Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

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Originally Posted by Seveno

It's my specialist subject, Magnus.

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Barely a day goes by on this thread without mention of a Magnusson :wink:

I'll let you and PH argue that one, then lol

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Barely a day goes by on this thread without mention of a Magnusson :wink:

I'll let you and PH argue that one, then lol

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Sorry but you do nothing for me, in that way.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

As things stand, I think they only need to submit accounts. I don't think it matters what the accounts, or the auditors' report, say.

However, Doncaster was saying today that they are having a meeting on Monday to discuss the implementation of Financial Fair Play rules within the SPL/SFA. These would broadly reflect UEFA's rules, I reckon, but I don't think they would affect Hearts ability to play in Europe next season.

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The UEFA Club Financial Control Panel will assess , among other things


g) The budgets of the club and its ability to meet its commitments in the future;


To me that would raise the " Going - Concern " issue thats had the Yams auditors inserting question marks in their Reports.

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Originally Posted by greenginger

The UEFA Club Financial Control Panel will assess , among other things


g) The budgets of the club and its ability to meet its commitments in the future;


To me that would raise the " Going - Concern " issue thats had the Yams auditors inserting question marks in their Reports.

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Yeah, but when does that come into force? I thought we still had another season to go, no?

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Originally Posted by greenginger

The UEFA Club Financial Control Panel will assess , among other things


g) The budgets of the club and its ability to meet its commitments in the future;


To me that would raise the " Going - Concern " issue thats had the Yams auditors inserting question marks in their Reports.

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Interesting what you write !!
Coming back from the game today with my friend who is a retired " liquidation administrator " ( an accountant to you and me !!) and we heard the score from Ibrox and were talking about the short term future for Hearts .
His point was " It depends how the powers that be look at Hearts in the light of what constitutes a " going concern" and the then implications "
Just as you say it could be the " achilles heel"

:flag:

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Originally Posted by Seveno

It's my specialist subject, Magnus.

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When the story first broke I checked with Octopus regarding the position of investments. I received replies regarding them and the following was stated in an email-

"The Reality & Facts:
The Ticketus deal(s) are all credit insured."

" We have had a club that has went into insolvency (South Coast) and because of the added protection we never lost any of our capital and indeed made the margin we expected."

I can't print the whole email as various clients' names are on it. Obviously if I have been mislead I would really like to hear from you or pointed in the right direction. By the way I have since been told the South Coast club was Plymouth.

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Originally Posted by PatHead

When the story first broke I checked with Octopus regarding the position of investments. I received replies regarding them and the following was stated in an email-

"The Reality & Facts:
The Ticketus deal(s) are all credit insured."

" We have had a club that has went into insolvency (South Coast) and because of the added protection we never lost any of our capital and indeed made the margin we expected."

I can't print the whole email as various clients' names are on it. Obviously if I have been mislead I would really like to hear from you or pointed in the right direction. By the way I have since been told the South Coast club was Plymouth.

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Well if you were an Insurer, would you provide cover a against a company defaulting due to liquidation if it was in debt, losing money and had an outstanding court against HMRC a sum of involving a £45m ?

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Originally Posted by Seveno

Well if you were an Insurer, would you provide cover a against a company defaulting due to liquidation if it was in debt, losing money and had an outstanding court against HMRC a sum of involving a £45m ?

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If the clubs were in a great financial position they wouldn't need the money up front and to sell the tickets at a discount. Would expect a fairly high premium though! Bit like a car insurance firm covering a previously convicted drink driver

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Originally Posted by PatHead

If the clubs were in a great financial position they wouldn't need the money up front and to sell the tickets at a discount. Would expect a fairly high premium though! Bit like a car insurance firm covering a previously convicted drink driver

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More like a car insurance company giving cover on a driver who is currently drunk and driving the wrong way along a motorway at 90mph.

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Originally Posted by Seveno

More like a car insurance company giving cover on a driver who is currently drunk and driving the wrong way along a motorway at 90mph.

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We know that now but at the time the purchase was made they were giving the money to a company which was receiving a cash injection from the new owner, was getting rid off it's overdraft etc. Yes had a tax case hanging over it but no guarantee they would lose it.

We now know that the new owner wasn't all he seemed and had borrowed a pound from his mate to buy Rangers before using Ticketus money to clear the overdraft and not buy new players as Daily ****** was reporting at the time.

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Originally Posted by PatHead

We now know that the new owner wasn't all he seemed and had borrowed a pound from his mate to buy Rangers before using Ticketus money to clear the overdraft and not buy new players as Daily ****** was reporting at the time.

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Insurance companies are always looking for a get out clause. If Ticketus did not disclose the risks fully (ie BTC) then the insurance company may not pay out.

Purely speculation of course.

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Originally Posted by grunt

They were signed on 31 March last year, I expect they will want to achieve that deadline again this year. How difficult it will be for the auditors to sign will depend on how much credence they give to Vlad's announcement that he was no longer going to fund them in future. I expect that if they believe him, it will be difficult for them to agree that HMFC are a going concern. I guess much will also depend on whether Vlad gifts them a further "forgiveness of debt " to allow them to report a small profit, like the £8m he forgave last year.

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Their accounts are certainly signed and dated 31st March but they were not lodged at Companies House until the 13th of May. That seems a bit strange as it probably doubled or trebled their late filing fee.

No chance of their Auditors back-dating a signature ?

Anyway I think any date used in deciding on clubs admission to competitions will be when the SFA receive said accounts and not some dodgy Tipex and photo-copy job with any date you like at the bottom. :wink:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/scottis...ties_1_2152461

No Huns in Europe....

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

http://www.scotsman.com/news/scottis...ties_1_2152461

No Huns in Europe....

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A far better headline the the Scotman's.


:thumbsup:

Interesting comments from Stewart Regan:-

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/footba...robe_1_2152924

I wonder if there are any players who actually had twin contracts and a wee bit down on their luck just now and might fancy a last pay day.:aok:

Anyone know who the present board members are?

I've tried to find some links but I've had no success.

Edit ; this might help......



http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/14215981

The excellent www.rangerstaxcase.com blogged this article in April last year. Given that they have been ahead of the game on most cases it is perhaps worth regurgitating, now that we are aware how events appear to be unfolding, and there should be a warning thet there is considerable Yam content,

http://rangerstaxcase.com/2011/04/14/campbell-ogilvie/

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Interesting comments from Stewart Regan:-

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/footba...robe_1_2152924

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"anything from Armageddon to a slap on the wrist"

No need to guess which way this is going to go then.

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Originally Posted by WindyMiller

Anyone know who the present board members are?

I've tried to find some links but I've had no success.

Edit ; this might help......



http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/14215981

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Lazy get. It's in one of the articles I linked.:greengrin

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Originally Posted by degenerated

"anything from Armageddon to a slap on the wrist"

No need to guess which way this is going to go then.

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Why do you say that? SR was merely pointing out the range of sanctions. That is all.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Lazy get. It's in one of the articles I linked.:greengrin

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CWD do you think the SFA have all the info they need to act ,its just that there seems to be new tangents daily to this moneychase .

The 2 links regarding Ogilvie are scary, his times at Hearts and Rangers the same payments etc .

His position in the SFA commitee you couldnt right this , plus the SFA`s part in this has to be investigated if they acted on a honest and trustworthy manner for all of Scotlands football clubs or a puppet to be played with at the chairmans fancy

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Originally Posted by cad

CWD do you think the SFA have all the info they need to act ,its just that there seems to be new tangents daily to this moneychase .

The 2 links regarding Ogilvie are scary, his times at Hearts and Rangers the same payments etc .

His position in the SFA commitee you couldnt right this , plus the SFA`s part in this has to be investigated if they acted on a honest and trustworthy manner for all of Scotlands football clubs or a puppet to be played with at the chairmans fancy

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SR does say in one of the articles I linked that, at least as far as the "double contracts" are concerned, they might decide to set up a separate enquiry. My hunch is that this IS what will happen. Given that the Adam accusations only arose this week, and the SFA enquiry is reporting next week, there is no way IMO that they can come to a satisfactory conclusion on that.

I do get the feeling that SR is trying his best to be transparent in all of this. It wouldn't surprise me if he decided that past events at the SFA were worthy of external scrutiny.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Lazy get. It's in one of the articles I linked.:greengrin

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It's Sunday morning!

:greengrin

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

SR does say in one of the articles I linked that, at least as far as the "double contracts" are concerned, they might decide to set up a separate enquiry. My hunch is that this IS what will happen. Given that the Adam accusations only arose this week, and the SFA enquiry is reporting next week, there is no way IMO that they can come to a satisfactory conclusion on that.

I do get the feeling that SR is trying his best to be transparent in all of this. It wouldn't surprise me if he decided that past events at the SFA were worthy of external scrutiny.

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Dont forget CWG if the fixture list was different it could be us waiting for a wedge from them, wonder how Rod and this message board would have reacted ,not best pleased .

Do you think George Pleat and his emergency fund of £5/6 Million should be used to ease the burden that Dunfermline are going through and pay them the £80,000 also Dun Utd theyre £100,000 it was on theyre watch sort of thing ,, finances put aside should be forthcoming and sorted out at the conclusion of
The Rangers Circus IMHO.

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Originally Posted by cad

Dont forget CWG if the fixture list was different it could be us waiting for a wedge from them, wonder how Rod and this message board would have reacted ,not best pleased .

Do you think George Pleat and his emergency fund of £5/6 Million should be used to ease the burden that Dunfermline are going through and pay them the £80,000 also Dun Utd theyre £100,000 it was on theyre watch sort of thing ,, finances put aside should be forthcoming and sorted out at the conclusion of
The Rangers Circus IMHO.

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Wouldn't have happened under Rod, IMO. Remember that this happened just before administration, months after the gossip first emerged. RP would probably have done what he did with Hearts, and demanded that we sell the tickets ourselves.

As for your second question, there is precedent in that the SPL advanced Gretna some of their prize money, to enable them to get to the end of the season. But that's as far as it should go, IMO. The rest of the clubs making up the SFA (to whom the emergency fund belongs to, of course) shouldn't be made to pay for RFC's, DUFC's and DAFC's financial mismanagement.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Wouldn't have happened under Rod, IMO. Remember that this happened just before administration, months after the gossip first emerged. RP would probably have done what he did with Hearts, and demanded that we sell the tickets ourselves.

As for your second question, there is precedent in that the SPL advanced Gretna some of their prize money, to enable them to get to the end of the season. But that's as far as it should go, IMO. The rest of the clubs making up the SFA (to whom the emergency fund belongs to, of course) shouldn't be made to pay for RFC's, DUFC's and DAFC's financial mismanagement.

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Im trying to remember what the situation was before Dunfermline and Dundee Utd played them ,were Rangers in financial difficulties I cant remember , if everything was hunkydory why would you stipulate how you were to be paid a crystalball they didnt have they were just the unlucky sods who still have to be paid ,a fixture that could have been us as I said before .

You dont think one of the biggest football clubs in Britain, the world ( well they like to think so )
is going to stiff you for £200,000 CWG come on.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

SR does say in one of the articles I linked that, at least as far as the "double contracts" are concerned, they might decide to set up a separate enquiry. My hunch is that this IS what will happen. Given that the Adam accusations only arose this week, and the SFA enquiry is reporting next week, there is no way IMO that they can come to a satisfactory conclusion on that.

I do get the feeling that SR is trying his best to be transparent in all of this. It wouldn't surprise me if he decided that past events at the SFA were worthy of external scrutiny.

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If I understand the Adam accusations correctly they take the tax case on to a new level. The big tax case has previously centered on whether the EBTs, which are in principle a legal method of tax avoidance, had been administered correctly. Adam's accusation seems to be that there were payments which were concealed from the SAF and the revenue. That would surely be tax evasion and lead to criminal cases. It certainly requires something far greater than an SFA enquiry.

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Originally Posted by cad

Im trying to remember what the situation was before Dunfermline and Dundee Utd played them ,were Rangers in financial difficulties I cant remember , if everything was hunkydory why would you stipulate how you were to be paid a crystalball they didnt have they were just the unlucky sods who still have to be paid ,a fixture that could have been us as I said before .

You dont think one of the biggest football clubs in Britain, the world ( well they like to think so )
is going to stiff you for £200,000 CWG come on.

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I think you're missing my point. You had asked about the hypothetical situation of Hibs being in DAFC's position.

Part of financial management is risk assessment. Hearts and Rangers' financial problems were well-known, and had been for a long time. In RFC's case, administration had been talked about for a while.

When Hearts came to call in January, we assessed the risk of not getting paid, and decided that one did exist. So we sold Hearts fans their tickets. Presumably, DAFC (and United) went through that same process, and decided that the risk was not that great. In hindsight, a poor decision.

Whilst DUFC and DAFC deserve a lot of sympathy, they also should take part of the blame. It's in situations like this that we should be thankful for the Board we have.

And, it was £80k DAFC lost out on, not £200k :na na:

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Originally Posted by PatHead

We know that now but at the time the purchase was made they were giving the money to a company which was receiving a cash injection from the new owner, was getting rid off it's overdraft etc. Yes had a tax case hanging over it but no guarantee they would lose it.

We now know that the new owner wasn't all he seemed and had borrowed a pound from his mate to buy Rangers before using Ticketus money to clear the overdraft and not buy new players as Daily ****** was reporting at the time.

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All raises the spectre of fraudulent misrepresentation.