Share Transfers Agreed/Cooling off period

I can't believe that odious pish stained breeks ****in walloper had the brass neck to go on national TV with that guff

I noticed he dismissed almost immediately when White ( another Erse ) asked him about bringing in mad Vlad to ramble on about cups and rivals not being able to do that

The arrogance is absolutely astounding and a slap in his kisser is the least he deserves

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Originally Posted by Fat Penlon

I realise they cannot just pay random creditors it was more of a swipe at their long term lack of morals.

I take your point about Motherwell but with no end game in sight because of the shares being tied up the admins might need to make the money they have along with the spfl money last them all season. If that is the case they will still need to generate cash at every opportunity no?

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They might have to change their strategy, as circumstances change, like any business. However, they have a duty to try and obtain a CVA, and their current thoughts are driven by that. If it looks like that will be delayed, or indeed impossible, then of course things should change.

As a side note, as with Rangers, football is different to other businesses. For many non-football businesses, the value to a prospective buyer often lies in things like its product, or its "name". In Hearts and Rangers case, the value lies in its ability to be successful on the park... ie its players. To obtain the best possible outcome in a CVA, therefore, there has to be some attention paid to the strength of the playing squad.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

They might have to change their strategy, as circumstances change, like any business. However, they have a duty to try and obtain a CVA, and their current thoughts are driven by that. If it looks like that will be delayed, or indeed impossible, then of course things should change.

As a side note, as with Rangers, football is different to other businesses. For many non-football businesses, the value to a prospective buyer often lies in things like its product, or its "name". In Hearts and Rangers case, the value lies in its ability to be successful on the park... ie its players. To obtain the best possible outcome in a CVA, therefore, there has to be some attention paid to the strength of the playing squad.

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I hate it when people talk sense! :-)

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Originally Posted by Fat Penlon

I hate it when people talk sense! :-)

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Me too.... that's why I love Hibs.net so much. :greengrin

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Originally Posted by hibs4thecup1988

I'm going to be honest I was one that thought they would be getting away with it all.

Surely of no bids become apparent next week, and they don't get a huge influx of cash then BDO will say game over and cut their losses, sell the stadium take their fee and say good riddance. Or am I making too much out of the date?

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There may be a point there.

The last thing the SPFL want is a team going bust mid-season.

The 12 July is proabably as late as you can go before changing the content of the Leagues. That would mean Morton being promoted and adjustments down the way including signing up a new team for SPFL2. A Newco is unlikely to be in place by then to take up that slot. So unlessthere is a firm bid on the table with real money by then, I think that the plug wil be pulled.

The talk of staggering on until January in the hope that a sale can be arranged by then is all rather speculative. TheSPFL will probably have to pay to keep Hearts on life support until the end of the season as they did with Gretna a few years back.

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Originally Posted by jgl07

There may be a point there.

The last thing the SPFL want is a team going bust mid-season.

The 12 July is proabably as late as you can go before changing the content of the Leagues. That would mean Morton being promoted and adjustments down the way including signing up a new team for SPFL2. A Newco is unlikely to be in place by then to take up that slot. So unlessthere is a firm bid on the table with real money by then, I think that the plug wil be pulled.

The talk of staggering on until January in the hope that a sale can be arranged by then is all rather speculative. TheSPFL will probably have to pay to keep Hearts on life support until the end of the season as they did with Gretna a few years back.

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.... which may be the reason for the (alleged) advert for the sale of the assets, which hasn't (I think) been mentioned in MSM yet.

Edit...having googled it, I am even more sceptical about that advert. The press release has been picked up by non-UK outlets, like the Wall Street Journal and the Telegraph of India. It describes them as "Hearts of Midlothian".

Edit edit.... I think BusinessesForSale have pulled the ad.

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Originally Posted by jgl07

There may be a point there.

The last thing the SPFL want is a team going bust mid-season.

The 12 July is proabably as late as you can go before changing the content of the Leagues. That would mean Morton being promoted and adjustments down the way including signing up a new team for SPFL2. A Newco is unlikely to be in place by then to take up that slot. So unlessthere is a firm bid on the table with real money by then, I think that the plug wil be pulled.

The talk of staggering on until January in the hope that a sale can be arranged by then is all rather speculative. TheSPFL will probably have to pay to keep Hearts on life support until the end of the season as they did with Gretna a few years back.

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That's what I mean. You just put it better.

Surely the spfl won't want to risk them folding in january. I think BDO want the spfl to make the decision for them personally. But if they muster through to beginning of august and then fold surely there will be no hearts playing football next season at all?

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

They might have to change their strategy, as circumstances change, like any business. However, they have a duty to try and obtain a CVA, and their current thoughts are driven by that. If it looks like that will be delayed, or indeed impossible, then of course things should change.

As a side note, as with Rangers, football is different to other businesses. For many non-football businesses, the value to a prospective buyer often lies in things like its product, or its "name". In Hearts and Rangers case, the value lies in its ability to be successful on the park... ie its players. To obtain the best possible outcome in a CVA, therefore, there has to be some attention paid to the strength of the playing squad.

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CWG is it not the case that BDO have a duty to obtain the best possible deal for shareholders/creditors & we're making the assumption that a CVA is the best way to accomplish this scenario? However if someone turned up & said I'll give you £xx million for Yams assets including PBS but I have no interest in owning a football club then that would be best case scenario for shareholders & BDO would be duty bound to accept? Yams no more, shame!

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Originally Posted by brog

CWG is it not the case that BDO have a duty to obtain the best possible deal for shareholders/creditors & we're making the assumption that a CVA is the best way to accomplish this scenario? However if someone turned up & said I'll give you £xx million for Yams assets including PBS but I have no interest in owning a football club then that would be best case scenario for shareholders & BDO would be duty bound to accept? Yams no more, shame!

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I love this medium for setting challenging questions.... so much healthier than MSM.:wink:

In all of this, I often have to remind myself of what the law says. I've just had to do that again:-

The three Administration statutory purposes (or required outcomes) are:


- Rescuing the company as a going concern. (Note: this purpose is to rescue the company as opposed to rescuing the business undertaken by the company.)

- Or, achieving a better result for the company's creditors as a whole than would be likely if the company were wound up (without first being in administration).

- Or, realising property to make a distribution to one or or more secured or preferential creditors.

In practice, it's normally the case that a going concern will achieve the best result for creditors. That's why an administrator will go for a CVA first, and is why BDO have to exhaust that possibility.

In your scenario, that might not be a better result than a "winding-up". A winding-up might achieve a bit more through the sale of the name, although liquidators' fees would more than gobble that up.

Good question, though.... I may ponder it more :greengrin

Side note.... shareholders don't come into the equation in administration. They do in a liquidation.

If the value of the assets is say just £8m, I can't see the Liths wanting admin to run all the way until the end of the year. The longer it takes, the more that BDO will take from the final pot.

So quick CVA or quick sale of business and assets at the right price or ............liquidation.

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Originally Posted by brog

CWG is it not the case that BDO have a duty to obtain the best possible deal for shareholders/creditors & we're making the assumption that a CVA is the best way to accomplish this scenario? However if someone turned up & said I'll give you £xx million for Yams assets including PBS but I have no interest in owning a football club then that would be best case scenario for shareholders & BDO would be duty bound to accept? Yams no more, shame!

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The assumption is that Hearts as a going concern will be worth more than the sum of the assets as a football club.

However they may be worth more if the ground was split from the football entity - players contracts, SFA licence, etc - and sold separately.

I would imagine that Tynecastle is worth more as a development site than it is as a flawed 'not fit for purpose' sports stadium. That would apply regardless of whether it was a CVA or liquidation.

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Originally Posted by Seveno

If the value of the assets is say just £8m, I can't see the Liths wanting admin to run all the way until the end of the year. The longer it takes, the more that BDO will take from the final pot.

So quick CVA or quick sale of business and assets at the right price or ............liquidation.

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Aren't they the same?

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Originally Posted by HUTCHYHIBBY

Its a worrying and increasingly popular tendency on here these days!

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:faf:

:aok:

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Originally Posted by kdhibees1

Not quite but best I can do....
The 'Trumpets Trumpeteer'
http://img5.imageshack.us/edit_previ...&action=rotate

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Originally Posted by Fat Penlon

Refused bids for 2 players because they have enough money now aye? Why not try accepting the bids and paying the council or the police the money you are due them!!!! TRAMPS

BDO looking out for the creditors? Most teams that go into admin have to release all their players never mind actually getting offered money for them and the admins turn it down! and then signed a player to add to the wage bill.

I remember people arguing about the system being wrong during the sevco debacle. I think this case has confirmed that the system needs addressed.

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BDO Are at it brown paper bags same as the Duffers i am Seething as i fel a scam is going on.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Aren't they the same?

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Not necessarily. BDO seem to be trying to sell the business and assets in a oner which would leave us with a newco. Liquidation could lead to a total break-up to achieve the best price.

Am I missing something ?

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Originally Posted by Seveno

Not necessarily. BDO seem to be trying to sell the business and assets in a oner which would leave us with a newco. Liquidation could lead to a total break-up to achieve the best price.

Am I missing something ?

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Yeah, I think so. I'm not being critical, but trying to understand what you mean.

A Newco is what happened to Rangers. They didn't get a CVA, which is what BDO are trying to achieve. If they don't, the assets can be sold to a NewCo, and the old company is liquidated.

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Originally Posted by sidneyhibbie

i am Seething

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Ach, your just saying that.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

I love this medium for setting challenging questions.... so much healthier than MSM.:wink:

In all of this, I often have to remind myself of what the law says. I've just had to do that again:-

The three Administration statutory purposes (or required outcomes) are:


- Rescuing the company as a going concern. (Note: this purpose is to rescue the company as opposed to rescuing the business undertaken by the company.)

- Or, achieving a better result for the company's creditors as a whole than would be likely if the company were wound up (without first being in administration).

- Or, realising property to make a distribution to one or or more secured or preferential creditors.

In practice, it's normally the case that a going concern will achieve the best result for creditors. That's why an administrator will go for a CVA first, and is why BDO have to exhaust that possibility.

In your scenario, that might not be a better result than a "winding-up". A winding-up might achieve a bit more through the sale of the name, although liquidators' fees would more than gobble that up.

Good question, though.... I may ponder it more :greengrin

Side note.... shareholders don't come into the equation in administration. They do in a liquidation.

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Does it matter much? My impression was that they would steady the ship, drum up the best CVA offer as quickly as they can and then offer it to the creditors. At that point the creditors can accept it or liquidate, so BDO don't really need to make a decision on CVA v liquidation.

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Originally Posted by sidneyhibbie

BDO Are at it brown paper bags same as the Duffers i am Seething as i fel a scam is going on.

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If you can prove it, do so.

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Originally Posted by Mellow Hibee

Does it matter much? My impression was that they would steady the ship, drum up the best CVA offer as quickly as they can and then offer it to the creditors. At that point the creditors can accept it or liquidate, so BDO don't really need to make a decision on CVA v liquidation.

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Is the problem not that, as they are unable to offer the frozen majority shareholding for sale - and consequently unable to put a CVA together, then they may have no choice but to go down the newco/liquidation route?

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Originally Posted by Mellow Hibee

Does it matter much? My impression was that they would steady the ship, drum up the best CVA offer as quickly as they can and then offer it to the creditors. At that point the creditors can accept it or liquidate, so BDO don't really need to make a decision on CVA v liquidation.

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Surely it all depends on cash flow though. They may be too far gone regards a CVA. 3p in the pound is never going to be accepted. And let us be honest after this month all they really have coming in is walk ups. So therefore BDO surely can just say "liquidate" if no offers.

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Originally Posted by Prof. ****gy

Is the problem not that, as they are unable to offer the frozen majority shareholding for sale - and consequently unable to put a CVA together, then they may have no choice but to go down the newco/liquidation route?

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Yes, and I think that that would be a hilarious way for this to finish, but I just mean that BDO themselves will not be considering liquidation at this point, though if the bids are rubbish they might be expecting it.

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Originally Posted by hibs4thecup1988

Surely it all depends on cash flow though. They may be too far gone regards a CVA. 3p in the pound is never going to be accepted. And let us be honest after this month all they really have coming in is walk ups. So therefore BDO surely can just say "liquidate" if no offers.

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I thought they had had offers though? Do we know what was offered?

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Originally Posted by Mellow Hibee

Does it matter much? My impression was that they would steady the ship, drum up the best CVA offer as quickly as they can and then offer it to the creditors. At that point the creditors can accept it or liquidate, so BDO don't really need to make a decision on CVA v liquidation.

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As I've said before, it's not the CVA that is the main issue. Leaving aside the matter of the frozen shares, the most important part is satisfying the secured creditor(s).

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Yeah, I think so. I'm not being critical, but trying to understand what you mean.

A Newco is what happened to Rangers. They didn't get a CVA, which is what BDO are trying to achieve. If they don't, the assets can be sold to a NewCo, and the old company is liquidated.

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Yes, both cases would end with liquidation but I am talking about the difference between BDO sell the team and ground tomorrow to McKie and partners as against them saying next week that they don't have enough money to pay the bills and going straight into liquidation. McKie and partners would then have to make an offer before things were broken up.

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Originally Posted by Mellow Hibee

I thought they had had offers though? Do we know what was offered?

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No chance. If they really had proper offers they would be jumping about. They may have offers but nothing that they would dream of accepting. If anybody buys them they would be off their rockers

Has anyone asked the SPFL if they require guarantees before the start of the season, what I'll happen if a club goes into liquidation mid-season?

Surely if there was a time to make some new rules up, its now when we can all see the train wreck approaching.

Doncaster won't last long if the fans have to put up with another summer/season of the spfl in the spotlight for all the wrong reasons

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

As I've said before, it's not the CVA that is the main issue. Leaving aside the matter of the frozen shares, the most important part is satisfying the secured creditor(s).

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Ah, yes sorry. I keep forgetting that they're separate.

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Originally Posted by jonty

Has anyone asked the SPFL if they require guarantees before the start of the season, what I'll happen if a club goes into liquidation mid-season?

Surely if there was a time to make some new rules up, its now when we can all see the train wreck approaching.

Doncaster won't last long if the fans have to put up with another summer/season of the spfl in the spotlight for all the wrong reasons

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​That could be one benefit of the whole thing then.