Scotrail

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JimBHibees

There is substantial evidence alcohol is a key factor in all sorts of anti social or violent incidents across the country.

---

Then ban drunk people from getting on the train at all, if it's that easy to identify alcohol as the root cause.

The reason why people do bad things is because they have, on some level, made the decision to do that. Alcohol might enable people and make them more likely to behave badly, but it's not the underlying cause - excluding issues with addiction...etc.

Solving that problem is much harder and outside the remit of a transportation company so they've just decided to try to mitigate it by being more restrictive on what folk can and can't do whilst using their services. Fair enough.

However, it definitely is within the jurisdiction of the Scottish Government to try to figure out why in Scotland our problem with antisocial behaviour is so bad that we have to be more restrictive around where and when folk can consume alcohol, compared with rUK and Europe.



Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DinkyTwo

Then ban drunk people from getting on the train at all, if it's that easy to identify alcohol as the root cause.

The reason why people do bad things is because they have, on some level, made the decision to do that. Alcohol might enable people and make them more likely to behave badly, but it's not the underlying cause - excluding issues with addiction...etc.

Solving that problem is much harder and outside the remit of a transportation company so they've just decided to try to mitigate it by being more restrictive on what folk can and can't do whilst using their services. Fair enough.

However, it definitely is within the jurisdiction of the Scottish Government to try to figure out why in Scotland our problem with antisocial behaviour is so bad that we have to be more restrictive around where and when folk can consume alcohol, compared with rUK and Europe.



Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

---

Have we got more antisocial behaviour than the rest of the uk?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

I don’t think there are any staff on a Scotrail train to kick people off though. They likely have to call the police.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

That's kinda what I'm getting at.

With or without alcohol being consumed, trains (especially at night) can feel like quite a dangerous place to be in. There's literally nobody about who has the authority to step in and stop something awful from happening.

I remember thinking the same thing last year when this was going on:

https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/g...nager-21898300

A young boy was then murdered inside a Glasgow train station the next day in what is believed to have been an act of retribution. No mention of any booze being consumed in either incident.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Have we got more antisocial behaviour than the rest of the uk?

---

We must do; it's the trotted out reason for not allowing booze at football, on trains and in public.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DinkyTwo

We must do; it's the trotted out reason for not allowing booze at football, on trains and in public.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

---

We don’t. Scotland is the safest part of the UK. Our crime levels are far far below what they are in England and Wales.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

We don’t. Scotland is the safest part of the UK. Our crime levels are far far below what they are in England and Wales.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

Let us have our champagne on the train then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DinkyTwo

You'd likely be kicked out of a pub, party, family gathering if you couldn't behave yourself. Why should that be any different if it's on a train?

---

None of those other places you mention move at 100mph?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

I was on a train home from Inverness a few weeks back. I completely forgot about the ban so had bought some cans to drink on the journey home.

I cracked open a can, buried my head in a book and didn't think anything of it until my ticket was checked and I was told it was no longer allowed. I immediately apologised and explained I had just forgotten. The guy had a look around the carriage (myself and half a dozen others max) and said it was ok as long as I was discreet and off he went. A bit common sense from him and apologising without becoming confrontational from me and everything was totally fine. Simple really.

I think there is a balance to be had. By all means have complete bans on potentially volatile services. The last train from Glasgow to Edinburgh on a Saturday for example (although if people have been bevvying all day I'm not sure how effective stopping them having one last can is going to be). However the vast, vast majority of people I see drinking on trains are no bother at all. Most people sit quietly and enjoy a drink, bigger groups can be loud but are generally harmless. In recent times I can't say I've felt any less safe on LNER and Cross Country service that permit alcohol (and appear to have more drinkers because they are generally speaking carrying people going on longer journeys) than I have on Scotrail services which are dry.

---

Exactly what the conductor guy said to me, oddly also on the Inverness train. If no dodgy behaviour looks likely he’ll let it pass most of the time. Everything is about context.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

None of those other places you mention move at 100mph?

---

Kicking them off whilst going full tilt is a bit extreme

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DinkyTwo

Kicking them off whilst going full tilt is a bit extreme

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

---

Serve them right though 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿😁

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Since90+2

I wonder how other parts of the UK manage to cope with alcohol being allowed but somehow it's simply not permissable in Scotland.

As far as I'm aware it's allowed in NI, Wales, England and also the ROI. Scotland is the outlier here.

Maybe we're all just too daft and stupid to be trusted with the bevvy?

---

:agree: Not only that but other operators whose trains run in Scotland allow alcohol to be consumed onboard, including during the Scottish leg of the journeys.

So you can travel around Scotland by train and consume alcohol whilst you're doing so, but just not on the country's national operator.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sir David Gray

:agree: Not only that but other operators whose trains run in Scotland allow alcohol to be consumed onboard, including during the Scottish leg of the journeys.

So you can travel around Scotland by train and consume alcohol whilst you're doing so, but just not on the country's national operator.

---

Too drunk too stupid, too wee to handle our bevvy. Tories are always putting us down treating us like kids. Oh actually hold on a minute...

The unions pushed for the banning of alcohol as staff were sick and tired by the amount of anti social behaviour on trains. Banning alcohol helps reduce ASB but unfortunately does not stop it. The vast majority of trips in Scotland are less than 40 minutes, it’s not to much to expect people not to drink whilst on public transport. On LNER most trains on a Friday afternoon from Scotland to Newcastle are dry and have security personnel onboard to enforce it. Scotrail don’t actually make much from alcohol sales as most who want to drink bring it with them. Responsible drinking is never a problem but there are too many incidents caused by drunken people that delay and disrupt journeys for everyone else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Since90+2

Probably a bit more than that, which is part of the issue. Let's say it takes 15 years, I would imagine that takes a fair old chunk of the drivers into retirement age or very close to it, a very sizeable pension will also have been built up in that timescale. In other words, I don't think that will be a particular concern for the drivers.

If we were talking the next 5 years or so then maybe things would be different, but that's never going to happen.

---

Driverless trains will not happen in the next 30 years. The railway in the U.K. was mostly built in Victorian times and does not have reliable connectivity in lots of areas to have any sort of system that could accommodate the necessary equipment to do this. In the north they don’t even have a modern signalling system. I also doubt that many people will accept travelling at speeds up to 125mph without a human being involved. Glasgow underground is automated but there is still a driver on every train. It’s far cheaper and safer to pay drivers the going rate for the job than spend hundreds of billions of pounds on driverless trains. If the U.K. government or Scottish government has billions to spend driverless trains would be way down the agenda.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lucky

The unions pushed for the banning of alcohol as staff were sick and tired by the amount of anti social behaviour on trains. Banning alcohol helps reduce ASB but unfortunately does not stop it. The vast majority of trips in Scotland are less than 40 minutes, it’s not to much to expect people not to drink whilst on public transport. On LNER most trains on a Friday afternoon from Scotland to Newcastle are dry and have security personnel onboard to enforce it. Scotrail don’t actually make much from alcohol sales as most who want to drink bring it with them. Responsible drinking is never a problem but there are too many incidents caused by drunken people that delay and disrupt journeys for everyone else.

---

'mon the Unions. Want to see more of this, workers have the right to feel safe at work. For me good working conditions are every bit as important as pay awards, although important to fight for both. :aok:

Edit - I'm not supporting any school strikes, understand they feel undervalued/underpaid but sick of the disruption to our kids lives.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lucky

The unions pushed for the banning of alcohol as staff were sick and tired by the amount of anti social behaviour on trains. Banning alcohol helps reduce ASB but unfortunately does not stop it. The vast majority of trips in Scotland are less than 40 minutes, it’s not to much to expect people not to drink whilst on public transport. On LNER most trains on a Friday afternoon from Scotland to Newcastle are dry and have security personnel onboard to enforce it. Scotrail don’t actually make much from alcohol sales as most who want to drink bring it with them. Responsible drinking is never a problem but there are too many incidents caused by drunken people that delay and disrupt journeys for everyone else.

---

Great post, totally agree.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lucky

The unions pushed for the banning of alcohol as staff were sick and tired by the amount of anti social behaviour on trains. Banning alcohol helps reduce ASB but unfortunately does not stop it. The vast majority of trips in Scotland are less than 40 minutes, it’s not to much to expect people not to drink whilst on public transport. On LNER most trains on a Friday afternoon from Scotland to Newcastle are dry and have security personnel onboard to enforce it. Scotrail don’t actually make much from alcohol sales as most who want to drink bring it with them. Responsible drinking is never a problem but there are too many incidents caused by drunken people that delay and disrupt journeys for everyone else.

---

What evidence is there that it helps reduce anti social behaviour? Is there any evidence to back that claim up at all?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lucky

The unions pushed for the banning of alcohol as staff were sick and tired by the amount of anti social behaviour on trains. Banning alcohol helps reduce ASB but unfortunately does not stop it. The vast majority of trips in Scotland are less than 40 minutes, it’s not to much to expect people not to drink whilst on public transport. On LNER most trains on a Friday afternoon from Scotland to Newcastle are dry and have security personnel onboard to enforce it. Scotrail don’t actually make much from alcohol sales as most who want to drink bring it with them. Responsible drinking is never a problem but there are too many incidents caused by drunken people that delay and disrupt journeys for everyone else.

---

If this was how it had actually come about then I think a lot more people may understand it, even if they still don't necessarily agree.

However this isn't how it was introduced. It was specifically put in place as a "temporary measure" over 18 months ago to help people travelling by train comply with emergency Covid-19 legislation i.e. to encourage social distancing and the wearing of face coverings whilst on public transport.

These emergency laws in Scotland ended two months ago and yet here we are still with the ban in place and Scotrail now seem to be resorting to revising history when it comes to explaining to the public on social media why the ban was initially put in place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sir David Gray

If this was how it had actually come about then I think a lot more people may understand it, even if they still don't necessarily agree.

However this isn't how it was introduced. It was specifically put in place as a "temporary measure" over 18 months ago to help people travelling by train comply with emergency Covid-19 legislation i.e. to encourage social distancing and the wearing of face coverings whilst on public transport.

These emergency laws in Scotland ended two months ago and yet here we are still with the ban in place and Scotrail now seem to be resorting to revising history when it comes to explaining to the public on social media why the ban was initially put in place.

---

Is it a ban or is it just Scotrail company policy?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Since90+2

What evidence is there that it helps reduce anti social behaviour? Is there any evidence to back that claim up at all?

---

It didn't it went up by a big bit since it was stopped. If it was the other way around they would have claimed it as a victory for them

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lucky

The unions pushed for the banning of alcohol as staff were sick and tired by the amount of anti social behaviour on trains. Banning alcohol helps reduce ASB but unfortunately does not stop it. The vast majority of trips in Scotland are less than 40 minutes, it’s not to much to expect people not to drink whilst on public transport. On LNER most trains on a Friday afternoon from Scotland to Newcastle are dry and have security personnel onboard to enforce it. Scotrail don’t actually make much from alcohol sales as most who want to drink bring it with them. Responsible drinking is never a problem but there are too many incidents caused by drunken people that delay and disrupt journeys for everyone else.

---

Very measured and thoughtful post, unfortunately it's literally tyranny or whatever for people not to go half an hour without a drink so your argument is invalid.

I have been subject to more than one unwanted advance on the train from people pissed out of their minds. Can't imagine what it's like for women. If this goes any way to reducing that even a bit, then good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Diclonius

I have been subject to more than one unwanted advance on the train from people pissed out of their minds. Can't imagine what it's like for women. If this goes any way to reducing that even a bit, then good.

---

Any chance of providing details of the services involved? 😉

https://amp.theguardian.com/cities/2...-rides-okayama

Maybe they could do something like this :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Is it a ban or is it just Scotrail company policy?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

According to Scotrail's own website it's a ban.

https://www.scotrail.co.uk/about-sco...el/alcohol-ban

It’s actually a railway by-law. Train operators can introduce alcohol bans which effectively mean they are laws under the terms of their licence. Rail staff are regularly spat on, verbally abused, physically abused, fire extinguishers stole and set off, pass comms pulled, full scale fights and women passengers subjected to unwanted sexual advances. To name a few issues that happen daily. The vast majority of this caused by people under the influence of alcohol. So if banning it helps reduce some of these incidents then it’s got to make using the railway a bit more pleasurable for everyone.

The railway is key in reducing our cabin footprint and must become a mode of choice as part of our public transport network, if we are going to get people our of cars onto trains and buses then it must be safe and affordable. The next fare rises in January could be eye bleeding as they are link to RPI plus 1%. No one will use the trains if prices shoot by by 10/11% and they are full of drunks or neds causing havoc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lucky

It’s actually a railway by-law. Train operators can introduce alcohol bans which effectively mean they are laws under the terms of their licence. Rail staff are regularly spat on, verbally abused, physically abused, fire extinguishers stole and set off, pass comms pulled, full scale fights and women passengers subjected to unwanted sexual advances. To name a few issues that happen daily. The vast majority of this caused by people under the influence of alcohol. So if banning it helps reduce some of these incidents then it’s got to make using the railway a bit more pleasurable for everyone.

The railway is key in reducing our cabin footprint and must become a mode of choice as part of our public transport network, if we are going to get people our of cars onto trains and buses then it must be safe and affordable. The next fare rises in January could be eye bleeding as they are link to RPI plus 1%. No one will use the trains if prices shoot by by 10/11% and they are full of drunks or neds causing havoc.

---

It's not antisocial behaviour is well up since the ban came in. You need to change society first. If someone is pissed they won't become sober on their 20 minute journey

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

It's not antisocial behaviour is well up since the ban came in. You need to change society first. If someone is pissed they won't become sober on their 20 minute journey

---

ABS is up but if someone is pissed allowing them more alcohol is not the answer. But I do agree there needs to be societal change.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lucky

ABS is up but if someone is pissed allowing them more alcohol is not the answer. But I do agree there needs to be societal change.

---

That's how I feel as well. Yes you'll still get trouble and people who are smashed will still get on trains but if its bad, in what scenario is giving them the chance to drink more going to make it better?

The honest answer is that we have an unhealthy relationship with alcohol in this country, and that includes middle class folk as well. I understand for people it's about freedom but we really need to move away as a society from the idea that a a drink, even just a glass of wine, is some god given right.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by neil7908

That's how I feel as well. Yes you'll still get trouble and people who are smashed will still get on trains but if its bad, in what scenario is giving them the chance to drink more going to make it better?

The honest answer is that we have an unhealthy relationship with alcohol in this country, and that includes middle class folk as well. I understand for people it's about freedom but we really need to move away as a society from the idea that a a drink, even just a glass of wine, is some god given right.

---

Would you agree with banning drinks in parks, what about restaurants, pubs or ban it full stop.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lucky

ABS is up but if someone is pissed allowing them more alcohol is not the answer. But I do agree there needs to be societal change.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by neil7908

That's how I feel as well. Yes you'll still get trouble and people who are smashed will still get on trains but if its bad, in what scenario is giving them the chance to drink more going to make it better?

The honest answer is that we have an unhealthy relationship with alcohol in this country, and that includes middle class folk as well. I understand for people it's about freedom but we really need to move away as a society from the idea that a a drink, even just a glass of wine, is some god given right.

---

The thing is though, we're actually doing nothing to solve these problems.

We're just taking rights away from the general public.

Incredible that some people are prepared to accept that when there seems to be no evidence whatsoever that it is making a difference.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk