Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Let's deconstruct this :greengrin

“We tried to get this done earlier. I’m frustrated that we lost two months at the start of the process expecting a CVA to go through but HMRC at the last minute decided not to go ahead with it."

1. So, Mr. Green, you seriously expected HMRC to agree to a CVA?

2. HMRC didn't decide "at the last minute" to object. There was a time limit for the process, which is laid down by law. They complied with that.

“Then we’ve seen recently the Big Tax Case thrown out. I’m particularly frustrated that if we had been allowed a free rein this could have been done months earlier.”

Um.. that has nothing to do with your company, remember?

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Last week I was talking to an old school pal who had just retired from 30 odd years working in the HMRC courts dept. Don't worry CWG, he is still sworn to secrecy, so I did'nt get any client information out of him. :wink:
What he did tell me though, was the last couple of years at work were hell for himself and colleagues. Different parties trying to influence how the Rangers and Hearts cases have been handled and everyone watching their backs. Seems there was strong support for the Rangers CVA from some quarters in the HMRC and it was a late ruling from the " Top " that forced the liquidation.
Chuckie might well have been getting signals that the CVA was in the bag, but he must have been listening to the Monkey and not the Organ Grinder.
I would loved to have heard the Yorkshire pr!ck when news of the extinction of Rangers 1872 filtered through. :greengrin

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Let's deconstruct this :greengrin

“We tried to get this done earlier. I’m frustrated that we lost two months at the start of the process expecting a CVA to go through but HMRC at the last minute decided not to go ahead with it."

1. So, Mr. Green, you seriously expected HMRC to agree to a CVA?

2. HMRC didn't decide "at the last minute" to object. There was a time limit for the process, which is laid down by law. They complied with that.

“Then we’ve seen recently the Big Tax Case thrown out. I’m particularly frustrated that if we had been allowed a free rein this could have been done months earlier.”

Um.. that has nothing to do with your company, remember?

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When was it 'thrown out'? My understanding was that some of the money claimed by HMRC was classified by the Tribunal as loans, and not subject to tax, but that an appeal would be lodged...not out of the woods yet :no way:

Anyone thinking it would be worthwhile 'shorting' The Rangers shares when they float on the stock market i.e. you bet that the share price will go down.

These 'institutional investors' must be delighted at the zombie's take up. :greengrin

http://www.londonstockexchange.com/e...ers+int&page=1

Anyone interested in the Rangers International share price ?

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Originally Posted by PatHead

Chuckie now blaming HMRC for their miserable flop of a share issue. Wonder if The Rangers will ever accept responsibility for anything?

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/footba...ming-1-2697314

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They wouldn't have got anything near £17M from pension funds, etc if they hadn't received approval from HMRC for EIS and VCT status.

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Originally Posted by johnbc70

Anyone thinking it would be worthwhile 'shorting' The Rangers shares when they float on the stock market i.e. you bet that the share price will go down.

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To be able to go short on a stock you need someone else to go long on it.
Good luck finding someone.

What is this 140 year old institution Green is referring to?!

Looking at it from an objective point of view, it might be an alright investment.

Next season they'll probably be playing in a restructured football league, being placed in "Division 2" which will be 18 teams and the season after that they'll get promoted to the top division of 16 teams. By this restructuring they'll avoid one extra season out of the top division. They'll have had 2 seasons on the cheap with near full support and then enter the top division as the strongest team financially. First season back, it's likely that they will emerge winners of the restructured top division.

Are the Chairmen of the other clubs in the Scottish league going to have the bottle to turn down the 16/18 team stucture of the top 2 divisions? I doubt it.

First season after they ar back, watch for another league restructure back to 4 divisions with the top division being 12 teams only.

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Originally Posted by cocteautwin

Looking at it from an objective point of view, it might be an alright investment.

Next season they'll probably be playing in a restructured football league, being placed in "Division 2" which will be 18 teams and the season after that they'll get promoted to the top division of 16 teams. By this restructuring they'll avoid one extra season out of the top division. They'll have had 2 seasons on the cheap with near full support and then enter the top division as the strongest team financially. First season back, it's likely that they will emerge winners of the restructured top division.

Are the Chairmen of the other clubs in the Scottish league going to have the bottle to turn down the 16/18 team stucture of the top 2 divisions? I doubt it.

First season after they ar back, watch for another league restructure back to 4 divisions with the top division being 12 teams only.

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Devil's Advocate on the "sound investment".

1. I am pretty sure that the new League won't be in place for next year.

2. of the £22m apparently raised, just under half is earmarked for improvements to Ibrox.

3. from various sources, it looks like a loss of £10m is expected this year. I can't see next year being any different. They pay their manager more than any of their current competitors turn over. :greengrin

4. the directors of the new company are concerned about possible action by BDO over the apparent undervaluing of the assets which they bought from the Oldco.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Devil's Advocate on the "sound investment".

1. I am pretty sure that the new League won't be in place for next year.

2. of the £22m apparently raised, just under half is earmarked for improvements to Ibrox.

3. from various sources, it looks like a loss of £10m is expected this year. I can't see next year being any different. They pay their manager more than any of their current competitors turn over. :greengrin

4. the directors of the new company are concerned about possible action by BDO over the apparent undervaluing of the assets which they bought from the Oldco.

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Actually, to be quite honest, I wasn't really serious about the investment potential, I was just hoping to start a debate on the league restructure that The Rangers are hoping for. I think it will happen before the start of next season and it will be engineered to allow them one less season out of the top division. It's something that's not really talked about generally and I, for one, am frightened that fans are sleep walking in to it happening. Can we start a national campaign from here to protest this happening before it's even suggested by the Scottish football authorities? :wink:

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Originally Posted by cocteautwin

Actually, to be quite honest, I wasn't really serious about the investment potential, I was just hoping to start a debate on the league restructure that The Rangers are hoping for. I think it will happen before the start of next season and it will be engineered to allow them one less season out of the top division. It's something that's not really talked about generally and I, for one, am frightened that fans are sleep walking in to it happening. Can we start a national campaign from here to protest this happening before it's even suggested by the Scottish football authorities? :wink:

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Rod said at the AGM, without prompting, that the new proposals were not a means of getting Rangers back in the top league quicker.

One has to believe him at this stage. However, QED, the club chairmen would be wise not to ignore their fans if they do have other intentions.

On reflection, having just scribbled some stats down, I still don't see how RFC could get back in to the top League any quicker than they would under the current system.

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Originally Posted by Iain G

What is this 140 year old institution Green is referring to?!

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This is a competition isn't it.........?

Is it the one he gets taken off to at the end of each day out in the community......?

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Devil's Advocate on the "sound investment".

1. I am pretty sure that the new League won't be in place for next year.

2. of the £22m apparently raised, just under half is earmarked for improvements to Ibrox.

3. from various sources, it looks like a loss of £10m is expected this year. I can't see next year being any different. They pay their manager more than any of their current competitors turn over. :greengrin

4. the directors of the new company are concerned about possible action by BDO over the apparent undervaluing of the assets which they bought from the Oldco.

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Another point about the current value of the club at around £45 million is that for institutional investors that has to be justified by dividend payments of £4 million a year or so. Where's this to come from in the foreseeable future given a likely current loss and use of much of the funds for Ibrox improvements (quite possibly long-neglected essential maintenance not making much addition to revenue)?

While investment in small companies is inherently a high risk area, I'm surprised they got so much institutional money given the history of non-dividend payments by football clubs, the track record of some of the individuals behind Sevco and above all the prospectus.

Possibly they've bought into Green's pitch of strict cost control and participation in a revised structure of European football. I expect a renewed drive for a UK league, probably starting in 2016-17 as Rangers are likely to be back in the SPL in 2015-16. A bit off topic, but the result of the 2014 independence referendum could have a significant effect on the debate.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

On reflection, having just scribbled some stats down, I still don't see how RFC could get back in to the top League any quicker than they would under the current system.

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Rangers finish top of Div 3 this year, effectively becoming the the 33rd best team in Scotland.

New Top Division includes 16 teams, being 12 from Premier League and 4 from Division 1.

New second Division includes 18 teams, being 6 from Division 1, 10 from Division 2 and the top 2 in Division 3.

New Division 3 includes . . . . . . . . . actually, SFA/SFL/SPL doesn't care about division 3 now that the crooks at the top of Scottish football have achieved their crooked aim of getting Rangers up there a year quicker.

Or am I missing something?

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Originally Posted by cocteautwin

Rangers finish top of Div 3 this year, effectively becoming the the 33rd best team in Scotland.

New Top Division includes 16 teams, being 12 from Premier League and 4 from Division 1.

New second Division includes 18 teams, being 6 from Division 1, 10 from Division 2 and the top 2 in Division 3.

New Division 3 includes . . . . . . . . . actually, SFA/SFL/SPL doesn't care about division 3 now that the crooks at the top of Scottish football have achieved their crooked aim of getting Rangers up there a year quicker.

Or am I missing something?

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I was working on this plan, which I thought was the favoured one:-

Two leagues, an SPL1 and SPL2, would be formed, both consisting of 12 teams respectively. Each team would play each other twice in their respective divisions, creating 22 fixtures.

After two rounds, the leagues would then merge and split into three groups of eight. Each team would again play each other twice, leading to a total of 36 games being played across the course of the campaign.

The clubs in the top eight at the split would contend for the title and European spots, and would be guaranteed a place in SPL1 in the new season.

The middle group would arguably be the most competitive. The teams finishing in the top four positions would play in SPL1 in the new campaign, with the bottom four playing in SPL2.

The bottom group would fight it out to avoid relegation to the SFL. It is not clear at this stage how many relegation spots would be opened up.

Now that newcorfc are again flush with cash will Green be a man and payback all those they chose not to pay ? No he will continue to be a rat and never will have any class or scruples.

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Originally Posted by southsider

Now that newcorfc are again flush with cash will Green be a man and payback all those they chose not to pay ? No he will continue to be a rat and never will have any class or scruples.

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Like who? :confused:

I take it the £ 22 million raised would be the Gross amount. The £ 17 million which was placed with the institutions would be subject to the Stockbrokers commission of 5 - 7 % and they would have to be discounted to the institutions. I have heard figures of up to 15 % for certain placements.

Don't suppose Chuckie will be forthcoming on the actual cash figure the New Club is enriched by.

There were lists of creditors who went unpaid and who will never receive a penny. The Limited Company laws are outdated and directors should be made to take full responsibility for their companies failings even if it means selling every asset they have, in order to pay the creditors. While i am at it the creditor who is due the least should be paid first and work from the bottom up. The corner shop and the window cleaner need the cash a lot more than ticketus, if you get my drift. Newco should never have been allowed in any league untill all oldco debts were paid.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

I was working on this plan, which I thought was the favoured one:-

Two leagues, an SPL1 and SPL2, would be formed, both consisting of 12 teams respectively. Each team would play each other twice in their respective divisions, creating 22 fixtures.

After two rounds, the leagues would then merge and split into three groups of eight. Each team would again play each other twice, leading to a total of 36 games being played across the course of the campaign.

The clubs in the top eight at the split would contend for the title and European spots, and would be guaranteed a place in SPL1 in the new season.

The middle group would arguably be the most competitive. The teams finishing in the top four positions would play in SPL1 in the new campaign, with the bottom four playing in SPL2.

The bottom group would fight it out to avoid relegation to the SFL. It is not clear at this stage how many relegation spots would be opened up.

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Ah yes. The "Official" plan. Meanwhile, in the background, . . . . . . . . . . . :wink:

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Originally Posted by southsider

There were lists of creditors who went unpaid and who will never receive a penny. The Limited Company laws are outdated and directors should be made to take full responsibility for their companies failings even if it means selling every asset they have, in order to pay the creditors. While i am at it the creditor who is due the least should be paid first and work from the bottom up. The corner shop and the window cleaner need the cash a lot more than ticketus, if you get my drift. Newco should never have been allowed in any league untill all oldco debts were paid.

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There are laws in place which allow for directors to be pursued personally in the event of wrongful trading. BDO may yet go down that route.

However , Green will not be affected directly by that; those debts are none of his concern. It would only be those directors in the SDM and CW dynasties who might be open to prosecution.

As for your Ticketus point, Pathead will be along in a minute to explain exactly why those small investors in Ticketus would disagree. :wink:

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

There are laws in place which allow for directors to be pursued personally in the event of wrongful trading. BDO may yet go down that route.

However , Green will not be affected directly by that; those debts are none of his concern. It would only be those directors in the SDM and CW dynasties.

As for your Ticketus point, Pathead will be along in a minute to explain exactly why those small investors in Ticketus would disagree. :wink:

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Essentially any EIS is full of smaller investors, many of whom will have a lesser debt than some of these middle ranking creditors. Why should they lose out as they wouldn't have chosen to invest in the Rangers ticket deal, that was the choice of the fund manager.

To be fair they were aware it was a high risk investment and did receive a very good tax incentive for making the investment. Still don't see why they should go to the bottom of the list though.

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Originally Posted by PatHead

Chuckie now blaming HMRC for their miserable flop of a share issue. Wonder if The Rangers will ever accept responsibility for anything?

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/footba...ming-1-2697314

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Sorry but how is it a 'miserable flop' if they've raised 22M?



:confused:

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Originally Posted by keekaboo

Sorry but how is it a 'miserable flop' if they've raised 22M?



:confused:

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At the time I posted it was being reported that they had sold approx £2m to their fans. If I am correct I think this increased to £5m by closing time. With regard to the £22m I still am not convinced they have raised £22m. They may have "sold" £22m worth of shares and it wouldn't surprise me if this figure includes the freebies to Green, McCoist and other directors and finally to Mike Ashley for buying the rights to all The Rangers sports gear. In addition there will be large discounts applied to instituional investors, costs of the share issue etc. But to be fair if Chuckie told me today was Wednesday I would be check. I wouldn't believe a word that comes out of his mouth and I bet he gets more out it than The Rangers will in the long term.

Probably models himself on the directors of Comet.

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Originally Posted by keekaboo

Sorry but how is it a 'miserable flop' if they've raised 22M?



:confused:

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Still less than the amount they swindled out of ticketus.:cb

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Originally Posted by proud_and_green

This is a competition isn't it.........?

Is it the one he gets taken off to at the end of each day out in the community......?

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I can only assume he is using the same accountants as the old defunct Rangers football team who still cant manage to do the math properly; or he is counting in 'hun' years which are like dog years, and one hun year equals about one day in normal time...?!

According to the latest Private Eye Green and the original investors only paid 1P for their shares so a tidy profit for them.

I wonder if this was his original goal or maybe he is really a knuckle dragging bigot ?

poor wee lambs

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/footba...jibe-1-2694792

“Currently top of the table, they will be hoping to go on to seal the title and clinch their first silverware.”


that article in the montrose programme is correct, so wtf are they moaning about now...

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

I was working on this plan, which I thought was the favoured one:-

Two leagues, an SPL1 and SPL2, would be formed, both consisting of 12 teams respectively. Each team would play each other twice in their respective divisions, creating 22 fixtures.

After two rounds, the leagues would then merge and split into three groups of eight. Each team would again play each other twice, leading to a total of 36 games being played across the course of the campaign.

The clubs in the top eight at the split would contend for the title and European spots, and would be guaranteed a place in SPL1 in the new season.

The middle group would arguably be the most competitive. The teams finishing in the top four positions would play in SPL1 in the new campaign, with the bottom four playing in SPL2.

The bottom group would fight it out to avoid relegation to the SFL. It is not clear at this stage how many relegation spots would be opened up.

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I was pretty sure the new leagues would be created on an invite basis. Therefore, rangers would be invited.