The Trans Rights Debate

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Originally Posted by archie

Interesting that you are trying to turn this into a left right issue. Surely with a class analysis you would recognise that the majority of women prisoners are poor, vulnerable and working class. And so protecting them is a class issue.

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Being against male rapists being sent to women only prisons is not a right wing anti minority view it's a common sense view. The extremists are muddying the waters by trying to turn it into a left/right issue or by saying things like a male prison officer who works at a female only prison as part of his duties for the SPS is the same as a convicted male rapist being there, no-one buys this.

Joanna Cherry is about to give evidence in court against a Trans Rights Activist who threatened to rape and murder her because of her views on women's rights. It's easy to see who the extremist is and certainly is not Joanna Cherry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pxes8RuCkFY

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Originally Posted by 147lothian

Being against male rapists being sent to women only prisons is not a right wing anti minority view it's a common sense view. The extremists are muddying the waters by trying to turn it into a left/right issue or by saying things like a male prison officer who works at a female only prison as part of his duties for the SPS is the same as a convicted male rapist being there, no-one buys this.

Joanna Cherry is about to give evidence in court against a Trans Rights Activist who threatened to rape and murder her because of her views on women's rights. It's easy to see who the extremist is and certainly is not Joanna Cherry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pxes8RuCkFY

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Joanna Cherry, Ash Regan, JK Rowling etc, all known for their right wing Tory views right enough.

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Originally Posted by James310

SNP MSP calls for the policy of allowing rapists in woman's prisons to end.

https://twitter.com/AshtenRegan/stat...9aCuNUCdQ&s=19

"Rapists should not be placed in the women’s prison estate. Many female prisoners have been victims of male violence and are vulnerable. It is unacceptable - the policy must be urgently changed."

This will confuse people I am guessing seeing as it's only right wing Tories opposed to this.

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NS just said at FMQ’s that they won’t be held in women’s prisons.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...urgeon-4002153

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

NS just said at FMQ’s that they won’t be held in women’s prisons.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...urgeon-4002153

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I am glad she has seen sense at last. She was a bit all over the place though at FMQs. The rapist is still there now and was placed there. They say a risk assessment was required, the first question should have been is this man a convicted rapist? If yes he should be nowhere near a woman's prison.

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Originally Posted by James310

Joanna Cherry, Ash Regan, JK Rowling etc, all known for their right wing Tory views right enough.

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Well said, for me there are a lot of misogynistic men who have jumped on the trans rights bandwagon, as a way of venting their anti-women vitriol, isn't ironic that they think they can shout obscenities like ****, TERF and fascist and also scream rape and death threats at women whenever they organize to protect their sex based rights, while still thinking they are the good guys.

They must know that the feminist woman's rights campaigners are overwhelmingly socialist stalwarts. When speaking about why it is important to protect woman's sex based rights, Karl Marx said that "the liberation of women is the liberation of all". You can't have women's liberation if a man can just Self-ID into a women only space.

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Originally Posted by 147lothian

Well said, for me there are a lot of misogynistic men who have jumped on the trans rights bandwagon, as a way of venting their anti-women vitriol, isn't ironic that they think they can shout obscenities like ****, TERF and fascist and also scream rape and death threats at women whenever they organize to protect their sex based rights, while still thinking they are the good guys.

They must know that the feminist woman's rights campaigners are overwhelmingly socialist stalwarts. When speaking about why it is important to protect woman's sex based rights, Karl Marx said that "the liberation of women is the liberation of all". You can't have women's liberation if a man can just Self-ID into a women only space.

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Well said

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Originally Posted by He's here!

While from a perceived 'right-wing' source, the farcical nature of this case is only heightened by the fact 'her' counsel argued that: ‘There is no way Isla Bryson could be described as a predatory male. If you accept that evidence, that she is transitioning, that she is aiming to continue on that path to becoming female gender, that goes a long way to acquitting her of these charges’.

​https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...s-gender-bill/

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Are you trying to argue that Julia Hartley Brewer diatribes and the real proponents of class war The Spectator are NOT right wing sources? Of course they are. The hysterical comment in the right wing media is fueling intolerance and adding to the febrile debate, that’s the point that’s being made, not that anyone doubts that there are pro and anti trans positions across the political spectrum, that’s not up for debate, it’s clear fact.

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Originally Posted by James310

I am glad she has seen sense at last. She was a bit all over the place though at FMQs. The rapist is still there now and was placed there. They say a risk assessment was required, the first question should have been is this man a convicted rapist? If yes he should be nowhere near a woman's prison.

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I doubt he/she has even seen a female prisoner.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

I doubt he/she has even seen a female prisoner.


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Yes women's prisons are notorious for not having any women prisoners.

What was the point in sending him there in the first place, makes you wonder.

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Originally Posted by James310

Yes women's prisons are notorious for not having any women prisoners.

What was the point in sending him there in the first place, makes you wonder.

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FM made the point today that the prisoner is totally segregated while risk assessment done.
Now that we know that rapists won’t be in women’s prisons, it’s going to kill a fair bit of the chat on this thread though.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

NS just said at FMQ’s that they won’t be held in women’s prisons.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...urgeon-4002153

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Bowed to public pressure thankfully.

I can't agree with her continued insistence that trans women do not present a threat to women though. What is Bryson if not a trans woman? A man?

You either accept that trans women are not women (the correct view) or you insist that they are and therefore acknowledge they are capable of harm to women.

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Originally Posted by hibsbollah

Are you trying to argue that Julia Hartley Brewer diatribes and the real proponents of class war The Spectator are NOT right wing sources? Of course they are. The hysterical comment in the right wing media is fueling intolerance and adding to the febrile debate, that’s the point that’s being made, not that anyone doubts that there are pro and anti trans positions across the political spectrum, that’s not up for debate, it’s clear fact.

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I'm pointing out the preposterousness of Bryson's defence argument. What did you think of it?

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

FM made the point today that the prisoner is totally segregated while risk assessment done.
Now that we know that rapists won’t be in women’s prisons, it’s going to kill a fair bit of the chat on this thread though.

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I don't recall much chat about this before this case. I do recall people supporting and opposing allowing convicted rapists like this man to apply for a GRC, you support it and I oppose it.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

FM made the point today that the prisoner is totally segregated while risk assessment done.
Now that we know that rapists won’t be in women’s prisons, it’s going to kill a fair bit of the chat on this thread though.

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Helen Joyce, argued that if you accept the transwomen are women mantra, it won't be long before you get male rapists in women's prisons long before the Iyla Bryson case came to light.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsuZreA8JOE

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Originally Posted by 147lothian

Helen Joyce, argued that if you accept the transwomen are women mantra, it won't be long before you get male rapists in women's prisons long before the Iyla Bryson case came to light.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsuZreA8JOE

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The FM said today that it won’t happen. Clear as day.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

The FM said today that it won’t happen. Clear as day.


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It did happen didn't it?

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Originally Posted by hibsbollah

Are you trying to argue that Julia Hartley Brewer diatribes and the real proponents of class war The Spectator are NOT right wing sources? Of course they are. The hysterical comment in the right wing media is fueling intolerance and adding to the febrile debate, that’s the point that’s being made, not that anyone doubts that there are pro and anti trans positions across the political spectrum, that’s not up for debate, it’s clear fact.

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Yet I keep reading here that it is right wingers who oppose the legislation. That fit's neatly in to the narrative that any opposition to the legislation is akin to fascism. The 'furries against fascism' planned protest againt a feminist meeting is Glasgow being a recent example.

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Originally Posted by James310

It did happen didn't it?

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What did?


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

What did?


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Got sent to a female prison. Then world wide uproar and embarrassment made them u-turn. What about Katie Dolatowski, sexual assault plus a separate violent crime. Does that not qualify or do we have to wait until cnn reports that for her to be sent back to male prison

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Got sent to a female prison. Then world wide uproar and embarrassment made them u-turn. What about Katie Dolatowski, sexual assault plus a separate violent crime. Does that not qualify or do we have to wait until cnn reports that for her to be sent back to male prison

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Got sent to a female prison. Then world wide uproar and embarrassment made them u-turn. What about Katie Dolatowski, sexual assault plus a separate violent crime. Does that not qualify or do we have to wait until cnn reports that for her to be sent back to male prison

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The prisoner has been in isolation. Could be on the moon for all the difference it makes. Hasn’t met a single other prisoner.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

What did?


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A rapist getting sent to a woman's prison. You said "The FM said today that it won’t happen. Clear as day"

It did happen. Hopefully it won't happen again.

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Originally Posted by James310

A man getting sent to a woman's prison. You said "The FM said today that it won’t happen. Clear as day"

It did happen. Hopefully it won't happen again.

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The prisoner hasn’t been placed yet. The prisoner is being held in isolation.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

The prisoner hasn’t been placed yet. The prisoner is being held in isolation.


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He was placed in Cornton Vale, a woman's prison, hence why it's a story. He will be moved to a man's prison. Spin it as much as you like but a rapist was placed in a woman's prison, there was quite rightly outrage and now that decision is being reversed.

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Originally Posted by James310

He was placed in Cornton Vale, a woman's prison. He will be moved to a man's prison. Spin it as much as you like but a rapist was placed in a woman's prison, there was quite rightly outrage and now that decision is being reversed.

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Prisoner hasn’t been placed anywhere yet. Has been held in isolation. No spin. Just facts.
You keep up the scaremongering though.[emoji106]


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Prisoner hasn’t been placed anywhere yet. Has been held in isolation. No spin. Just facts.
You keep up the scaremongering though.[emoji106]


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Where was he placed in isolation?

Cornton Vale, a woman's prison. Is that incorrect?

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Originally Posted by James310

Where was he placed in isolation?

Cornton Vale, a woman's prison. Is that incorrect?

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Was the prisoner placed with female prisoners? No. That is a fact.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Was the prisoner placed with female prisoners? No. That is a fact.


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Well if they would be in isolation the whole time in Cornton Vale and never be in contact with female prisoners why was he moved? Your not really making much sense here with your robust defence of what happened.

The facts are he was placed in a woman's prison. Spin it how you like, most reasonable people will see it for what it is/was.

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Originally Posted by James310

He was placed in Cornton Vale, a woman's prison, hence why it's a story. He will be moved to a man's prison. Spin it as much as you like but a rapist was placed in a woman's prison, there was quite rightly outrage and now that decision is being reversed.

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To be fair... the placement was done by the courts, the Prison Service have him/her in isolation while they do their risk assessment and he's almost certainly going to be moved to a male prison as a result of that assessment.
The FM is on record as making her views known to the SPS but not "officially".
I imagine if the SPS decide to keep him in a female prison the the Scottish Government might step in and make it official.

I think one of the reasons that they were placed on remand awaiting sentence in cornton Vale is because the prison service in Scotland is facing a totally new situation.

Once sentence is passed it will become clearer.


FWIW I think because the crimes took place when male then serving a sentence in a male prison is appropriate.

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Originally Posted by James310

The facts are he was placed in a woman's prison. Spin it how you like, most reasonable people will see it for what it is/was.

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What was it?