The Trans Rights Debate

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Zero to do with the GRA though.

Swimming has got this wrong though.


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Lia Thomas removed the person who was 17th from being in the semi final, the person who was 9th from being in the final, removed the person who was 4th from being on the medal podium, removed the person who was 2nd who was the first biological woman from being the actual champion, so that is five woman in one event alone that lost out when Lia Thomas transitioned (no pun intended) from ranked 462 in the male category to number 1 in the female category.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sgjc29QCGo

Regardless which party submitted this Act and I accept it received cross party support. But it’s poor legislation due to the lack of checks and balances…. I honestly believe legislation this will be used by predators or voyeurs. Having dealt with more sexually assaulted or rape victims than I care to remember. I fully agree with the spirit of the Act however the execution leaves a lot to be desired.

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Originally Posted by Berwickhibby

Regardless which party submitted this Act and I accept it received cross party support. But it’s poor legislation due to the lack of checks and balances…. I honestly believe legislation this will be used by predators or voyeurs. Having dealt with more sexually assaulted or rape victims than I care to remember. I fully agree with the spirit of the Act however the execution leaves a lot to be desired.

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A piece of legislation focused on widening the rights of one group which diminishes the hard-won rights of another cannot be good law.

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Originally Posted by 147lothian

Lia Thomas removed the person who was 17th from being in the semi final, the person who was 9th from being in the final, removed the person who was 4th from being on the medal podium, removed the person who was 2nd who was the first biological woman from being the actual champion, so that is five woman in one event alone that lost out when Lia Thomas transitioned (no pun intended) from ranked 462 in the male category to number 1 in the female category.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sgjc29QCGo

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https://www-independent-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/lia-thomas-trans-swimmer-ron-desantis-b2091218.html?amp=&amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq33 1AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ao h=16734736265342&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google .com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk% 2Fnews%2Fworld%2Famericas%2Flia-thomas-trans-swimmer-ron-desantis-b2091218.html
Ms Thomas skipped the 2020-21 swimming season, and so she has now been on HRT for nearly three years. According to Sports Illustrated, she lost strength and an inch of her height on HRT, making it impossible for her to match her performance.

So how does she perform as a swimmer today?

Let's look first at Ms Thomas's record in the NCAA. While some of her fastest times have been in other competitions, these are the easiest results to access and compare across multiple years and athletes.



Ms Thomas won the women's 500 yard freestyle race in 4m 33.24s. She came fifth in the 200 yard race, with 1m 43.40s, and eighth in the 100 yard race with 48.40s.
These were impressive results, but they weren't record-breaking. Though the overall competition saw 27 all-time NCAA records broken, Ms Thomas's times weren't among them.

A whopping 18 of those were broken by Kate Douglass of the University of Virginia (UVA), who now has the fastest times in US college history in the 50 yard freestyle, the 100 yard butterfly stroke, and the 200 yard breaststroke.

"It is easy to see how dominant Kate is.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

https://www-independent-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/lia-thomas-trans-swimmer-ron-desantis-b2091218.html?amp=&amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq33 1AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ao h=16734736265342&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google .com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk% 2Fnews%2Fworld%2Famericas%2Flia-thomas-trans-swimmer-ron-desantis-b2091218.html
Ms Thomas skipped the 2020-21 swimming season, and so she has now been on HRT for nearly three years. According to Sports Illustrated, she lost strength and an inch of her height on HRT, making it impossible for her to match her performance.

So how does she perform as a swimmer today?

Let's look first at Ms Thomas's record in the NCAA. While some of her fastest times have been in other competitions, these are the easiest results to access and compare across multiple years and athletes.



Ms Thomas won the women's 500 yard freestyle race in 4m 33.24s. She came fifth in the 200 yard race, with 1m 43.40s, and eighth in the 100 yard race with 48.40s.
These were impressive results, but they weren't record-breaking. Though the overall competition saw 27 all-time NCAA records broken, Ms Thomas's times weren't among them.

A whopping 18 of those were broken by Kate Douglass of the University of Virginia (UVA), who now has the fastest times in US college history in the 50 yard freestyle, the 100 yard butterfly stroke, and the 200 yard breaststroke.

"It is easy to see how dominant Kate is.

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She went from a crap male swimmer to one of the best female swimmers. That's thanks to puberty as a male. In March she won the ncaa championship beating the Olympic silver medalist by 2 seconds. The winner of the female race had a *****.

She was going to take part in the trials for the Paris Olympics but thankfully the isf have just said, anyone that has puberty as a male will not be able to compete in female international competition.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

She went from a crap male swimmer to one of the best female swimmers. That's thanks to puberty as a male. In March she won the ncaa championship beating the Olympic silver medalist by 2 seconds. The winner of the female race had a *****.

She was going to take part in the trials for the Paris Olympics but thankfully the isf have just said, anyone that has puberty as a male will not be able to compete in female international competition.

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Are you saying that the independent didn't get the facts right in the article?

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

She went from a crap male swimmer to one of the best female swimmers. That's thanks to puberty as a male. In March she won the ncaa championship beating the Olympic silver medalist by 2 seconds. The winner of the female race had a *****.

She was going to take part in the trials for the Paris Olympics but thankfully the isf have just said, anyone that has puberty as a male will not be able to compete in female international competition.

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Sounds like problem solved by the sports authorities. The way it should be.[emoji106]


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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Are you saying that the independent didn't get the facts right in the article?

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Eh. I'm just saying facts. She was around the 600 best male 200m male swimmer at Penn state. She transitioned and was picked in the top 5 squad of females.

The fact as so obvious, that if you go through male puberty you will have an advantage compared to if you didn't.

As oz says common sense has prevaled in the world stage but not US. Thomas winning the title last summer means a female lost out, that could cost sponsorship and a career. Place's in swim teams can mean scholarships, so biological females can lose out on getting a degree.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Eh. I'm just saying facts. She was around the 600 best male 200m male swimmer at Penn state. She transitioned and was picked in the top 5 squad of females.

The fact as so obvious, that if you go through male puberty you will have an advantage compared to if you didn't.

As oz says common sense has prevaled in the world stage but not US. Thomas winning the title last summer means a female lost out, that could cost sponsorship and a career. Place's in swim teams can mean scholarships, so biological females can lose out on getting a degree.

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Yet she was 5th and 8th in the shorter races at the NCCA event? She obviously isn't using her male muscles very well.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Yet she was 5th and 8th in the shorter races at the NCCA event? She obviously isn't using her male muscles very well.

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Because she is a poor swimmer. 584th best in the males 200m at her university, who knew that many males swam at penn state.

If I transition into a female tomorrow I'm not going to win any female Olympic medals, as they have spent their lives on it, are extremely talented and I'm hopeless. I will get a massive advantage that I shouldn't though.

I was Edinburgh schools level at football. If I played the female game I maybe would have got in a Scotland youth squad. I'd have taken the place of a more talented female just because of my physical attributes.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Because she is a poor swimmer. 584th best in the males 200m at her university, who knew that many males swam at penn state.

If I transition into a female tomorrow I'm not going to win any female Olympic medals, as they have spent their lives on it, are extremely talented and I'm hopeless. I will get a massive advantage that I shouldn't though.

I was Edinburgh schools level at football. If I played the female game I maybe would have got in a Scotland youth squad. I'd have taken the place of a more talented female just because of my physical attributes.

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You would have got in the full Scotland squad.
I coach an u17 boys team and I’m confident we would beat any team in the SWPL. That’s not a criticism of the women’s game. The have some amazing players. It’s just that the boys are now a lot faster and stronger.
Last season Spartans ladies played against the boys u14’s and only won 3-2 with a couple of late goals as the boys ran out of steam. That same team this year would beat them.
Male and female sport can’t and shouldn’t be compared. They are both great to play and watch.


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The-Scottish-Gender-Recognition-Reform-Bill.pdf (policyexchange.org.uk)

Think tank paper concludes the bill meets the requirements for a Section 35 order. Needless to say folk will dismiss it as a right-leaning publication but having had a read of it I'd say the case it makes is hard to argue with.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

The-Scottish-Gender-Recognition-Reform-Bill.pdf (policyexchange.org.uk)

Think tank paper concludes the bill meets the requirements for a Section 35 order. Needless to say folk will dismiss it as a right-leaning publication but having had a read of it I'd say the case it makes is hard to argue with.

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I’m sure we’ll find out soon enough.


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The Brit Awards got rid of gender based awards and now all 5 nominations for Artist of the Year are male. Apparently they got rid of male and female categories as non binary Sam Smith couldn't be nominated in male or female seeing as he doesn't identify as either.

If I was a woman artist I would be pretty annoyed at this.

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Originally Posted by James310

The Brit Awards got rid of gender based awards and now all 5 nominations for Artist of the Year are male. Apparently they got rid of male and female categories as non binary Sam Smith couldn't be nominated in male or female seeing as he doesn't identify as either.

If I was a woman artist I would be pretty annoyed at this.

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Well I hope he's happy not picking a gender. 5 female artists that would have got a sales bump that comes with a nomination now lose out. Think there needs to be a new suffragette movement as women's rights and achievements are being chipped away all over the world.

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Originally Posted by James310

The Brit Awards got rid of gender based awards and now all 5 nominations for Artist of the Year are male. Apparently they got rid of male and female categories as non binary Sam Smith couldn't be nominated in male or female seeing as he doesn't identify as either.

If I was a woman artist I would be pretty annoyed at this.

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And if they are all female next year, will you be annoyed at that?


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Originally Posted by James310

The Brit Awards got rid of gender based awards and now all 5 nominations for Artist of the Year are male. Apparently they got rid of male and female categories as non binary Sam Smith couldn't be nominated in male or female seeing as he doesn't identify as either.

If I was a woman artist I would be pretty annoyed at this.

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In last year's event, which was gender-neutral, 10 out of 15 categories were won by women or female-fronted acts. This year, no-one has more nominations than Wet Leg.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

And if they are all female next year, will you be annoyed at that?


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I am not annoyed as I am not being considered for a Brit Award. I don't see a problem however keeping male and female categories.

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Originally Posted by James310

The Brit Awards got rid of gender based awards and now all 5 nominations for Artist of the Year are male. Apparently they got rid of male and female categories as non binary Sam Smith couldn't be nominated in male or female seeing as he doesn't identify as either.

If I was a woman artist I would be pretty annoyed at this.

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Aren’t women lucky to have a man like you to tell them how they should feel about this.

I think it says a lot about your opinion of female artists that you believe they need gender protected awards in order to win. The Mercury Music prize is often seen as the highest accolade in British popular music making and is non-gender specific, 3 of the last 5 winners have been women. You might disagree but women are just as good at making music as men.

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Originally Posted by CapitalGreen

Aren’t women lucky to have a man like you to tell them how they should feel about this.

I think it says a lot about your opinion of female artists that you believe they need gender protected awards in order to win. The Mercury Music prize is often seen as the highest accolade in British popular music making and is non-gender specific, 3 of the last 5 winners have been women. You might disagree but women are just as good at making music as men.

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Here is a woman that disagrees with you.

https://inews.co.uk/culture/music/br...-music-2080582

"2023’s gender-neutral Brits nominations are an affront to women in music

Despite efforts to be more inclusive, this year’s nominations reflect an industry living in the past"

You don't see the irony of what you posted as you as a man are saying she is wrong and telling her how to feel.

I am guessing you would support getting rid of best male/female Oscars etc. Where does it end?

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Originally Posted by James310

Here is a woman that disagrees with you.

https://inews.co.uk/culture/music/br...-music-2080582

"2023’s gender-neutral Brits nominations are an affront to women in music

Despite efforts to be more inclusive, this year’s nominations reflect an industry living in the past"

You don't see the irony of what you posted as you as a man are saying she is wrong and telling her how to feel.

I am guessing you would support getting rid of best male/female Oscars etc. Where does it end?

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For the most part, Art is art. Why would there be a need to differentiate between genders to decide who is "the best"? ( the last bit is in itself problematic IMO, but that's for another debate)

We've had the likes of the Turner and the Booker for years. I don't recall there being much of an issue about their being gender-neutral.

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Originally Posted by James310

Here is a woman that disagrees with you.

https://inews.co.uk/culture/music/br...-music-2080582

"2023’s gender-neutral Brits nominations are an affront to women in music

Despite efforts to be more inclusive, this year’s nominations reflect an industry living in the past"

You don't see the irony of what you posted as you as a man are saying she is wrong and telling her how to feel.

I am guessing you would support getting rid of best male/female Oscars etc. Where does it end?

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I'm not sure, Adele will be happy hearing the culture writer, Emily bootle, class her clean sweep of awards last year as a fluke.

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Originally Posted by James310

I am not annoyed as I am not being considered for a Brit Award. I don't see a problem however keeping male and female categories.

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When physical advantage doesn't play a role in competition, isn't separating the sexes a step backwards in equality and doesn't it devalue any awards?

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Originally Posted by James310

Here is a woman that disagrees with you.

https://inews.co.uk/culture/music/br...-music-2080582

"2023’s gender-neutral Brits nominations are an affront to women in music

Despite efforts to be more inclusive, this year’s nominations reflect an industry living in the past"

You don't see the irony of what you posted as you as a man are saying she is wrong and telling her how to feel.

I am guessing you would support getting rid of best male/female Oscars etc. Where does it end?

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I hadn’t read her opinion so how could I say her opinion is wrong? I also didn’t tell anyone how to feel, I told you what I felt about your opinion.

As for the Oscar’s, until there is an end to the male domination of leading roles in the Hollywood film industry, I see a strong argument for gender specific awards for acting being protected. For example, the top 10 highest grossing films of 2022 all had male lead actors. I no longer see the same gender imbalance existing in UK popular music. The current top 5 singles and 4 of the top 10 albums in the UK last year are female artists or musical acts with female leads.

https://archive.ph/2023.01.12-170350...tist-8sf7g9mhr

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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

When physical advantage doesn't play a role in competition, isn't separating the sexes a step backwards in equality and doesn't it devalue any awards?

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I think that's a fair, and interesting, question. :agree:

Is there a history of institutional bias towards men that doing so would help to address?

Perhaps there was a time where it was needed but is no longer required?

A recent YouGov poll showed public opinion sits with only sporting awards should be separated by sex; most would rather see combined awards for acting, music, literary, scientific, and humanitarian awards.

However, the consensus is also that there's a higher likelihood of this leading to more male winners across all those categories than more female winners (that's a tad misleading, as there's large "stay the same" results in each too (not sports)).

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Are you saying that the independent didn't get the facts right in the article?

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If you look at the independent web site for Lia Thomas you get the same old narrative, transwoman are women, Lia is a woman, Lia deserves to be in woman's sport. In other words the independent has skin in the game, it thinks it will be seen as modern thinking and progressive to be a trans ally, so it pursues the the war on reality that is trans ideology. I would trust an independent journalist to report on a woman's sports event that involved a transwoman about as much as I would trust a mouse to guard the cheese.

The independent even go as far as to say that Lia Thomas never had an unfair advantage, even though Lia Thomas went from ranked 462 in the male category to winning gold in the woman's 500 yard free style. This is completely unheard of in elite sport and demonstrates clearly that transwomen are not women. The only way that woman's sport can be a fair sport is if it a protected category for biological woman only.

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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

When physical advantage doesn't play a role in competition, isn't separating the sexes a step backwards in equality and doesn't it devalue any awards?

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Exactly. Taking this to its logical conclusion, should we have separate categories for race as well?

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Originally Posted by neil7908

Exactly. Taking this to its logical conclusion, should we have separate categories for race as well?

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The issue is that when awards are non gender specific then they are invariably male dominated.

The Turner and Booker Prizes were both mentioned above, both winners lists dominated by men. The TCAs made a range of awards non gender specific, dominated by men. (70% male winners) The Edinburgh Comedy Award (only 5 female winners in it's history), Nobel Prizes (898 men to 61 women) and the BAFTA rising star award (9 v 3 in favour of men) follow the same pattern. 67 SPOTY awards given, 13 female winners (one as a joint winner with a male partner). MTVs best comedic award performance has had more male winners (21 from 97 nominees) than female nominees (20). You get the picture.

That's not to say there shouldn't be a move towards inclusivity but there also has to be recognition that winning prestigious awards brings career and subsequently financial advancement and as it stands in non gender defined awards women are often at a disadvantage. Without evidence that greater parity is likely then that disadvantage remains.

I'm also unsure why a female winning a female only award would devalue it. Are female awards only of value if they have been won competing against men? Does the same apply the other way around?

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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

The issue is that when awards are non gender specific then they are invariably male dominated.

The Turner and Booker Prizes were both mentioned above, both winners lists dominated by men. The TCAs made a range of awards non gender specific, dominated by men. (70% male winners) The Edinburgh Comedy Award (only 5 female winners in it's history), Nobel Prizes (898 men to 61 women) and the BAFTA rising star award (9 v 3 in favour of men) follow the same pattern. 67 SPOTY awards given, 13 female winners (one as a joint winner with a male partner). MTVs best comedic award performance has had more male winners (21 from 97 nominees) than female nominees (20). You get the picture.

That's not to say there shouldn't be a move towards inclusivity but there also has to be recognition that winning prestigious awards brings career and subsequently financial advancement and as it stands in non gender defined awards women are often at a disadvantage. Without evidence that greater parity is likely then that disadvantage remains.

I'm also unsure why a female winning a female only award would devalue it. Are female awards only of value if they have been won competing against men? Does the same apply the other way around?

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I take your point but the same issue applies to ethnic minorities. Is there therefore a compelling reason we would separate awards by gender but not race?

I think the Oscars is a great example of the way forward. There was an outcry (#OscarsSoWhite) and a recognition that awards need to consider how they decide a winner, and who is involved in the process.

I personally think that is a much better approach. Scrutinise and evaluate the process to ensure its much fairer for not just women, but also other commonly poorly presented communities.