far as possible temporary adjustment’.

The hyperbole around it all doesn’t help either way I’d suggest.

Personally I’m just not gonna bother and will probably have a big family bash as and when the vaccine roll out allows.

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Originally Posted by Sir David Gray

It's not going to be "normal" but non-essential shops are likely to be back open in areas where they had been previously shut, people from high prevalence areas will be allowed to travel wherever they want to within the UK (something we have been repeatedly told is one of the most effective ways of driving down transmission), different households being allowed to mix together in each other's homes (something else which was deemed highly effective at driving down transmission and keeping the virus away from the elderly and vulnerable) pubs probably open again until 10pm.

The whole thing's bonkers.

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Completely agree. I refuse to believe there will be no restrictions on travel but as you say the media seem to think we'll be able to go anywhere in the UK. Madness.

Breakdown of today's cases by council area;

Glasgow - 223
South Lanarkshire - 89
North Lanarkshire - 84
Renfrewshire - 76
Fife - 60
West Lothian - 39
Edinburgh - 31
North Ayrshire - 29
East Renfrewshire - 29
East Ayrshire - 28
South Ayrshire - 25
East Dunbartonshire - 23
West Dunbartonshire - 22
Angus - 22
Aberdeenshire - 20
Aberdeen - 20
Stirling - 17
Perth and Kinross - 17
Dundee - 16
Midlothian - 15
Highland - 13
Falkirk - 13
Inverclyde - 11
East Lothian - 10
Scottish Borders - 8
Clackmannanshire - 7
Dumfries and Galloway - 5
Argyll and Bute - 5
Moray - 2

Surely it's either safe to meet in people's houses in small numbers or it's not.

If there is an acceptance it's the latter then relaxing restrictions, slightly or otherwise, for Christmas is going to lead to a rise in cases, serious illness for some and death for an unlucky few. If it's the former then it begs the question why we can't do so all the time.

It's just part of an increasingly confusing set of messages coming from government.

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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

Surely it's either safe to meet in people's houses in small numbers or it's not.

If there is an acceptance it's the latter then relaxing restrictions, slightly or otherwise, for Christmas is going to lead to a rise in cases, serious illness for some and death for an unlucky few. If it's the former then it begs the question why we can't do so all the time.

It's just part of an increasingly confusing set of messages coming from government.

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You would think so, especially on the back of supposed toughening tiers in England from 2nd December.

Any sort of coherent plan looks to have disappeared a long time ago, on both sides of the border.

As you say, it's either safe or it's not.

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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

Surely it's either safe to meet in people's houses in small numbers or it's not.

If there is an acceptance it's the latter then relaxing restrictions, slightly or otherwise, for Christmas is going to lead to a rise in cases, serious illness for some and death for an unlucky few. If it's the former then it begs the question why we can't do so all the time.

It's just part of an increasingly confusing set of messages coming from government.

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Personally I think, within reason, it's safe enough. Probably not as easy as safe or not as using that method nothing is safe.
Certainly no worse than going to a cafe/restaurant and meeting people there - probably safer in the majority of instances.

Obviously you can't be having house parties with 20 people or doing a house crawl visiting every one you know at the same time though - and I think it's people doing that which made it an easier target to just have a broad brush tarring any household meetings as being unsafe.

I think in hindsight it was easier to say and go with that and make it more black and white rather than saying you can meet 1/2 other households and no more than 3/4 in a week as all of a sudden that gets complicated/blurry.

That's part of the problem they now have I think. Whilst at the moment the idea that I can head into town and walk round the botanic gardens before going to a restaurant (with all the interactions and communal areas that come with it) with friends for lunch, then do a bit of shopping whilst all the time I'm not allowed to drive to Fife and visit my parents in their garden raises an eyebrow (generous), the idea of that still being the rule at Christmas just wouldn't wash.

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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

Surely it's either safe to meet in people's houses in small numbers or it's not.

If there is an acceptance it's the latter then relaxing restrictions, slightly or otherwise, for Christmas is going to lead to a rise in cases, serious illness for some and death for an unlucky few. If it's the former then it begs the question why we can't do so all the time.

It's just part of an increasingly confusing set of messages coming from government.

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We all know it’s not safe. Sturgeon knows it’s not safe.
It’s down to ourselves, there is no real leadership being shown on this. However most of us know what to do and will be doing it to protect others. In fact I will go as far as to say the vast majority of us will do the right thing, as painful as that will be. If Xmas is about peace on Earth and goodwill to all men then we have a chance to demonstrate that’s who we really are.

Qantas CEO Alan Joyce has said that Covid Vaccination will be mandatory for International flyers and they are looking st domestic flyers too. Think this is the first of many airlines that will announce similar, a subtle way to mandate the vaccine. I’m not against the Covid vaccine however I don’t think it should be enforced if you want to travel.

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Originally Posted by Keyser Sauzee

Qantas CEO Alan Joyce has said that Covid Vaccination will be mandatory for International flyers and they are looking st domestic flyers too. Think this is the first of many airlines that will announce similar, a subtle way to mandate the vaccine. I’m not against the Covid vaccine however I don’t think it should be enforced if you want to travel.

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IMO, that's not much different from those countries that require vaccination certificates for entry.

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Originally Posted by Keyser Sauzee

Qantas CEO Alan Joyce has said that Covid Vaccination will be mandatory for International flyers and they are looking st domestic flyers too. Think this is the first of many airlines that will announce similar, a subtle way to mandate the vaccine. I’m not against the Covid vaccine however I don’t think it should be enforced if you want to travel.

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It should be completely up to the airline. If they want to maintain the health of their passengers to the highest level and they believe mandating a COVID vaccination to fly is the way to go then good on them as far as I’m concerned.

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Originally Posted by Keyser Sauzee

Qantas CEO Alan Joyce has said that Covid Vaccination will be mandatory for International flyers and they are looking st domestic flyers too. Think this is the first of many airlines that will announce similar, a subtle way to mandate the vaccine. I’m not against the Covid vaccine however I don’t think it should be enforced if you want to travel.

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It should absolutely be enforced imo.

If people don’t want to get the vaccine then don’t. But don’t expect to go into a situation such as getting on a plane where you become a high risk to others because you decided against it.

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Originally Posted by Keyser Sauzee

Qantas CEO Alan Joyce has said that Covid Vaccination will be mandatory for International flyers and they are looking st domestic flyers too. Think this is the first of many airlines that will announce similar, a subtle way to mandate the vaccine. I’m not against the Covid vaccine however I don’t think it should be enforced if you want to travel.

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I've not got a problem with it, and if other airlines took a different approach it would probably be a factor in my decision making when choosing who to fly with even if it cost more.

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Originally Posted by calumhibee1

It should absolutely be enforced imo.

If people don’t want to get the vaccine then don’t. But don’t expect to go into a situation such as getting on a plane where you become a high risk to others because you decided against it.

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:agree: Why should people who refuse to protect themselves and others be permitted to endanger those who for medical reasons cannot take the vaccine. There's a conversation that needs to be had.

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Originally Posted by marinello59

We all know it’s not safe. Sturgeon knows it’s not safe.
It’s down to ourselves, there is no real leadership being shown on this. However most of us know what to do and will be doing it to protect others. In fact I will go as far as to say the vast majority of us will do the right thing, as painful as that will be. If Xmas is about peace on Earth and goodwill to all men then we have a chance to demonstrate that’s who we really are.

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I agree with this. I haven't seen a huge clamour for Christmas get-togethers personally. I think when push comes to shove, a majority of us will be looking to protect the people we love and care for, hard though that may feel. We can be so near to ending this pandemic. Your last sentence says much J.

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Originally Posted by Keyser Sauzee

Qantas CEO Alan Joyce has said that Covid Vaccination will be mandatory for International flyers and they are looking st domestic flyers too. Think this is the first of many airlines that will announce similar, a subtle way to mandate the vaccine. I’m not against the Covid vaccine however I don’t think it should be enforced if you want to travel.

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It won't be the airlines forcing this it will be countries insisting people entering their countries will have to have had the vaccine.

There's lots of countries where vaccinations against various diseases is mandatory and others advisory.

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Originally Posted by Keyser Sauzee

Qantas CEO Alan Joyce has said that Covid Vaccination will be mandatory for International flyers and they are looking st domestic flyers too. Think this is the first of many airlines that will announce similar, a subtle way to mandate the vaccine. I’m not against the Covid vaccine however I don’t think it should be enforced if you want to travel.

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Well, to be fair, they're not stopping you from travelling.
I suppose it just depends on how far you're prepared to walk?

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Originally Posted by marinello59

We all know it’s not safe. Sturgeon knows it’s not safe.
It’s down to ourselves, there is no real leadership being shown on this. However most of us know what to do and will be doing it to protect others. In fact I will go as far as to say the vast majority of us will do the right thing, as painful as that will be. If Xmas is about peace on Earth and goodwill to all men then we have a chance to demonstrate that’s who we really are.

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I hadn't read Sturgeon's comments yesterday until now but she does appear to have scaled back her previously more upbeat approach to relaxing the rules at Christmas, which is good to see. I hope that what sounds like a more tightly restricted approach is reflected when we finally see the four-nations plans:

https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,e...-sturgeon-says

I'm also hopeful that you're right about most of us trying to do the right thing. Rather than worry that this might be the last Christmas for elderly relatives we should maybe consider that by keeping them safe this year it might prove key to ensuring they have more Christmases to come. All being well we should all be looking forward to a brilliant Christmas next year.

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Originally Posted by Keyser Sauzee

Qantas CEO Alan Joyce has said that Covid Vaccination will be mandatory for International flyers and they are looking st domestic flyers too. Think this is the first of many airlines that will announce similar, a subtle way to mandate the vaccine. I’m not against the Covid vaccine however I don’t think it should be enforced if you want to travel.

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Can't agree, if you're locked in a tube with 300 people for a few hours the chance to spread would be too much to not have people vaccinated.

If you're brave enough to fly you're brave enough to get an injection.

I'm finding this Christmas thing hard to deal with. What is the sense in putting tiers in place, bouncing in and out of levels of lock down, not seeing people for months at a time to give it all up for one day of forced merriment to go back in to lockdown at the most miserable time of year?

I understand why we're considering it, but it doesn't take much to see that for every one family group that will do it sensibly there will be one that doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Jones28

Can't agree, if you're locked in a tube with 300 people for a few hours the chance to spread would be too much to not have people vaccinated.

If you're brave enough to fly you're brave enough to get an injection.

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DA question.

Would you extend that requirement to being vaccinated against all airborne viruses and diseases?

Being vaccinated to get on a plane is overkill.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

DA question.

Would you extend that requirement to being vaccinated against all airborne viruses and diseases?

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No, because which airborne diseases and virus's have been as devastating and spread as quickly as C19? In the last, say, 100 years?

If you have the ability to contract and carry Covid 19 you aren't fit to travel to other countries IMO.

Yes, vaccines have a % efficacy and someone might get vaccinated and it not work but people who don't get vaccinated through personal choice shouldn't be on planes.