The Trans Rights Debate

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Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

Ian Murray must have a whole lot of blisters on his backside from all the fence sitting he did yesterday while he desperately tries to calculate what side of the fence is in the interests of his own personal career.

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Like many, if Nicola Sturgeon is on one side, he is on the other. No matter what the issue might be.


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Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

Ian Murray must have a whole lot of blisters on his backside from all the fence sitting he did yesterday while he desperately tries to calculate what side of the fence is in the interests of his own personal career.

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Everybody is positioning on this.

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Originally Posted by archie

Everybody is positioning on this.

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I'm not so sure about that. I don't think any of the MSPs who were brave enough to back this bill did so in the belief that it would be a career booster, considering the horrendously negative coverage it has received in the British Media over the years.

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Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

I'm not so sure about that. I don't think any of the MSPs who were brave enough to back this bill did so in the belief that it would be a career booster, considering the horrendously negative coverage it has received in the British Media over the years.

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Surely you agree that effects on career progression were worst for snp mps that apposed the bill.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Surely you agree that effects on career progression were worst for snp mps that apposed the bill.

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Not if they stand as independents or for another party in the next election and ultimately win the popular vote. The Gender Reform Bill isn't exactly a vote winner based on current social attitudes towards it (heavily influenced by the media).

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Maggie Chapman is one on the committee and she's the current laughing stock of the press and social media just now. A free ride for a politician right now opposing that fruitcake

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Glaikit is the word that sprung to mind when I heard her car crash interview the other day, but fruitcake is more apt.

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Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

Not if they stand as independents or for another party in the next election and ultimately win the popular vote. The Gender Reform Bill isn't exactly a vote winner based on current social attitudes towards it (heavily influenced by the media).

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This is just mental stuff. So it would be good for there career if they quit the snp, win against the snp as an independent or change party and win 👍

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

This is just mental stuff. So it would be good for there career if they quit the snp, win against the snp as an independent or change party and win 👍

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If they thought they were going to lose their seat as an SNP MSP anyway, then yes.

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Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

I'm not so sure about that. I don't think any of the MSPs who were brave enough to back this bill did so in the belief that it would be a career booster, considering the horrendously negative coverage it has received in the British Media over the years.

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I think their view was that it would be, but maybe the ground has shifted beneath their feet. One of the unintended consequences that I see is that commentators down south whobwould have a positive view of FM (mainly due to Brexit) are more critical.

Tories tying themselves in knots over their proposed ban on conversion therapy in England for trans people.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...nts-criminals/

I thought yesterday's announcement was too good to be true, and I was a bit suspicious about its timing.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Tories tying themselves in knots over their proposed ban on conversion therapy in England for trans people.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...nts-criminals/

I thought yesterday's announcement was too good to be true, and I was a bit suspicious about the timing.

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I wonder if this is going to be the next drafting mess of legislation. My fundamental issue with the gender reform legislation is vagueness and lack of clarity of definitions. This has the potential to be worse.

All conversation therapy should be illegal. Conversations between parents and kids were surely never going to be close to being criminalised

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

All conversation therapy should be illegal. Conversations between parents and kids were surely never going to be close to being criminalised

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You see this is the issue. People quite rightly have a horror at some of the cases of beatings, forced exorcism etc. But these are already illegal. So what is it you want to ban? That vagueness is where the concerns around therapy, counselling etc. Come in. Also, what if someone wants conversion therapy?

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Originally Posted by archie

You see this is the issue. People quite rightly have a horror at some of the cases of beatings, forced exorcism etc. But these are already illegal. So what is it you want to ban? That vagueness is where the concerns around therapy, counselling etc. Come in. Also, what if someone wants conversion therapy?

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Here's a decent starting point. The SG is slightly ahead of the UKG in developing something.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/ex...tions/pages/3/

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Originally Posted by archie

You see this is the issue. People quite rightly have a horror at some of the cases of beatings, forced exorcism etc. But these are already illegal. So what is it you want to ban? That vagueness is where the concerns around therapy, counselling etc. Come in. Also, what if someone wants conversion therapy?

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Start by banning any organisation or group who's raison d'etre is conversion. You can't police everything and things will go underground ect but you do what you can. Is someone wants support they should be able to have it and it should be impartial

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Originally Posted by archie

You see this is the issue. People quite rightly have a horror at some of the cases of beatings, forced exorcism etc. But these are already illegal. So what is it you want to ban? That vagueness is where the concerns around therapy, counselling etc. Come in. Also, what if someone wants conversion therapy?

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I don't think anybody wants conversion therapy. Nobody can be happier in life pretending to be anything other than themselves. Some people however feel that they have to get it, due to peer and societal pressures and stigma that simply shouldn't exist.

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcas...=1000595021007


Worth a listen.


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I think this had caught Keir by surprise.

Keir Starmer's spokesman says the party can't identify any aspect of the Scottish Gender Recognition Reform act that would undermine single sex spaces, but want to wait to see the government's own legal advice before offering a view.

https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/stat...02357110853632

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Here's a decent starting point. The SG is slightly ahead of the UKG in developing something.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/ex...tions/pages/3/

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I've seen it. Just not clear what problem they need to solve that isn’t already illegal.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Start by banning any organisation or group who's raison d'etre is conversion. You can't police everything and things will go underground ect but you do what you can. Is someone wants support they should be able to have it and it should be impartial

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That's a hell of a wide definition. What do you mean by conversion?

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Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

I don't think anybody wants conversion therapy. Nobody can be happier in life pretending to be anything other than themselves. Some people however feel that they have to get it, due to peer and societal pressures and stigma that simply shouldn't exist.

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Really? No one ever wants to change themselves? This also assumes that people live in a steady state throughout their lifetime. But surely people's perspective can change.

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Originally Posted by archie

Really? No one ever wants to change themselves? This also assumes that people live in a steady state throughout their lifetime. But surely people's perspective can change.

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Sexuality and gender identification are not perspectives. People don't choose to be attracted to the same sex and transgenderism isn't some hobby that people lose interest in. It's hard wired into their very being.

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Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

Sexuality and gender identification are not perspectives. People don't choose to be attracted to the same sex and transgenderism isn't some hobby that people lose interest in. It's hard wired into their very being.

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How would you explain detransitioners then? Some gave very powerful evidence to the committee in the Scottish Parliament.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...-b1041530.html

“When I presented myself to a gender identity clinic, I felt so certain that medical transition was the only solution for me, but now I wish that greater care had been taken to consider all my underlying issues"

It can't be hard wired into them all would you accept?

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Originally Posted by James310

How would you explain detransitioners then? Some gave very powerful evidence to the committee in the Scottish Parliament.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...-b1041530.html

“When I presented myself to a gender identity clinic, I felt so certain that medical transition was the only solution for me, but now I wish that greater care had been taken to consider all my underlying issues"

It can't be hard wired into them all would you accept?

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If it isn't hard wired, then it isn't transgenderism. A transgender person doesn't "think" that they are transgender, they simply are. They couldn't possibly be themselves if they weren't.

I have no doubt there are people who get gender reassignment surgery who ultimately regret it, because it's not who they truly are. Just as they'll be people who go through life and regret not getting gender reassignment surgery because it is who they are.

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Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

Sexuality and gender identification are not perspectives. People don't choose to be attracted to the same sex and transgenderism isn't some hobby that people lose interest in. It's hard wired into their very being.

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Not sure I agree with you here.

Sexuality is a spectrum, that people can and do move up and down throughout their lives.

Or have I picked you up wrong?

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Not sure I agree with you here.

Sexuality is a spectrum, that people can and do move up and down throughout their lives.

Or have I picked you up wrong?

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Sexuality is a spectrum. However that doesn't mean that people simply move around it. It's not that people's sexuality changes over time. It's that it can take time for a person to discover what their true sexuality actually is. A person can spend years in a straight relationship for example, only to discover that they are actually gay. Does that mean that they were straight up to that point and just suddenly decided they were going to be gay from now on? I don't believe it works that way.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

There is a thread on here all about women’s safety which some of the posters on this thread who seem very worried about the threat of trans predators have barely posted on. It seems women only really need protected from trans people?
Or maybe, there is just no way to attack NS on that thread?


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Just pure coincidence.

https://twitter.com/glennbbc/status/...4w_0bHAan8HlMQ

Scottish Labour MSP’s seem to be unhappy.


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Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

Sexuality is a spectrum. However that doesn't mean that people simply move around it. It's not that people's sexuality changes over time. It's that it can take time for a person to discover what their true sexuality actually is. A person can spend years in a straight relationship for example, only to discover that they are actually gay. Does that mean that they were straight up to that point and just suddenly decided they were going to be gay from now on? I don't believe it works that way.

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They absolutely do.

Sexuality is not binary. It can evolve and change based on life circumstances and experiences; many people move between straight, gay, bi, pan, asexuality etc. Most people, of course, stay at the same point on the spectrum throughout their lives, but of itself sexuality is fluid.

https://twitter.com/glennbbc/status/...4w_0bHAan8HlMQ

Very weak from Sarwar. They would have been just as well sticking with Richard Leonard.


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