The ultimate irony is that it is a Jewish state acting in this way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
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The ultimate irony is that it is a Jewish state acting in this way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Horrible that a nation helped be due to a genocide against them can spend the following hundred years committing genocideQuote:
Originally Posted by JimBHibees
"For your benefit, learn from our tragedy. It is not a written law that the next victims must be Jews. It can also be other people. We saw it begin in Germany with Jews, but people from more than twenty other nations were also murdered." — Simon Wiesenthal
Agree. Great quote from Simon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Once this war between Israel and Hamas is over, a deeper conflict looms | Jonathan Freedland | The Guardian
Senior Hamas official Ghazi Hamad told Lebanese TV that his organisation was determined to repeat the massacre of 7 October, when the men of Hamas murdered some 1,400 Israelis, most of them civilians, torturing and maiming their victims in ways too cruel to recount. Hamad promised that 7 October was “just the first time, and there will be a second, a third, a fourth”. He was asked if Hamas was bent on Israel’s annihilation. “Yes, of course,” he replied.
well there's a green light for Israel
https://x.com/yonahlieberman/status/...dxJXScFNwz8V4A
Good from Obama. Shame he was so disengaged on foreign policy his whole presidency.
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No doubt he will get hammered for his comments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
TBF having a back door to Hamas is critical in bringing some sort of peace to the region.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
This cannot be solved by military action. Diplomacy and talking is the only way. For that you need an in to Hamas. This provides that.
J
It seems all the Hamas leadership are worth a bit of money and live in Qatar etc.
That’s real solidarity with their people
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67327079
This story is absolutely wild and I really don’t know what to make of it.
That’s been common practice for the IDF for years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lendo
It explains why the death toll seems low (a horrific 10,000) so far compared to the level of devastation.
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I read a story today where Israel is attacking a hospital in Gaza City. There used drones and other intelligence to verify there are no civilians in the hospital but there is 100 hundred Hamas fighters in there. The journalists can see rockets and gunfire coming from the hospital but Israel won’t flatten it because it would give Hamas and pro-Palestinians propaganda to say another hospital has been flattened.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
It’s obviously absolutely brutal for the Palestinians. Hopefully they can do away with Hamas, have a ceasefire and try to get some two state solution functioning again
Has the two state solution ever functionedQuote:
Originally Posted by Hibs4185
Another view on attacking hospitalsQuote:
Originally Posted by Hibs4185
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveb...za-bombardment
Makes it hard to understand why so many are saying the figure is actually too high. FWIW, when they find all the bodies under the rubble it will be higherQuote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
When you see the devastation, it’s hard to believe it’s only 10,000.Quote:
Originally Posted by MKHIBEE
It will climb as hunger and disease start to take hold.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lendo
I agree with you, really don’t know to make of it
Roger Waters says we don't know if Hamas did the October 7th massacre and it could be a false flag. Some of them literally live streamed from their personal social media, Hamas government spokesman admitted it, hundreds of videos cctv and videos made by the terrorists themselves. Absolute tit of a man. It shouldn't be a surprise mind as Putin's puppet also said he didn't believe the Bucha massacre happened or that Russia/Assad committed their crimes including gassing the Syrians. If you need a massacre denied, he's got man
https://www.thedailybeast.com/roger-...n=owned_social
https://x.com/bethrigby/status/17223...dxJXScFNwz8V4A
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I see Nick Griffin is saying it could have been Hibs fans that attacked a poppy seller at the weekend because we are pro Hamas and IRA, ****ing mentalist
Netanyahu upset that someone has let the end game be known.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...gs-notice.html
I don’t quite think that’s the end game as it would seriously affect the Israeli people as well given the close proximityQuote:
Originally Posted by MKHIBEE
Known weirdo Douglas Murray claiming Hamas are worse than the Nazis, as the Nazis "felt bad" about killing Jewish people.
What a crank.
https://twitter.com/waitmanb/status/...96msoUbBg&s=19
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One thing that never seems to be actually demonstrated to the public - is there actual proof that Hamas are operating underneath/inside hospitals?
I read a story in the Telegraph where the journalist could see hamas fighters firing from a hospital and also another video where supposedly Hamas fighters were firing at civilians leaving the hospital in order to get them back into it and act as shields.Quote:
Originally Posted by AgentDaleCooper
I suppose with all things in life, no one really knows how’s innocent and how’s telling the truth.
It does seem though that the majority of Palestinians what Hamas gone and out of their lives, which would suggest Hamas aren’t all that innocent.!
I’m almost certain they are in the main hospital and so are the Israelis. They have just about surrounded the hospital now and will be sending in troops very soon. A very risky operation that will cost IDF lives. They would not be doing that unless they felt sure that is where the Hamas HQ was.
The speed at which the Israelis are accomplishing their goals is impressive. Hamas are either weaker than expected or are trying to hide and hope they go away. That won’t work though. There appears to be no support for Hamas on the ground with the population. IDF managing to operate with very few casualties or resistance from ordinary Palestinians.
I suspect they will have full control of Gaza in next couple of weeks and will then try hand over to the PA.
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Good post. My worry would be, how many Hamas are escaping with the civilians, which is perhaps why the IDF are making good progress.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Just the 10,000 civilians 4,000 of which are children, but apart from that ayeQuote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Not counting the 1500 children missing. Plus adults.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mon Dieu4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mon Dieu4
I was talking about IDF casualties.Quote:
Originally Posted by MKHIBEE
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From what i've read they've also seen pretty limited Hamas casualties - roughly 60 was the figure i saw a few days ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Not a chance I've unfortunately seen dozens of drone videos of ifvs and barracks going. I'm sure many will have escaped but as was shown with ISIS it doesn't really matter if you destroy all their apparatus and kill or imprison the known leadersQuote:
Originally Posted by AgentDaleCooper
How many hostages are there that have not yet been released?
I can't help thinking about what the poor souls must be going through, and their families/friends as well.
Think it’s still about 200 or so. I doubt they are all coming back. Hopefully soon one side decides they need peace.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith_M
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I know it's not right to turn a blind eye but I genuinely just can't watch the news anymore.
The images on Channel 4 news of premature babies huddled together for warmth because there is no electricity to power incubators is just too much.
I just don't understand how anyone regardless of religious belief or lack thereof, political affiliation, nationality, race or whatever else can be cold to that. How can anyone with children, or indeed without children, watch that and argue about what is and isn't a 'just war'?
Hopefully the events of the last few weeks have a silver lining and the populace on both sides realise that extremism on either side is no answer.
Babies are now dying because they cannot get oxygen due to the lack of electricity and the Israeli army have started throwing injured patients out onto the streets from one hospital.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Boy
https://www.aljazeera.com/
I wouldn't classify that as turning a blind eye, mate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Boy
You clearly care a great deal about what's happening to these poor people and it's understandably hard to cope with watching this kind of thing on the news every night.
I think we all share that viewQuote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Boy
Corbyn no really putting his antisemitism critic's to bed on PM last night. Repeatedly refused to say that Hamas are terrorists. Why can't he just saying Isreal have been committing genocide for decades. This retaliation has been a disgusting slaughter. Hamas are also an evil homophobic, antisemitic hateful terrorists group and the region will only move forward when Hamas and Netanyahus right wing government is gone.
Corbyn also unfortunately doesn't realise with the Internet everything is stored. He denied saying our friends from Hamas in a meeting years ago. He did and also said " the idea that an organisation dedicated to the good of the Palestinian people and to bring peace political and social justice to the whole region should be labelled a terrorists organisation is a really big big historical mistake "
https://twitter.com/Zokko18/status/1724169002765742117
We all back the wrong horse but don't double down when it's clear they are ****. I'm not sure why it wasn't clear anyway amnesty said they banned homosexuality, killed opponents, backed honour killings of women, one of the lowest level of female employment in the world, removed all domestic violence laws.
Hamas are **** but and it's the Palestinians that suffer. They can't protest against the government and they are constantly bombed, shot, have the land stolen by the isrealis. A horrible existence with no clear path out.
Thats no different from many countries in the Middle East, unfortunately these countries get to hold major sporting events in an attempt to gloss over their policies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Yep they are ******g disgusting too, Saudi murder journalists have abhorrent human rights and like Israel they have been committing genocide in Yemen for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by MKHIBEE
exactly - Corbyn is being an absolute eejit here IMO, but even so, that doesn't actually make him any worse than any of the other politicians, in power or in opposition.Quote:
Originally Posted by MKHIBEE
That’s true, which is a sad reflection of the world we live in and how such regimes are bolstered by the support they receive from many western governments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
IDF in the main hospital now. Let’s hope this is quick and they get the Hamas fighters they are looking for.
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The US has said they believe their Intel that Hamas base is under the hospital and the EU release a joint statement condemning Hamas for using hospitals and human shield tactics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Definitely putting their cards on the table as it'll be proven one way or the other in the next week or so.
*******s.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Elections with a moderate Palestinian government being returned is key.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
One of the reasons it probably won’t happen.
And so it will continue. Isreal like the US led coalition in Iraq had no idea what to do once they “win”.
J
Whether that is true or not, and, as far as I’m aware, no evidence has been produced to back up Israeli claims, hospitals are protected under international agreements. Apparently all hospitals in Gaza are under attack, do they all have Hamas command posts under them? Hamas and Isreal leaders should be facing war crimes tribunal when this whole sorry slaughter is finishedQuote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
They lose their protection under international law if they are used for military purposes.Quote:
Originally Posted by MKHIBEE
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of which they have yet to provide evidence. Any action taken in such circumstances has to be proportionate to the objective. If premature babies and injured civilians dying is proportionate it doesn’t speak well for humanity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Why do you think they are putting so much effort and risking IDF lives in order to take this hospital rather than just flatten it?Quote:
Originally Posted by MKHIBEE
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It's not just Israel saying it. The US has said they have multiple sources including from the Palestinian side that Hamas are using hospitals as bases and for weapons storage. Unicef said today Hamas needs to stop using hospitals the EU too. In 2014 amnesty said Hamas used the base under the hospital to torture political prisoners.Quote:
Originally Posted by MKHIBEE
It'll all come out shortly but they putting their neck out if it is untrue.
of which they have yet to provide evidence. Any action taken in such circumstances has to be proportionate to the objective. If premature babies and injured civilians dying is proportionate it doesn’t speak well for humanity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Given how it's going I doubt many - if any - of the hostages will see daylight again.
https://x.com/yaaricohen/status/1724...dxJXScFNwz8V4AQuote:
Originally Posted by MKHIBEE
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Sadly, given the state of the world today, we have no idea if this is genuine or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Didn't look like much of a stash. Gun nuts in the US would have more weaponry.Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
They will need to come up with more than that to convince me it was being used as a command centre. The Israeli army are just as likely as Hamas to peddle lies and propaganda.Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
Rumours a deal brokered by Qatar and the US being considered by Israel. Hamas release 50 hostages in exchange for a limited pause.
[emoji1696]Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
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The US alsoQuote:
Originally Posted by MKHIBEE
I doubt anything will convince you.Quote:
Originally Posted by MKHIBEE
Why do you think the IDF is raiding the hospital?
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Could have been bloody for them, Islamic jihads have claimed IDF lives in the hospital campusQuote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
@michaelh992
al-Quds Brigades of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad: "Our fighters are still engaged in fierce clashes in the vicinity of the al-Shifa Complex and confirm that there have been casualties among the enemy forces" #Gaza
IDF released geolocated video of Hamas firing an RPG from the front of the hospital so loses could be believed
https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1724080276056277074
Evidence, corroborated by an agency such as the UN or the Red Cross will do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
The Israelis believe Hamas have a command bunker under the hospital. So their intelligence says. Pity their intelligence were asleep on the 7th. Hamas have asked that outside agencies such as the Red Cross, be allowed onsite to verify the claims. Isreal have refused. Whether that is true or not I don’t know. There are 2 main factions in this ****show and neither can claim the moral high ground. The innocents on both sides will suffer the most, long after the bullets and bombs stop, and the Palestinians will suffer further and greater oppression than they do now.
Hopefully Hamas are defeated and Netanyahu also, it's the only chance of peace.Quote:
Originally Posted by MKHIBEE
I notice Netanyahu is refusing to let the PA take over. It shouldn't be that ****bags choice.
Mohammed Dahlan trying to position himself as new leader, but u don't think he has the support of the people
https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20231112-could-exiled-former-palestinian-leader-mohammed-dahlan-lead-gaza-after-the-israel-hamas-war?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=x&utm_source=us er
It shouldn’t but it probably will beQuote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Definitely will be they are going to fully occupy under the name of peacekeeping. They will try to do a Russia/US and put in a puppet. Its genocide as perQuote:
Originally Posted by MKHIBEE
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
No doubt the Government and opposition will be falling over themselves to offer refuge to many of those who have nowhere to live and have been displaced.
I'd hope so.Quote:
Originally Posted by MKHIBEE
https://x.com/alexjrowell/status/172...dxJXScFNwz8V4A
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That's a powerful but depressing piece. Poor people have no chanceQuote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
That could have been written, with the same authority, by almost any one in the Gaza Strip. As you say, powerful and depressing, frighteningly soQuote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Isreal drip feeding evidence from Shifa hospital.
Drone footage from a tunnel in the hospital complex
https://twitter.com/manniefabian/sta...84025407451613
They have also released videos of hostages being brought into the hospital by Hamas fighters. It also shows captured IDF vehicles parked at the hospital.
https://twitter.com/manniefabian/sta...11040072474812
IDF announce two soldiers have died so they must be confident of Hamas presence if they are risking a ground operation.
This is all very separate from them flattening the rest of Gaza city indiscriminately though
Who killed the IDF soldiers in the hospital? A couple of maternity nurses? It’s clear Hamas were in the hospital.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
As you say, just because Hamas commit war crimes, doesn’t give Isreal a pass.
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Uncorroborated evidence. The shaft and the tunnel were filmed with a break in the filming.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
It is not separate from flattening Gaza indiscriminately, it’s part of the same process. They have been deliberately bombing schools, hospitals, places of safety used by Palestinians. Not because they think Hamas is using them as human shields but to ensure that no Palestinian can consider themselves safe. All allowed by many in the west, including our own government and opposition, who just repeat the mantra that “ Israel must be allowed to defend itself”. As if the previous 75 years of oppression never happened
I saw a big following commentator say the footage was separate and that the hospital staff would have noticed concrete getting poured. They probably did, the same way they would have noticed they Hamad terrorists bringing in hostages. They also probably value their lives. Someone sent him this separate footage of the same tunnel with concrete, he sort of says well it needs to have been used recently for it to be justified..Quote:
Originally Posted by MKHIBEE
https://twitter.com/EylonALevy/status/1726291665478979777/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1726291665478979777&curre ntTweetUser=EylonALevy
I don't know what's trying to be proven is it that Israel is bad we know that as they have flattened schools mosques and residential buildings with no thought of consequence. Or is it to say rapist, homophobic murderers of thousands of innocent Jews Hamas aren't bad?
It's like the Hamas bomb that hit the hospital courtyard it let's Israel say don't believe anything bad against us as Hamas was lying. The focus should be on neighbourhoods flattened
Ita all bad but the, mainly western agencies, attempts to dehumanise the Palestinians whilst at the same time giving the Israeli’s free hand to do whatever they like make all the hand wringing and faux sympathy stick in my craw. Call the Israel state out for what it is. They don’t seem to have a problem doing so with Hamas. Whilst more innocents die.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
I heard an interview with a British doctor who worked at the hospital. He said there were areas which were out of bounds. Everyone knew why but no one said out of fear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
I did think the tunnel was a bit far away from the hospital to be deeemed part of it, but there’s just too much evidence that Hamas do use it for military purposes.
Yes it could be planted. But with everything in life, you need to look at both sides of the arguement and their evidence and make your own judgement.
What “evidence” have you seen that backs that up?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibs4185
I don't think they will use the actual hospital and have a door saying Hamas tunnels that would be daft. I also listened to the English doctor on france24 who said there was always Hamas presence inside and areas that you were told not to go into. The cctv of the Thai man being walked into the hospital by half a dozen Hamas who have conversations with doctors. The IDF vehicles captured are in CCTV videos being parked inside the hospital compound. Two videos of a tunnel 30 metres from the hospital front door inside the hospital grounds. Amnesty said five years ago they had evidence political prisoners were tortured in the hospital. The UN and the EU have said they believe Hamas is using hospitals as military positions. CCTV footage of a Hamas fighter walking into the hospital last week with a rocket propelled granade over his shoulder. Palestinian Islamic Jihad said they hit IDF in the hospital.Quote:
Originally Posted by MKHIBEE
I don't believe Israel for a second about anything but you have to say why are the IDF doing a militarily risky ground operation costing lives when they could just continue the ground operation through the strip. On the other hand you could believe Hamas
Humanitarian Ceasefire announced imminently a few sources are saying. It'll be in return for 50-100 hostages released.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...63bfc1ddfe.jpg
Interesting wording used when it comes to describing Palestinians compared to Isrealis.
Israelis are hostages, Palestinians are prisoners.
Isrealis are children and mothers, Palestinians are women and minors.
I expect better from RTE.
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A discussion on the language used when describing the actions of the 2 different factions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
https://www.aljazeera.com/program/in...rael-palestine
I guess they would say because one are hostages whilst the other have been convicted or waiting to be convicted of crimes. Whether they trials or detentions are fair is worse than doubtful knowing Israel. Israel has 140 under 18s in detention with appallingly 8 of them aged 14-16 the rest 16-18. All arrested for security breaches, which could be anything. Hopefully all get freedQuote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Isreal is the only country in the world that tries children in military courts. They can get 20 years for throwing a stoneQuote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Possibly a better outcome for them than being shot to death, which I've unfortunately seen and not just this yearQuote:
Originally Posted by MKHIBEE
.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Several Israeli politicians and leaders have called Palestinians “sub human animals”, and thry treat them as such . Netanyahu was getting stick for allowing 1 tanker of fuel into Gaza per day. Beyond any sensible reasoning
Ceasefire agreed 4 days for 50 hostages, 1 day for every further 10 hostages released. 240 hostages so could give 20 days of Ceasefire.
Releasing prisoners was always going to be the quickest route to de-escalation. I'm sure both sides will want to start up again as soon as they can but this should hopefully let the Palestinians escape.
Although Jordan has said if one Palestinians refugee is brought into Jordan via Israel they will see it as a declaration of war by Israel. With Egypt saying similar I don't see anywhere for the Palestinians to safely go
Perhaps if they all take to small boats and start landing on other countries' shores, we will hear less parroting by Western leaders of 'Israel has the right to defend itself'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
On the day Isreal and Hamas agree a ceasefire, the Scottish Tories vote against it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
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Isreal release footage of the tunnel directly under the hospital, they enter a new shaft five foot from the hospital
https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1727476410803953868
A walk through of some of the complex, air conditioning, kitchens, toilets, communication systems
https://twitter.com/breeadail/status...55806981877792
Another tunnel starting from inside a building in the hospital complex
https://twitter.com/manniefabian/sta...86341800075366
How have the IDF managed to build all those tunnels in such little time? They’ve only been in control of the hospital for 2-3 days 🙈Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
Edit…sky news have just shown some of these tunnels and said that Israel originally built them? But it’s a building a picture of Hamas using them as shields
Their usual expertise is in knocking down Palestinian houses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibs4185
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Israel originally built the hospital if I remember correctly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibs4185
I'd like to see that report as I don't think anyone is saying that the new video is anything but Hamas tunnels, the design is consistent with all the other miles of tunnels. Israel updated the hospital in the 80s these are clearly being used now regardless, modern air conditioning units, phones, plumbing and tvs. Nathan Russer from bellingcat has geolocated hundreds of meters of it from the pics and videos. It travels under the hospital and off under Gaza. Israel didn't make the vast system under the cityQuote:
Originally Posted by Hibs4185
https://twitter.com/Nrg8000/status/1727672195101667499
.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
According to a former Israeli PM, they built the tunnels under Al Shifa. This has been rumoured for years
https://truthout.org/articles/bunker...srael-pm-says/
Think there is an enormous tunnel infrastructure under Gaza to Egypt predominantly. Has been a thriving economy in the past.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibs4185
No he said they built bunkers to extend the hospital, that was known it was full reinforced concrete. He never said they built the tunnel system. Hamas denied there was any tunnels underneath, wouldn't they say yeah there is Israel built them.Quote:
Originally Posted by MKHIBEE
They were saying they don't exist, then when found they said it was two separate videos, they are silent now that it's obvious there is a vast tunnel network. It'll be excavated more but some will still die on the weird hill that Hamas's miles of tunnels don't go under the hospital.
Even if they weren't built by Hamas although they obviously were. They are clearly using it decades after Israel has gone and have secret entrances inside buildings
Saw this estimation, they are absolutely vast and under most of Gaza city. That's no excuse for Israel to flatten the city with disregard for the livesQuote:
Originally Posted by JimBHibees
One would imagine that underground bunkers would need connecting to each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
https://theintercept.com/2023/11/21/...-hamas-israel/
That biased piece is before Israel released its new videos with the tunnels going for hundreds of meters away from the hospital. They are also the same as the other Hamas tunnels.Quote:
Originally Posted by MKHIBEE
I saw an Al Jazeera piece yesterday saying the video released on Sunday was faked. They say it was 2 videos spliced i believe you said similar. They say the first shaft was beside the hospital then they cut to clear hamas tunnels. They have been silent since Israel released dozens of videos showing this wasn't the case and there is a labyrinth of tunnels that also goes underneath.
Regardless of when they were built they clearly have modern upgrades like aircon and telephones. They are under the hospital and have multiple exit points. The evidence gets clearer daily
It’s gone beyond who said this and who said what. It’s difficult to argue now that Hamas aren’t using tunnels under the hospital, whoever may have built what originally. Such actions by Hamas affect the protection offered to the hospitals in times of conflict . Hamas use as a military compound does not give the Israelis carte Blanche to do what they like in and around the hospital. It’s all about “proportionality’. IMO Isreal have acted outwith reasonable proportionality. As they have done for 75 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7