Scotrail

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Originally Posted by Callum_62

I've always thought since living overseas that having alcohol on public transport was mad (where I lived it was banned)

However it's came about I agree with banning it here

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Thing is, most of Europe seem to manage having relaxed public drinking laws without it causing problems. The issue isn't really people having a beer on the train, its anti-social behaviour. And this is a lazy attempt to try to tackle it - at best.

The questions I'd be asking are:

1) What impact has the alcohol ban on trains had? Are trains now a generally safer environment?

2) What about drinking on the street? Is there more antisocial behaviour in Edinburgh and Aberdeen when compared to the rest of the country? If not, why do we ban public consumption of alcohol in practically every other council area?

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Originally Posted by Callum_62

I've always thought since living overseas that having alcohol on public transport was mad (where I lived it was banned)

However it's came about I agree with banning it here

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Where did you stay. I've been surprised how common it is to see people of all ilks having a bottle of beer on public transport in eastern Europe. Berlin, krakow, Prague, Warsaw and more it's seemed more prevalent compared to here.

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Originally Posted by DinkyTwo

Thing is, most of Europe seem to manage having relaxed public drinking laws without it causing problems. The issue isn't really people having a beer on the train, its anti-social behaviour. And this is a lazy attempt to try to tackle it - at best.

The questions I'd be asking are:

1) What impact has the alcohol ban on trains had? Are trains now a generally safer environment?

2) What about drinking on the street? Is there more antisocial behaviour in Edinburgh and Aberdeen when compared to the rest of the country? If not, why do we ban public consumption of alcohol in practically every other council area?

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I don’t use the trains but there does appear to be a problem with anti-social behaviour with women’s groups asking for female only carriages. The fact is that it’s Scotrail’s decision to make and if dealing with this problem is costing them money then they are perfectly entitled to say they would rather not. I don’t think it’s fair to other passengers to have to put up rail fares to cover the cost of dealing with this.


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I wonder how much train travel is down due to working from home now being the norm in many places post covid.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

I don’t use the trains but there does appear to be a problem with anti-social behaviour with women’s groups asking for female only carriages. The fact is that it’s Scotrail’s decision to make and if dealing with this problem is costing them money then they are perfectly entitled to say they would rather not. I don’t think it’s fair to other passengers to have to put up rail fares to cover the cost of dealing with this.


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Presumably anyone drunk enough and of the mentality to behave inappropriately on the train will be at the point where they're doing so already though? Seems unlikely having another 1/2 on the train will tip them over the edge. I guess that doesn't apply to longer journeys where you could have a good amount - but typically they're cross-border and you're allowed to anyway (I think? :confused: ).

The trains just need a commercial deal with some drinks companies, find a way to make money out of it and reduce the ticket price accordingly. Win-win.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

I don’t use the trains but there does appear to be a problem with anti-social behaviour with women’s groups asking for female only carriages. The fact is that it’s Scotrail’s decision to make and if dealing with this problem is costing them money then they are perfectly entitled to say they would rather not. I don’t think it’s fair to other passengers to have to put up rail fares to cover the cost of dealing with this.


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Train violence now up from pre covid levels in Scotland, which is surprising as journeys down. Maybe drink calmed people down😆.

British Transport Police predicts upsurge in violence on Scottish rail network as it reports rise in incidents
Violence is expected to increase on the Scottish rail network, British Transport Police (BTP) has warned as it reported a rise in incidents

The rail police force predicted an upsurge would be fuelled by warmer weather and busier trains, after new figures showed an 8 per cent increase in violent crime on Scotland’s railways compared to pre-Covid levels.

Threatening and abusive conduct also went up, by 30 per cent to 883 incidents in 2021/22 compared to 2019/20.

Such incidents involving under-18s jumped by 63 per cent from 243 to 397 incidents.

Publication of the figures comes after The Scotsman revealed three members of a specially-formed ScotRail team to tackle anti-social behaviour were assaulted on a Gourock-Glasgow train on Good Friday, with one taken to hospital.

Other incidents have included a ticket examiner tackling a gang of youths who had attacked a boy with a bottle on a Balloch-Glasgow train on May 1.

The Rail, Maritime and Transport union (RMT) has threatened a staff boycott of such routes if action is not stepped up.

The figures also showed anti-social behaviour incidents increased by 53 per cent in 2021/22 compared to pre-Covid levels, with the total increasing by 1,261 to 3,660.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

I don’t use the trains but there does appear to be a problem with anti-social behaviour with women’s groups asking for female only carriages. The fact is that it’s Scotrail’s decision to make and if dealing with this problem is costing them money then they are perfectly entitled to say they would rather not. I don’t think it’s fair to other passengers to have to put up rail fares to cover the cost of dealing with this.


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I don't think there's any substantial evidence that alcohol is the driving factor behind the antisocial behaviour, though. And that's really what I take an issue with - instead of getting to the root of the problem, we've jumped straight to taking away rights from the general public.

Scotrail are now also publically owned. So any decision they make is by default, endorsed by the Scottish Government.

If this was the Tories, we'd (quite rightly) be saying that this sort of heavy handed approach to governance was a prequel to fascism.

First it was no drinking on the street.
Then minimum pricing
Then no drinking on trains...

What's next? Drinking prohibited after 10pm? Restaurants can't serve a glass of wine with your dinner?





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Originally Posted by DinkyTwo

I don't think there's any substantial evidence that alcohol is the driving factor behind the antisocial behaviour, though. And that's really what I take an issue with - instead of getting to the root of the problem, we've jumped straight to taking away rights from the general public.

Scotrail are now also publically owned. So any decision they make is by default, endorsed by the Scottish Government.

If this was the Tories, we'd (quite rightly) be saying that this sort of heavy handed approach to governance was a prequel to fascism.

First it was no drinking on the street.
Then minimum pricing
Then no drinking on trains...

What's next? Drinking prohibited after 10pm? Restaurants can't serve a glass of wine with your dinner?





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The right to get steaming and shout nonsense on the train

Fascism!



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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Where did you stay. I've been surprised how common it is to see people of all ilks having a bottle of beer on public transport in eastern Europe. Berlin, krakow, Prague, Warsaw and more it's seemed more prevalent compared to here.

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New Zealand

Which also had a ban on alcohol in place in alot of public spaces

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Originally Posted by Callum_62

The right to get steaming and shout nonsense on the train

Fascism!



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I'd doubt if people are going to get steaming the train is the main place they will get steaming. They will still get steaming and use the trains.

Seeing as since the ban anti social behaviour is well up than pre covid, it obviously makes no difference.

I'm sure people would be for it if it dropped antisocial behaviour by a decent amount.

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Originally Posted by DinkyTwo

I don't think there's any substantial evidence that alcohol is the driving factor behind the antisocial behaviour, though. And that's really what I take an issue with - instead of getting to the root of the problem, we've jumped straight to taking away rights from the general public.

Scotrail are now also publically owned. So any decision they make is by default, endorsed by the Scottish Government.

If this was the Tories, we'd (quite rightly) be saying that this sort of heavy handed approach to governance was a prequel to fascism.

First it was no drinking on the street.
Then minimum pricing
Then no drinking on trains...

What's next? Drinking prohibited after 10pm? Restaurants can't serve a glass of wine with your dinner?





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Alcohol is a driving factor behind anti social behaviour in general situations, like pubs, parties, family get togethers etc. I don't really see how trains would somehow manage to escape this problem. I wouldn't say I've ever noticed this during the day on trains, seems more like people boarding trains already leathered and keeping their sesh going during the journey home.

I'm not against this policy, even if it is only a minority who are the problem, it gives the majority the right to travel in a more safe and comfortable way on their journey.

I doubt the management of Scotrail are fully paid up members of the temperance society so they must see this as a solution to a problem that is costing them money? I would rather they solve it like this rather than put up the price of tickets.


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Originally Posted by DinkyTwo

I don't think there's any substantial evidence that alcohol is the driving factor behind the antisocial behaviour, though.

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What?

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

I doubt the management of Scotrail are fully paid up members of the temperance society so they must see this as a solution to a problem that is costing them money? I would rather they solve it like this rather than put up the price of tickets.


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Even if its not working as it antisocial behaviour increased after it came in? I'm all for solutions that make a noticeable difference

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Originally Posted by Santa Cruz

Alcohol is a driving factor behind anti social behaviour in general situations, like pubs, parties, family get togethers etc. I don't really see how trains would somehow manage to escape this problem. I wouldn't say I've ever noticed this during the day on trains, seems more like people boarding trains already leathered and keeping their sesh going during the journey home.

I'm not against this policy, even if it is only a minority who are the problem, it gives the majority the right to travel in a more safe and comfortable way on their journey.

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Agree with this. I can see both sides to an extent as I've enjoyed a wee carry out or 2 on the train in the past but at the end of the day, it's public transport, not a public bar on wheels.

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/scotlan...-train-drivers

Still looking at a rail shutdown. One of the problems of the track and trains being run by different govts.


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If you really want a drink on the train, you’ll find ways round it, e.g. vodka and lemonade in a 7up bottle or wine in a KeepCup, etc.

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Originally Posted by overdrive

If you really want a drink on the train, you’ll find ways round it, e.g. vodka and lemonade in a 7up bottle or wine in a KeepCup, etc.

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Or just openly do it like everyone is now, including mhairi black mp

Storm in a can of t cup

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Originally Posted by overdrive

If you really want a drink on the train, you’ll find ways round it, e.g. vodka and lemonade in a 7up bottle or wine in a KeepCup, etc.

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That's for jakies though.

What about your average couple or punter just wanting a beer or glass of wine on a Friday as they go away for the weekend? That's the people who are being punished here.

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Originally Posted by Since90+2

That's for jakies though.

What about your average couple or punter just wanting a beer or glass of wine on a Friday as they go away for the weekend? That's the people who are being punished here.

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That’s always the case. The action of a minority make life more difficult for everyone. The price of your pint when you go up town is massively inflated to cover the cost of the security at the door, the cctv they have installed and all the paperwork the bar has to do to satisfy the licensing board that the premises are safe. You have to pay this inflated price even if you have never been in a bar fight in your life.


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If its me getting pished on the train, thats fine.

if its other folk, not so much.

On balance, i agree with the ban and want it to continue, but i will continue to ignore it myself.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

That’s always the case. The action of a minority make life more difficult for everyone. The price of your pint when you go up town is massively inflated to cover the cost of the security at the door, the cctv they have installed and all the paperwork the bar has to do to satisfy the licensing board that the premises are safe. You have to pay this inflated price even if you have never been in a bar fight in your life.


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I wonder how other parts of the UK manage to cope with alcohol being allowed but somehow it's simply not permissable in Scotland.

As far as I'm aware it's allowed in NI, Wales, England and also the ROI. Scotland is the outlier here.

Maybe we're all just too daft and stupid to be trusted with the bevvy?

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Originally Posted by DinkyTwo

I don't think there's any substantial evidence that alcohol is the driving factor behind the antisocial behaviour, though. And that's really what I take an issue with - instead of getting to the root of the problem, we've jumped straight to taking away rights from the general public.

Scotrail are now also publically owned. So any decision they make is by default, endorsed by the Scottish Government.

If this was the Tories, we'd (quite rightly) be saying that this sort of heavy handed approach to governance was a prequel to fascism.

First it was no drinking on the street.
Then minimum pricing
Then no drinking on trains...

What's next? Drinking prohibited after 10pm? Restaurants can't serve a glass of wine with your dinner?





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There is substantial evidence alcohol is a key factor in all sorts of anti social or violent incidents across the country.

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Originally Posted by JimBHibees

There is substantial evidence alcohol is a key factor in all sorts of anti social or violent incidents across the country.

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But banning on trains isn't going to stop it being banned in society. Thus the number of incidents not only didn't drop they increased since the ban.

If they had decreased they would have bigged up how good they were, but it didn't

I was on a train home from Inverness a few weeks back. I completely forgot about the ban so had bought some cans to drink on the journey home.

I cracked open a can, buried my head in a book and didn't think anything of it until my ticket was checked and I was told it was no longer allowed. I immediately apologised and explained I had just forgotten. The guy had a look around the carriage (myself and half a dozen others max) and said it was ok as long as I was discreet and off he went. A bit common sense from him and apologising without becoming confrontational from me and everything was totally fine. Simple really.

I think there is a balance to be had. By all means have complete bans on potentially volatile services. The last train from Glasgow to Edinburgh on a Saturday for example (although if people have been bevvying all day I'm not sure how effective stopping them having one last can is going to be). However the vast, vast majority of people I see drinking on trains are no bother at all. Most people sit quietly and enjoy a drink, bigger groups can be loud but are generally harmless. In recent times I can't say I've felt any less safe on LNER and Cross Country service that permit alcohol (and appear to have more drinkers because they are generally speaking carrying people going on longer journeys) than I have on Scotrail services which are dry.

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Originally Posted by Callum_62

The right to get steaming and shout nonsense on the train

Fascism!



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Are you not capable of having a can of beer without getting steaming and shouting nonsense?

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Originally Posted by Santa Cruz

Alcohol is a driving factor behind anti social behaviour in general situations, like pubs, parties, family get togethers etc. I don't really see how trains would somehow manage to escape this problem. I wouldn't say I've ever noticed this during the day on trains, seems more like people boarding trains already leathered and keeping their sesh going during the journey home.

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You don't think it's more to do with the person who's drinking, rather than alcohol itself?

Most people I know are perfectly capable of having a few drinks without smashing things up or getting into a fight.

You'd likely be kicked out of a pub, party, family gathering if you couldn't behave yourself. Why should that be any different if it's on a train?

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I'm not against this policy, even if it is only a minority who are the problem, it gives the majority the right to travel in a more safe and comfortable way on their journey.

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I guess this is where we fundamentally disagree. I don't really think that the booze ban makes much of a difference to the train journey environment. It's still like the wild west at times after a night out, partially because the people who are likely to behave antisocially when drunk are already at that stage when they get on but also because there's rarely anything in the way of security or police presence, which further emboldens people looking to carry on.

I don't like the idea that the majority should be restricted due to the misbehaviour of a few, but at least if we could see that it was having a meaningful impact then it'd be easier to accept.




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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

I was on a train home from Inverness a few weeks back. I completely forgot about the ban so had bought some cans to drink on the journey home.

I cracked open a can, buried my head in a book and didn't think anything of it until my ticket was checked and I was told it was no longer allowed. I immediately apologised and explained I had just forgotten. The guy had a look around the carriage (myself and half a dozen others max) and said it was ok as long as I was discreet and off he went. A bit common sense from him and apologising without becoming confrontational from me and everything was totally fine. Simple really.

I think there is a balance to be had. By all means have complete bans on potentially volatile services. The last train from Glasgow to Edinburgh on a Saturday for example (although if people have been bevvying all day I'm not sure how effective stopping them having one last can is going to be). However the vast, vast majority of people I see drinking on trains are no bother at all. Most people sit quietly and enjoy a drink, bigger groups can be loud but are generally harmless. In recent times I can't say I've felt any less safe on LNER and Cross Country service that permit alcohol (and appear to have more drinkers because they are generally speaking carrying people going on longer journeys) than I have on Scotrail services which are dry.

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:agree:

The other side of the coin with the volatile services is that it's too overwhelming to police.

I was on a train last year through to Glasgow and it coincided with a Celtic game and a music festival - the train was filled to the brim with people drinking dragon soup and suchlike.

There's probably just a middle section that'll actually get targeted. Which I guess is reason enough to not be too upset by the rules staying - just frustrating that'll be the group of reasoned people who just conduct themselves in line with the rules that'll be restricted in their actions.

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Originally Posted by Hibbyradge

What?

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How many times have you kicked off on the train after a few drinks?

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Originally Posted by DinkyTwo

You don't think it's more to do with the person who's drinking, rather than alcohol itself?

Most people I know are perfectly capable of having a few drinks without smashing things up or getting into a fight.

You'd likely be kicked out of a pub, party, family gathering if you couldn't behave yourself. Why should that be any different if it's on a train?



I guess this is where we fundamentally disagree. I don't really think that the booze ban makes much of a difference to the train journey environment. It's still like the wild west at times after a night out, partially because the people who are likely to behave antisocially when drunk are already at that stage when they get on but also because there's rarely anything in the way of security or police presence, which further emboldens people looking to carry on.

I don't like the idea that the majority should be restricted due to the misbehaviour of a few, but at least if we could see that it was having a meaningful impact then it'd be easier to accept.




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I don’t think there are any staff on a Scotrail train to kick people off though. They likely have to call the police.


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