Share Transfers Agreed/Cooling off period

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Originally Posted by Www1875hfc

Is a grade A Penicuik Hearts t**t. :agree:

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Brian is okay to be honest - absolute sook towards players, especially Hearts players. I nearly boked into my hands when I heard him gushing over David Templeton this season just before he was about to do some post game interviews - to be fair to Templeton he couldn't get away from him quick enough. Added to that his dress sense is in keeping with being a Hearts fan and is rather hideous.

He's also piled on the timber this year - clearly Yogi and Fat Jim aren't inviting him to cosy wee golf rounds as often these days.

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Originally Posted by truehibernian

Brian is okay to be honest - absolute sook towards players, especially Hearts players. I nearly boked into my hands when I heard him gushing over David Templeton this season just before he was about to do some post game interviews - to be fair to Templeton he couldn't get away from him quick enough. Added to that his dress sense is in keeping with being a Hearts fan and is rather hideous.

He's also piled on the timber this year - clearly Yogi and Fat Jim aren't inviting him to cosy wee golf rounds as often these days.

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And all of this makes him OK?
I agree with 1875. He's a twat,

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Originally Posted by Hamilton Handling

And all of this makes him OK?
I agree with 1875. He's a twat,

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Having met him aye he is okay HH - however he has the obvious failings. Hearts fan being at the top of that list :-)

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Originally Posted by Caversham Green

Right, a couple of observations here:

First of all, the club is worth nothing because debts exceed assets and it has been trading at a loss for many years. That means the yams are being asked to pay for nothing but, as truehibernian says it's an emotional thing so they can be part of their club - fair play there.

This carries the same flaws as the proposed Sevco share issue - a permanent capital injection for transient benefit. The money will be used for annual costs such as wages and once it runs out they have to find more money for the next lot of expenses. Keep issuing shares and they dilute the value from an investment point of view so they can expect diminishing returns. From the emotional point of view the fans are just being asked to pay more for their football - it's not much different from putting ticket prices up.

They should issue a prospectus - presumably that's what the leaflet will be. Should be interesting reading.

The numbers don't really add up. They expect to raise £1.79m from the sale of shares at 11p each - that's just under 19.7m shares. There are currently just under 147m shares in issue (nominal value 10p each) so assuming it's a new share issue that would be nearly 12% of the club rather than the 10% they claim (they do say over 10% but I would have expected them to use the 12% figure).

If it's Mr Romanov selling his shares as Brian McLauchlin suggests, the money will go to Mr Romanov, not the club.

Finally (for now) a phrase that stands out for me is "a potential opportunity for the Board to test the willingness of supporters to get involved". If the issue fails (this time or in the future) Mr Romanov has every right to say "Well I gave them the chance to save their club, but they weren't interested." More than a hint of a threat there.

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CAV if it's a new share issue would there be a need for the issue to be underwritten? Can't see any one taking this on.

I assume Hearts are privately held so what's the rules around this type of sale? Seems to me they are offering shares at a totally inflated price as they are effectively worthless....is there not some sort of investor protection to stop this happening....I.e the prospectus will surely be misrepresentative of the business and therefore a fraudulent offering?

There wasn't £1.79m offered by any investors a few years back when the Pieman had them on the brink which was why Vlad stepped in. If they couldnt raise it then in such dire circumstances how do they think they will raise it now when a meaningless 10% of the issued shares are up for grabs and all you get is a nice Certificate and a cup of tea at the AGM.

Dire mismanagement from Vlad, with no transparency and communication to the fans over the last 6 years on how the club is run and not a dicky bird over the non payment of wages fiasco yet he expects them to bail him out? Really looks like last throw of the dice stuff.

Share issue for short term working capital !! Tick Tock.

Any Hearts fan buying into this will be making an emotional investment and I don't think for a minute that they will expect any real return for their money other than the forlorn hope that they may be able to postpone the inevitable doomsday scenario.

I'm sure there'll be an obvious answer to this that i just don't know but if it's just effectively a donation for a few shares that in the bigger scheme of things won't mean anything but could potentially raise a decent amount of money what is the disadvantage to Hibs doing something similar?

Although it won't fix any long term issues that Hearts have, it sounds like it won't do any harm so on the face of it to a daftie like me it doesn't seem a bad idea?

Can someone educate me please :greengrin

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Originally Posted by bingo70

I'm sure there'll be an obvious answer to this that i just don't know but if it's just effectively a donation for a few shares that in the bigger scheme of things won't mean anything but could potentially raise a decent amount of money what is the disadvantage to Hibs doing something similar?

Although it won't fix any long term issues that Hearts have, it sounds like it won't do any harm so on the face of it to a daftie like me it doesn't seem a bad idea?

Can someone educate me please :greengrin

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Of course raising more cash isnt a bad thing however as someone else said above, issuing shares for short term working capital is a pretty alarming sign. Not to mention they are worthless shares.

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Originally Posted by Desperate Dan

Fat pishy controller :agree:

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Jesus Christ!

8500 ST sales but a while back they were well on course for 10,000.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/f...ticket-1131811

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Originally Posted by Capt Mainwaring

There wasn't £1.79m offered by any investors a few years back when the Pieman had them on the brink which was why Vlad stepped in. If they couldnt raise it then in such dire circumstances how do they think they will raise it now when a meaningless 10% of the issued shares are up for grabs and all you get is a nice Certificate and a cup of tea at the AGM.

.

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...in which case, it would be a better deal than we get!!!! :rolleyes:

If the Jamtards come up short on this asking price they are Donald.

Curious that again the media seem not to be asking any pertinent questions...

Club in massive debt, owner publicly stating he won't give them another penny, failed to pay their players on time two months running, now going to the fans with a begging bowl for cash.

There should surely be stories questioning their chances for survival? Once again the failings of those masquerading as journalists in Scottish football come to the fore. It'd be great if they could ask BBC Scotland's financial correspondent what his views on the situation could be, as I bet they'd be much more interesting than whatever Hearts fan they've got spinning a positive yarn on this latest lurch towards the grave...

Tell all the Hearts you know,
They're skint, and they just need a bowl.

Attachment 8763

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Originally Posted by ScottB

'd be great if they could ask BBC Scotland's financial correspondent what his views on the situation could be...

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Nah. Alex Thomson is required.

Chances are the BBC's Scottish financial correspondent has dipped his toes in Jambo Succulent lamb sauce at some point, even if it's just toadying to Salmond and the rest of that ilk (i.e. all Scottish politicians.)

Someone should tweet Alex Thomson to see if he's interested.

Story still has develop though. Maybe a Scottish Journo is ready to point out the schemes dodginess. It's hardly soup to nuts that Hawrts are toiling going from their inability to find money to pay players on time, an incident which prompted the LRT driver bloke who manages them to claim it was the worst crisis at the club since the 70's, to asking their paying customers to stump up an extra 1.7M Squids per annum - and apparently they will be asked for this every year for a while if this enterprise is successful, which I'm sure it will (:rolleyes:).

I reckon the late, great and frequently pished Scottish football writer John Fairgreave will finally get his wish for his beloved Jambos, if you know what I mean.

I wonder if the Save our Hearts campaign that sprang up when Robinson was going to flog the PBS to Cala will be reformed.

I seem to remember one guy was going to sell his house and put the proceeds into the fund. To bad for Vlad there's not much demand for single-ends with outside toilets in today's market.

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Originally Posted by Kato

Nah. Alex Thomson is required.

Chances are the BBC's Scottish financial correspondent has dipped his toes in Jambo Succulent lamb sauce at some point, even if it's just toadying to Salmond and the rest of that ilk (i.e. all Scottish politicians.)

Someone should tweet Alex Thomson to see if he's interested.

Story still has develop though. Maybe a Scottish Journo is ready to point out the schemes dodginess. It's hardly soup to nuts that Hawrts are toiling going from their inability to find money to pay players on time, an incident which prompted the LRT driver bloke who manages them to claim it was the worst crisis at the club since the 70's, to asking their paying customers to stump up an extra 1.7M Squids per annum - and apparently they will be asked for this every year for a while if this enterprise is successful, which I'm sure it will (:rolleyes:).

I reckon the late, great and frequently pished Scottish football writer John Fairgreave will finally get his wish for his beloved Jambos, if you know what I mean.

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Never, in the field of football banter, was so much written, with so little meaning

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Originally Posted by greenginger

Save our Hearts campaign

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Were they not the cats who attacked the Hearts team bus?

They attacked their own team bus, honestly they are the biggest morons around.

They will be bragging about "fan ownership" or somesuch for the next two months and raise about 50 bob. Sad barstewards really.

I'm struggling to see how this works though as reported.

If Vlad is selling his shares, what guarantee is there that he'll actually hand over the cash to the club?

If the club is creating new shares to sell, then presumably the club gets the money straight away, but then also what stops Vlad trousering that money straight away for interest payments or any other excuse he decides is worth using...

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Originally Posted by ScottB

I'm struggling to see how this works though as reported.

If Vlad is selling his shares, what guarantee is there that he'll actually hand over the cash to the club?

If the club is creating new shares to sell, then presumably the club gets the money straight away, but then also what stops Vlad trousering that money straight away for interest payments or any other excuse he decides is worth using...

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If Vlad is selling his shares, then he gets the money - it wont go near the club.

He must be completed rooked if he's trying to get 2 million.

When you buy a share do you actually get a bit paper saying something like you own 1 share in hertz, if so can we all buy 1 each to take to that dump on the 3rd, hold them up while singing 'we ****ing own you'.
Then in unison, burn them all?

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Originally Posted by NotoriousLor

When you buy a share do you actually get a bit paper saying something like you own 1 share in hertz, if so can we all buy 1 each to take to that dump on the 3rd, hold them up while singing 'we ****ing own you'.
Then in unison, burn them all?

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Great idea, you do get a certificate but I cannae see you getting anywhere near that tinderbox wi a match :greengrin

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Originally Posted by NotoriousLor

When you buy a share do you actually get a bit paper saying something like you own 1 share in hertz, if so can we all buy 1 each to take to that dump on the 3rd, hold them up while singing 'we ****ing own you'.
Then in unison, burn them all?

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Time for some photoshopping by some of our in-house guru's I think :agree:

Remember the Vlad bank note?

:aok:

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Originally Posted by jonty

If Vlad is selling his shares, then he gets the money - it wont go near the club.

He must be completed rooked if he's trying to get 2 million.

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He's got an Alumina Smelter to save, at least it made a profit for UBIG one year unlike the PBS money-drain.

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Originally Posted by comfortablynumb

Never, in the field of football banter, was so much written, with so little meaning

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Why thank you.:wink:

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Originally Posted by NotoriousLor

When you buy a share do you actually get a bit paper saying something like you own 1 share in hertz, if so can we all buy 1 each to take to that dump on the 3rd, hold them up while singing 'we ****ing own you'.
Then in unison, burn them all?

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Minimum purchase is 909 shares for £100.

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Originally Posted by Jim44

Minimum purchase is 909 shares for £100.

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Think we can all chip in though?

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Originally Posted by Jonnyboy

Time for some photoshopping by some of our in-house guru's I think :agree:

Remember the Vlad bank note?

:aok:

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The Vlad Bank notes simply must come back!

If we do the shares thing, let's Photoshop them, not give them money!

If we get a shot of what one of their shares looks like, I can fake it...

Spoke to a couple of jambos tonight who are actually going to buy shares. Yes that's right buy shares in an insolvent company owned by a shady madman.

Emotional attachment or not any potential 'investors' should be sectioned. How much time would 1.7m buy them with the money they hemorrhage on a monthly basis?

Deck chairs on the Titanic and all that.

As Im walking round Disney can someone do a quick summary of events so I can inform any passing yams.

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Originally Posted by ScottB

The Vlad Bank notes simply must come back!

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http://markkidley.com/vladcash/

They never went away. :wink:

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Originally Posted by Hibby70

As Im walking round Disney can someone do a quick summary of events so I can inform any passing yams.

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Never seen such a 'hey guys, by the way i'm on holiday and you're not' post in my life, lol :na na:

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Originally Posted by wee_hibee

http://oi50.tinypic.com/2yozqk5.jpg

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Lol

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Originally Posted by NotoriousLor

Never seen such a 'hey guys, by the way i'm on holiday and you're not' post in my life, lol :na na:

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Lol

Have spent the evening deliberating and discussing the options for Hearts with a number of supporters from both Hibs and other clubs. After a lot of discussion the general feeling is that they are ****ed. Vlad is looking to raise what he can and it is only a matter of time before the fat lady starts to sing.

Soon we shall start hearing about how all Hearts fans were duped, they didn't know what was going on. So after years of employing child molesters, employing people they couldn't afford, going around being a "big club", buying cups, winning the Champions Leagues, there is only one thing to say to these sub human species. Switch the light out on the way out. You won't be missed.

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Originally Posted by WarringtonHibee

http://markkidley.com/vladcash/

They never went away. :wink:

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Haha glorious. Simply glorious. :D

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Originally Posted by Kato

If the Jamtards come up short on this asking price they are Donald.

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These 4 players are the main earners; Zaliukas - 7k per week; Webster/Driver 5k each and Taouil 3k per week.
There's just over £1m per annum right there - if they raise funds it will go towards wages for the rest of this
season and some or all of the above may be emptied in Jan or season-end.
The outgoing wage costs will be brought down to be more in line with income and the club will be self-sufficient.
As said before Vlad has no intention of selling the club but he will endeavour to use it now for his own benefits
in whatever fashion he can.

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Originally Posted by SiMar

CAV if it's a new share issue would there be a need for the issue to be underwritten? Can't see any one taking this on.

I assume Hearts are privately held so what's the rules around this type of sale? Seems to me they are offering shares at a totally inflated price as they are effectively worthless....is there not some sort of investor protection to stop this happening....I.e the prospectus will surely be misrepresentative of the business and therefore a fraudulent offering?

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There's no need for it to be underwritten as there's not a minimum finance target. For example if they were building a new stand and needed £51m the issue would need to be underwritten to ensure enough capital was raised to fund the project but this is just an attempt to squeeze as much cash out of the suckers as they can.

Hearts are still a plc and I would describe this sale as an offer to the public (assuming it's a new issue) so I think the prospectus will have to be fairly clear on what the yams are getting for their money. I would expect it to be heavy on the emotional aspect with a rider in the small print about the lack of real value. On reflection, tomorrow's leaflet might just be inviting interest, with the full prospectus being issued to those who apply.

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Originally Posted by alexedwards

These 4 players are the main earners; Zaliukas - 7k per week; Webster/Driver 5k each and Taouil 3k per week.
There's just over £1m per annum right there - if they raise funds it will go towards wages for the rest of this
season and some or all of the above may be emptied in Jan or season-end.
The outgoing wage costs will be brought down to be more in line with income and the club will be self-sufficient.
As said before Vlad has no intention of selling the club but he will endeavour to use it now for his own benefits
in whatever fashion he can.

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Thier problem is that their staff costs for 11 months was over £8m with turnover for the same period (but covering a full season) was under £7m. With other costs coming in at £5m+ they're still nowhere near self-sufficient.

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Originally Posted by Caversham Green

There's no need for it to be underwritten as there's not a minimum finance target. For example if they were building a new stand and needed £51m the issue would need to be underwritten to ensure enough capital was raised to fund the project but this is just an attempt to squeeze as much cash out of the suckers as they can.

Hearts are still a plc and I would describe this sale as an offer to the public (assuming it's a new issue) so I think the prospectus will have to be fairly clear on what the yams are getting for their money. I would expect it to be heavy on the emotional aspect with a rider in the small print about the lack of real value. On reflection, tomorrow's leaflet might just be inviting interest, with the full prospectus being issued to those who apply.

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All the legal advice, glossy leaflet printing, and the rest won't be cheap. What's the chances they will spend more than they will take-in ?

There must be a fair section of the support think ignoring this con.trick will lead to a Vlad free future as he would be forced to sell up to any bidder as he must know by now Yams and profit are two words that can never appear in the same sentence.

Bottom line is the Jambo fans are being asked to stump up money Vlad is no longer prepared to supply at no cost to him whatsoever. This is probably because his "empire" is in trouble, as I infer from the Bosnian steelworks going into meltdown.

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Originally Posted by alexedwards

These 4 players are the main earners; Zaliukas - 7k per week; Webster/Driver 5k each and Taouil 3k per week.
There's just over £1m per annum right there - if they raise funds it will go towards wages for the rest of this
season and some or all of the above may be emptied in Jan or season-end.
The outgoing wage costs will be brought down to be more in line with income and the club will be self-sufficient.
As said before Vlad has no intention of selling the club but he will endeavour to use it now for his own benefits
in whatever fashion he can.

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Reckon there's add ons that take some of those numbers a lot
higher. Barr would also be on fair whack, as is Sutton, even Jamie Macdonald's on about 5k.

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Originally Posted by Hibby70

As Im walking round Disney can someone do a quick summary of events so I can inform any passing yams.

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I imagine that at some point you will see a few symbolic clues, for example you are bound to see a giant cartoon duck waddling its way round Disneyland - there are many on here who believe the Yammish are soon to be Donald Ducked as a result of the amazing opportunity they are being given to buy shares in their club (or acquire sone of Vlads paper debt in exchange for cash money) if not I am sure you are bound to see Mickey Mouse........................I could go on :greengrin:wink:

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Originally Posted by RicheyWhite

Reckon there's add ons that take some of those numbers a lot
higher. Barr would also be on fair whack, as is Button, even Jamie Macdonald's on about 5k.

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for that reason alone, they deserve to go bust.

Fascinatingly when you look at their appeal for £1.79m then, given their rate of expenditure in the last published accounts which was £15.204m (income of £6.915m (less than us!) plus "debt forgiveness" of £8.8m with £511k "profit" already deducted) and remember that this was over a period of 11 months (334 days) means that their "share issue", fully subscribed, will not even last them 6 weeks (just under40 days). They will undoubtedly point to their "cost cutting" which has been going on for years with zero impact on their bank balance.

And some folk still think they are not going bump? They are already dead they are just too thick to notice.

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Originally Posted by RicheyWhite

Reckon there's add ons that take some of those numbers a lot
higher. Barr would also be on fair whack, as is Button, even Jamie Macdonald's on about 5k.

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Its no wonder that players still choose to go to hearts after their well publicised wage delays. Theres no other club in britain that would give a ***** keeper like macdonald 5k a week. It might be late most of the time but i'd be willing to put up with that if I was getting payed so much more than I was worth

Surely it should be 999 shares for £100!!! And 8,500 season tickets is unbelievable coming right after their best result in history. If roles had been reversed I'm sure we would have been well into 5 figures & it appears they would have been lucky to sell 5K!! big team my erchie!!
PS, they won't even be the big team to go bust, their role models already won that prize!

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Originally Posted by JAY-ME

Its no wonder that players still choose to go to hearts after their well publicised wage delays. Theres no other club in britain that would give a ***** keeper like macdonald 5k a week. It might be late most of the time but i'd be willing to put up with that if I was getting payed so much more than I was worth

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No disrespect to OP but I doubt very much if Jamie Mac is on half of £5K a week. Kello et al were let go precisely because they were on those wages, JM was very much the cheap option.

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Originally Posted by brog

No disrespect to OP but I doubt very much if Jamie Mac is on half of £5K a week. Kello et al were let go precisely because they were on those wages, JM was very much the cheap option.

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or even less than half :agree: 5K someones havin a larf

"If this first share offer is successful we believe that future proposals could be considered that may eventually allow for Hearts supporters to take over the club entirely."

This is a 10% issue, so based on this the club is valued at £18m .. by who?
Would a fan takeover only need 51% of the shares? Can't see Romanov hanging around to be told what to do, so who would buy out his 49% (of a company up to its eyes in debt)?

So it's either a short term fix ..
.. or around 10,000 fans need to pay £200 a year for the next 10 years to own a club that is, on paper, worthless.


"Every pound raised by supporters, after costs, will be reinvested into the club"

Every pound raised by supporters will go towards this seasons "debt forgiveness" figure.


Looks to me like Vlad has caught on to what is happening at Ibrox and thought to himself that if The Rangers fans are daft enough to buy into it, why not Hearts ones as well.

Their shares will have small print like Green Shield Stamps. Cash value equivalent 0.00001p.

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Originally Posted by StevieC

"If this first share offer is successful we believe that future proposals could be considered that may eventually allow for Hearts supporters to take over the club entirely."

This is a 10% issue, so based on this the club is valued at £18m .. by who?
Would a fan takeover only need 51% of the shares? Can't see Romanov hanging around to be told what to do, so who would buy out his 49% (of a company up to its eyes in debt)?

So it's either a short term fix ..
.. or around 10,000 fans need to pay £200 a year for the next 10 years to own a club that is, on paper, worthless.

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Yes but 400,000 fans paying £100 could do it much quicker!

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Originally Posted by StevieC

"Every pound raised by supporters, after costs, will be reinvested into the club"

Every pound raised by supporters will go towards this seasons "debt forgiveness" figure.

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The bit in bold is the key phrase :wink:

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Originally Posted by cabbageandribs1875

or even less than half :agree: 5K someones havin a larf

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No reason to dispute it. Would say all variations on wages there would likely be subject to other bonuses that could escalate basic wages quite a bit.

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Originally Posted by Jonnyboy

Time for some photoshopping by some of our in-house guru's I think :agree:

Remember the Vlad bank note?

:aok:

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I'm taking the credit for that idea!!

Certainly cannot take credit for the fantastic notes that were produced! Astounding piece of photoshoppery!!

Stuart bathgate in the scotsman suggests the yams AREN'T strapped or they'd have raised money in a different way. He doesn't attempt to explain non payment of wages. Is he another yam tool?

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Originally Posted by clerriehibs

Stuart bathgate in the scotsman suggests the yams AREN'T strapped or they'd have raised money in a different way. He doesn't attempt to explain non payment of wages. Is he another yam tool?

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Him and BAnderson are as yammish as you can get, and will kiss Vlad's arse all day long.

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Originally Posted by clerriehibs

Stuart bathgate in the scotsman suggests the yams AREN'T strapped or they'd have raised money in a different way. He doesn't attempt to explain non payment of wages. Is he another yam tool?

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It may all have been a ploy to concentrate the Yam minds ahead of Vlad's fantastic share offer. Plenty free publicity.:agree:

So, for £1.79M you get a 10% share in a company that's losing money hand over fist, with a debt of £25M and assets worth maybe half of that.

**** me, that's desperate. :rolleyes:

On what planet is the £1.79M not enough to own the whole thing many times over? :confused:

Think Stevie hit the nail on the head above, they've seen the NewHuns thing attracting interest from mug Huns and thought, wait a minute ...

Provided you take on the debt you could buy Hearts for a pound right now but if you want 10% of Hearts the price is £1.79m.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Provided you take on the debt you could buy Hearts for a pound right now but if you want 10% of Hearts the price is £1.79m.

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Ha ha that so true. ... :greengrin

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2...ill?CMP=twt_gu

:fenlon

@mrewanmurray: Hearts to face Revenue & Customs in tribunal over £1.75m tax bill http://t.co/gK08AVBf via @guardian

Sorry if already been talked about

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Originally Posted by Pedantic_Hibee

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2...ill?CMP=twt_gu

:fenlon

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:greengrin 'mon the tax man :agree:

Just saw this article on Twitter. 1.75m tax bill. 1.79m share issue.

As they say in the states. Go figure!

#maroonsevco

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Originally Posted by Desperate Dan

:greengrin 'mon the tax man :agree:

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Rudi's away and the tax man cometh.

Just need a good result tonight for the perfect Friday.

:pfgwa

The obvious question to ask !

What was on the contracts registered with the SPL and SFA.

A couple of Scottish Cup wins down the toilet me thinks. :greengrin :greengrin :greengrin

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Originally Posted by Pedantic_Hibee

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2...ill?CMP=twt_gu

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Hearts have launched a share programme, in which they will be seeking £1.79m from supporters in exchange for a 10% stake in the club; Tynecastle insiders are adamant the close proximity of that figure to the tax issue (£1.75m) is purely coincidental.

Oh ma sides :hahaha::titanic:

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Originally Posted by greenginger

The obvious question to ask !

What was on the contracts registered with the SPL and SFA.

A couple of Scottish Cup wins down the toilet me thinks. :greengrin :greengrin :greengrin

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I'm not so sure.

It is conceivable that the correct wages were declared on the contracts lodged with the SFA and SPL. ..... whilst not operating PAYE properly on those wages, which seems to be the crux of the HMRC case.

We can hope, though. :cb

have fun haha
http://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/index....175m-tax-bill/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2...ill?CMP=twt_gu


Coincidence that this is the same figure they aim to raise from selling their shares..........hmmmm......... perhaps their fans really are as stupid as people think......!


:bye:

:faf:

Got to say though if they step up and save their club all credit to them. Won't happen though.

Sorry, just noticed this is also on the "doomsday/yams screwed" thread............ it is delicious though!

How can their wage bill be 7 million? They must be hoping they can make it through the season to get rid of all the high earners.

A few frees in the window I think.

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Originally Posted by JoeTortolanoFanClub

Hearts have launched a share programme, in which they will be seeking £1.79m from supporters in exchange for a 10% stake in the club; Tynecastle insiders are adamant the close proximity of that figure to the tax issue (£1.75m) is purely coincidental.

Oh ma sides :hahaha::titanic:

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:faf:

Interesting :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Mon Dieu4

have fun haha
http://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/index....175m-tax-bill/

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Dazo

We should have a share issue.

:faf:

Got to be a hibby!

hopefully the link works and some of the financial guys will be able to make more of it than me, check out the risk section of their share issue portfolio
http://www.heartsfc.co.uk/page/Share...959454,00.html

Those rednecks better not go bust before we roast them on 3 jan

Not quite sure what this relates to tbh. Would like to know if anyone does.

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Originally Posted by Antwerphibs

Not quite sure what this relates to tbh. Would like to know if anyone does.

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As I understand it, not operating PAYE properly. Paying the loan players on the basis that they were resident in, say, Lithuania where tax rates are lower.... thereby paying HMRC less than they should have.

Is this particular share option similar to the "nigerian currency scam" . " I will send you ten thousand pounds but first I need a hundred as a processing charge. You then send me nine thousand pounds to another account after I have sent you the ten thousand.

If VLAD pulls this off he can have Jimmy Savilles knighthood.

been reading the risks part again from their share option

" Assuming the Club is successful in relation to the HMRC case referred to above, the offer, if fully subscribed, should provide the Club with sufficient working capital to achieve its goals for the 2012/2013 season without requiring additional funding. However, if the HMRC case goes against the Club and/or the offer is not fully subscribed, the Club may have insufficient working capital to achieve its goals for the 2012/2013 season and may have to seek additional sources of funding."

so they already need the full amount just to get to the end of the season and that's if they win the tax case!!

and as another side note another part specifies that the £1.75m the tax man is after "excludes penalties and fees" so it could be even worse

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

As I understand it, not operating PAYE properly. Paying the loan players on the basis that they were resident in, say, Lithuania where tax rates are lower.... thereby paying HMRC less than they should have.

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I wonder if they've only operated paye on the amount hearts were paying rather than the full amount. Players are quite Cleary resident in UK .

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Originally Posted by Mon Dieu4

been reading the risks part again from their share option

" Assuming the Club is successful in relation to the HMRC case referred to above, the offer, if fully subscribed, should provide the Club with sufficient working capital to achieve its goals for the 2012/2013 season without requiring additional funding. However, if the HMRC case goes against the Club and/or the offer is not fully subscribed, the Club may have insufficient working capital to achieve its goals for the 2012/2013 season and may have to seek additional sources of funding."

so they already need the full amount just to get to the end of the season and that's if they win the tax case!!

and as another side note another part specifies that the £1.75m the tax man is after "excludes penalties and fees" so it could be even worse

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Seems to me like Vlad could be looking to offload another 10% post xmas. Assuming they make it to then. Dundee could be looking at a second season in the SPL.:greengrin

This seems to be the most relevant page on HMRC:

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/paye/employee...rom-abroad.htm

IMO it's going to go down as a 'special case' at which point they should have contacted HMRC and got an official ruling on how much to pay. The fact HMRC are coming to get them suggests this didn't happen...


However, I can see their arguement that if only a small % of their wage is actually paid by Hearts and the rest by Kaunas then this is the set up of a lot of loan deals and they would only need to pay PAYE on the % they contribute.


Hopefully it's the former of those outcomes. :greengrin

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

I'm not so sure.

It is conceivable that the correct wages were declared on the contracts lodged with the SFA and SPL. ..... whilst not operating PAYE properly on those wages, which seems to be the crux of the HMRC case.

We can hope, though. :cb

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Possible of course, but I really hope the question is asked. Not much chance of Bathgate or Banderson mentioning it though.

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Originally Posted by danhibees1875

This seems to be the most relevant page on HMRC:

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/paye/employee...rom-abroad.htm

IMO it's going to go down as a 'special case' at which point they should have contacted HMRC and got an official ruling on how much to pay. The fact HMRC are coming to get them suggests this didn't happen...


However, I can see their arguement that if only a small % of their wage is actually paid by Hearts and the rest by Kaunas then this is the set up of a lot of loan deals and they would only need to pay PAYE on the % they contribute.


Hopefully it's the former of those outcomes. :greengrin

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I'd agree, but I think it'll be more complicated than that. For example, at one point Hearts accounts showed loads of money being paid out in mysterious "player registration fees". This could easily have been Hearts paying Kaunus to in turn pay the loan players. This sort of tax dodging isn't so clear cut.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mon Dieu4

been reading the risks part again from their share option

" Assuming the Club is successful in relation to the HMRC case referred to above, the offer, if fully subscribed, should provide the Club with sufficient working capital to achieve its goals for the 2012/2013 season without requiring additional funding. However, if the HMRC case goes against the Club and/or the offer is not fully subscribed, the Club may have insufficient working capital to achieve its goals for the 2012/2013 season and may have to seek additional sources of funding."

so they already need the full amount just to get to the end of the season and that's if they win the tax case!!

and as another side note another part specifies that the £1.75m the tax man is after "excludes penalties and fees" so it could be even worse

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At last the smoke a mirrors are swept away. Basically they are skint and could have a multi million pound outlay to suffer on top.

Without Romanov throwing them another £3m or 4m it's finally the last tock of the tick tock :greengrin

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Originally Posted by Peevemor

I's agree, but I think it'll be more complicated than that. For example, at one point Hearts accounts showed loads of money being paid out in mysterious "player registration fees". This could easily have been Hearts paying Kaunus to in turn pay the loan players. This sort of tax dodging isn't so clear cut.

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Does this not require a washing machine and some fabric conditioner.

At heart, Vlad is a spiv. Sometimes they can't help themselves.

I'm guessing hmrc wouldn't take on a legal battle like this unless they were pretty certain they'd win it.

On the face of it the hearts defence sounds quite credible, however I'm sure hmrc must have evidence against them if they're pursuing them through the courts and it sounds like hertz are expecting to lose if they're relying on this share issue.

Does anyone that knows about these things know how common it is for hmrc to lose in court?

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Originally Posted by bingo70

Does anyone that knows about these things know how common it is for hmrc to lose in court?

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Ask portsmouth or Mr redknapp

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Originally Posted by bingo70

I'm guessing hmrc wouldn't take on a legal battle like this unless they were pretty certain they'd win it.

On the face of it the hearts defence sounds quite credible, however I'm sure hmrc must have evidence against them if they're pursuing them through the courts and it sounds like hertz are expecting to lose if they're relying on this share issue.

Does anyone that knows about these things know how common it is for hmrc to lose in court?

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It's the other way round. HMRC will have investigated Hearts, then assessed the liability based on their understanding of the facts. Hearts (as with any other taxpayer) have the right of appeal to an independent tribunal. That's what is sitting next month.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-tier_Tribunal

The point of dispute here is essentially whether Hearts paid a market rate for the players "loaned" from Kaunas. Hearts will argue that they are entitled to only pay a small % of the wages through Scotland (with the rest paid through the lower tax regime of Lithuania) because lots of loan deals have situations where the borrowing club doesn't pay the full wage. HMRC will argue that because the two clubs are owned by the same controlling party, there isn't an arm's length bargain and that Romanov has fixed the % for tax advantage (no market reason). Particularly in the cases where Kaunas bought players then immediately "loaned" them to Hearts (eg Bednar).

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Originally Posted by bingo70

I'm guessing hmrc wouldn't take on a legal battle like this unless they were pretty certain they'd win it.

On the face of it the hearts defence sounds quite credible, however I'm sure hmrc must have evidence against them if they're pursuing them through the courts and it sounds like hertz are expecting to lose if they're relying on this share issue.

Does anyone that knows about these things know how common it is for hmrc to lose in court?

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HMRC rarely lose, just ask Sevco supporters! I wonder if the player registrations were all accurate ? Rangers did not get that right, it would be interesting to know if the "jam today bust tomorrow" outfit across the city disclosed everything to the SPL!!!

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Originally Posted by Hibeesforever

HMRC rarely lose, just ask Sevco supporters! I wonder if the player registrations were all accurate ? Rangers did not get that right, it would be interesting to know if the "jam today bust tomorrow" outfit across the city disclosed everything to the SPL!!!

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A certain SFA official had his fingers in a yam pie as well as the club formerly known as rangers

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20105317

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Hearts are "robustly" disputing a £1.75m bill from Revenue and Customs.

The tax bill, revealed in a document detailing an upcoming issue of Hearts shares, relates to players loaned to the Tynecastle club from FBK Kaunas.

Tax authorities have claimed what they regard as unpaid liabilities and the amount of the bill does not include interest and penalties.

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That means it will be a lot more than £1.75M if they lose. Rangers potential liability in their tax case was increased by over 50% due to interest & penalties.

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"The claims will be heard by the relevant tax tribunal in November 2012," Hearts stated.

Should the club be unsuccessful in their defence, they say it "could have a dramatically negative effect on the company".

And they added: "The directors are attempting to robustly defend those claims but the burden of proof is on the company and the tax will be payable unless the company is successful in challenging the claims."

Hearts argue that the players concerned were paid in Lithuania and tax was paid by FBK Kanuas.

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Confirming what I said above. This is Hearts' appeal; they have to prove that HMRC are wrong in their assessment. Their defence is that they were entitled to pay the players mainly through Lithuania, as per other loan agreements where the parent club picks up most of the tab. I think they're on very shaky grounds due to the common ownership of the clubs. Look up transfer pricing.

"Dramatically negative effect on the company" is a very disturbing phrase. If you're a Jambo.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahah a

• As at the 30th of June 2011 the amount due to the parent company, UAB Ukio Banko Investicine Grupe, was £22,413,000, which amount bears interest at 4.5%.UAB Ukio Banko Investicine Grupe have confirmed to the Directors of Heart of Midlothian plc. that they will not seek repayment of this amount during season 2012/2013 and at the 1st July 2013 the position will be reassessed.The balance due to UAB Ukio Banko Investicine Grupe is secured by a standard security over Tynecastle stadium and a floating charge across the company's assets. If UBIG were to demand repayment of the full amount, the Company would be insolvent and would face liquidation.

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Originally Posted by Mon Dieu4

have fun haha
http://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/index....175m-tax-bill/

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The poor wee souls are quite upset, aren't they? :devil:

Be nice if HMRC decided to put them into admin and start selling the assets.

Heart of Midlothian are finished at the end of this season should they even survive that long, as per their own share prospectus quoted above.