The Trans Rights Debate

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Originally Posted by weecounty hibby

And that is his strategy so far, just be like the Tories and hope no one notices. He won't win the next election by hiding. I actually don't think he will win it anyway

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OK, but if I was Starmer I'd take advice from people who actually wanted me to win.

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Originally Posted by archie

He will make that calculation. As it's such a contentious issue I can see a logic to keeping out of it. In some respects I think it's easier just now as the 'issue' has moved on to whether the Scottish Parliament has exceeded it's powers. The Tories and the SNP/Greens will slug that out, but ultimately it will be a legal interpretation that determines it. There is a lot in it for the Tories and the SNP/Greens that goes far beyond the actual issue, which is why you are getting the megaphone rhetoric.

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Your discounting the fact the Scottish Labour Party have already taken sides.
The issue itself isn’t the problem. I doubt that moves a single vote. It’s the impression of cowardice.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Your discounting the fact the Scottish Labour Party have already taken sides.
The issue itself isn’t the problem. I doubt that moves a single vote. It’s the impression of cowardice.


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If you take FM, I've no doubt you would hail her bravery on this issue. There are also people in her own party who see this as reckless, dangerous and can't understand why you choose this hill to die on. Time will tell.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...itics-64315517

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Your discounting the fact the Scottish Labour Party have already taken sides.
The issue itself isn’t the problem. I doubt that moves a single vote. It’s the impression of cowardice.


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I'd be stunned if most of the uk didn't really care about what Starmer is or isn't saying about this. It's obviously going to go to a big long court case. He was in pf he would be mad to talk now, just wait and see what the outcome is. If its shown to be illegal then all the talk beforehand was utterly pointless

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Originally Posted by archie

OK, but if I was Starmer I'd take advice from people who actually wanted me to win.

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As much as I am firmly an independence supporter I want Labour to win a UK election.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

I'd put your money up at the bookies then. 1/3 labour win 9/4 the tories, punt on

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2 years out.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Your discounting the fact the Scottish Labour Party have already taken sides.
The issue itself isn’t the problem. I doubt that moves a single vote. It’s the impression of cowardice.


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In terms of the electorate that Starmer is playing to, it's just not an issue. To the Red Wall, Scottish politics rarely register and are an irrelevance.

In many ways, keeping silent and watching the debate is a learning experience. When England decides to move on gender reform, much of the debate will be pre-rehearsed, based on the Scottish experience.

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Originally Posted by archie

If you take FM, I've no doubt you would hail her bravery on this issue. There are also people in her own party who see this as reckless, dangerous and can't understand why you choose this hill to die on. Time will tell.

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Braver are the people speaking up when they know it will affect their career by challenging the bill

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Originally Posted by weecounty hibby

2 years out.

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Your bet will still count. If I thought they wouldn't win I'd be mad not putting a decent wedge on the tories winning

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Originally Posted by He's here!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...itics-64315517

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If anyone knows it would be him, probably the most qualified of all the different "experts" that have had an opinion. Says it's a "mistake" for the Scottish Government to take this to court as they will lose.

If he is right and the court agrees there is going to be some very senior politicians embarrassed as they are categorically saying it doesn't impact UK legislation.

On the flip side if it doesn't impact UK laws there will be equally embarrassed politicians on the other side.

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Originally Posted by James310

If anyone knows it would be him, probably the most qualified of all the different "experts" that have had an opinion. Says it's a "mistake" for the Scottish Government to take this to court as they will lose.

If he is right and the court agrees there is going to be some very senior politicians embarrassed as they are categorically saying it doesn't impact UK legislation.

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Losing the court case will be bad for trans people but not for people who support Indy. It will be another example of Scotland not being able to make decisions without permission from England.
The UK govt forcing the Scottish Parliament to go to court to act on devolved issues isn’t bad for building support for independence.


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Originally Posted by James310

If anyone knows it would be him, probably the most qualified of all the different "experts" that have had an opinion. Says it's a "mistake" for the Scottish Government to take this to court as they will lose.

If he is right and the court agrees there is going to be some very senior politicians embarrassed as they are categorically saying it doesn't impact UK legislation.

On the flip side if it doesn't impact UK laws there will be equally embarrassed politicians on the other side.

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This has the potential to blow up in everyone's face. I think the Haldane judgement has been a game changer. That feeds directly into the same sex spaces argument that UKG has put forward. I'm not a lawyer, but it appears to me that it makes the SG case harder, partly because the other points UKG has raised don't look like slam dunks. But we'll see.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Losing the court case will be bad for trans people but not for people who support Indy. It will be another example of Scotland not being able to make decisions without permission from England.
The UK govt forcing the Scottish Parliament to go to court to act on devolved issues isn’t bad for building support for independence.


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Don't think that's true when about 80% of people polled are against sections of the bill. This doesn't fall on regular political lines

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Losing the court case will be bad for trans people but not for people who support Indy. It will be another example of Scotland not being able to make decisions without permission from England.
The UK govt forcing the Scottish Parliament to go to court to act on devolved issues isn’t bad for building support for independence.


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OK, but there is danger too. Does FM really want to be seen in the same light as Maggie Chapmam? Losing another case doesn’t scream competence. And like it or not, when there is a case that can in any way be linked to the legislation, you can be sure that the finger will be pointed at the Scottish
Government. And allowing the Tories to position themselves as defenders of women's rights!

Anyone know when Alister Jack is due to appear before the Equalities Committee at Holyrood? Has he been called to appear yet?

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Losing the court case will be bad for trans people but not for people who support Indy. It will be another example of Scotland not being able to make decisions without permission from England.
The UK govt forcing the Scottish Parliament to go to court to act on devolved issues isn’t bad for building support for independence.


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Ah yet another reason for Independence! Or alternatively it's a court of law making a judgement on the law. If the Scottish Parliament via the Scottish Government has passed illegal Bills that's their problem, I don't see how that boosts the case for Indy. Can't see the logic in people thinking the Scottish Government messed up and passed an illegal Bill as they failed to do the correct checks and balances, where do I sign up for the Yes campaign.

You were adamant the Supreme Court ruling would boost the case for Indy, that pretty much everything will boost the base for Indy actually, last poll for Indy? 44%.

You keep bringing this back to Independence and Nicola Sturgeon, is that where your real concerns are, the impact this has on Independence and Nicola Sturgeon?

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Originally Posted by James310

Ah yet another reason for Independence! Or alternatively it's a court of law making a judgement on the law. If the Scottish Parliament via the Scottish Government has passed illegal Bills that's their problem, I don't see how that boosts the case for Indy. Can't see the logic in people thinking the Scottish Government messed up and passed an illegal Bill as they failed to do the correct checks and balances, where do I sign up for the Yes campaign.

You were adamant the Supreme Court ruling would boost the case for Indy, that pretty much everything will boost the base for Indy actually, last poll for Indy? 44%.

You keep bringing this back to Independence and Nicola Sturgeon, is that where your real concerns are, the impact this has on Independence and Nicola Sturgeon?

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James, that last paragraph really hurts. It shows you are not reading my posts.

All the rest is drivel.


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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Anyone know when Alister Jack is due to appear before the Equalities Committee at Holyrood? Has he been called to appear yet?

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He was called yesterday. My bet is he won't attend.

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

He was called yesterday. My bet is he won't attend.

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Ta.

Is there a mechanism for sanction if he dingies them?

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

He was called yesterday. My bet is he won't attend.

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I hope he does, and doesn't refuse to attend like Nicola Sturgeon did when invited to the Scottish Affairs Committee at Westminster. She was "busy".

Mark Drakeford has been at Westminster a few times at the Welsh Committee.

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Originally Posted by archie

OK, but there is danger too. Does FM really want to be seen in the same light as Maggie Chapmam? Losing another case doesn’t scream competence. And like it or not, when there is a case that can in any way be linked to the legislation, you can be sure that the finger will be pointed at the Scottish
Government. And allowing the Tories to position themselves as defenders of women's rights!

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Will anyone believe the Tories are the defenders of women though. I think not.

They could always attach the rape clause at the bottom of their leaflets.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Ta.

Is there a mechanism for sanction if he dingies them?

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Don't think so.

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Originally Posted by James310

I hope he does, and doesn't refuse to attend like Nicola Sturgeon did when invited to the Scottish Affairs Committee at Westminster. She was "busy".

Mark Drakeford has been at Westminster a few times at the Welsh Committee.

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You're such a bitch sometimes :greengrin

I hope he attends too, but not for petty party points scoring reasons.

Miaow.

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Originally Posted by James310

I hope he does, and doesn't refuse to attend like Nicola Sturgeon did when invited to the Scottish Affairs Committee at Westminster. She was "busy".

Mark Drakeford has been at Westminster a few times at the Welsh Committee.

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She's deeply entrenched in your every thought. 😂

Any idea where she was? You'll have it in your diary.📒

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Originally Posted by archie

OK, but if I was Starmer I'd take advice from people who actually wanted me to win.

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Unless by some miracle we could have Indy next year, I desperately want Labour to win UK-wide and I think they will. I don't mind if Starmer is centrist but I'm not keen on spineless. Not standing up for the right of Holyrood to pass legislation that's within competence and the lack of or extremely lukewarm support for the unions are both spineless imo. I think he risks looking like a phony and that's about the only way I can see him managing to lose tbh.

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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

Unless by some miracle we could have Indy next year, I desperately want Labour to win UK-wide and I think they will. I don't mind if Starmer is centrist but I'm not keen on spineless. Not standing up for the right of Holyrood to pass legislation that's within competence and the lack of or extremely lukewarm support for the unions are both spineless imo. I think he risks looking like a phony and that's about the only way I can see him managing to lose tbh.

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Agree with regards to the unions. In regards to this legislation will you retract that opinion if the court proves its not legal

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

Will anyone believe the Tories are the defenders of women though. I think not.

They could always attach the rape clause at the bottom of their leaflets.

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And yet because of how this has been approached they have been given the space to do this. Incide, do you know what the 'rape clause' is?

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Agree with regards to the unions. In regards to this legislation will you retract that opinion if the court proves its not legal

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I don’t think it’s legality has been challenged?


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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

She's deeply entrenched in your every thought. 😂

Any idea where she was? You'll have it in your diary.📒

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I suspect the poster was anticipating 'democratic outrage' argument if the SoS didn't attend. FWIW I would attend if I was him. It would give him a platform as a defender of womens rights in the face of attacks from Committee members. Whether that is justified isn't the point. SG actions allow him to frame it that way.