The Trans Rights Debate

You probably don't need to divide golfers by sex, but due to the lack of quality female players, there would be a representation issue which would reduce girls being attracted to the sport.

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Originally Posted by 500miles

You probably don't need to divide golfers by sex, but due to the lack of quality female players, there would be a representation issue which would reduce girls being attracted to the sport.

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Why don’t you need to?

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Originally Posted by 500miles

You probably don't need to divide golfers by sex, but due to the lack of quality female players, there would be a representation issue which would reduce girls being attracted to the sport.

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What lack of quality female players? The quality of the women's game is higher than ever.

I can only assume you're not a golfer/ golfers tho if you think there's no need for separate men's and women's games.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

What lack of quality female players? The quality of the women's game is higher than ever.

I can only assume you're not a golfer/ golfers tho if you think there's no need for separate men's and women's games.

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Are they hitting the same numbers on the same courses as men? If so, there's no reason for segregation. If not, the reason for segregation is quality.

And no, I'm not a golfer, so iam thoroughly enjoying the opportunity to diminish any aspect of it!

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Originally Posted by 500miles

Are they hitting the same numbers on the same courses as men? If so, there's no reason for segregation. If not, the reason for segregation is quality.

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No they can't hit as far from the tee. That's why in tournaments women hit from from front tee men from the back. It's misogyny to say they just aren't skillful enough. Some are unbelievably skillful but will never be able to drive like men

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Originally Posted by 500miles

Are they hitting the same numbers on the same courses as men? If so, there's no reason for segregation. If not, the reason for segregation is quality.

And no, I'm not a golfer, so iam thoroughly enjoying the opportunity to diminish any aspect of it!

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Quality?

It's not that. But then you've conceded you've got an agenda...

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Originally Posted by 500miles

Are they hitting the same numbers on the same courses as men? If so, there's no reason for segregation. If not, the reason for segregation is quality.

And no, I'm not a golfer, so iam thoroughly enjoying the opportunity to diminish any aspect of it!

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No is the answer to your question. As has already been explained the women play shorter courses - or the same courses but from women's tees.

Bemused why you would take pleasure in diminishing a sport you know nothing about. I wouldn't call myself a regular golfer but I've played enough to appreciate the phenomenal skill required to become a top player, male or female.

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Originally Posted by LewysGot2

Along with ageism and sexism…after all she’s “only Andy’s old mum” what right has she to comment on this…

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The comments on Twatter about Judy Murray's views are indicative of the kind of censorship happy, lunatic fringe gone mainstream, extremism with fascist undertones I associate with the more sinister proponents of gender self identification.

If you don't share their views, then you must be transphobic. Which is clearly stereotyping, simplistic and often deeply misogynistic.

https://news-sky-com.cdn.ampproject....ourse-12479539


https://www.golfmonthly.com/features...r-neutral-tees




Sounds like a good idea to encourage new golfers.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

https://news-sky-com.cdn.ampproject....ourse-12479539


https://www.golfmonthly.com/features...r-neutral-tees




Sounds like a good idea to encourage new golfers.

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To the original point if your saying someone like the great Annika Sorenstam never made the cut in the mens game when she tried, is down to lack of skill and not also physical disadvantaged. Then I think your incredibly misogynistic and downplaying the genius of some of the great female golfers

Someone like bryson dechambeau is showing that the game is going away from skill somewhat and you can have an advantage just by being able to blooter it further than the rest

I mentioned on the Gigs thread that I went to see Ezra Furman the other night. The gig is still ringing in my ears, for a few reasons.

I love her music, and her lyrics. That, of course, is subjective, and not everyone will like her. However, what really struck me was her attitude and stage presence. She reminded me of an early David Bowie, when his sexuality was the talk of the classroom. Ezra had a similar feel.... no overkill, just "I'm here. I am being me. Like me or don't like me."

In that light, there were many trans people in the room, most of whom were young. Just as Bowie was an inspiration to young gay men in the early 70's, so Ezra is to young trans men and women now.

Also, there was a feeling of rebellion. She evoked the spirit of Patti Smith, musically and emotionally; indeed, she finished with Because The Night.

Whilst there is belligerence at both polarised extremes of the Trans debate, which will continue no doubt, what the other night reassured me of was that the younger generation have the power and the inclination to increase the tolerance and acceptance of the trans community, just as mine did with LGB rights.

For all those reasons, I left that gig with the broadest smile on my face.

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Originally Posted by 500miles

You probably don't need to divide golfers by sex, but due to the lack of quality female players, there would be a representation issue which would reduce girls being attracted to the sport.

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Do you mean that as female's can't hit the ball as far they are just not up to the male standard?

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Originally Posted by 147lothian

Do you mean that as female's can't hit the ball as far they are just not up to the male standard?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=URz-RYE0aig

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I didn't mean either really, I meant the only reason there would be to split the game is if there is an innate difference in strength which would impact the game, or the pool of female players is comparatively small which tends to lead a lack of quality, which means women would need thier own competitions to ensure they are publicly represented and not swalled up by the much greater number of elite male players. It has been since pointed out that women play smaller courses due to shorter drives which is fair enough, and indicates to me that sex segregation is important.

And also, as someone in the building industry, golf course patter has ruined my life and I shall seek to diminish it at every turn!

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

I mentioned on the Gigs thread that I went to see Ezra Furman the other night. The gig is still ringing in my ears, for a few reasons.

I love her music, and her lyrics. That, of course, is subjective, and not everyone will like her. However, what really struck me was her attitude and stage presence. She reminded me of an early David Bowie, when his sexuality was the talk of the classroom. Ezra had a similar feel.... no overkill, just "I'm here. I am being me. Like me or don't like me."

In that light, there were many trans people in the room, most of whom were young. Just as Bowie was an inspiration to young gay men in the early 70's, so Ezra is to young trans men and women now.

Also, there was a feeling of rebellion. She evoked the spirit of Patti Smith, musically and emotionally; indeed, she finished with Because The Night.

Whilst there is belligerence at both polarised extremes of the Trans debate, which will continue no doubt, what the other night reassured me of was that the younger generation have the power and the inclination to increase the tolerance and acceptance of the trans community, just as mine did with LGB rights.

For all those reasons, I left that gig with the broadest smile on my face.

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That's an interesting post. Music has power to connect people, Anonhi, the artist behind Anthony and the Johnsons, has been directly paving the way for Ezra these past 20 years or more.

In terms of tolerance and acceptance, this thread seems to show that there is a clear recognition of trans rights. However, the tolerance ceases when the extremist fringes of that movement want to trample over the rights of others, namely women. The sinister agenda of misogyny and the anti democratic rhetoric of a lunatic fringe is only serving to undermine the wider cause. What I find heartening is that people on a football forum are well enough informed to see through the nonsense and make clear and reasonable distinctions.

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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

That's an interesting post. Music has power to connect people, Anonhi, the artist behind Anthony and the Johnsons, has been directly paving the way for Ezra these past 20 years or more.

In terms of tolerance and acceptance, this thread seems to show that there is a clear recognition of trans rights. However, the tolerance ceases when the extremist fringes of that movement want to trample over the rights of others, namely women. The sinister agenda of misogyny and the anti democratic rhetoric of a lunatic fringe is only serving to undermine the wider cause. What I find heartening is that people on a football forum are well enough informed to see through the nonsense and make clear and reasonable distinctions.

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Well said, I totally agree, this video shows that many trans people just want to get on with their life's and are not happy about the extremists who say you have to be ok with ruining women's sport and steroids in children or your a transphobe, it's counterproductive to actual trans people.

http://youtu.be/e9SSh4D-nkQ

"I don't find them attractive, they're just confusing."

Alan Partridge.

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Originally Posted by 500miles

I didn't mean either really, I meant the only reason there would be to split the game is if there is an innate difference in strength which would impact the game, or the pool of female players is comparatively small which tends to lead a lack of quality, which means women would need thier own competitions to ensure they are publicly represented and not swalled up by the much greater number of elite male players. It has been since pointed out that women play smaller courses due to shorter drives which is fair enough, and indicates to me that sex segregation is important.

And also, as someone in the building industry, golf course patter has ruined my life and I shall seek to diminish it at every turn!

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I had no idea the building industry was such a hotbed of golf chat. Hard hats and hi-viz vests cast aside on Friday afternoons in a race for the first tee..

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

I mentioned on the Gigs thread that I went to see Ezra Furman the other night. The gig is still ringing in my ears, for a few reasons.

I love her music, and her lyrics. That, of course, is subjective, and not everyone will like her. However, what really struck me was her attitude and stage presence. She reminded me of an early David Bowie, when his sexuality was the talk of the classroom. Ezra had a similar feel.... no overkill, just "I'm here. I am being me. Like me or don't like me."

In that light, there were many trans people in the room, most of whom were young. Just as Bowie was an inspiration to young gay men in the early 70's, so Ezra is to young trans men and women now.

Also, there was a feeling of rebellion. She evoked the spirit of Patti Smith, musically and emotionally; indeed, she finished with Because The Night.

Whilst there is belligerence at both polarised extremes of the Trans debate, which will continue no doubt, what the other night reassured me of was that the younger generation have the power and the inclination to increase the tolerance and acceptance of the trans community, just as mine did with LGB rights.

For all those reasons, I left that gig with the broadest smile on my face.

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Nice post and one that rings true re a lot of the younger generation. I'd say, tho, that there's only one polarised extreme in this debate - unless the likes of JKR and Judy Murray are considered extremists for pointing out biology as a factor.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

I had no idea the building industry was such a hotbed of golf chat. Hard hats and hi-viz vests cast aside on Friday afternoons in race for the first tee..

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You're not kidding. I live near a golf course. On an unexpected sunny day the car park is rammed with workies vans. All called away on an emergency no doubt!

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Originally Posted by He's here!

Nice post and one that rings true re a lot of the younger generation. I'd say, tho, that there's only one polarised extreme in this debate - unless the likes of JKR and Judy Murray are considered extremists for pointing out biology as a factor.

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There is only one polarized extreme in this video and that is clearly the misogynistic men who are beating up women, unless anyone thinks that the women are extremists for campaigning for female spaces to be protected spaces for females only, so that men can't enter?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5DFv8OaYXQI

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...itics-63162533

Nicola Sturgeon: Destroyer of women's rights.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...itics-63162533

Nicola Sturgeon: Destroyer of women's rights.

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Rowling is pipin hoat, pay her no attention


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Originally Posted by He's here!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...itics-63162533

Nicola Sturgeon: Destroyer of women's rights.

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"The proposed new law would make it easier for people to be legally recognised as their preferred gender and broaden the official definition of what it means to be trans.

Anyone aged 16 or over who has lived in their "acquired gender" for at least three months would be eligible to apply.

A medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria would no longer be required, removing the need for doctors' reports.

It remains a hotly contested issue, however, with critics saying "self identification" would undermine the safety of women-only spaces. JK Rowling has previously argued the new law would harm the most vulnerable women.

Ms Rowling tweeted: "I stand in solidarity with @ForWomenScot and all women protesting and speaking outside the Scottish Parliament. #NoToSelfID."

Well said JK Rowling. The forelock tugging, all bowing and scrapping, Sturgeon is making a big error with this pish.

I see transgender hate crimes increased by 56% with social media discussion identified as a factor in the rise. But, aye, well done JK, spot on tweets to your 14 million followers :rolleyes:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc...k-63157965.amp

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Originally Posted by Mr Grieves

I see transgender hate crimes increased by 56% with social media discussion identified as a factor in the rise. But, aye, well done JK, spot on tweets to your 14 million followers :rolleyes:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc...k-63157965.amp

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She's not being anti trans she's being pro women. Women have it tough enough without women's only spaces going, women's sport being compromised and the word woman being erased in many cases. It's a man's world

Do they already have these laws in Ireland? I’m sure I read that somewhere? If so, has there been a decrease in woman’s safety there?


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Do they already have these laws in Ireland? I’m sure I read that somewhere? If so, has there been a decrease in woman’s safety there?


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There's the same debates and demonstrations as here, Irish rugby just banned people born as males from playing with women.

The way I see it as we need to listen to women it's more misogyny to not. In every poll women don't want people born male to be in women's only spaces. Why should men say tough. If the debate was taken away from women only spaces and sport, I think 90% would be on the same page

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Do they already have these laws in Ireland? I’m sure I read that somewhere? If so, has there been a decrease in woman’s safety there?


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They do, as well as 30-odd other countries.

The impact on related violence in those countries doesn't seem to be a major issue on either side of the debate here, although I'm happy to be corrected if I've missed it. As with a lot of similar issues, evidence gets lost in the ideology.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

She's not being anti trans she's being pro women. Women have it tough enough without women's only spaces going, women's sport being compromised and the word woman being erased in many cases. It's a man's world

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So by that logic Sturgeon, a woman btw, is being anti-women?

Shona Robison, another woman btw, is anti-women?

And don't get me started on the irony of a pro-women woman personally attacking another woman.

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Originally Posted by Mr Grieves

So by that logic Sturgeon, a woman btw, is being anti-women?

Shona Robison, another woman btw, is anti-women?

And don't get me started on the irony of a pro-women woman personally attacking another woman.

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It isn't listening to the will of the majority of women. Women like Joanne cherry are bombed from the front if they disagree, so why would they not tow the line.

To be honest we could save the debate and click back either 5 or say 10 pages and it's on repeat. Everyone thinks trans abuse is vile, most want more rights for trans. People are split on female only spaces and sport and that is pretty much it on repeat

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

There's the same debates and demonstrations as here, Irish rugby just banned people born as males from playing with women.

The way I see it as we need to listen to women it's more misogyny to not. In every poll women don't want people born male to be in women's only spaces. Why should men say tough. If the debate was taken away from women only spaces and sport, I think 90% would be on the same page

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It only seems to be on here that women only spaces is at the centre of the debate.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

To be honest we could save the debate and click back either 5 or say 10 pages and it's on repeat. Everyone thinks trans abuse is vile, most want more rights for trans. People are split on female only spaces and sport and that is pretty much it on repeat

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And I still think it’s an issue that the majority of the public ignore and don’t really care about. I doubt there are many votes in it either way.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

And I still think it’s an issue that the majority of the public ignore and don’t really care about. I doubt there are many votes in it either way.


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Most definitely don't. The biggest clash is between trans activists and lesbian and feminist groups.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

And I still think it’s an issue that the majority of the public ignore and don’t really care about. I doubt there are many votes in it either way.


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It's got nothing to do with votes. It's about expressing justifiable concern about a highly contentious piece of legislation - the price the SNP have paid for bringing the toxic Scottish Greens on board for the sake of a majority.

Rowling is putting her considerable clout to good use here to give this issue a much-needed higher profile.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

It isn't listening to the will of the majority of women. .

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Is there evidence of this?

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Originally Posted by He's here!

It's got nothing to do with votes. It's about expressing justifiable concern about a highly contentious piece of legislation - the price the SNP have paid for bringing the toxic Scottish Greens on board for the sake of a majority.

Rowling is putting her considerable clout to good use here to give this issue a much-needed higher profile.

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:top marks

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Originally Posted by Mr Grieves

Is there evidence of this?

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The last two polls show women are split down the middle roughly on whether it should be easier to change. Most oppose the time you have to spend in the other body dropping from 2 years to 6 months. Most oppose them using single sex spaces and playing female sport.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-60214574.amp

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

The last two polls show women are split down the middle roughly on whether it should be easier to change. Most oppose the time you have to spend in the other body dropping from 2 years to 6 months. Most oppose them using single sex spaces and playing female sport.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc...d-60214574.amp

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I don’t think the law on using single sex spaces changes with the GRA?
I agree on sport but I don’t think the GRA deals with this at all? It leaves it to sports bodies?


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

I don’t think the law on using single sex spaces changes with the GRA?
I agree on sport but I don’t think the GRA deals with this at all? It leaves it to sports bodies?


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That's covered by the Equality Act, AIUI.

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Originally Posted by Mr Grieves

So by that logic Sturgeon, a woman btw, is being anti-women?

Shona Robison, another woman btw, is anti-women?

And don't get me started on the irony of a pro-women woman personally attacking another woman.

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What do you think about the irony of a man being the head of a woman only rape crisis centre in Edinburgh ?

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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

What do you think about the irony of a man being the head of a woman only rape crisis centre in Edinburgh ?

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Is that made possible by the GRA?


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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

What do you think about the irony of a man being the head of a woman only rape crisis centre in Edinburgh ?

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This place?


https://www.ercc.scot/welcome-to-mridul-wadhwa-our-new-ceo/

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

This place?


https://www.ercc.scot/welcome-to-mridul-wadhwa-our-new-ceo/

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Yes the one that pushed against allowing females who had been raped, to see a person born a female only. Also said rape survivors should be challenged on their views. Crazy decisions like this distracts from the real issues

The times

THE Scottish Greens have defended the head of a rape crisis centre who said “bigoted” survivors should have their “unacceptable beliefs” challenged as part of their recovery.

Mridul Wadhwa, chief executive of Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre, said people would not truly recover from trauma unless they addressed any prejudices as “therapy is political”.*

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Yes the one that pushed against allowing females who had been raped, to see a person born a female only. Also said rape survivors should be challenged on their views. Crazy decisions like this distracts from the real issues

The times

THE Scottish Greens have defended the head of a rape crisis centre who said “bigoted” survivors should have their “unacceptable beliefs” challenged as part of their recovery.

Mridul Wadhwa, chief executive of Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre, said people would not truly recover from trauma unless they addressed any prejudices as “therapy is political”.*

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So a trans woman, fighting for women and particularly women from ethnic minority groups. All sounds like a good person.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

So a trans woman, fighting for women and particularly women from ethnic minority groups. All sounds like a good person.

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Sorry I need a bit of help here. Is this sarcasm?

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

So a trans woman, fighting for women and particularly women from ethnic minority groups. All sounds like a good person.

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The head of one of Scotland’s biggest rape crisis centres has suggested “bigoted” rape survivors should be re-educated about transgender rights as part of recovering from their trauma.

Mridul Wadhwa, a transgender woman, said people would not truly recover unless they addressed their “unacceptable beliefs” because “therapy is political”.

She said: “We will work with you... but please expect to be challenged on your prejudices."

https://www.heraldscotland.com/polit...-trans-rights/

I suppose it depends on your definition of good. Personally, I found his statement deeply offensive and dangerous



Wadhwa has a long history of securing positions allocated specifically for women, as detailed on The Glinner Update, including doing so deceitfully. Moreover, while working as a manager at the Forth Valley Rape Crisis Centre, Wadhwa participated in an interview in April 2019 with The Student newspaper. When asked if a man could be a successful rape crisis centre manager, Wadhwa answered, with no hint of irony: I don’t think men are ready to go out and set up services of this nature. Women’s aid organisations and rape crisis centres have been set up with the blood, sweat, and tears of women. It’s about the women’s experience of sexual violence. Our workforce is reserved for women only.

https://www.womenarehuman.com/rape-c...to-women-only/

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

So a trans woman, fighting for women and particularly women from ethnic minority groups. All sounds like a good person.

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Fighting against women no. Why would she be bothered if some women want to be seen by a biological woman after they have been raped. They don't need re-educated they need compassion and their wishes met at the worst point in their life

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Fighting against women no. Why would she be bothered if some women want to be seen by a biological woman after they have been raped. They don't need re-educated they need compassion and their wishes met at the worst point in their life

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What if they said they only want to be seen by a white councillor?


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

What if they said they only want to be seen by a white councillor?


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Not in any way comparable, come on to f

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

What if they said they only want to be seen by a white councillor?


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Just to be clear Ozy, are you equating women who have been raped who wish services from women, for personal, trauma, religious or any reason, with racists?

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Not in any way comparable, come on to f

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I know it’s not and I probably would not have hired her for this role but it does highlight the prejudice they face. I think trans women do have to accept that while they do deserve equality of opportunity, there are a tiny amount of jobs that they can’t be considered for. Professional sportswoman and rape crisis councillor could def be two of them.
If she is just the CEO of this organisation and does actually do the council long then I don’t see a problem?
None of this appears to be anything to do with the GRA though?


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

I know it’s not and I probably would not have hired her for this role but it does highlight the prejudice they face. I think trans women do have to accept that while they do deserve equality of opportunity, there are a tiny amount of jobs that they can’t be considered for. Professional sportswoman and rape crisis councillor could def be two of them.
If she is just the CEO of this organisation and does actually do the council long then I don’t see a problem?
None of this appears to be anything to do with the GRA though?


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I think almost everyone would agree with that, well a sizable majority. If its an official pr organisational ect role I don't see the problem. I don't think it's transphobic to say they should have all the freedoms of a woman bar just a couple of caveats.

In trying to focus on principles rather than the noise, I think there is an issue with the definition of 'trans'. I know people who have supported people transitioning. The person concerned was vulnerable and was on a long path to medically transition. I really think the vast majority of people would have no issue with treating them as a woman. But the GRA allows someone as young as 16 to identify as the opposite sex for 3 months, with 3 months colling off. All self IDed. They do have to sign an oath that they will remain as they have chosen, but I think that will be unenforcable. So effectively all a person has to do is say they are a woman to be treated as one. The vagueness that this builds into the system means that someone who has fully transitioned (I mean following drug therapy and surgery) is viewed in exactly the same way as someone who self IDs after three months (plus cooling off) - who may have had no medical intervention whatsoever. I think that's unhelpful to people who fully transition and also blurs the wider issues that will arise.

In addition, there appears to be little consideration for people who are concerned about what this means for them. Ozy implied that people asking for same sex carers were akin to racists. How do you take forward serious policy discusions in that environment?

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

The last two polls show women are split down the middle roughly on whether it should be easier to change. Most oppose the time you have to spend in the other body dropping from 2 years to 6 months. Most oppose them using single sex spaces and playing female sport.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-60214574.amp

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There's 3 questions that get majority support in that article and not one of them backs up your previous point :confused:

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

I don’t think the law on using single sex spaces changes with the GRA?
I agree on sport but I don’t think the GRA deals with this at all? It leaves it to sports bodies?


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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

That's covered by the Equality Act, AIUI.

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:agree:

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Originally Posted by Mr Grieves

There's 3 questions that get majority support in that article and not one of them backs up your previous point :confused:

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The full poll is about 10 pages back and was discussed at the time, there was absout 20 questions. About the only question more women agreed with change was it should be easier. More were against it dropping to 3 months, single sex spaces being removed, the age of change dropping to 16

Uk wide it's similar, tories as you expect want less change than Labour voters. People were much more willing to let people in single sex spaces post surgery, I believe the vast majority don't have surgery though
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2020-07-16/Transgender%20attitudes%20summary-01.png

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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

The head of one of Scotland’s biggest rape crisis centres has suggested “bigoted” rape survivors should be re-educated about transgender rights as part of recovering from their trauma.

Mridul Wadhwa, a transgender woman, said people would not truly recover unless they addressed their “unacceptable beliefs” because “therapy is political”.

She said: “We will work with you... but please expect to be challenged on your prejudices."

https://www.heraldscotland.com/polit...-trans-rights/

I suppose it depends on your definition of good. Personally, I found his statement deeply offensive and dangerous



Wadhwa has a long history of securing positions allocated specifically for women, as detailed on The Glinner Update, including doing so deceitfully. Moreover, while working as a manager at the Forth Valley Rape Crisis Centre, Wadhwa participated in an interview in April 2019 with The Student newspaper. When asked if a man could be a successful rape crisis centre manager, Wadhwa answered, with no hint of irony: I don’t think men are ready to go out and set up services of this nature. Women’s aid organisations and rape crisis centres have been set up with the blood, sweat, and tears of women. It’s about the women’s experience of sexual violence. Our workforce is reserved for women only.

https://www.womenarehuman.com/rape-c...to-women-only/

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Yep, sounds like a good, empathetic person.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by archie

In trying to focus on principles rather than the noise, I think there is an issue with the definition of 'trans'. I know people who have supported people transitioning. The person concerned was vulnerable and was on a long path to medically transition. I really think the vast majority of people would have no issue with treating them as a woman. But the GRA allows someone as young as 16 to identify as the opposite sex for 3 months, with 3 months colling off. All self IDed. They do have to sign an oath that they will remain as they have chosen, but I think that will be unenforcable. So effectively all a person has to do is say they are a woman to be treated as one. The vagueness that this builds into the system means that someone who has fully transitioned (I mean following drug therapy and surgery) is viewed in exactly the same way as someone who self IDs after three months (plus cooling off) - who may have had no medical intervention whatsoever. I think that's unhelpful to people who fully transition and also blurs the wider issues that will arise.

In addition, there appears to be little consideration for people who are concerned about what this means for them. Ozy implied that people asking for same sex carers were akin to racists. How do you take forward serious policy discusions in that environment?

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Excellent post.

Patrick Harvie has previously stated that women who believe sex matters are akin to racists and heads a party whose policy is that anyone who says they are a woman literally is one - something, as you say, that the proposed reform of the GRA will effectively make a legal reality. Like you, the implications of this and the vagueness it builds in concern me a great deal.

I see Nicola Sturgeon has tried to pour cold water on such concerns in response to Rowling's criticism and I suspect she hopes that very vagueness will prevent this issue becoming a hotter potato than it currently is.

A friend of a colleague of mine has just been elected to Brazil's congress as one of its first two transgender members.

http://https://www.reuters.com/world...ss-2022-10-05/

Her v Bolsonaro? :cb

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

A friend of a colleague of mine has just been elected to Brazil's congress as one of its first two transgender members.

http://https://www.reuters.com/world...ss-2022-10-05/

Her v Bolsonaro? :cb

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...or Ballsonaro?

Nicola's a 'real' feminist...not like that pretend one JKR:

'Real feminist' Nicola Sturgeon hits back at JK Rowling | The Spectator

I've looked for some hard figures on this and they don't seem easy to come by so maybe someone on here can point me in the right direction or indeed knows the answer.

Is there a comparable number of people born female/'assigned' female at birth who wish to identify as men or undergo full transition as there is the opposite way around? This seems a debate absolutely dominated by male to female ID and transition and thus a debate about what constitutes a woman. Google seems to throw up considerably more high profile trans women than men, it's perhaps my own ignorance but Elliot Page is the only person I could name of the top of my head.

When accusations of misogyny are thrown about it would be interesting to know if there is an equilibrium around this that isn't represented by the debate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

I've looked for some hard figures on this and they don't seem easy to come by so maybe someone on here can point me in the right direction or indeed knows the answer.

Is there a comparable number of people born female/'assigned' female at birth who wish to identify as men or undergo full transition as there is the opposite way around? This seems a debate absolutely dominated by male to female ID and transition and thus a debate about what constitutes a woman. Google seems to throw up considerably more high profile trans women than men, it's perhaps my own ignorance but Elliot Page is the only person I could name of the top of my head.

When accusations of misogyny are thrown about it would be interesting to know if there is an equilibrium around this that isn't represented by the debate.

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This is the only official document I could find.

https://assets.publishing.service.go...-factsheet.pdf

"How many trans people are there? We don't know". It follows from that that there will be no gender split available.

I would argue that there shouldn't be any figures available. It's no-one's business IMO. That said, I don't know if the Census asks questions like that... anyone?

The noise tells us that it's mainly M-F, and that's my own anecdotal experience. But I doubt that we can know with any certainty.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

I've looked for some hard figures on this and they don't seem easy to come by so maybe someone on here can point me in the right direction or indeed knows the answer.

Is there a comparable number of people born female/'assigned' female at birth who wish to identify as men or undergo full transition as there is the opposite way around? This seems a debate absolutely dominated by male to female ID and transition and thus a debate about what constitutes a woman. Google seems to throw up considerably more high profile trans women than men, it's perhaps my own ignorance but Elliot Page is the only person I could name of the top of my head.

When accusations of misogyny are thrown about it would be interesting to know if there is an equilibrium around this that isn't represented by the debate.

---

I know of a trans man who lives in Fife who is currently going through treatment and is due for top surgery before the end of the year. His name is jude and he was born Amy on the South Coast of England.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by He's here!

Excellent post.

Patrick Harvie has previously stated that women who believe sex matters are akin to racists and heads a party whose policy is that anyone who says they are a woman literally is one - something, as you say, that the proposed reform of the GRA will effectively make a legal reality. Like you, the implications of this and the vagueness it builds in concern me a great deal.

I see Nicola Sturgeon has tried to pour cold water on such concerns in response to Rowling's criticism and I suspect she hopes that very vagueness will prevent this issue becoming a hotter potato than it currently is.

---

The implications for woman's sport and woman's safety have not been thought through in the GRA because what it would mean is that a man can identify as a woman without a doctor's certificate to show that he/she has a mental disorder ie gender dysphoria and enter woman's sport or womans spaces, after three months whereas it would have previously taken two years.

The main reason I think this is a bad idea has nothing to do with actual trans people, it's the way that it could be exploited by men who wish women harm gaining access to woman only spaces where women are vulnerable like prison's etc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URz-RYE0aig

https://twitter.com/holyroodmandy/st...93482806747136

Quote:

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Originally Posted by archie

https://twitter.com/holyroodmandy/st...93482806747136

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That's a well-written piece.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 147lothian

The implications for woman's sport and woman's safety have not been thought through in the GRA because what it would mean is that a man can identify as a woman without a doctor's certificate to show that he/she has a mental disorder ie gender dysphoria and enter woman's sport or womans spaces, after three months whereas it would have previously taken two years.

The main reason I think this is a bad idea has nothing to do with actual trans people, it's the way that it could be exploited by men who wish women harm gaining access to woman only spaces where women are vulnerable like prison's etc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URz-RYE0aig

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I know it's been said a few times on this thread, but it's worth repeating.

The GRA does not impact access to women-only spaces. That is already restricted by the Equality Act.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

I know it's been said a few times on this thread, but it's worth repeating.

The GRA does not impact access to women-only spaces. That is already restricted by the Equality Act.

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But isn't a big concern after the bill you can become a woman much easier, basically after 3 months anyone can become a woman if they choose, so by default they have access to these spaces?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by James310

But isn't a big concern after the bill you can become a woman much easier, basically after 3 months anyone can become a woman if they choose, so by default they have access to these spaces?

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https://www.scottishtrans.org/our-work/gender-recognition-act-reform-2022/gra-faq/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

https://www.scottishtrans.org/our-work/gender-recognition-act-reform-2022/gra-faq/

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Trans activists say it doesn't change the equality act. Feminist groups are saying in the real world, if you can legally change your sex on your passport ect there is no way for a company to check your biological sex

https://fairplayforwomen.com/gra_equality-act/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Trans activists say it doesn't change the equality act. Feminist groups are saying in the real world, if you can legally change your sex on your passport ect there is no way for a company to check your biological sex

https://fairplayforwomen.com/gra_equality-act/

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It also strips out any process that previously was required.

Demi Minor, the transwomen Ie man who identifies as a woman, who got two women pregnant in a woman only prison in New Jersey has been transferred back to a male prison and will be eligible for parole in 2037.

http://nypost.com/2022/08/05/trans-p...ated-two-women

No sure he'll last long as an snp equality officer

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/s...-beat-28189613

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

No sure he'll last long as an snp equality officer

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/s...-beat-28189613

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"An SNP equalities officer has apologised for a series of social media outbursts including one threatening violence against women. In now deleted posts, Cameron Downing, 23, said he wanted to “beat the f*** out of some terfs and transphobes”.

In another, he claimed: “I f****** hate terfs and transphobes with such a passion they make me want to SCREAM!” Terf – meaning trans-exclusionary radical feminist – is a derogatory term used against women who do not recognise the gender identity of trans women.

Downing has been an equalities officer for the SNP’s London branch since August 2022 and previously worked in the same role in 2021. When confronted about the Twitter posts, he said: “I apologise for these tweets and for any offence caused to the LGBTQ+ community and have long since deleted them.”

To think some on here have criticised JK Rowling for her tweets supporting women's rights, the above is an outrageous statement and shows the mentality of some of the bams involved in this self-identification mess

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

I've looked for some hard figures on this and they don't seem easy to come by so maybe someone on here can point me in the right direction or indeed knows the answer.

Is there a comparable number of people born female/'assigned' female at birth who wish to identify as men or undergo full transition as there is the opposite way around? This seems a debate absolutely dominated by male to female ID and transition and thus a debate about what constitutes a woman. Google seems to throw up considerably more high profile trans women than men, it's perhaps my own ignorance but Elliot Page is the only person I could name of the top of my head.

When accusations of misogyny are thrown about it would be interesting to know if there is an equilibrium around this that isn't represented by the debate.

---

I would imagine they are much higher than most people would think. It's natural to have a unconscious stereotype or bias on what comes to mind when thinking of transgender people. I reckon we've all probably interacted with a good number of trans people, regularly, without realising it. Many trans people just want to get on with their life without being put under the microscope or being thrust on stage.

Terms like people with a cervix isn't meant to alienate women from birth but instead be inclusive to transmen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KWJ

I would imagine they are much higher than most people would think. It's natural to have a unconscious stereotype or bias on what comes to mind when thinking of transgender people. I reckon we've all probably interacted with a good number of trans people, regularly, without realising it. Many trans people just want to get on with their life without being put under the microscope or being thrust on stage.

Terms like people with a cervix isn't meant to alienate women from birth but instead be inclusive to transmen.

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Without wishing to state the obvious, how about just calling them women?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

Without wishing to state the obvious, how about just calling them women?

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Because if you say all women require cervical screening you're not including everybody who requires cervical screening.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KWJ

Because if you say all women require cervical screening you're not including everybody who requires cervical screening.

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I think the 0.001% of the population will realise they still need to go. There is so little you could target them individually, rather than delete the word woman from use

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

I think the 0.001% of the population will realise they still need to go. There is so little you could target them individually, rather than delete the word woman from use

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Using another term either instead of or alongside woman, is a far cry from deleting it from use. Not that it'd be appropriate even if it was such a small number but it'll be a helluva lot more than that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KWJ

Using another term either instead of or alongside woman, is a far cry from deleting it from use. Not that it'd be appropriate even if it was such a small number but it'll be a helluva lot more than that.

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Using a term instead is deleting it. Men and people with cervixes isn't men and women. But the point still stands, I'm sure they know they need to still go for cervix screening. If they don't something has gone wrong with the information they are given

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KWJ

Because if you say all women require cervical screening you're not including everybody who requires cervical screening.

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I'm tired so perhaps missing the obvious, but who else has a cervix aside from woman?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

I'm tired so perhaps missing the obvious, but who else has a cervix aside from woman?

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Trans men and non-binary people who haven't had their cervix removed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Using a term instead is deleting it. Men and people with cervixes isn't men and women. But the point still stands, I'm sure they know they need to still go for cervix screening. If they don't something has gone wrong with the information they are given

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Apologies, I missed saying another or additional term with woman for this instance, isn't deleting it. I think everyone who requires screening of whatever kind is probably aware they should get it but it's good for everyone to receive that general reminder and how important it can be, and through a variety of communication methods.

"Men and people with cervixes isn't men and women"

Obviously, but why complicate it by saying women and/or people with cervixes?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Trans men and non-binary people who haven't had their cervix removed.

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This doesn't get away from the fact that sex is binary. That there are only two sexes, men and woman and that it is only women that require cervical screening tests.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 147lothian

This doesn't get away from the fact that sex is binary. That there are only two sexes, men and woman and that it is only women that require cervical screening tests.

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Well, that's the whole debate isn't it. You don't believe or acknowledge transgender or non-binary while others will say you can identify differently to the gender you were assigned at birth.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KWJ

Well, that's the whole debate isn't it. You don't believe or acknowledge transgender or non-binary while others will say you can identify differently to the gender you were assigned at birth.

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People can identify as they like. This doesn't get away from the fact that it is only woman who require cervical screening tests. As in adult human female. A woman is not an identity category to be picked up and put down as you see fit, it's a reality of biological sex.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Trans men and non-binary people who haven't had their cervix removed.

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So, mostly people who self-identify (as I assume people who have actually had surgery will have had the cervix and womb removed, alongside other vestiges of their former gender) or people who prefer not to acknowledge gender, but who have cervix's?

In the circumstances, I feel the use of the term "women" is very much preferable to any other.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

So, mostly people who self-identify (as I assume people who have actually had surgery will have had the cervix and womb removed, alongside other vestiges of their former gender) or people who prefer not to acknowledge gender, but who have cervix's?

In the circumstances, I feel the use of the term "women" is very much preferable to any other.

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It's not really related but I was ****ed off recently when I went to an appointment with my wife and son and the doctor kept referring to me as the 2nd parent and occasionally co parent.

Firstly I'm my son's dad, secondly I'm not a 2nd parent. Both my wife and I are active in our children's upbringing in a variety of ways. I get that assumptions are off the table now but just ****ing ask people what they want to be called. Is it really all that perjorative to ask someone do you want to be referred to as mother, father or a co parent? Or simply 'what's your relationship to the child?' In the grand scheme of things it's not that big a deal but it seems in an attempt to be inclusive there's an inadvertent consequence that sees people who just want to be dad not called as such. I'm sure my view is grossly heteronormative or something but sorry I'm a dad and would rather just be called as such.

By the way I have no issue with children being raised with 2 mums, 2 dad's, non binary parents, a single parent, co habiting co parents or just about any other arrangement but it's not my situation so just establish that and act accordingly rather than use daft terms like '2nd parent'.

Person with a Cervix? Is that honestly a real expression?


:rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KWJ

Well, that's the whole debate isn't it. You don't believe or acknowledge transgender or non-binary while others will say you can identify differently to the gender you were assigned at birth.

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Alternatively 'observed at birth'!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by archie

Alternatively 'observed at birth'!

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Yeah, that's surely a much more accurate description.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

"An SNP equalities officer has apologised for a series of social media outbursts including one threatening violence against women. In now deleted posts, Cameron Downing, 23, said he wanted to “beat the f*** out of some terfs and transphobes”.

In another, he claimed: “I f****** hate terfs and transphobes with such a passion they make me want to SCREAM!” Terf – meaning trans-exclusionary radical feminist – is a derogatory term used against women who do not recognise the gender identity of trans women.

Downing has been an equalities officer for the SNP’s London branch since August 2022 and previously worked in the same role in 2021. When confronted about the Twitter posts, he said: “I apologise for these tweets and for any offence caused to the LGBTQ+ community and have long since deleted them.”

To think some on here have criticised JK Rowling for her tweets supporting women's rights, the above is an outrageous statement and shows the mentality of some of the bams involved in this self-identification mess

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That's not accurate from the DR. Men can be TERFs as well, as you don't need to be female to be a feminist

Quote:

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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

So, mostly people who self-identify (as I assume people who have actually had surgery will have had the cervix and womb removed, alongside other vestiges of their former gender) or people who prefer not to acknowledge gender, but who have cervix's?

In the circumstances, I feel the use of the term "women" is very much preferable to any other.

---

My friend Jude is intending to have top surgery but is not decided on lower body surgery. He will therefore still have a cervix

Quote:

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Originally Posted by archie

Alternatively 'observed at birth'!

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Well spotted, observed at birth is the reality of what happens, the biological sex of a baby is observed and recorded, no one flips a coin.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 147lothian

Well spotted, observed at birth is the reality of what happens, the biological sex of a baby is observed and recorded, no one flips a coin.

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The biological sex never changes, its just how people define themselves. Personally think people can define themselves as they like.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

My friend Jude is intending to have top surgery but is not decided on lower body surgery. He will therefore still have a cervix

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I've read this six times now and I'm still not sure what's going on 🙃

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hibby Bairn

I've read this six times now and I'm still not sure what's going on 🙃

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He's getting rid of his boobs, but keeping downstairs lady parts

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hibby rae

That's not accurate from the DR. Men can be TERFs as well, as you don't need to be female to be a feminist

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Considering the context of the discussion, I'm more concerned at the level of aggression in a person appointed by the SNP as an equalities officer than the semantics of the Record's definition of TERf or your views on who can and can't be a feminist.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

It's not really related but I was ****ed off recently when I went to an appointment with my wife and son and the doctor kept referring to me as the 2nd parent and occasionally co parent.

Firstly I'm my son's dad, secondly I'm not a 2nd parent. Both my wife and I are active in our children's upbringing in a variety of ways. I get that assumptions are off the table now but just ****ing ask people what they want to be called. Is it really all that perjorative to ask someone do you want to be referred to as mother, father or a co parent? Or simply 'what's your relationship to the child?' In the grand scheme of things it's not that big a deal but it seems in an attempt to be inclusive there's an inadvertent consequence that sees people who just want to be dad not called as such. I'm sure my view is grossly heteronormative or something but sorry I'm a dad and would rather just be called as such.

By the way I have no issue with children being raised with 2 mums, 2 dad's, non binary parents, a single parent, co habiting co parents or just about any other arrangement but it's not my situation so just establish that and act accordingly rather than use daft terms like '2nd parent'.

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A dad's a dad for aw that.

Assumptions can be clarified as you say, by a simple question. He shakes his heid in despair. I fear it just gives more ammunition for the bigots who exploit this stuff for all they can.