Unionists will be having seizures!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
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Unionists will be having seizures!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Why? It's good news isn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
For scottish junior doctors, yes for junior doctors in England, not so much.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
Seems a good deal. Its good to see unions still have teethQuote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Let's hope they find the deal offered acceptable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
Actually seeing that it's 17.5% over two years they might not. A pay cut last year and a pay cut this, they really need a rise above inflation after 12 years of cuts. Better than the worst government in decades down south though I supposeQuote:
Originally Posted by archie
Unfortunately it’s that govt down south who determine the budget. Let hope it’s accepted though because we need the NHS working over the next few years while we catch up on pandemic backlogs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
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They don't decide the budget. The same thing was said when snp was offering half of this where is the money coming from. A Scottish government gets a budget to spend. You priorities from important to less and some stuff drop off unfortunately. Paying nhs staff should be near the top.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Yes it would be better with independence, but it's not a get out of jail card either
I agree. Glad they’ve made it happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
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With the extra tax that’s paid in Scotland, how much more does the Scottish doctors pay have to be to be the same as an English doctor’s nett earnings ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
That's obviously a negative number as ALL nhs staff in Scotland earn substantially more than their equivalent in England. But good try 😂Quote:
Originally Posted by greenginger
You mean more acceptable than the 5% on offer in England.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
Yes both are relative wage cuts, it's how much a cut they will find acceptable, they wanted a riseQuote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
Sorry, what's England got to do with it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenginger
This I guessQuote:
Originally Posted by archie
Everything is relative. 17.5% v 5%Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
But why are you comparing to England?Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
Haven’t you read the drugs thread? Comparisons with England are a constant in Scottish politics.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
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This thread too... unless you're being selective :dunno:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Edit: "you're " as in generally... not YOU specifically :greengrin
It's 17.5 over 2 years, so 8.75. A cut both years, after they have dropped 26% in real terms in 12 years. Still a world away from Englands derisory offers defoQuote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
I think we all agree on that ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
That doesn't make it a good thing. It's not relevant to me if the NHS waiting time is two weeks longer in Manchester.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Glad you agree with the majority of us on here regardless of if they want independence or not :agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
And yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
https://twitter.com/stvnews/status/1...dxJXScFNwz8V4A
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Brutal, brutal, brutal. I can't believe the neck of the Tories trying to make an issue of it all. They don't give a monkey's about the issues that encourage problem drug use.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
I don't see the relationship to what I posted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
FTFY :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
[emoji23]Quote:
Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye
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https://y.yarn.co/d1bbaece-913c-4984...8395f_text.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
:greengrin
In fairness we shouldn't compare with England as it is to all intents and independent nation. We can't really compare with anywhere. And as the devolved government is just the UK government in Scottish form, does it really matter?
Not really. I love England. It’s a great place but more importantly, having spent 10 years in Oz, most of my mates are English(sounds weird). They’re a great lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye
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How is it not relevant. Two systems that have the same origins, were the same system for decades and one is almost fully dependent on how much the other gets funded. Of course comparisons will be made.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
It's not relevant to me if I'm waiting for care.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
Well here’s hoping your in Scotland.[emoji106]Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
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Not sure what thread but it's Glasgow Council.
3000 old cars fined in Glasgows LEZ in first month
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...BCScotlandNews
Good. Money that might be put to good causes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
This is where tribalism corrodes normal politics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
The pay offer in Scotland is significantly more than is being offered to junior doctors in England. That's why the strike has been called off north of the border but is going ahead in England.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
I know that. But why are you obsessing on England.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
How is overall performance not relevant if you're waiting for care? Especially if where you're waiting is mostly dependant on somewhere else.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
I could have swore you are normally willing to comment on things that don’t necessarily affect you personally, Archie.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
Because Scotland's financing of the NHS is dependent on England's.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
Because politicos use it to deflect from issues affecting people in Scotland. If a waiting list is longer in England that makes no difference to my waiting time here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
To a point - block grant expenditure decisions are made here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
I'm not sure I understand your point?Quote:
Originally Posted by WeeRussell
The Scottish Government is the devolution of the UK state. If it's failing, the UK is failing.
Yes, I bet if waiting times were shorter in England we would never hear about it.[emoji23]Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
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Yes, we get to decide within limits what we do with our pocket money. But there's more to running the NHS than money and we don't have the levers to control those things.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
Scot gov budget covers the majority of the finance we use in Scotland. Also income tax alone covers about 35% of GDP. We also get about 20% per head of population to spend than England. To downplay it and say its pennies is a good tactic as it takes away responsibility but its silly imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
Yes we should have all the budget but we don't just now simple as. We get a large part of the budget to sort ourselves. If a party says we're unable to work this budget then they should move over and let someone else do it. Yes it's unfair ect ect but it is what it is in the meantime
Money is only half the story. Scotland has an NHS staff shortage of over 7000, with those retiring leaving not being replaced. The Tories and Labour are both determined to continue down Brexit Avenue and the Scottish Government are forced to follow. They have no say in immigration, employment law, visas or citizenship, how on earth can they be expected to fill those vacancies without being able to widen the recruitment pool? NHS staff do an amazing job under the circumstances, but they can't continue to do the jobs of those missing from the system indefinitely, something has to give and sadly that's the staff themselves which only compounds the problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Again this focuses on the areas that the Scottish Government doesn't control as the solution. But it was the Scottish Government which cut nursing training places https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-blamed-as-unfilled-nursing-jobs-break-records-343490Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
And yet we can't fill the training vacancies on offer. What's the point in creating more training vacancies if we don't have the people willing to take them?Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
Talking of deflection. An article from 5 and a half years ago 😂😂😂Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
Here is more recent info for you
https://www.gov.scot/news/nhs-workforce-at-new-record-high/
We have record immigration year on year. Unfortunately most are staying in England, probably due to family ties. We need a way of getting them to come up hereQuote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
Clearly not enough of the immigrants are qualified health care staff though, thats the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
By cutting off 300 million of your nearest neighbours we've made it far harder to fill these vacancies. That was a choice of Westminster, supported now by both Labour and Tory, and forced upon Scotland.
Aye, if only Scotland could set its own immigration rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
So you think it's funny that training places were slashed and now we have staff shortages? By definition cutting training places has impacts years later. It's an example of where the Scottish Government has powers and took decisions that have made things worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
Or don't cut the training places for medical staff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Since90+2
15% of nhs staff are foreign and that number is getting larger in the last 10 years, the growth has been from India, Philippines and Nigeria mostly. We don't pay enough to entice EU nationals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Since90+2
The immigrants aren't expected to come trained we are the ones that train them. Scottish and UK government cut funding for training and we're getting the fruits now. The numbers increased steadily when Labour was in power then it was slashed under the tories. We have the immigrants obviously 100ks from Ukraine alone, what we need is the funding to train
Creating training places for medical staff only makes sense if you have enough people willing to do the training.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
So are you saying that places were cut because of lack of interest?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
Imagine if the Scot Gov didn't adjust training capacities to suit the expected volume of trainees.
I can see the Daily Mail headline!
SNP waste money on empty classrooms!
Net immigration of 600k to the uk last year so the rules are pro immigration, the question is how to get them to choose ScotlandQuote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
Except the RCN kicked off about it at the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Alf
With immigration growing each year I'm sure a good job like that would be snapped up. Immigration is only going to go one way fortunately due to the upcoming agreement with India. Nursing jobs would go in seconds if advertised thereQuote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
There are various reasons as to why immigrants prefer to settle in England as opposed to Scotland, the only way to change that would be for Scotland to be able to create its own immigration policy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
It costs about £12,000 per employee to recruit internationally, whereas before someone from Germany, Poland or Spain could have simply applied for the job if interested.
The reasons are wide yes mostly due to family. But the immigrants are in uk and in massive numbers so we don't have to recruit internationally just from down south.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
The question is how can England with the same immigration laws managed manage to have massive net immigration each year but we can't. Uk just overtook Frances population due to immigration and is expected to take over Germany in 20 years. Net immigration isn't the problem, funding the study is
Again, this is not a no consequence option. The WHO rials against the first world strip mining the rest of the world for staff. I appreciate there is a balance between individual rights and societal benefits, but I'm sure you would acknowledge the issue? https://www.who.int/news/item/14-03-...er-recruitmentQuote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
Like you say, family is probably the main reason most UK immigrants stay in England, however climate, stereotypical prejudice, language (don't laugh) and infrastructure all play a role. Scotland needs an immigration programme trimmed to its needs, UK wide policy isn't working for Scotland. Scotland is much more attractive to European people than it is to those from further afield, that's why Brexit has had a disproportionate effect on our public and private services.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
One of the dumbest comments ever made on this topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
Would you care to explain this?Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
As I've not had the benefit of any illumination about my 'dumbness' I'll have a go at responding. I think 'grunt' is conflating macro and micro indicators and responses. At a macro level, it makes perfect sense to benchmark performance against peers and comparable organisations. This will be in the public sector and business. Politicians use this all the time when the indicators are favourable.Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
At a micro level, by which I mean here individual level, I struggle to see how someone waiting an extended time for treatment is somehow comforted or aided by knowing that someone elsewhere is waiting longer. But as 'grunt' opines, this is a dumb view.
OK, off now to listen to some music https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_Yj...nel=amajor2002
"At a macro level, it makes perfect sense to benchmark performance against peers and comparable organisations"Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
Which is what was being discussed/compared ?
I think it's unfair to call anyone dumb :agree:
But (lol) ... I do think it's either a deflection or just being contrary to move the discussion onto the micro level to avoid having to acknowledge that in some measures one government is currently performing better than the other.
At an individual level I'll guarantee there will be unacceptable situations/waits in all 4 nations at one point or another.
Enjoy yer sounds :-)
I didn't call anyone dumb.Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Alf
I was making a point about the use of generalised numbers to address individual issues, as was happening on the thread. At least I think that's what I was doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Alf
Ah , fair doo'sQuote:
Originally Posted by archie
I'm off to watch a film
https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0109686/?ref_=ext_shr_lnk
Which is which?Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Alf
Ha ha... we are one :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by archie
TuneQuote:
Originally Posted by archie
Could it be that immigrants coming to the UK want to remain in the UK and not become residents of an independent Scottish state.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
I don’t suppose that would be a question in any Scottish Government funded survey.
Sure is!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kato
I think that's probably the last thing on their minds.Quote:
Originally Posted by greenginger
Indeed. Many were from Hong Kong and Ukraine fleeing oppression, but what if in the future Scotland goes independent and is still safe and wealthy..Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
Aye, I imagine that's what's holding them back.Quote:
Originally Posted by greenginger
😂Quote:
Originally Posted by greenginger
….Quote:
Originally Posted by greenginger
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/p...ousaf-30424270
Only 23 per cent of Scottish voters think Yousaf is doing a good job, according to latest polling.
What were the numbers for Sarwar and Ross?Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
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Polling looks to be focused on Yousaf/Sunak. For Yousaf to be only a point ahead of a Tory PM in favourability among Scottish voters must be rather embarrassing for him. Tho to cut him slack, as the article points out, he was bequeathed an almighty mess by his predecessor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
https://twitter.com/beith123/status/...dxJXScFNwz8V4A
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Nothing to see here.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
https://youtu.be/lPsrBQis5vU
Flynn getting better and better all the time.
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https://news.stv.tv/scotland/scottis...-of-households
Seems like a sensible move?
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Almost £400 more a year for me. ****Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Would it be accurate, then, to say that it has struck terror in your heart? :dunno:Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
Another kick in the teeth for young families on middle incomes. Like me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Er, no.Quote:
Originally Posted by lapsedhibee
https://twitter.com/lauraalderman_/s...dxJXScFNwz8V4A
More good news. Yousaf appears to be quietly setting about solving problems.
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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...34c601bf48.pngQuote:
Originally Posted by Jones28
It’s not nice having to pay more but the SNP have done more than any other party to reduce council tax.
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Whoosh 😉Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt