SNP are lying b******s as well !

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Originally Posted by Since90+2

What public sector service doesn't deserve 17% then? Police? fire Service? Prison Service? What about the armed forces?

If the general consensus is that they all deserve 17%, had anyone done calculations on what that would cost and how it would actually be paid.

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Any group of workers who have seen their wages eroded over the years are perfectly entitled to push for that to be rectified. The bosses will of course try and portray their demands as being unreasonable and tell them the pot is empty. And inevitably they will try and pit one group of workers against another in terms of who is the most deserving. I have zero sympathy for them no matter who they are, there’s only one side to be on in my book.
People were happy to clap for the public sector workers. Time to give them what they are worth and if that means taxes go up so be it. There was plenty of money found to protect businesses etc during Covid. Surely protecting the NHS is just as important, if the will is there then the money will be found.

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Originally Posted by marinello59

Any group of workers who have seen their wages eroded over the years are perfectly entitled to push for that to be rectified. The bosses will of course try and portray their demands as being unreasonable and tell them the pot is empty. And inevitably they will try and pit one group of workers against another in terms of who is the most deserving. I have zero sympathy for them no matter who they are, there’s only one side to be on in my book.
People were happy to clap for the public sector workers. Time to give them what they are worth and if that means taxes go up so be it. There was plenty of money found to protect businesses etc during Covid. Surely protecting the NHS is just as important, if the will is there then the money will be found.

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So taxes need to go up to pay for it?

So hypothetically, someone who has received a 5% increase should pay more in tax so someone who has been offered a 8% rise can receive a 17% wage rise?

Despite what people say on here, there isn't an easy fix to this. I suspect nurses will end up sometime close to 10%, which the majority will be happy enough with.

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Originally Posted by Since90+2

So taxes need to go up to pay for it?

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Where else do you think the money will come from? It's not as if NHS Trusts are making profits ...

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Originally Posted by grunt

Where else do you think the money will come from? It's not as if NHS Trusts are making profits ...

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That's the point isn't is.

As my point above says, that proposition essentially means you'd have workers who have received absolutely no wage rise or a minimal one like 3-4%, need to have less disposable income so a workforce offered 8% can be given a 17% increase.

That's not putting people against one another, it's the reality of the situation.

Personally, I think Nurses deserve a good increase but they won't get 17%, otherwise the floodgates will open and every public sector workers will ask for the same.

Something around the rate of inflation, 11 or 12% is probably correct IMO.

For context, my wife is a Nurse for the NHS.

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Originally Posted by Since90+2

So taxes need to go up to pay for it?

So hypothetically, someone who has received a 5% increase should pay more in tax so someone who has been offered a 8% rise can receive a 17% wage rise?

Despite what people say on here, there isn't an easy fix to this. I suspect nurses will end up sometime close to 10%, which the majority will be happy enough with

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I said if taxes have to go up then so be it. If. I think the money can and will be found if the politicians want to find it. The NHS is facing a staffing crisis largely down to pay and conditions. That has to be fixed.

If the nurses do get 10% and they are happy with it then that would be a considerable victory for them in the face of those trying to portray their demands as unreasonable and unrealistic.

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Originally Posted by grunt

Where else do you think the money will come from? It's not as if NHS Trusts are making profits ...

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This will only accelerate the privatisation of the nhs and people will be more accepting of it.

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Originally Posted by Zambernardi1875

This will only accelerate the privatisation of the nhs and people will be more accepting of it.

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I don't think people in the UK ever accept the wholesale privatisation of the NHS.

If it is to happen, it'll be done piecemeal and by stealth.

Public Sector wages have dropped on average 6% in the last decade, private sector 2%. Private sector workers should unionise too to prevent that.

Nurses have dropped 8% on average but grade 5 Nurses have dropped 20% in a decade, how is that acceptable. We should be fighting against that, thankfully the union are finally doing something about it. There is an obvious correlation between their wages being hammered and the staffing crisis they have.

They will find the funds in the budget. But if the question was would you pay more tax for better services I'm sure most would say yes

Enough is Enough
@eiecampaign
·

Why are nurses striking?

💵 Real pay down £4,300 since 2010

🧣 1 in 3 struggling to afford food and heating

🥫 1 in 8 forced to use foodbanks in last year

🏥 40,000 nurse shortfall means brutal hours

🤕 3 in 4 Trusts report mental health crisis

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Originally Posted by Since90+2

So taxes need to go up to pay for it?

So hypothetically, someone who has received a 5% increase should pay more in tax so someone who has been offered a 8% rise can receive a 17% wage rise?

Despite what people say on here, there isn't an easy fix to this. I suspect nurses will end up sometime close to 10%, which the majority will be happy enough with.

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Hypothetically there are many more tax income streams for the government other than income tax.

Why are F***wit SNP MSP’s wearing white poppies with Yes badge in the middle, bad enough the white poppy brigade hijack remembrance without money raised selling their poppies going to poppy Scotland charities. But this is disgusting ��

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Originally Posted by Berwickhibby

Why are F***wit SNP MSP’s wearing white poppies with Yes badge in the middle, bad enough the white poppy brigade hijack remembrance without money raised selling their poppies going to poppy Scotland charities. But this is disgusting ��

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I could counter by asking why unionists and loyalist have hijacked remembrance to push their own agendas and try to shame anyone who doesn't kow tow to wearing a poppy but I wont. Remembrance used to be a week or two at most and pretty dignified but it's now a year round thing and just look at Ibrox last night and then talk about hijacking!

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Originally Posted by Berwickhibby

Why are F***wit SNP MSP’s wearing white poppies with Yes badge in the middle, bad enough the white poppy brigade hijack remembrance without money raised selling their poppies going to poppy Scotland charities. But this is disgusting ��

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Is this standard practice among SNP MSPs? I saw a story about Michelle Thomson doing so but thought it was just her. Pretty tacky stuff nevertheless.

I was actually more surprised to see she's back in the SNP. I thought she got kicked out a few years back.

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Originally Posted by Berwickhibby

Why are F***wit SNP MSP’s wearing white poppies with Yes badge in the middle, bad enough the white poppy brigade hijack remembrance without money raised selling their poppies going to poppy Scotland charities. But this is disgusting ��

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Why would the PPU give their money to the charities that the BL support?

They support different causes.

No one is hijacking anything, wear whatever poppy you want.

I am against war so wear a white poppy. I could wear no poppy but I want to respect the people who have died to give us what we have.

I never think I am hijacking the red poppy cause. I disagree with the red poppy.

I’ve not seen the SNP yes white poppies, any idea where I could get one? ;-)

I won’t be buying one of them, for clarity.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

Is this standard practice among SNP MSPs? I saw a story about Michelle Thomson doing so but thought it was just her. Pretty tacky stuff nevertheless.

I was actually more surprised to see she's back in the SNP. I thought she got kicked out a few years back.

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What should be standard practice for poppy wearing? Mandatory for all? Must be a red one? Minimum donation level. Its pathetic, every single year the poppy police get on their high horses and try to cone over as all superior. And for the record I do contribute to the poppy fund but very rarely actually wear a poppy

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Originally Posted by weecounty hibby

What should be standard practice for poppy wearing? Mandatory for all? Must be a red one? Minimum donation level. Its pathetic, every single year the poppy police get on their high horses and try to cone over as all superior. And for the record I do contribute to the poppy fund but very rarely actually wear a poppy

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I meant the Yes badge tacked on to hers. Seemed unnecessarily political.

Aside from that I've never really got why folk get so worked up about poppy wearing these days. If you don't want to wear one then don't.

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Originally Posted by weecounty hibby

I could counter by asking why unionists and loyalist have hijacked remembrance to push their own agendas and try to shame anyone who doesn't kow tow to wearing a poppy but I wont. Remembrance used to be a week or two at most and pretty dignified but it's now a year round thing and just look at Ibrox last night and then talk about hijacking!

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There it is the Whataboutary…defend the SNP with look over there defence…speaking myself as a former NCO in the Army and a member of the Royal British Legion the poppy is apolitical and there for raising funds for veterans charities and to remember those who gave their lives in combat. I abhor the white poppy brigade, they have all year to sell their stuff but choose to use rememberance to sell their poppys, now any and I do mean any political party who use a poppy to promote their political point of view are ****.

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Originally Posted by Berwickhibby

There it is the Whataboutary…defend the SNP with look over there defence…speaking myself as a former NCO in the Army and a member of the Royal British Legion the poppy is apolitical and there for raising funds for veterans charities and to remember those who gave their lives in combat. I abhor the white poppy brigade, they have all year to sell their stuff but choose to use rememberance to sell their poppys, now any and I do mean any political party who use a poppy to promote their political point of view are ****.

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But those who wear a white poppy probably wouldn't wear a red one. So I don't think either are taking away funding in that respect

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Originally Posted by Berwickhibby

There it is the Whataboutary…defend the SNP with look over there defence…speaking myself as a former NCO in the Army and a member of the Royal British Legion the poppy is apolitical and there for raising funds for veterans charities and to remember those who gave their lives in combat. I abhor the white poppy brigade, they have all year to sell their stuff but choose to use rememberance to sell their poppys, now any and I do mean any political party who use a poppy to promote their political point of view are ****.

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Where did I defend them? I just can't stand the I'm better than you cos I wear a red poppy brigade. Every ****ing year without fail. You may not want to hear it but the poppy has been taken over as a signal for loyalists and unionism and has become very political. And actually some of the merchandise is as tacky as **** and imo diisrespects the fallen more than someone wearing a white poppy in remembrance of ALL deaths due to war. As I say I always make a contribution but very seldom wear a poppy, I don't need to make that particular statement to show my respects

A white poppy is a remembrance for all those who have died in war and a commitment towards peace.

Anyone who has an objection to that probably needs to take a look at themselves.

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Originally Posted by Since90+2

A white poppy is a remembrance for all those who have died in war and a commitment towards peace.

Anyone who has an objection to that probably needs to take a look at themselves.

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It's also been around for almost 90 years.

White, red or none, I don’t care. I do what I do and am happy to leave others to do the same.
The MSP in question didn’t set out to offend anybody , there really is nothing here to get worked up about.

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Originally Posted by Berwickhibby

Why are F***wit SNP MSP’s wearing white poppies with Yes badge in the middle, bad enough the white poppy brigade hijack remembrance without money raised selling their poppies going to poppy Scotland charities. But this is disgusting ��

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As a former squaddie do you not want peace? I assume you know that the white poppy is a symbol of peace.


https://www.ppu.org.uk/remembrance-white-poppies


Been worn for 90 years.

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Originally Posted by Berwickhibby

Why are F***wit SNP MSP’s wearing white poppies with Yes badge in the middle, bad enough the white poppy brigade hijack remembrance without money raised selling their poppies going to poppy Scotland charities. But this is disgusting ��

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Oh here we ****ing go, it's started late this year but I guess it was inevitable. I used to wear my poppy in a show of respect for those who paid the ultimate price for my freedom, now I'm almost ashamed to wear it because it is now a source of conflict rather than a symbol of peace. The right have hijacked it and turned it into a competition to see who can virtue signal the loudest and use it as a weapon to beat political opponents with. Just **** off with your poppy wars.

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Originally Posted by Berwickhibby

There it is the Whataboutary…defend the SNP with look over there defence…speaking myself as a former NCO in the Army and a member of the Royal British Legion the poppy is apolitical and there for raising funds for veterans charities and to remember those who gave their lives in combat. I abhor the white poppy brigade, they have all year to sell their stuff but choose to use rememberance to sell their poppys, now any and I do mean any political party who use a poppy to promote their political point of view are ****.

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my grandad always wore a white poppy as he was a conscientious objector after WWII - i.e. it wasn't that he was refusing to go to war, it had finished, he was refusing to do military service in peace time so did a stint in jail instead.

The army is in principle an apolitical entity, but in reality, it's use is always tied in with empire, whether that's in aggression or in defence - in the UK's case, the former far, far more than the latter. You could make the case for the troubles being defensive, but there is still a debate to be had there, and it's certainly the legacy of empire. WWII was essentially a horrific hangover of the previous war between competing empires...I know you don't need a history lesson...I just think it's entirely valid to want to check out of the entire practice and indeed protest against it (peacefully) is one's perspective is that the whole remembrance thing in some way glorifies the deaths of poor people fighting rich peoples' wars. It certainly isn't a dig at the people who have died and are being remembered, though.

The other element is that it is a complete disgrace that veterans charities need to exist - if the state is going to send people off to war, surely it is the state's responsibility to look after them properly when they return, should they require support? The whole remembrance thing seems to be an exercise in pawning off responsibility on that front.

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Originally Posted by Since90+2

A white poppy is a remembrance for all those who have died in war and a commitment towards peace.

Anyone who has an objection to that probably needs to take a look at themselves.

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Which is what the RBL started out to pursue.

Peace that is.

I don’t think they honoured all who fell in war.

They pursue peace whilst also supporting armed forces day which is a day to sell the idea of joining the forces. It is contradictory.

Of course the work the RBL does with vets should be applauded.

The PPU wants no vets.

As for the PPU ‘using’ remembrance day as a way to ‘advertise’.

I’m not entirely sure when else someone would expect that people would wear a white poppy.

You can purchase a white poppy all year round if you should want to.

Both red and white poppies have been hijacked, by right wing and stop the war pacifists. Wonder if when the last of the world war veterans pass people will stop using war to score points.

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Originally Posted by Berwickhibby

There it is the Whataboutary…defend the SNP with look over there defence…speaking myself as a former NCO in the Army and a member of the Royal British Legion the poppy is apolitical and there for raising funds for veterans charities and to remember those who gave their lives in combat. I abhor the white poppy brigade, they have all year to sell their stuff but choose to use rememberance to sell their poppys, now any and I do mean any political party who use a poppy to promote their political point of view are ****.

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It's only whataboutery because it's something you yourself care so much about, which you are entitled to do. From other people's point of view its sowhataboutery. People are allowed to donate to what they want. For what it's worth the "yes" in the middle is pretty shan, whether they are trying to be provocative or countering the doolally edge of "poppy enforcers" or just think it looks good they look crappy imo. Then again, so what?

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Both red and white poppies have been hijacked, by right wing and stop the war pacifists. Wonder if when the last of the world war veterans pass people will stop using war to score points.

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The white poppy is the symbol of the peace pledge union.

I’m not sure who you would expect to wear it, other than those who want wars to stop?

The "yes" on Thomson's poppy is extremely crass. She's definitely someone I'd rather was an Alba member.