The Trans Rights Debate

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

I should add, the Republic of Ireland already has this legislation in place with no problems!!!

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No problems, what are you basing that on exactly? Anything in particular you have seen or read?

This story sounds like a problem, yes its only one but its a bit of a sweeping statement to say there has been no problems.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/...-39563823.html


Self ID was introduced in Ireland alongside side other legislation and the Irish people in a recent poll were found to be against the changes introduced.

https://thecountess.ie/first-irish-p...gender-debate/


SELF-IDENTIFICATION

The results also revealed that while half of adults believe that people should have the right to change their sex on their birth certificate, most of them feel this should only be permitted once some action has been taken towards gender reassignment via hormones or surgery.

Fewer than one in five (17%) respondents agreed with the law as it currently stands that a person should be allowed to change their birth certificate as soon as they self-identify as the opposite sex.

34% thought it should be permitted once a person has partially or fully transitioned through hormone treatment and/or genital surgery.

28% of people said individuals should not be allowed to change sex on their birth certificate at all.

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Originally Posted by James310

No problems, what are you basing that on exactly? Anything in particular you have seen or read?

This story sounds like a problem, yes its only one but its a bit of a sweeping statement to say there has been no problems.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/...-39563823.html


Self ID was introduced in Ireland alongside side other legislation and the Irish people in a recent poll were found to be against the changes introduced.

https://thecountess.ie/first-irish-p...gender-debate/


SELF-IDENTIFICATION

The results also revealed that while half of adults believe that people should have the right to change their sex on their birth certificate, most of them feel this should only be permitted once some action has been taken towards gender reassignment via hormones or surgery.

Fewer than one in five (17%) respondents agreed with the law as it currently stands that a person should be allowed to change their birth certificate as soon as they self-identify as the opposite sex.

34% thought it should be permitted once a person has partially or fully transitioned through hormone treatment and/or genital surgery.

28% of people said individuals should not be allowed to change sex on their birth certificate at all.

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See my link to stv earlier today.

On the self Id. I know a trans man in Scotland currently undergoing the full, traumatic hormone and surgical procedure and don't doubt he will be pleased to read this 🙄

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

See my link to stv earlier today.

On the self Id. I know a trans man in Scotland currently undergoing the full, traumatic hormone and surgical procedure and don't doubt he will be pleased to read this 🙄

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I read that and saw the report on the news at the time, where does it say there is no problems at all with it? I see the reporter spoke to a number of people and found no issues, that's not the same as no problems at all which I think is quite a sweeping statement, that's all.

What exactly do you mean "reading this" what's that, the opinion poll of Irish people or the factual news story? Sorry, unsure what you meant.

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Originally Posted by James310

I read that and saw the report on the news at the time, where does it say there is no problems at all with it? I see the reporter spoke to a number of people and found no issues, that's not the same as no problems at all which I think is quite a sweeping statement, that's all.

What exactly do you mean "reading this" what's that, the opinion poll of Irish people or the factual news story? Sorry, unsure what you meant.

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The percentage people with differing opinion.

He moved from the south of England to the east coast of Scotland because he knew that it was going to be an easier transition here compared to at home in Sussex. He posts on YouTube about things we are both interested in, he changed his pronoun before Christmas and has been very open about the whole thing.

I think this thread has gone away from the whole issue of trans rights to support the view that women will be impacted more than trans people because of the reform and I want to bring some balance back.

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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainm...cid=entnewsntp

This is where we are heading.

"Kate Grimes, who has a history of transforming troubled hospitals, was told not to waste her time applying for the Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust as her belief in biological sex was “not a viewpoint” they want.
The Tavistock has now been accused of breaking equality law by discriminating against those with gender-critical beliefs, just months after the appeal court ruled it was protected under the Equality Act".

In a letter to the Health Secretary, Ms Grimes said that the trust was “exacerbating its governance failures – and breaking the law – by refusing to interview anyone who believes biological sex cannot be changed”.

Excluding those with gender-critical beliefs created “a very significant danger of skewed thinking” and if it was applied across the trust then it would be “indoctrination at an organisational level”, she said. Ms Grimes told the Telegraph that patient safety was at risk if “clinicians are working from a belief system rather than evidence-based care”.

She said that it was “perfectly possible to support and care for children with gender dysphoria without believing it is literally possible to change biological sex”.

“I believe that there are only two sexes and that sex is immutable. While I fully respect trans people’s right to live their lives free from discrimination, I do not believe that they can literally change sex”, she wrote.

In the reply, seen by this newspaper and sent to Mr Javid, she was told not to waste time applying as “your views on sex being immutable is not a viewpoint that the trust would wish any of their non-executives to hold”.

The senior consultant added that it would be “one of the questions I will be asking candidates at first stage interview”.

Peter Daly, an employment lawyer at Doyle Clayton who acted in the recent appeal in which it was clarified that gender-critical beliefs are a protected, said: “The belief that sex is immutable is a central aspect of those beliefs.

“An employer which refuses to employ somebody because they hold gender critical beliefs is acting unlawfully in precisely the same way as it would be unlawful to refuse to employ someone because of their age, race, sex, disability or gender reassignment status.”

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There's a strong whiff of a kind of gender cultism there.

I mean you can't change SEX. You may be able to change gender, if you believe that exists as separate from sex, but the idea of literally changing sex is delusion. We are what we are, and the need to deny, control or change that is indicitive of a broader problem I think.

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Originally Posted by 500miles

There's a strong whiff of a kind of gender cultism there.

I mean you can't change SEX. You may be able to change gender, if you believe that exists as separate from sex, but the idea of literally changing sex is delusion. We are what we are, and the need to deny, control or change that is indicitive of a broader problem I think.

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If people have gender reassignment surgery and an on-going chemical cocktail, is that not literally changing sex?

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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

If people have gender reassignment surgery and an on-going chemical cocktail, is that not literally changing sex?

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No, sex simply a descriptor of if someone's body is developed to produce large or small gametes. The bodies may develop incorrectly - like klinefelters, or chemo could destroy your bodies capacity to produce healthy sperms- but the vast vast majority of processes and organs are still there and functional.

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Originally Posted by 500miles

No, sex simply a descriptor of if someone's body is developed to produce large or small gametes. The bodies may develop incorrectly - like klinefelters, or chemo could destroy your bodies capacity to produce healthy sperms- but the vast vast majority of processes and organs are still there and functional.

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I’m not a fan of biological determinism :wink:, but fair enough, nature does as nature does.

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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

I’m not a fan of biological determinism :wink:, but fair enough, nature does as nature does.

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Nor am I - but I'm not suggesting behaviour is solely tied to biology. That's where there is space for an understanding of "gender" separate from sex.


However height, blood type, eye color and sex absolutely is tied to pre determined biology.

This is an interesting thread.

https://twitter.com/MhairiHunter/sta...NkCJK0c-yvShtQ

It takes the view that the "safe spaces for women" argument is not relevant in the debate around the GRA. That it's already covered by the Equality Act, which will not change.

Here's a graphic from that thread.:-

Attachment 25645

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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

If people have gender reassignment surgery and an on-going chemical cocktail, is that not literally changing sex?

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No, your sex is expressed in the genetic coding in every single cell in your body. Sir Prof Robert Winston, the eminent reproductive biologist of our time, explained quite simply and categorically on Question Time last year.

All the health related issues connected to your natal sex observed at birth remain even with change of gender.

And, the physical advantages or disadvantages of your puberty remain regardless of hormone levels. Lung capacity, muscle and bone density, height, skeleton and so on in terms of the inclusion of trans athletes in female sport.

Google Lia Thomas for a current example. Physically fully an in tact male with all the advantages of male puberty. Testosterone levels still way above the doping limits for natal female competitors who would be banned if swimming with the levels Lia Thomas has still.

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Originally Posted by 500miles

No, sex simply a descriptor of if someone's body is developed to produce large or small gametes. The bodies may develop incorrectly - like klinefelters, or chemo could destroy your bodies capacity to produce healthy sperms- but the vast vast majority of processes and organs are still there and functional.

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This 👍

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

This is an interesting thread.

https://twitter.com/MhairiHunter/sta...NkCJK0c-yvShtQ

It takes the view that the "safe spaces for women" argument is not relevant in the debate around the GRA. That it's already covered by the Equality Act, which will not change.

Here's a graphic from that thread.:-

Attachment 25645

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I do object to the changing of SEX on official documents. It conflates sex and gender and I think that moves us further away from a consistent, reality based position.

I know why trans people would want it changed though. The reality isn't kind when you're suffering dysphoria. It may be more helpful to have "Gender" on passports etc. anyway given it is a form of photo ID. Not for birth certificates though

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

This is an interesting thread.

https://twitter.com/MhairiHunter/sta...NkCJK0c-yvShtQ

It takes the view that the "safe spaces for women" argument is not relevant in the debate around the GRA. That it's already covered by the Equality Act, which will not change.

Here's a graphic from that thread.:-

Attachment 25645

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Mhairi Walker, ahem, |Hunter mustn't have read this thread and what I posted about the Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre. She's dismissing those who have concerns around the integrity of safe spaces for women, yet we know that this has been compromised already. How out of touch is she........?

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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

Mhairi Walker mustn't have read this thread and what I posted about the Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre.

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Doesn't matter if Mhairi Walker read it or not, but the bit that CWG posted is from Mhairi Hunter 😂

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

This is an interesting thread.

https://twitter.com/MhairiHunter/sta...NkCJK0c-yvShtQ

It takes the view that the "safe spaces for women" argument is not relevant in the debate around the GRA. That it's already covered by the Equality Act, which will not change.

Here's a graphic from that thread.:-

Attachment 25645

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Cheers CWG.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Are you saying that trans people don't have rights too?

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No. Where have I even implied that?

JK Rowling replies to Mhairi Hunter.

https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/statu...TF7r5aQpg&s=19

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“What did you do in the great pronoun war?”, my grandchildren will ask me. “I largely could not be arsed,” will be my reply.

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-- Suzanne Moore

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Originally Posted by James310

JK Rowling replies to Mhairi Hunter.

https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/statu...TF7r5aQpg&s=19

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Totally in agreement with the point JK Rowling is making.

A few short days after
@ShonaRobison
claimed there’s no evidence predators have ‘ever had to pretend to be anything else,’
@MhairiHunter
tells concerned women that the way to address their concerns is to pass the legislation they have concerns about.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

No. Where have I even implied that?

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You haven't, he just likes spinning yarns.

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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

Nobody is claiming this is irrefutable evidence that there's a biological spectrum of gender, but the more studies that are carried out and with advances is medical science I'm sure we'll find it.

Sent from my SM-A505FN using Tapatalk

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You seem to have a conclusion before the research and testing, which is a dangerous position to take in any medical field.

'What JK Rowling can teach Nicola Sturgeon about gender'

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...ba7a81fda6762c

Looks like the judiciary are tying themselves up in knots over these issues too.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57426579

Effectively sacked because of her views that people cannot change their biological sex, loses her case at Tribunal and then wins on appeal.

Monica Kurnatowska, employment partner at law firm Baker McKenzie, said the ruling meant that "individuals are entitled not to be discriminated against because of gender critical beliefs... and gives those beliefs the same legal protection as religious beliefs, environmental beliefs and ethical veganism".

"Employers will be watching closely for any guidance on how to handle employee conflict fairly and lawfully, while respecting the rights of all involved," she added.

Lui Asquith, director of legal and policy at Mermaids, a charity that supports transgender, non-binary and gender-diverse children and young people, said: "This is not the win anti-trans campaigners will suggest in the coming days.

"We, as trans people, are protected by equality law and this decision in the Maya Forstater case does not give anyone the right to unlawfully harass, intimidate, abuse or discriminate against us because we are trans."

What a load of old nonsense. There are more important issues facing humanity, I would suggest. Once Mr Putin has finished his project none of us will have any bollox, never mind what you were born with.

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Originally Posted by 500miles

You seem to have a conclusion before the research and testing, which is a dangerous position to take in any medical field.

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I think you might be severely overestimating the power of my opinion.

Sent from my SM-A505FN using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

I think you might be severely overestimating the power of my opinion.

Sent from my SM-A505FN using Tapatalk

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I'm suggesting that an organisation which sets out entirely to come to the conclusion that the brain is gendered, rather than how it relates to ideas of gender, or how it develops in relation to sex, could skew - even unintentionally - findings to fall in line with a desired outcome.

I'd also argue that this starting position creates a gap where there needn't be one between people who are not convinced about the substance of gender identity and people who are trans and gender non conforming.

To make a possibly crass comparison, it turns one side into zealots and the other into infidels.

I have a question.

If someone identifies as female having been born male - and whether they then have gender re-assignment therapy or not - are they given the subsequent medical treatment for any ailments they may develop throughout life as though they were female or as though they were male?

As an adjunct to this, I presume they would continue to be screened for eg prostate cancer?

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Originally Posted by One Day Soon

I have a question.

If someone identifies as female having been born male - and whether they then have gender re-assignment therapy or not - are they given the subsequent medical treatment for any ailments they may develop throughout life as though they were female or as though they were male?

As an adjunct to this, I presume they would continue to be screened for eg prostate cancer?

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Trans women can get prostate cancer, although it is rare.

Trans men can get cervical cancer, unless they have had a hysterectomy.

https://twitter.com/adhib/status/1501223986038034439


Interesting thread…