General election 2019

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Originally Posted by CloudSquall

Latest YouGov poll, a bit of a squeese starting on Nigel and Jo,

CON: 42% (+3)
LAB: 28% (+2)
LDEM: 15% (-2)
BREX: 4% (-6)
GRN: 4% (-)

via @YouGov[COLOR=#14171A], 11 - 12 Nov
Chgs. w/ 08 Nov.[/CA

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Another poll shows the Tories only 5 points ahead. I would discount any poll in the express and the mail. The questions they ask are loaded to make Johnson seem popular.The likes of Aaron banks wouldn't be asking farage to only stand in a few marginals if the Tories were home and dry. The ridiculous Keir starmer video and the massive demonisation of Corbyn shows the Tories know its a lot tighter than the polls are predicting. May had an average lead of 16 points ahead at roughly this time and Johnson is averaging 10. It's not an election where you can read into poll results and predict the no of seats. I'd love Johnson to miss a majority by ten or so and the dup will lose around 4 seats meaning the blond buffoon wouldn't be able to form a govt. John curtice has again stated the lib Dems will far outperform their current polls. We shall see. If it's about brexit he won't win a majority.

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Originally Posted by southsider

For YES to win indyRef2 we need to attract older people imho. How much would free TV licences for all pensioners cost. Not that much in the grand scheme of things I would suggest.

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Ireland paid something in the region of £21 million in 2013. Not sure what the costs are these days.

The BBC raises hundreds of millions in, Scotland.

Free licences for all might be a better way to go. 👍

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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

They’re also nailing on losing indyref2.

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I think the rest of the UK is slowly but surely coming round to that idea anyway and are in the very early stages of planning for it. The mood music seems to me to be heading in that direction.

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Originally Posted by Frankhfc

I think the rest of the UK is slowly but surely coming round to that idea anyway and are in the very early stages of planning for it. The mood music seems to me to be heading in that direction.

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The attitude of England towards Scottish independence will be very different in indyref2. It will move from bemusement last time out to ‘just F off’ next time.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

The attitude of England towards Scottish independence will be very different in indyref2. It will move from bemusement last time out to ‘just F off’ next time.


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There'll be a wide range of views across the rest of the UK but I do agree that in general more people would be inclined to shrug their shoulders and could be much more receptive for Scotland leaving the UK and to go its own way next time around.

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

Ireland paid something in the region of £21 million in 2013. Not sure what the costs are these days.

The BBC raises hundreds of millions in, Scotland.

Free licences for all might be a better way to go. 👍

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Also, why would old folk bother about the age you get your pension? Surely that's of more interest to those who are yet to reach that age than those who are already in, those who might be happier to pull the ladder up once there and have more folk contributing to their pensions?

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Originally Posted by Smartie

Also, why would old folk bother about the age you get your pension? Surely that's of more interest to those who are yet to reach that age than those who are already in, those who might be happier to pull the ladder up once there and have more folk contributing to their pensions?

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Those, like myself, born in the 60s baby boom are now arriving at a stage in life where retirement isn't just something that happens to other people.

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Originally Posted by Peevemor

Those, like myself, born in the 60s baby boom are now arriving at a stage in life where retirement isn't just something that happens to other people.

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I appreciate that, so I can understand why the age at which you receive your pension will be an emotive subject for your demographic (a demographic who admittedly the SNP have failed to convince so far).

Your demographic is a different one to the one I was thinking of - those who are already pensioners - who are overwhelmingly against independence. We might need to come up with a different bribe for them.......

It is interesting that going by age, those who will likely to have to spend a long time "paying in" are more convinced in the merits of independence than those who are either currently receiving or soon to be receiving.

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Originally Posted by Smartie

I appreciate that, so I can understand why the age at which you receive your pension will be an emotive subject for your demographic (a demographic who admittedly the SNP have failed to convince so far).

Your demographic is a different one to the one I was thinking of - those who are already pensioners - who are overwhelmingly against independence. We might need to come up with a different bribe for them.......

It is interesting that going by age, those who will likely to have to spend a long time "paying in" are more convinced in the merits of independence than those who are either currently receiving or soon to be receiving.

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The offer to bring all Scottish pensions up to the average level of EU pensions should convince those already receiving their pensions.
It’s a flat out bribe but we know we can afford it if the political will is there.


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Lib Dem candidate stands down in Canterbury (a Labour-Tory marginal) so Swinson says they'll just stand someone else, effectively guaranteeing a Tory gain.

They are not on the side of Remain and anyone who thinks they are is kidding themselves.

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Originally Posted by Diclonius

Lib Dem candidate stands down in Canterbury (a Labour-Tory marginal) so Swinson says they'll just stand someone else, effectively guaranteeing a Tory gain.

They are not on the side of Remain and anyone who thinks they are is kidding themselves.

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As I said earlier, why should they do it if Labour won’t do the same?


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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

Ireland paid something in the region of £21 million in 2013. Not sure what the costs are these days.

The BBC raises hundreds of millions in, Scotland.

Free licences for all might be a better way to go. 👍

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Or make BBC subscription only.

There’s plenty of free to air TV for the biddies.

Might change the audience focus for QT!!!

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Originally Posted by Diclonius

Lib Dem candidate stands down in Canterbury (a Labour-Tory marginal) so Swinson says they'll just stand someone else, effectively guaranteeing a Tory gain.

They are not on the side of Remain and anyone who thinks they are is kidding themselves.

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Labour need to reciprocate but they won’t. It’s one way traffic

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Originally Posted by Colr

Labour need to reciprocate but they won’t. It’s one way traffic

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Yeah, fair enough.

See Corbyn gets called a terrorist sympathiser by some pathetic little minister in Scotstoun. Wonder if he will be on the next orange walk ?

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Originally Posted by southsider

See Corbyn gets called a terrorist sympathiser by some pathetic little minister in Scotstoun. Wonder if he will be on the next orange walk ?

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Nice guy.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...74163e6fe4.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...6d91d1024f.jpg


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

As I said earlier, why should they do it if Labour won’t do the same?


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I'm in general very uncomfortable with any party that stands down their candidates to give another party a free run. Its entirely undemocratic in my opinion by denying voters the right to choose and I'm passionate remainer.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Nice guy.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...74163e6fe4.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...6d91d1024f.jpg


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Thanks for putting that up. Like a wee sad man that was on late call.

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Originally Posted by Frankhfc

I'm in general very uncomfortable with any party that stands down their candidates to give another party a free run. Its entirely undemocratic in my opinion by denying voters the right to choose and I'm passionate remainer.

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Me as well mate, I'm extremely uncomfortable with stuff like tactical voting and parties refusing to stand .....the option should be to vote for what you stand for, not against what you dont. But when you have a first past the post system its an open door to that happening. I doubt pure PR will ever fly, but a system like we have for the Scottish parliament might, at least in that system every vote matters.

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Originally Posted by southsider

See Corbyn gets called a terrorist sympathiser by some pathetic little minister in Scotstoun. Wonder if he will be on the next orange walk ?

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Saw that as well .... Mind you, when the prime minister does exactly the same thing in parliament is it any wonder our own dafties copy him.

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Originally Posted by Frankhfc

I'm in general very uncomfortable with any party that stands down their candidates to give another party a free run. Its entirely undemocratic in my opinion by denying voters the right to choose and I'm passionate remainer.

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It’s not quite a free run as it will still be a two horse race. I can see the merit in it if you feel that another candidate has similar views to yours and he has a better chance of winning.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

It’s not quite a free run as it will still be a two horse race. I can see the merit in it if you feel that another candidate has similar views to yours and he has a better chance of winning.


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True. I could have worded it slightly better in the form of 'standing down to increase the electoral prospects of a different parties candidate' instead.

I'm very uncomfortable with it but its only my opinion and you're obviously entitled to yours too Oz. It makes for decent debate.

:aok:

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Originally Posted by NAE NOOKIE

Me as well mate, I'm extremely uncomfortable with stuff like tactical voting and parties refusing to stand .....the option should be to vote for what you stand for, not against what you dont. But when you have a first past the post system its an open door to that happening. I doubt pure PR will ever fly, but a system like we have for the Scottish parliament might, at least in that system every vote matters.

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I agree with most of this.

I'm not so sure about the electoral systems part though as I've never really given it any thought but I'm sure you're point on it isn't without merit.

:aok:

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

The offer to bring all Scottish pensions up to the average level of EU pensions should convince those already receiving their pensions.
It’s a flat out bribe but we know we can afford it if the political will is there.


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Politics is all about bribes though isnt it. Nothing appeals to voters more than pandering to their self interest ... sadly.

A wee bit about different forms of proportional representation as it may be used in a UK wide election. Quite a long twitter thread.


Today in "Ballot Box Scotland talks about Proportional Representation, because it's a travesty that the UK doesn't use it when the other 3 Scottish elections do", what might PR constituencies for Scotland at Westminster look like?



https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1194637623224152064?s=19

SNP pushing for legal action against ITV regarding their exclusion. Like the Lib Dems, i'm not really sure what legal grounds they'll have here. But there must be something if they're pursuing it.

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

SNP pushing for legal action against ITV regarding their exclusion. Like the Lib Dems, i'm not really sure what legal grounds they'll have here. But there must be something if they're pursuing it.

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Parallel transmissions. Why should people in Scotland have to listen to English parties manifestos/ideas.

They do have Scottish branch offices don't they. 😉

I see Corbyn was heckled in Scotland today and called a 'terrorist sympathiser'. You can bet your last penny the clown responsible is one of our loyalist friends. Perhaps we could compare the history of the heckler with those of Corbyn in relation to terrorist sympathies and unsavoury views? It isn't difficult to guess the attitudes of radges in Scotland who shout this kind of stuff. Nice try, Billy boy.

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Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba

I see Corbyn was heckled in Scotland today and called a 'terrorist sympathiser'. You can bet your last penny the clown responsible is one of our loyalist friends. Perhaps we could compare the history of the heckler with those of Corbyn in relation to terrorist sympathies and unsavoury views? It isn't difficult to guess the attitudes of radges in Scotland who shout this kind of stuff. Nice try, Billy boy.

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Another "right-wing conservative christian". Because the bible teaches that god favours the selfish. :aok:

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Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba

I see Corbyn was heckled in Scotland today and called a 'terrorist sympathiser'. You can bet your last penny the clown responsible is one of our loyalist friends. Perhaps we could compare the history of the heckler with those of Corbyn in relation to terrorist sympathies and unsavoury views? It isn't difficult to guess the attitudes of radges in Scotland who shout this kind of stuff. Nice try, Billy boy.

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Oh wow. You could see it a mile off:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50405032

That BBC Scottish Conservative broadcast :faf:

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

Parallel transmissions. Why should people in Scotland have to listen to English parties manifestos/ideas.

They do have Scottish branch offices don't they. 😉

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The SNP stand a good chance of holding the balance of power at Westminster so people in England should be able to hear what they stand for.

They might also be able to offer a few words from Scotland about how to run a parliament!!

Maybe even propose a take over!

Corbyn now claiming that the First Minister told him that she would never help him get into power.
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/sta...83810585174016

Funny.... I'm pretty sure it was Corbyn who came up here to tell us that the SNP couldn't play it's part in forming the next UK Government.... :confused:

What a shambles of a leader Corbyn is:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...itics-50397033

If his Brexit policy wasn't muddled enough, his stance on Scottish independence changes with the wind. He deserves to take a pasting at the polls.

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

Corbyn now claiming that the First Minister told him that she would never help him get into power.
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/sta...83810585174016

Funny.... I'm pretty sure it was Corbyn who came up here to tell us that the SNP couldn't play it's part in forming the next UK Government.... :confused:

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Sensible move to burn your bridges with the one party which might help you into power eh?

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Originally Posted by G B Young

What a shambles of a leader Corbyn is:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...itics-50397033

If his Brexit policy wasn't muddled enough, his stance on Scottish independence changes with the wind. He deserves to take a pasting at the polls.

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To the benefit of whom, Boris Johnson?

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Originally Posted by G B Young

He deserves to take a pasting at the polls.

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As much as his actions anger me. I care too much about public services and the wellbeing of the general public to want Boris (in bed with Russia) Johnson to better him.

Saying that you think Corbyn deserves a pasting at the polls (which he does) is different actually wanting it to happen(I certainly don't, although I suspect G B Young does).

The LibDems over performing, wiping the floor with the shameful Labour and Tories but needing a helpful hand from the landslide-emboldened SNP to get into power would do me just nicely.

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

Corbyn now claiming that the First Minister told him that she would never help him get into power.
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/sta...83810585174016

Funny.... I'm pretty sure it was Corbyn who came up here to tell us that the SNP couldn't play it's part in forming the next UK Government.... :confused:

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Strong stuff said there from Corbyn regarding the Snp and the Tories. I quite like Corbyn whose heart seems to be in the right place but it seems obvious he's doing badly in the polls and by condemning the Snp he's hoping to win back some of his core vote in the North of England who don't fancy indyref 2. I think he's on a downward spiral unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by Frankhfc

Strong stuff said there from Corbyn regarding the Snp and the Tories. I quite like Corbyn whose heart seems to be in the right place but it seems obvious he's doing badly in the polls and by condemning the Snp he's hoping to win back some of his core vote in the North of England who don't fancy indyref 2. I think he's on a downward spiral unfortunately.

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WTF has Indyref2 got to do with Core Northern England Labour voters?

J

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Originally Posted by Frankhfc

Strong stuff said there from Corbyn regarding the Snp and the Tories. I quite like Corbyn whose heart seems to be in the right place but it seems obvious he's doing badly in the polls and by condemning the Snp he's hoping to win back some of his core vote in the North of England who don't fancy indyref 2. I think he's on a downward spiral unfortunately.

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The progressive parties cutting each others' throats will only help Bozo and the hard Brexiteers. They need to play it smart, as the Tories and Brexit Party have. Work together to beat the Tories and create a fresh start at home and in Europe. The bigger picture requires the defeat of economic neoliberalism and political intolerance. That's how we improve society.

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Originally Posted by Bristolhibby

WTF has Indyref2 got to do with Core Northern England Labour voters?

J

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They possibly don't want a hard border between the two nations separating them from family and friends?

why is christine jardine spreading this sh*t, i'd love her and that snidey snake carmichael to get emptied

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.n...d3&oe=5E50ADF4

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Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba

The progressive parties cutting each others' throats will only help Bozo and the hard Brexiteers. They need to play it smart, as the Tories and Brexit Party have. Work together to beat the Tories and create a fresh start at home and in Europe. The bigger picture requires the defeat of economic neoliberalism and political intolerance. That's how we improve society.

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I agree. I think Corbyn's playing to his home crowd with his recent comments.

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Originally Posted by cabbageandribs1875

why is christine jardine spreading this sh*t, i'd love her and that snidey snake carmichael to get emptied

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.n...d3&oe=5E50ADF4

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How long would it take for an indy Scotland to get into the EU?

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Originally Posted by Slavers

How long would it take for an indy Scotland to get into the EU?

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Not long, I have a feeling the EU would rush it through pretty quickly to noise up Boris and co to be honest

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Originally Posted by Slavers

How long would it take for an indy Scotland to get into the EU?

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a couple of months :wink: if that long

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Originally Posted by Mon Dieu4

Not long, I have a feeling the EU would rush it through pretty quickly to noise up Boris and co to be honest

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There's a great deal of sympathy for Scotland's position within the EU community... not to mention the hefty increase in tariffs they'd have to pay for their whisky, which would concentrate a few minds :wink:

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Originally Posted by cabbageandribs1875

a couple of months :wink: if that long

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Do you not think your being slightly optimistic? Keep in mind that all 27 nations need to agree?

Does Scotland not need to meet a list of criteria before it is allowed to join?

Do we meet them all yet?

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Originally Posted by Jack Hackett

There's a great deal of sympathy for Scotland's position within the EU community... not to mention the hefty increase in tariffs they'd have to pay for their whisky, which would concentrate a few minds :wink:

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Im sure there is sympathy but it's a heck of a leap to say we'd be allowed to join in months?

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Originally Posted by Slavers

Do you not think your being slightly optimistic? Keep in mind that all 27 nations need to agree?

Does Scotland not need to meet a list of criteria before it is allowed to join?

Do we meet them all yet?

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Nope. Geographically they would be delighted to have us as we have access to the North Atlantic. We are the EU largest oil producer as well, which is still a big deal even as we head to a carbon free future. Scotland would be an absolute shoe in to be welcomed into the EU.


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Originally Posted by Slavers

Does Scotland not need to meet a list of criteria before it is allowed to join?

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Yes we'd 100% definitely have to adopt the Euro.
Or not, if we didn't fancy it.

Boris getting the dead cat out again.

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Originally Posted by Diclonius

Boris getting the dead cat out again.

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This post intrigues me.

I don't get it....

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Nope. Geographically they would be delighted to have us as we have access to the North Atlantic. We are the EU largest oil producer as well, which is still a big deal even as we head to a carbon free future. Scotland would be an absolute shoe in to be welcomed into the EU.


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What if one nation decided no if we allow Scotland to join it may encourage an Independence movement within their country.

Macron of France recently vetoed North Macedonia and Albania from joining.

With that in mind, surely it is possible that one of the 27 nations could veto Scotland joining?

That is a possibility surely?

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Originally Posted by Slavers

What if one nation decided no if we allow Scotland to join it may encourage an Independence movement within their country.

Macron of France recently vetoed North Macedonia and Albania from joining.

With that in mind, surely it is possible that one of the 27 nations could veto Scotland joining?

That is a possibility surely?

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Do you honestly believe Scotland is on par with Albania and North Macedonia?

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Originally Posted by Smartie

Saying that you think Corbyn deserves a pasting at the polls (which he does) is different actually wanting it to happen(I certainly don't, although I suspect G B Young does).

The LibDems over performing, wiping the floor with the shameful Labour and Tories but needing a helpful hand from the landslide-emboldened SNP to get into power would do me just nicely.

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I must say that would be an amusing scenario - and who knows, is it beyond the realms of possibility? I've always got the impression that Corbyn's inept leadership may be primarily down to the fact he's simply a bit dim. Today's gaffe on his party's Scottish independence policy certainly adds fuel to that impression. To get it so wrong is mind-boggling and his subsequent fudge just makes him look plain daft. As for then tweeting about the SNP ushering the Tories into power, what does he hope to achieve with that?! Sheer petulance at being made to look silly.

Corbyn has never given the impression he 'gets' Scotland at all and I find it hard to see Labour under his leadership ever regaining any sort of foothold here. They may even lose the handful of seats they managed to scrape together at the last election.

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Originally Posted by CloudSquall

Do you honestly believe Scotland is on par with Albania and North Macedonia?

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Erm I hope your not adopting a supremist mindset. I'm sure the people of North Macedonia and Albania are very proud of their nations and do not feel inferior to anyone.

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Originally Posted by Slavers

Do you not think your being slightly optimistic? Keep in mind that all 27 nations need to agree?

Does Scotland not need to meet a list of criteria before it is allowed to join?

Do we meet them all yet?

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https://youtu.be/eQzm0FXXerM

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Originally Posted by Slavers

Do you not think your being slightly optimistic? Keep in mind that all 27 nations need to agree?

Does Scotland not need to meet a list of criteria before it is allowed to join?

Do we meet them all yet?

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Scotland can't meet the criteria as part of the UK. As even the UK technically doesn't meet the criteria, although that's never been a problem.

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Originally Posted by Slavers

Erm I hope your not adopting a supremist mindset.

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Why not? Wouldn't that just be very 'British' of us?

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

Why not? Wouldn't that just be very 'British' of us?

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Well it would be very hypocritical.

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Originally Posted by Diclonius

Boris getting the dead cat out again.

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Originally Posted by Smartie

This post intrigues me.

I don't get it....

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Rumour is he's enjoyed a lot of pussy.:wink:

Another embarrassing defeat for the UK Government by the court - https://www.theguardian.com/society/...er-bedroom-tax

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Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba

Oh wow. You could see it a mile off:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50405032

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Corbyn wouldn’t even speak to him. His scarf is tartan ffs, any ****er should be able to take some nutter to task on that kind of comment.

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Originally Posted by Slavers

Erm I hope your not adopting a supremist mindset. I'm sure the people of North Macedonia and Albania are very proud of their nations and do not feel inferior to anyone.

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The difference is that Scotland, abit tutu the UK, is a long standing member of the EU. Would the 27 throw us out if England/Wales left or would they give us, the same rights as NI until full membership came thru. Never heard of any Nation being expelled from EU.

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Originally Posted by southsider

The difference is that Scotland, abit tutu the UK, is a long standing member of the EU. Would the 27 throw us out if England/Wales left or would they give us, the same rights as NI until full membership came thru. Never heard of any Nation being expelled from EU.

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We would sail into the EU because we already meet all the criteria for entry.


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You have to laugh that the argument has gone from "Scotland might lose EU membership" to "Scotland won't get back in to the EU now we've dragged them out".

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Originally Posted by Slavers

Erm I hope your not adopting a supremist mindset. I'm sure the people of North Macedonia and Albania are very proud of their nations and do not feel inferior to anyone.

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In terms of EU membership I'd put us far above Albania and North Macedonia in terms of suitability.

If Scotland becomes independent and then applies for EU membership again then surely the terms of any agreement would need to put back to the people. This will take years so I can’t see Scotland joined the EU anytime soon. It would also lead to a hard border with a England.

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Originally Posted by lucky

If Scotland becomes independent and then applies for EU membership again then surely the terms of any agreement would need to put back to the people. This will take years so I can’t see Scotland joined the EU anytime soon. It would also lead to a hard border with a England.

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Depends if the UK ends up with a hard border with the EU. That’s not at all certain yet.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...355707d3b1.png


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BBC Reality Check

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-50406110

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Originally Posted by lucky

If Scotland becomes independent and then applies for EU membership again then surely the terms of any agreement would need to put back to the people. This will take years so I can’t see Scotland joined the EU anytime soon. It would also lead to a hard border with a England.

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Why would they gave to be put back to the people, if we know what the terms are in advance?

Wouldn't England really have made an arse of it if they were completely surrounded by hard borders?

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Originally Posted by Cataplana

Why would they gave to be put back to the people, if we know what the terms are in advance?

Wouldn't England really have made an arse of it if they were completely surrounded by hard borders?

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In my opinion independence is more likely to happen in the next five years than not. However, there will most definitely be extremely hard negotiations to encounter between not just ruk but also the EU as to budget deficits, currency convergence etc etc etc.

Also on your point regarding England and hard borders, it would no longer be our business whatever England would in the future decide as we would be on our own direction of travel both politically and ideologically post independence.

Its easy to spin biased opinions on both sides of the argument, however, I think there should also be a spoken reality with grown up debate as to the pragmatic aftermath. The songs of freedom will only reverberate for so long before the dust would settle on the new independent Scotland and the verity of the situation at hand.

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Originally Posted by Slavers

They possibly don't want a hard border between the two nations separating them from family and friends?

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If such a border ever comes into being its not going to have searchlights and barbed wire, it will be a normal international border just like any other .. my friends daughter lives in Australia and I cant recall her or her daughter moaning about having to cross a hard border when they visit each other, or having any problem doing so.

The way some folk go on you would think a day after independence the Scottish or UK government will start building something akin to the Berlin wall with me and my 3 brothers on one side waving our tear stained hankies at our brother who lives in England on the other hoping that some day we will see each other again. Given the number of people on both sides of the border with family on the other side the truth is that both Scotland and the rump UK will move heaven and earth to make movement between the two ( at least of people ) as frictionless as possible.

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Originally Posted by Frankhfc

In my opinion independence is more likely to happen in the next five years than not. However, there will most definitely be extremely hard negotiations to encounter between not just ruk but also the EU as to budget deficits, currency convergence etc etc etc.

Also on your point regarding England and hard borders, it would no longer be our business whatever England would in the future decide as we would be on our own direction of travel both politically and ideologically post independence.

Its easy to spin biased opinions on both sides of the argument, however, I think there should also be a spoken reality with grown up debate as to the pragmatic aftermath. The songs of freedom will only reverberate for so long before the dust would settle on the new independent Scotland and the verity of the situation at hand.

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Notwithstanding your vaguely insulting "songs of freedom" soundbite, I agree.

There's no getting around it (haha), a hard border with rUK is likely to be a significant economic problem. To be clear, I expect the border to end up looking like the Swiss-EU one. Individuals cross freely but lorries carrying goods require paperwork and inspections. This will be a significant economic drag on trade with rUK. In the longer term, Scottish exporters need to target the EU and further afield. Even if Scotland stayed in the UK, it will be a declining, diminishing market to sell into. We need to go on the same journey Ireland has, reduce our dependency on one other country's economic performance.

As regards negotiation for EU membership, the picture is much clearer. Scotland will most probably have to commit in theory to joining the Eurozone but in practice, the EU is in no rush to take new Euro members anyway and they have stated via Juncker, the commission president, that they won't force any of the existing 7 EU countries who are not in the Euro but are theoretically committed to join (Sweden since 1995!)

I think the overwhelming likelihood is that Scotland would join the EEA and Customs Union immediately (as Norway, Sweden, Austria and Finland did), pending ratification of full membership. In the case of the 4 countries mentioned, they all joined the EEA on its creation in 1992 and 3 of the 4 joined as full members 2 years later. Norway chose not to.

The whole things resolved round engerland not wanting any more immigrants and the downright lies like Turkey is going to be a member and there will be 15 million Turks waiting at the border. That and the Ted bus were just lies but if u say the same thing over and over it become a FACT. We up here are not so dumb.

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Originally Posted by NAE NOOKIE

If such a border ever comes into being its not going to have searchlights and barbed wire, it will be a normal international border just like any other .. my friends daughter lives in Australia and I cant recall her or her daughter moaning about having to cross a hard border when they visit each other, or having any problem doing so.

The way some folk go on you would think a day after independence the Scottish or UK government will start building something akin to the Berlin wall with me and my 3 brothers on one side waving our tear stained hankies at our brother who lives in England on the other hoping that some day we will see each other again. Given the number of people on both sides of the border with family on the other side the truth is that both Scotland and the rump UK will move heaven and earth to make movement between the two ( at least of people ) as frictionless as possible.

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The key is the length of time we can keep our legislation in line with the EU.

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Originally Posted by Cataplana

The key is the length of time we can keep our legislation in line with the EU.

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Anything that is devolved is not a problem, anything that is reserved can be made to remain in line with legislation at holyrood fairly quickly if the will of the parliament is there.


I worked within the 3 levels of legislation, the EU law was the umbrella legislation, this was embedded in the UK law and finally the Scottish legislation, which was stronger than the UK law.

A new version of Chicken Run


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/elec...ost_type=share

The article says it was cancelled on the advice of the police. Presumably they didn't have the manpower.

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Scottish NHS comes out top again.


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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

Notwithstanding your vaguely insulting "songs of freedom" soundbite, I agree.

There's no getting around it (haha), a hard border with rUK is likely to be a significant economic problem. To be clear, I expect the border to end up looking like the Swiss-EU one. Individuals cross freely but lorries carrying goods require paperwork and inspections. This will be a significant economic drag on trade with rUK. In the longer term, Scottish exporters need to target the EU and further afield. Even if Scotland stayed in the UK, it will be a declining, diminishing market to sell into. We need to go on the same journey Ireland has, reduce our dependency on one other country's economic performance.

As regards negotiation for EU membership, the picture is much clearer. Scotland will most probably have to commit in theory to joining the Eurozone but in practice, the EU is in no rush to take new Euro members anyway and they have stated via Juncker, the commission president, that they won't force any of the existing 7 EU countries who are not in the Euro but are theoretically committed to join (Sweden since 1995!)

I think the overwhelming likelihood is that Scotland would join the EEA and Customs Union immediately (as Norway, Sweden, Austria and Finland did), pending ratification of full membership. In the case of the 4 countries mentioned, they all joined the EEA on its creation in 1992 and 3 of the 4 joined as full members 2 years later. Norway chose not to.

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Good post.

I genuinely didn't mean to sound at all insulting re songs of freedom :aok:. It was simply a reference pointing out the fact that after the expected exuberance of gaining independence that it could very well usher in a period of instability and a need for cool calm heads until the instability settles down and we can see how the picture then looks. What I cannot be bothered with and tend to ignore is those of any side who make outlandish predictions that cannot be substantiated. Of course there will be turbulence and some chaos post independence, however, I think independence will happen within the next 5 years or so.

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Originally Posted by lucky

If Scotland becomes independent and then applies for EU membership again then surely the terms of any agreement would need to put back to the people. This will take years so I can’t see Scotland joined the EU anytime soon. It would also lead to a hard border with a England.

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Not necessarily, first government in IScotland could run on a mandate of “we will get membership ASAP”. No need for a Plebicite.

J

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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

Notwithstanding your vaguely insulting "songs of freedom" soundbite, I agree.

There's no getting around it (haha), a hard border with rUK is likely to be a significant economic problem. To be clear, I expect the border to end up looking like the Swiss-EU one. Individuals cross freely but lorries carrying goods require paperwork and inspections. This will be a significant economic drag on trade with rUK. In the longer term, Scottish exporters need to target the EU and further afield. Even if Scotland stayed in the UK, it will be a declining, diminishing market to sell into. We need to go on the same journey Ireland has, reduce our dependency on one other country's economic performance.

As regards negotiation for EU membership, the picture is much clearer. Scotland will most probably have to commit in theory to joining the Eurozone but in practice, the EU is in no rush to take new Euro members anyway and they have stated via Juncker, the commission president, that they won't force any of the existing 7 EU countries who are not in the Euro but are theoretically committed to join (Sweden since 1995!)

I think the overwhelming likelihood is that Scotland would join the EEA and Customs Union immediately (as Norway, Sweden, Austria and Finland did), pending ratification of full membership. In the case of the 4 countries mentioned, they all joined the EEA on its creation in 1992 and 3 of the 4 joined as full members 2 years later. Norway chose not to.

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Not all the time they don't, I can say from personal experience.

work has already started on the border :greengrin

Attachment 22697

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...2ffa29e791.jpg
Scottish NHS comes out top again.


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Boris might lose the right to run the english NHS

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Originally Posted by lucky

If Scotland becomes independent and then applies for EU membership again then surely the terms of any agreement would need to put back to the people. This will take years so I can’t see Scotland joined the EU anytime soon.

Why would it?


It would also lead to a hard border with a England.

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This is far from a certainty.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...eba8c82e92.jpg
https://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/201...es-in.html?m=1



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Labour offering free internet for all. :hilarious

You just have to hand all your wages over to them and you're sorted. :aok:

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

Labour offering free internet for all. :hilarious

You just have to hand all your wages over to them and you're sorted. :aok:

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More private property getting confiscated. Feel sorry for all the people who have pension funds that might have invested in BT.


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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

Labour offering free internet for all. :hilarious

You just have to hand all your wages over to them and you're sorted. :aok:

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Sounds like the Barnett formula.

The Plusnet formula.

J

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...2ffa29e791.jpg
Scottish NHS comes out top again.


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And yet time after time when both Tory and Labour supporters / MPs trot out their 'get on with the day job' mantra the first thing they do is mention the difficulties of the NHS in Scotland, where nurses are better paid and our waiting times are better than Tory run England or Labour run Wales.

Being best of a bad bunch isnt exactly something to bum about ... but it certainly doesnt give the rest any right to point out your flaws ... but then why let the truth get in the way of a hypocrisy the BBC and unionist press wont pull you up on.

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Originally Posted by NAE NOOKIE

And yet time after time when both Tory and Labour supporters / MPs trot out their 'get on with the day job' mantra the first thing they do is mention the difficulties of the NHS in Scotland, where nurses are better paid and our waiting times are better than Tory run England or Labour run Wales.

Being best of a bad bunch isnt exactly something to bum about ... but it certainly doesnt give the rest any right to point out your flaws ... but then why let the truth get in the way of a hypocrisy the BBC and unionist press wont pull you up on.

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As has been said before and it would be good if it was acknowledged........

Scotland is missing its targets. It is failing, by the standards it sets itself. To repeat, the standards the SNP government set itself. Failing. Consistently and constantly.

The fact it might be less worse than Wales will be little comfort to you or I or our children, parents or grandparents. When we need treatment we aren’t exactly going to be fussed if it is late but slightly quicker than somebody in Aberystwyth or Wrexham.

Maybe SG should just pony up and explain why they continually break their own law on treatment times and why they miss all their targets, rather than saying, “...Yeah, we are failing, but we aren’t failing as badly yet as England and Wales”.

I mean really, is that we are reduced to?

Or just set targets we can meet.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Or just set targets we can meet.


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That is up to the SNP government.

You have to question the guile or competence if they are setting targets that continually get missed.

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

As has been said before and it would be good if it was acknowledged........

Scotland is missing its targets. It is failing, by the standards it sets itself. To repeat, the standards the SNP government set itself. Failing. Consistently and constantly.

The fact it might be less worse than Wales will be little comfort to you or I or our children, parents or grandparents. When we need treatment we aren’t exactly going to be fussed if it is late but slightly quicker than somebody in Aberystwyth or Wrexham.

Maybe SG should just pony up and explain why they continually break their own law on treatment times and why they miss all their targets, rather than saying, “...Yeah, we are failing, but we aren’t failing as badly yet as England and Wales”.

I mean really, is that we are reduced to?

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Less worse than Wales. Even less worse than England.... and even less worse still than Northern Ireland.

If the targets were being hit in Scotland, the targets would be getting set even higher and unionists would be complaining about those targets not being hit either. The purpose of them is to push the Scottish NHS to it's absolute best. The SNP could quite easily lower the target to 90% and rub it in to the rest of the UK. But that's not why they set targets in Scotland.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Or just set targets we can meet.

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If they set targets that are being met, people would be asking them why they aren't setting the targets even higher. Lowering the target could also make things worse. Better to get 91-92% with a 95% target than 86-87% with a 90% target. By setting targets that are just about impossible to hit, it gets the very best out of the service.