The Trans Rights Debate

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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

What do you think of Mridul Wadha and his statement about women who want biologically female support following rape or sexual assault? Are they appropriate for someone who is head of a rape crisis centre?

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Disgusting of course women should be allowed to be seen by only biological females if they want, at their most vulnerable point. Trans rights have thankfully came such a long way. But surely trans can accept some women's choices.

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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

What do you think of Mridul Wadha and his statement about women who want biologically female support following rape or sexual assault? Are they appropriate for someone who is head of a rape crisis centre?

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My view is that the CEO of a rape crisis centre should be a woman, not a transwoman, i'e not a man who identifies as a woman. I don't think that a man who identifies as a woman should be telling woman to reframe their trauma. Whatever spin is put on it when he says things like "even bigots get raped" And that Woman who don't want Mridul Wadha in the room or to be anywhere near him will need to be re-educated, it becomes clear what he is doing is, he is using traumatized women as a way of pushing trans activism IMO

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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

What do you think of Mridul Wadha and his statement about women who want biologically female support following rape or sexual assault? Are they appropriate for someone who is head of a rape crisis centre?

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Females (and males) should be allowed to seek support or medical treatment from someone of the sex they feel most comfortable being seen by. Why would anyone seek to further traumatise or cause discomfort or upset to another human being? The priority has to be the feelings of the victim or patient, nobody else's. You'd think those working in rape crisis, medical support or the law enforcement agencies would put this 100% first and foremost.

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Originally Posted by 147lothian

My view is that the CEO of a rape crisis centre should be a woman, not a transwoman, i'e not a man who identifies as a woman. I don't think that a man who identifies as a woman should be telling woman to reframe their trauma. Whatever spin is put on it when he says things like "even bigots get raped" And that Woman who don't want Mridul Wadha in the room or anywhere near him will need to be re-educated, it becomes clear what he is doing is, he is using traumatized women as a way of pushing trans activism IMO

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I totally agree. How on earth this guy got appointed I'll never understand.

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Originally Posted by LewysGot2

Females (and males) should be allowed to seek support or medical treatment from someone of the sex they feel most comfortable being seen by. Why would anyone seek to further traumatise or cause discomfort or upset to another human being? The priority has to be the feelings of the victim or patient, nobody else's. You'd think those working in rape crisis, medical support or the law enforcement agencies would put this 100% first and foremost.

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I suspect many of the staff who work at ERCC share the same view.

It's heartening to see so many well thought out replies on all the different angles on Trans Rights discussion on here.

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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

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Good post.

The path this takes us down is alarming to me. Thought police, hate crime, wokeism, control. The enemies of freedom of speech.

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If this isn't an issue one doesn't spend much time assessing it would probably be quite easy to assume the extreme views of Slater, Harvie et al are shared by the trans community. That's far from the case:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-scottish-greens-are-in-cloud-cuckoo-land-on-trans-rights

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Originally Posted by He's here!

If this isn't an issue one doesn't spend much time assessing it would probably be quite easy to assume the extreme views of Slater, Harvie et al are shared by the trans community. That's far from the case:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...n-trans-rights

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You've linked one person's views. How does that demonstrate that the views of Harvie and Slater are not shared by the trans community? :confused:

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Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

You've linked one person's views. How does that demonstrate that the views of Harvie and Slater are not shared by the trans community? :confused:

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To say your a bigot if a lesbian woman doesn't want to go with a trans women is just f'ing mental. The language used by the greens in attacking the snp was ridiculous and I'm glad Joanna Cherry hit back.

I know one trans person and he's so easy going. He says obviously some people forget and call me her, even her mum. But as long as they are nice she doesn't care. The only thing he's bothered about is the waiting time for the operations. Nhs is years so he's paying thousands to do privately

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

To say your a bigot if a lesbian woman doesn't want to go with a trans women is just f'ing mental. The language used by the greens in attacking the snp was ridiculous and I'm glad Joanna Cherry hit back.

I know one trans person and he's so easy going. He says obviously some people forget and call me her, even her mum. But as long as they are nice she doesn't care. The only thing he's bothered about is the waiting time for the operations. Nhs is years so he's paying thousands to do privately

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The video I put a link to of Jude talking about the time and cost involved confirmed your last point. 5 years from referral to first assessment for example, and 10k for top surgery alone.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

The video I put a link to of Jude talking about the time and cost involved confirmed your last point. 5 years from referral to first assessment for example, and 10k for top surgery alone.

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He's paying for his top surgery himself soon, had to get a loan. Terrible. You think how much resources nhs uses for people drinking and smoking, or battering and stabbing each other. More funding should be available for people transitioning without getting in huge debt

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

He's paying for his top surgery himself soon, had to get a loan. Terrible. You think how much resources nhs uses for people drinking and smoking, or battering and stabbing each other. More funding should be available for people transitioning without getting in huge debt

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Jude has done a crowd funding for his surgery, but he has a lot of followers on YouTube and in the crafter community. He is also unsure if he will have lower surgery.

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Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

You've linked one person's views. How does that demonstrate that the views of Harvie and Slater are not shared by the trans community? :confused:

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Yeh, fair enough, I should probably have said that their views aren't shared by everyone in the trans community, much as they give the impression they are some sort of elected spokespeople for everyone who is trans in Scotland. As a transgender secondary school science teacher and journalist, though, Debbie Hayton brings a more balanced perspective than the likes of Slater, while a Google search will yield plenty of examples of transgender people who don't agree with gender self-identification. There are also plenty who wholeheartedly disagree with the demonisation of J K Rowling for stating some fundamental truths around biology.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

Yeh, fair enough, I should probably have said that their views aren't shared by everyone in the trans community, much as they give the impression they are some sort of elected spokespeople for everyone who is trans in Scotland. As a transgender secondary school science teacher and journalist, though, Debbie Hayton brings a more balanced perspective than the likes of Slater, while a Google search will yield plenty of examples of transgender people who don't agree with gender self-identification. There are also plenty who wholeheartedly disagree with the demonisation of J K Rowling for stating some fundamental truths around biology.

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Hard to see how a broad consensus, or anything like it, on most of these issues is going to emerge anytime soon.

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Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

Hard to see how a broad consensus, or anything like it, on most of these issues is going to emerge anytime soon.

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Agreed, though this isn't like party politics where consensus is understandably hard to reach. It's a minority of obsessives trying to impose their OTT views on a society which, by and large, would otherwise be largely untroubled by this issue.

It's a shame there are in some circles a sectarian clash between feminists and trans people. They should be on the same side, division allows the bigots to drive a wedge between them. Of course debate is a good thing, but, as ever, it's the manner of debate that is key. When it becomes hateful and spiteful nobody wins but those who oppose both groups.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

Yeh, fair enough, I should probably have said that their views aren't shared by everyone in the trans community, much as they give the impression they are some sort of elected spokespeople for everyone who is trans in Scotland. As a transgender secondary school science teacher and journalist, though, Debbie Hayton brings a more balanced perspective than the likes of Slater, while a Google search will yield plenty of examples of transgender people who don't agree with gender self-identification. There are also plenty who wholeheartedly disagree with the demonisation of J K Rowling for stating some fundamental truths around biology.

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Good post.

The politicisation of this issue is alarming, as are the attempts to close down opposition to the legislative approach through accusations of transphobia etc.

Female athletes feel let down by their sports bodies and want to compete with trans athletes.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/61157886


Interesting that she feels her medals are diminished because women's sports are considered lesser.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Female athletes feel let down by their sports bodies and want to compete with trans athletes.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/61157886


Interesting that she feels her medals are diminished because women's sports are considered lesser.

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She says they have been treated unfair but they do have a physical advantage in strength and stamina. She's saying biology does matter, because it does. Women aren't slower than men because they try less hard, its biology. It's not just about testosterone, it's muscle mass, bone density, stamina ect. Just make the mens competitions an open category

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

She says they have been treated unfair but they do have a physical advantage in strength and stamina. She's saying biology does matter, because it does. Women aren't slower than men because they try less hard, its biology. It's not just about testosterone, it's muscle mass, bone density, stamina ect. Just make the mens competitions an open category

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You're correct. I used to compete with Edinburgh Athletic. Up until I was about 14/15 years old I could beat all the boys in my year group at sprints and middle distance (obviously never competed against them at club level as separate competitions for boys/girls). As soon as we passed that age, a few boys who had developed more physically began beating me.

More generally, I personally don't know any transgender people that I am aware off, so have found this thread really interesting. It's given me a greater understanding of the concerns raised on both sides.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

She says they have been treated unfair but they do have a physical advantage in strength and stamina. She's saying biology does matter, because it does. Women aren't slower than men because they try less hard, its biology. It's not just about testosterone, it's muscle mass, bone density, stamina ect. Just make the mens competitions an open category

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Does she say that she doesn't want to compete with trans athletes or not?

Does she say that it's unfair to female athletes?

Does she say that it's unfair on trans athletes?


I think she is more an authority on the subject than you or I.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Does she say that she doesn't want to compete with trans athletes or not?

Does she say that it's unfair to female athletes?

Does she say that it's unfair on trans athletes?


I think she is more an authority on the subject than you or I.

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She's being pretty clear? Biological advantages affect fairness. She wants fairness. She doesn't want any witch hubts but she's very clear fairness is paramount.

She's saying the leadership of sport has allowed a pretty rotten set of circumstances to put a number of people in the crosshairs...

It's an excellent and very clear statement.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Does she say that she doesn't want to compete with trans athletes or not?

Does she say that it's unfair to female athletes?

Does she say that it's unfair on trans athletes?


I think she is more an authority on the subject than you or I.

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She says she wants to play if it's fair and there is a clear biological advantage to people who went through puberty as a male.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Female athletes feel let down by their sports bodies and want to compete with trans athletes.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/61157886


Interesting that she feels her medals are diminished because women's sports are considered lesser.

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She says that her medals are diminished because the governing bodies are telling her that trans females have no physical advantage which makes the implication that female athletes have to compete in a separate category because they don't try hard enough.

"I read this and hear that my world titles, my Olympic medals, and the champions jerseys I have at home, were all won in a category of people who simply don't try as hard as the men.

That losing to male androgenisation is not about biology, but mindset. They are wrong.

The retained advantage of people who have gone through male puberty in strength, stamina, and physique, with or without testosterone suppression, has been well documented."

She wants to compete with trans athletes with one caveat,

I'd like us all to continue welcoming trans athletes into our clubs, our training sessions, and our races. But I'd like us to do all this without sacrificing one of the foundational pillars of sport: fairness."

I don't see how the two things she says are compatible with the argument that trans women should be allowed to compete in the female category in sports.

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Originally Posted by Sergio sledge

She says that her medals are diminished because the governing bodies are telling her that trans females have no physical advantage which makes the implication that female athletes have to compete in a separate category because they don't try hard enough.

"I read this and hear that my world titles, my Olympic medals, and the champions jerseys I have at home, were all won in a category of people who simply don't try as hard as the men.

That losing to male androgenisation is not about biology, but mindset. They are wrong.

The retained advantage of people who have gone through male puberty in strength, stamina, and physique, with or without testosterone suppression, has been well documented."

She wants to compete with trans athletes with one caveat,

I'd like us all to continue welcoming trans athletes into our clubs, our training sessions, and our races. But I'd like us to do all this without sacrificing one of the foundational pillars of sport: fairness."

I don't see how the two things she says are compatible with the argument that trans women should be allowed to compete in the female category in sports.

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It's possible that the various sports governing bodies are already looking into the introduction of a calculator for fairness for events, I don't know, but there are already tools to compare performances across ages and sex. The only thing missing is 2 categories for trans men and women.


http://www.mastersathletics.net/index.php?id=2595


Something like this could be adapted to include the trans community.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

It's possible that the various sports governing bodies are already looking into the introduction of a calculator for fairness for events, I don't know, but there are already tools to compare performances across ages and sex. The only thing missing is 2 categories for trans men and women.


http://www.mastersathletics.net/index.php?id=2595


Something like this could be adapted to include the trans community.

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If there was an 100 metre sprint I doubt the trans athletes would be happy starting 10 metres back or whatever. Surely you just make the male categories an open category.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

If there was an 100 metre sprint I doubt the trans athletes would be happy starting 10 metres back or whatever. Surely you just make the male categories an open category.

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Yes. Whereas the women's category is currently the open one - trans men and trans women both opting for it. That says a lot in itself.

Nobody is stopping trans athletes from taking part in sport but inclusion of male bodied athletes in female sport will impact on female participation. Inclusion or fairness (and for who because there's a definite conflict here)...that's the question.

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Originally Posted by Sergio sledge

She says that her medals are diminished because the governing bodies are telling her that trans females have no physical advantage which makes the implication that female athletes have to compete in a separate category because they don't try hard enough.

"I read this and hear that my world titles, my Olympic medals, and the champions jerseys I have at home, were all won in a category of people who simply don't try as hard as the men.

That losing to male androgenisation is not about biology, but mindset. They are wrong.

The retained advantage of people who have gone through male puberty in strength, stamina, and physique, with or without testosterone suppression, has been well documented."

She wants to compete with trans athletes with one caveat,

I'd like us all to continue welcoming trans athletes into our clubs, our training sessions, and our races. But I'd like us to do all this without sacrificing one of the foundational pillars of sport: fairness."

I don't see how the two things she says are compatible with the argument that trans women should be allowed to compete in the female category in sports.

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She could be meaning trans men in female sport as opposed to trans women? They are far more legitimate competition for her as they are biologically female.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

If there was an 100 metre sprint I doubt the trans athletes would be happy starting 10 metres back or whatever. Surely you just make the male categories an open category.

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Nobody mentioned starting 10m or whatever back. This isn't the powderhall new year sprint 😂😂😂

I do Parkrun and my age grade percentage is just above 50% older women with the same time get a higher age grade than me, also a woman who is the same age as me and the same time gets a higher percentage. This is a universally used format and could easily be adapted for any event.


It really frustrates me that people only want to see the problems and not think about the possible solutions.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Nobody mentioned starting 10m or whatever back. This isn't the powderhall new year sprint 😂😂😂

I do Parkrun and my age grade percentage is just above 50% older women with the same time get a higher age grade than me, also a woman who is the same age as me and the same time gets a higher percentage. This is a universally used format and could easily be adapted for any event.


It really frustrates me that people only want to see the problems and not think about the possible solutions.

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Sorry for my ignorance on park running but is it competitive? I thought it was just fun running.

Also, not sure how age is factored in? Can you expand? Thanks.

There is obvious concern about middle aged male bodied athletes being still advantaged enough to compete at elite level female sport. How does age get factored into park running? Thanks in anticipation 👍

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Nobody mentioned starting 10m or whatever back. This isn't the powderhall new year sprint 😂😂😂

I do Parkrun and my age grade percentage is just above 50% older women with the same time get a higher age grade than me, also a woman who is the same age as me and the same time gets a higher percentage. This is a universally used format and could easily be adapted for any event.


It really frustrates me that people only want to see the problems and not think about the possible solutions.

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Your being hard work for the sake of it. It's still the same, women loses time or trans women has time added. Trans women won't want that. It also only works for races or distance. What about football, rugby, mma, boxing, tennis ect ect. Even in say 400 meters, all the excitement is gone as you have to wait until post race calculations.

It really frustrates me when people ignore the obvious problems and biological differences. Can I ask you, would you be happy for a trans women to fight a woman in mma

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Your being hard work for the sake of it. It's still the same, women loses time or trans women has time added. Trans women won't want that. It also only works for races or distance. What about football, rugby, mma, boxing, tennis ect ect. Even in say 400 meters, all the excitement is gone as you have to wait until post race calculations.

It really frustrates me when people ignore the obvious problems and biological differences. Can I ask you, would you be happy for a trans women to fight a woman in mma

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There are definitely sports where full inclusion is possible- horse 🐎 based events like racing, show jumping 3 day eventing etc. Also things like driving based sports, pool, snooker and darts. All of these places it already happens. But one size definitely doesn't fit all across sports.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Does this also apply to transsexual women?

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Yes, biological sex is immutable

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Your being hard work for the sake of it. It's still the same, women loses time or trans women has time added. Trans women won't want that. It also only works for races or distance. What about football, rugby, mma, boxing, tennis ect ect. Even in say 400 meters, all the excitement is gone as you have to wait until post race calculations.

It really frustrates me when people ignore the obvious problems and biological differences. Can I ask you, would you be happy for a trans women to fight a woman in mma

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It is not time that is added in the age range system!

https://www.parkrun.org.uk/faskallyf...tegoryrecords/

These are the fastest times for each age range at my local Parkrun. As anyone can run there needs to be a way of comparing times taken over the 5km course. The fastest time is 17mins 28 seconds by a male between 30 and 34 which equates to an age grade of 74.05%, but a woman between 35 and 39 who ran a time of 18mins 20 seconds gets an age grade of 81.55% which would put her in a final position ahead of the man.

sorting the results by age grade has a woman of 60 to 64 at the top on an age grade of 82.44%. You don't need to apply any handicap system to get the adjusted positions because world athletics has already set this up.

Obviously it only works in individual sports, but the other sports mentioned, cycling and swimming, for example could use a similar system.

For those that want to know more.


https://support.parkrun.com/hc/en-us...s-age-grading-


I've no idea what mma is, I can't stand the use of acronyms online as if everyone knows what you are talking about!



EDIT: Swimming has something similar.

https://www.swimming.org/masters/masters-swimming-age-adjustment/

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

It is not time that is added in the age range system!

https://www.parkrun.org.uk/faskallyf...tegoryrecords/

These are the fastest times for each age range at my local Parkrun. As anyone can run there needs to be a way of comparing times taken over the 5km course. The fastest time is 17mins 28 seconds by a male between 30 and 34 which equates to an age grade of 74.05%, but a woman between 35 and 39 who ran a time of 18mins 20 seconds gets an age grade of 81.55% which would put her in a final position ahead of the man.

sorting the results by age grade has a woman of 60 to 64 at the top on an age grade of 82.44%. You don't need to apply any handicap system to get the adjusted positions because world athletics has already set this up.

Obviously it only works in individual sports, but the other sports mentioned, cycling and swimming, for example could use a similar system.

For those that want to know more.


https://support.parkrun.com/hc/en-us...s-age-grading-


I've no idea what mma is, I can't stand the use of acronyms online as if everyone knows what you are talking about!



EDIT: Swimming has something similar.

https://www.swimming.org/masters/masters-swimming-age-adjustment/

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It's literally as I said, time adjusted. We're only talking about elite level here as no one cares about the over 40s friendly competitions.

So if watching the female 100m final the one that crosses the line first might not win as higher %, that's a nonsense. Also is a 25 year old trans female compared with male or female times. It simply doesn't work. Trans women want to compete against females with no caveats, many people think this is unfair.

Mma is one of the biggest sports in the world now by viewing figures. How about boxing , do you think it's OK for a trans women to fight a biological woman

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

It's literally as I said, time adjusted. We're only talking about elite level here as no one cares about the over 40s friendly competitions.

So if watching the female 100m final the one that crosses the line first might not win as higher %, that's a nonsense. Also is a 25 year old trans female compared with male or female times. It simply doesn't work. Trans women want to compete against females with no caveats, many people think this is unfair.

Mma is one of the biggest sports in the world now by viewing figures. How about boxing , do you think it's OK for a trans women to fight a biological woman

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As far as I'm aware, I'm the only one looking for a solution to the problem of fairness, and having given an example all you can do is dismiss it.

As I see it, the biological female will be able to win against a trans (biological male) athlete by using a similar system to the age grading if they compete together. Nobody would have to wait for the result as the technology exists to make it possible for real-time results to be available. I suppose there is an element of handicap insomuch as the trans athletes know they have to be a certain amount faster than the female athletes.

I'm pretty sure that I asked how many elite trans sports people there were and don't think I ever got an answer. Very few I imagine.

If you have a better idea then I'm happy to hear it. But all I can see is negativity.

Martial arts and boxing are things I have no interest in so I'll leave that to others, but as we have been discussing athletics, cycling and swimming up to now I'll leave it to others to think about the violent sports.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

As far as I'm aware, I'm the only one looking for a solution to the problem of fairness, and having given an example all you can do is dismiss it.

As I see it, the biological female will be able to win against a trans (biological male) athlete by using a similar system to the age grading if they compete together. Nobody would have to wait for the result as the technology exists to make it possible for real-time results to be available. I suppose there is an element of handicap insomuch as the trans athletes know they have to be a certain amount faster than the female athletes.

I'm pretty sure that I asked how many elite trans sports people there were and don't think I ever got an answer. Very few I imagine.

If you have a better idea then I'm happy to hear it. But all I can see is negativity.

Martial arts and boxing are things I have no interest in so I'll leave that to others, but as we have been discussing athletics, cycling and swimming up to now I'll leave it to others to think about the violent sports.

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There is an easier way as many of us have said. Make the mens competitions open to all, the trans athletes if they are good will still succeed. Women have a hard time as it is getting recognition in sport, they don't need records taken away from them and places in teams.

You can easily talk about sports your not interested in. Do you think it's right for trans women to fight women. Its one of the biggest issues in trans sport right now, or deflect from a tough question

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

There is an easier way as many of us have said. Make the mens competitions open to all, the trans athletes if they are good will still succeed. Women have a hard time as it is getting recognition in sport, they don't need records taken away from them and places in teams.

You can easily talk about sports your not interested in. Do you think it's right for trans women to fight women. Its one of the biggest issues in trans sport right now, or deflect from a tough question

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How many trans boxers or martial arts fighters are there? First time I've heard that it's one of the biggest issues!

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

How many trans boxers or martial arts fighters are there? First time I've heard that it's one of the biggest issues!

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mma is one of the biggest sports brands in the world, its events watched by tens of millions each week.

Fallon fox was borne a male had a wife and kid joined the marines, at 30 he decided to transition to female.

She took up mma and whilst technically awful her strength was huge. She came out as trans after her second fight

In one fight She broke a women's orbital bone broke her nose and caused her to need staples, after it she said

Brents took to social media to convey her thoughts on the experience of fighting Fox: "I've fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can't answer whether it's because she was born a man or not because I'm not a doctor. I can only say, I've never felt so overpowered ever in my life and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right," she stated. "Her grip was different, I could usually move around in the clinch against other females but couldn't move at all in Fox's clinch ..."

Fox herself said she was like Jackie Robinson and doing for trans that he did for blacks. She was banned in many states although florida allowed her fights. She says anyone that says she shouldn't fight is a transphobe.

She likes the fact that she was allowed to punch terms
Fallon Fox
@FallonFox
·
Apr 3
There’s been three times where I’ve punched a TERF in the face. I think I hold the record. 🏆 I’m the most based trans person on earth. 😂
#MMA #DontHate #TotallyLegal #TotallyWorthIt

Alana McLaughlin was also all over the news as she is trans and is fighting women
https://www.sportbible.com/other/mma-news-transgender-mma-fighter-wins-her-debut-after-choking-out-opponent-20210912.amp.html

Trans sports and participation is the least of my concerns in all of this discussion.

PHD student loses her case against Bristol University after she accused the University of not doing enough to protect her from threats of harm from Trans activist students.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...e65d5404300e29

"
Generally, it is not for me in this case to pass judgment on the acceptability of the things said and done and whether the line beyond acceptable free speech was crossed, but I do observe that the threat or use of violence such as the threat of throwing eggs or a punch obviously crosses that line and amounts to abhorrent and deplorable conduct,” he said.

“The university accepts that Ms Rosario Sanchez was the victim of unacceptable behaviour, particularly in the form of AA’s threat of violence.

“However, it was apparent in evidence that Ms Rosario Sanchez perceived behaviour as unacceptable to her which may nonetheless be permissible in the form of free speech – albeit offensive and rude – such as the use of the acronym terf.”

But he said Ms Rosario Sanchez “was not carefully informed and guided” about the disciplinary process and the information was delivered “in somewhat piecemeal fashion”.

He added: “Ms Rosario Sanchez’s complaints could have been progressed in a much better fashion, and this has already been recognised by the university, but there is no evidence of any malice on the part of any member of staff of the university towards Ms Rosario Sanchez and there is no evidence to support any inference of a strategy to close Ms Rosario Sanchez down rather than AA.”

It's interesting to see that part of the Judge's narrative mentions her perception of what is unacceptable behaviour and conflict with the right of freedom of speech.

I can't help wondering what the response would be from the judiciary if it were opponents of changes to Gender Recognition Act facing proceedings?

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

mma is one of the biggest sports brands in the world, its events watched by tens of millions each week.

Fallon fox was borne a male had a wife and kid joined the marines, at 30 he decided to transition to female.

She took up mma and whilst technically awful her strength was huge. She came out as trans after her second fight

In one fight She broke a women's orbital bone broke her nose and caused her to need staples, after it she said

Brents took to social media to convey her thoughts on the experience of fighting Fox: "I've fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can't answer whether it's because she was born a man or not because I'm not a doctor. I can only say, I've never felt so overpowered ever in my life and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right," she stated. "Her grip was different, I could usually move around in the clinch against other females but couldn't move at all in Fox's clinch ..."

Fox herself said she was like Jackie Robinson and doing for trans that he did for blacks. She was banned in many states although florida allowed her fights. She says anyone that says she shouldn't fight is a transphobe.

She likes the fact that she was allowed to punch terms
Fallon Fox
@FallonFox
·
Apr 3
There’s been three times where I’ve punched a TERF in the face. I think I hold the record. 🏆 I’m the most based trans person on earth. 😂
#MMA #DontHate #TotallyLegal #TotallyWorthIt

Alana McLaughlin was also all over the news as she is trans and is fighting women
https://www.sportbible.com/other/mma-news-transgender-mma-fighter-wins-her-debut-after-choking-out-opponent-20210912.amp.html

---

As always there are two sides to every story


https://www.outsports.com/2021/2/22/22296155/fallon-fox-trans-mma-fighter-lie-inclusion-misleading

Then there is the swimmer Lia Thomas

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/lia-thomas-trans-swimmer-data-b2049615.html

https://www.outsports.com/trans/2022/1/6/22867761/lia-thomas-penn-swimming-trans-truth-myth


And of course you have the trans men, who are obviously incapable of competing with cis men.


https://www.outsports.com/2020/6/21/21294667/30-moments-of-pride-pat-manuel-becomes-first-transgender-boxing-pride-lgbt-history

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

Trans sports and participation is the least of my concerns in all of this discussion.

---

Agreed. It's getting a disproportionate amount of time.

Of course, if trans women are required to participate in mens events then there is the other problem that is getting a disproportionate amount of time is the changing room issue.

Trans women should not be fighting woman in boxing / MMA or any combat sport. That is plainly obvious.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

As always there are two sides to every story


https://www.outsports.com/2021/2/22/22296155/fallon-fox-trans-mma-fighter-lie-inclusion-misleading

Then there is the swimmer Lia Thomas

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/lia-thomas-trans-swimmer-data-b2049615.html

https://www.outsports.com/trans/2022/1/6/22867761/lia-thomas-penn-swimming-trans-truth-myth


And of course you have the trans men, who are obviously incapable of competing with cis men.


https://www.outsports.com/2020/6/21/21294667/30-moments-of-pride-pat-manuel-becomes-first-transgender-boxing-pride-lgbt-history

---

Did you read that fallon fox article 😆 ridiculous. She didn't break her scull but did break orbital bone and she needed staples in her head. This is a female against an ex marine who was a man at 30. Men have larger bone density, thicker joints and are just stronger. The woman who thought her said no woman is as strong as her.

You still didn't say if trans women should fight women.

So your only reason trans women couldn't go in an open male category is the changing rooms for you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Did you read that fallon fox article �� ridiculous. She didn't break her scull but did break orbital bone and she needed staples in her head. This is a female against an ex marine who was a man at 30. Men have larger bone density, thicker joints and are just stronger. The woman who thought her said no woman is as strong as her.

You still didn't say if trans women should fight women.

So your only reason trans women couldn't go in an open male category is the changing rooms for you?

---

All about opinions. All trans have rights which you seem to want to deny them.

A fairly regular occurrance in the sport from what I've been able to find out, regardless of gender!

I've also said I don't follow any violent sport. Why would you??? So I have no opinion on fighting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Agreed. It's getting a disproportionate amount of time.

Of course, if trans women are required to participate in mens events then there is the other problem that is getting a disproportionate amount of time is the changing room issue.

---

How much is a proportionate amount of time? Its easy for anyone male to feel unaffected by the impact of it all and therefore possibly it's disproportionate.

Why should any biological female be placed in a position where she has to change in the same space as a fully intact biological male? Or share a medical ward with male strangers? Folk may not have daughters or partners or sisters but we all have mothers. If we're happy that our mother would be put in any of these positions I'd honestly question that. The right to dignity, sense of feeling safe, modesty (if that matters) or whatever is not ours to give away. It's not even the right of females who aren't bothered to give away either tobe honest.


If transwomen who are fully intact males, like Lia Thomas, had to change with other fully intact males it's surely not the same as them changing in a room of biological females?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

All about opinions. All trans have rights which you seem to want to deny them.

A fairly regular occurrance in the sport from what I've been able to find out, regardless of gender!

I've also said I don't follow any violent sport. Why would you??? So I have no opinion on fighting.

---

I want trans to have every legal right with a couple of caveats. That's light years from where we were 20 years ago. It's not fairly regular it happens when you have been smashed might happen once a career. The fact that's its done by a biological male to a female is abhorrent. If my daughter had it happen by someone who had puberty as a male I'd be furious.

The only other caveats would be rape crisis because surely its the woman's right who sees them. Also changing rooms. The majority of women asked don't want a trans female in their changing room, it would be disgusting for a man to say if that is right or not. Separate Unisex changing areas as a legal standard would stop that.

You don't have to follow boxing or mma to have an opinion, that's a cop out. I don't follow swimming but I feel people who have gone through puberty shouldn't compete against biological females. Females have the worse end of the stick throughout life, without more taken off them

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LewysGot2

How much is a proportionate amount of time? Its easy for anyone male to feel unaffected by the impact of it all and therefore possibly it's disproportionate.

Why should any biological female be placed in a position where she has to change in the same space as a fully intact biological male? Or share a medical ward with male strangers? Folk may not have daughters or partners or sisters but we all have mothers. If we're happy that our mother would be put in any of these positions I'd honestly question that. The right to dignity, sense of feeling safe, modesty (if that matters) or whatever is not ours to give away. It's not even the right of females who aren't bothered to give away either tobe honest.


If transwomen who are fully intact males, like Lia Thomas, had to change with other fully intact males it's surely not the same as them changing in a room of biological females?

---

Again, I think the issue is getting so much attention now because it's become the latest culture wars issue on the right. Distract people from Brexit, the cost of living crisis, wage stagnation, public services underfunding, corruption and cronyism in government by scapegoating a common enemy. It's a tactic as old as humanity, and at the moment the two groups being pummelled are transgenders and refugees.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba

Again, I think the issue is getting so much attention now because it's become the latest culture wars issue on the right. Distract people from Brexit, the cost of living crisis, wage stagnation, public services underfunding, corruption and cronyism in government by scapegoating a common enemy. It's a tactic as old as humanity, and at the moment the two groups being pummelled are transgenders and refugees.

---

It's getting so much attention because it's the first time it's been an issue. Female records are getting broken by trans athletes and prizes given. It would be huge worldwide news at any time

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

It's getting so much attention because it's the first time it's been an issue. Female records are getting broken by trans athletes and prizes given. It would be huge worldwide news at any time

---

Trans women are able to beat men as well 😁


Unfortunately a handful of trans athletes, sports people, have managed to win, initially, and the huge majority of transgender people are being ignored, and concentrating on 2 issues, sport and shared spaces, is not helping the majority.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Trans women are able to beat men as well 😁


Unfortunately a handful of trans athletes, sports people, have managed to win, initially, and the huge majority of transgender people are being ignored, and concentrating on 2 issues, sport and shared spaces, is not helping the majority.

---

If the conceded sports and shared spaces then there would be almost no issue for most.

They should be able to beat men, they have the same natural biology

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

It's getting so much attention because it's the first time it's been an issue. Female records are getting broken by trans athletes and prizes given. It would be huge worldwide news at any time

---

Partly, but I would say there are some very disingenuous public/media figures who are using transgenderism for propaganda purposes, in the same way other minority groups are scapegoated.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

If the conceded sports and shared spaces then there would be almost no issue for most.

They should be able to beat men, they have the same natural biology

---

It might be simple to you, but, a transgender woman who has had full surgery, after years of trauma and tens of thousands of pounds realignment surgery has no rights according to you! Are you going to force them into male changing rooms? Same goes for a transgender man who has also spent years and tens of thousands, but has maybe only had top surgery. Where does he go?


It's not all about predatory men trying to sneak into women's toilets!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba

Partly, but I would say there are some very disingenuous public/media figures who are using transgenderism for propaganda purposes, in the same way other minority groups are scapegoated.

---

Just as there are ideologically driven activists pushing from behind the trans rights angle and not always helping those who just want to go about their lives quietly or who don't want access to single sex spaces.

Any trans woman who openly says they don't want to access female sport or spaces because they don't think it's fair are targeted by these idealogical activists as heretics. Debbie Hayton and other high profile trans women have been attacked for defending single sex spaces. Detransitioners have also been very openly attacked for expressing their concerns about automatic affirmation of dysphoria and undergoing medical intervention they subsequently regret . Keira Bell being a case in question.

It is genuinely fascinating that the recommendation for affirmation of gender dysphoria is the perceived wisdom from various organisations and psychologists where the affirmation of other body dysphorias would be either deemed unsafe or culturally inappropriate. Eating disorders due to body dysphoria are not affirmed. People claiming to feel they are the wrong race are not affirmed. What is different about those feeling they are the opposite sex? It's honestly not clear to me... You wouldn't tell an anorexic they are fat.

I certainly don't know how it feels to be the opposite sex. Yeah, we have commonality in terms of key processes of life being the same but I'll never have to choose between a career or having a family, or give birth, or menstruate every month or know the physics of a very different body mechanics. And, of course, they would be the same vice versa.

It's reported there's a 4000% increase in demand for top surgery in teens in the last couple of years - the biggest area of growth is teenage girls who are often on the spectrum. The risk there is social contagion at play here too is concerning.

It's a shame there's potential hijacking of this all by the ideologically driven left and right for different motives because at the heart of all this is genuine concern for human beings dysphoria and, as a consequence, their physical health.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

It might be simple to you, but, a transgender woman who has had full surgery, after years of trauma and tens of thousands of pounds realignment surgery has no rights according to you! Are you going to force them into male changing rooms? Same goes for a transgender man who has also spent years and tens of thousands, but has maybe only had top surgery. Where does he go?


It's not all about predatory men trying to sneak into women's toilets!!

---

Pish and twisting as usual. No rights 😆 i said every right bar two. If you actually read I said there should be unisex changing as a standard, as disabled toilets are in buildings.

If not. Then it's up to the biological females to decide and most don't want trans women there. Who are you to say misogynisticly what females should be happy with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

It might be simple to you, but, a transgender woman who has had full surgery, after years of trauma and tens of thousands of pounds realignment surgery has no rights according to you! Are you going to force them into male changing rooms? Same goes for a transgender man who has also spent years and tens of thousands, but has maybe only had top surgery. Where does he go?


It's not all about predatory men trying to sneak into women's toilets!!

---

You're absolutely right but the examples of fully transitioned people are not what the umbrella term trans means in reality. It now covers everything from those individuals to autogynephiles who get their kicks from dressing as women to individuals like Lia Thomas where there is no surgery but some hormone treatment.

From a perspective of safe guarding how do people protect the vulnerable - natal women (and those male born who could be vulnerable in specfic circumstances) currently mitigated foe with single sex spaces? Third spaces, perhaps? They're not universally acceptable either it seems?

https://twitter.com/eilidhdouglas/st...9Z0ZcPtBA&s=19


😡

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

https://twitter.com/eilidhdouglas/st...9Z0ZcPtBA&s=19


😡

---

Where do lesbians fit in her analogy. They are abuses by sections if they say they wouldn't go with a trans female. TERF is banded about constantly

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

https://twitter.com/eilidhdouglas/st...9Z0ZcPtBA&s=19


😡

---

The LGB community seem to have mixed feelings on the issues...and that's just going on the replies to that Twitter post.


https://www.newsweek.com/new-homophobia-opinion-1698969


https://mobile.twitter.com/Jebadoo2/status/1517627635869888514

This sums up the logic of the identity politics / woke slogan transwomen are women.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sgjc29QCGo

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba

Partly, but I would say there are some very disingenuous public/media figures who are using transgenderism for propaganda purposes, in the same way other minority groups are scapegoated.

---

There are also public figures jumping onto to sone kind of woke- anti freedom of speech bandwagon and using their support of gender self identification to scapegoat women who gave the audacity to speak out against it.

Can a trans women who doesn't have surgery or hormones and also has a beard, be a lesbian

https://www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstru...e-couldnt-be-h

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Can a trans women who doesn't have surgery or hormones and also has a beard, be a lesbian

https://www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstru...e-couldnt-be-h

---

I'd say why not? It's really none of anyone else's business what label they put on themselves. They're in a committed relationship, and that's all that should matter.

That won't stop others talking about them, of course, but so what?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

I'd say why not? It's really none of anyone else's business what label they put on themselves. They're in a committed relationship, and that's all that should matter.

That won't stop others talking about them, of course, but so what?

---

I'd probably agree with who cares. But it's becoming the hot topic. Lesbian females who say they wouldn't go with trans women are being targeted as being bigoted, TERF is thrown out regularly. Lots of feminists are also opposing trans saying they are 100% female

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

I'd probably agree with who cares. But it's becoming the hot topic. Lesbian females who say they wouldn't go with trans women are being targeted as being bigoted, TERF is thrown out regularly. Lots of feminists are also opposing trans saying they are 100% female

---

That's not new in LGB circles. Gay men not being keen on bisexual men, for example, is a common thing. Doesn't make it right or wrong, it's down to personal choice and taste, and again IMO it's a "so what?" for everyone not directly affected.

Reading Twitter about this today, as the start of Lesbian Visibility Week, it's another opportunity for the shouters at the extremes of the trans debate to scream the same things they have been screaming for years.

The only problem I can see comes back to the same two things sports and female only areas. As much as I want this woman in the article to have every legal right as a female. They simply shouldn't be allowed in female sports. I also wouldn't be happy if she was in the gym changing room with my teen daughter. That might make me bigoted but I asked her and she says no way, she's very Liberal with most things too.

I think the only way is heavy investment in unisex areas.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

I'd say why not? It's really none of anyone else's business what label they put on themselves. They're in a committed relationship, and that's all that should matter.

That won't stop others talking about them, of course, but so what?

---

Are same sex attracted individuals entitled to own their own language and definitions? This individual is technically in a heterosexual relationship but identifies as a women. The reframing of what homosexuality means as part of gender based queer theory definitely appears offensive to a fair number of same sex attracted gay people.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LewysGot2

Are same sex attracted individuals entitled to own their own language and definitions? This individual is technically in a heterosexual relationship but identifies as a women. The reframing of what homosexuality means as part of gender based queer theory definitely appears offensive to a fair number of same sex attracted gay people.

---

They are entitled to be offended if they find it offensive. No argument there.

However, as many (of all sexualities) have been pointing out, there is no overarching authority to decide what constitutes "gay". Such is the fluid nature of the spectrum of sexuality that definition is virtually impossible.

For example, in HIV treatment circles, "men who have sex with men" is (or used to be) a term used to enable outreach to a particular marginalised sector of society. Many people might define them as "gay", but they don't identify themselves as such. Hence self-identity can be very important.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

They are entitled to be offended if they find it offensive. No argument there.

However, as many (of all sexualities) have been pointing out, there is no overarching authority to decide what constitutes "gay". Such is the fluid nature of the spectrum of sexuality that definition is virtually impossible.

For example, in HIV treatment circles, "men who have sex with men" is (or used to be) a term used to enable outreach to a particular marginalised sector of society. Many people might define them as "gay", but they don't identify themselves as such. Hence self-identity can be very important.

---

Interested why Alex Drummond doesn't see themself or celebrate being a gender non conforming biological male? It's something people were fighting for acceptance for 40 years ago - high profile GNC males included Bowie, Boy George etc Annie Lennox a high profile GNC female. Gender itself seems awfy steeped in stereotypes?

Interesting they talk about widening the bandwidth of what it is to be a woman. Why not widening the bandwidth of what it is to be a man?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Can a trans women who doesn't have surgery or hormones and also has a beard, be a lesbian

https://www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstru...e-couldnt-be-h

---

I must try that line the next time I’m chatting to a female lesbian. I suspect they may laugh at me.

It's getting ridiculous now.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/s...nant-bsxvj0dcp

"Midwifery students in Scotland were taught that biological males can become pregnant and issued with guidance on how to catheterise “birthing people” with penises"

Biological males getting pregnant?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by James310

It's getting ridiculous now.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/s...nant-bsxvj0dcp

"Midwifery students in Scotland were taught that biological males can become pregnant and issued with guidance on how to catheterise “birthing people” with penises"

Biological males getting pregnant?

---

The article is quite clear. It was a mistake, which has been corrected.

Nothing more sinister than that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

It might be simple to you, but, a transgender woman who has had full surgery, after years of trauma and tens of thousands of pounds realignment surgery has no rights according to you! Are you going to force them into male changing rooms? Same goes for a transgender man who has also spent years and tens of thousands, but has maybe only had top surgery. Where does he go?


It's not all about predatory men trying to sneak into women's toilets!!

---

I know, it’s like they have picked the worst possible imagined hypothetical situation and presented it as the norm.

J

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bristolhibby

I know, it’s like they have picked the worst possible imagined hypothetical situation and presented it as the norm.

J

---

How's that comparable with someone with a ***** changing next to females. The fact is the majority of women asked usually say they don't want it, so why should different people born males all tell them they are wrong

Make unisex changing areas compulsory and problem gone

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

The article is quite clear. It was a mistake, which has been corrected.

Nothing more sinister than that.

---

Not according to the Telegraph.

"However, The Telegraph understands that the wording of the guide has not been changed and the university on Thursday stood by it."

Even still, it's not a "mistake" in the sense of a spelling error, someone wrote it and agreed with it and likely someone signed it off.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by James310

Not according to the Telegraph.

"However, The Telegraph understands that the wording of the guide has not been changed and the university on Thursday stood by it."

Even still, it's not a "mistake" in the sense of a spelling error, someone wrote it and agreed with it and likely someone signed it off.

---

The teacher later amended the original note: “Apologies for the wording being the wrong way round. This situation refers to a female who has transitioned to male. So the person has surgery to construct a ***** but still has a uterus and may conceive.”

From the article you posted.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

The teacher later amended the original note: “Apologies for the wording being the wrong way round. This situation refers to a female who has transitioned to male. So the person has surgery to construct a ***** but still has a uterus and may conceive.”

From the article you posted.

---

Sounds like a feeble excuse when they also talked about the birthing person having a prostate gland, if what that person quoted said was true they would not refer to any prostate gland and I am pretty sure that's not part of the surgery....doesn't add up.

"Midwifery students were advised that “male persons should be warned of discomfort as the deflated balloon passes through the prostate gland”, a part of anatomy that is only found in biological males"

https://archive.ph/e4tCN

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

How's that comparable with someone with a ***** changing next to females. The fact is the majority of women asked usually say they don't want it, so why should different people born males all tell them they are wrong

Make unisex changing areas compulsory and problem gone

---

66% of women are comfortable with transgender women using shared spaces. Don't know where you get the majority?!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by James310

Sounds like a feeble excuse when they also talked about the birthing person having a prostate gland, if what that person quoted said was true they would not refer to any prostate gland and I am pretty sure that's not part of the surgery....doesn't add up.

"Midwifery students were advised that “male persons should be warned of discomfort as the deflated balloon passes through the prostate gland”, a part of anatomy that is only found in biological males"

https://archive.ph/e4tCN

---

Are you suggesting that students were deliberately given false information ?

It's a **** up. A bad one. But you seem to be saying that it's part of some sort of wider agenda. Are you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

How's that comparable with someone with a ***** changing next to females. The fact is the majority of women asked usually say they don't want it, so why should different people born males all tell them they are wrong

Make unisex changing areas compulsory and problem gone

---

Surely unisex changing facilities have the same problem, exacerbated with all genders sharing the same space!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

66% of women are comfortable with transgender women using shared spaces. Don't know where you get the majority?!

---

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2020-07-16/Transgender%20attitudes%20summary-01.png

The majority of women and men don't want trans women in female changing rooms. Surely no man would tell women what to think or what they should accept

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Surely unisex changing facilities have the same problem, exacerbated with all genders sharing the same space!!!

---

I don't think you've been in one if your saying that. Unisex ones have all the facilities in a separate cubicle each. Where as the gym my daughter goes to, the females is a square changing room with no cubicles and you walk from there to the showers. I don't really want my daughter to have to get changed and go for a shower next to male genitals. It's not a fear of rape its just female wishes

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2020-07-16/Transgender%20attitudes%20summary-01.png

The majority of women and men don't want trans women in female changing rooms. Surely no man would tell women what to think or what they should accept

---

Yes, attitudes change depending on what people perceived trans to mean. The inclusion of everything from full surgery and hormone treatment through to those with autogynophilia where presenting as a female in stereotypical fashion in a performative fashion (for arousal) under the trans umbrella means people aren't sure of what it can mean. If you ask females if they are happy with someone who has surgically transitioned they are more positive, if they are asked about those who are fully intact males the responses are quite different.

Its not about the worse case scenario either. Imagine gender neutral toilets at the football and how comfortable anyone would be with that.

See, the problem here is that I think that a transgender woman is one who has gone through the whole trauma and financial costs of surgery. Some others are taking the guy with the beard (a transvestite IMHO) as the norm. In reality it is more likely to in between those extremes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

See, the problem here is that I think that a transgender woman is one who has gone through the whole trauma and financial costs of surgery. Some others are taking the guy with the beard (a transvestite IMHO) as the norm. In reality it is more likely to in between those extremes.

---

Most would probably agree with you, but not the trans community. The majority don't have the surgery. It's hard. I think unisex changing rooms would are generally better for everyone anyway, problem is companies don't like spending money unless they have to

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

See, the problem here is that I think that a transgender woman is one who has gone through the whole trauma and financial costs of surgery. Some others are taking the guy with the beard (a transvestite IMHO) as the norm. In reality it is more likely to in between those extremes.

---

Most don't get surgery, that's the issue here. Those people are in the minority.

The other thing here is if you say anyone can be in any currently single sex space you are saying anyone can do that without challenge.

Girls being pestered by males who are just bog standard creeps in a nightclub often see the female loos as a safe space to seek help from other females. If anyone can go in those loos, that safe space is gone. It's not just about trans issues it's about general safeguarding/dignity/comfort/privacy for the population as a whole.

A lot of men don't want gender neutral facilities either.

The cost of putting in place safe gender neutral facilities that meet the capacity needs where the efficiency of urinals are removed will be prohibitive or restrictive, too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Are you suggesting that students were deliberately given false information ?

It's a **** up. A bad one. But you seem to be saying that it's part of some sort of wider agenda. Are you?

---

It’s wokeism gone mad and shows undercurrents of institutions tying themselves in knots to promote a bizarre agenda.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LewysGot2

Most don't get surgery, that's the issue here. Those people are in the minority.

The other thing here is if you say anyone can be in any currently single sex space you are saying anyone can do that without challenge.

Girls being pestered by males who are just bog standard creeps in a nightclub often see the female loos as a safe space to seek help from other females. If anyone can go in those loos, that safe space is gone. It's not just about trans issues it's about general safeguarding/dignity/comfort/privacy for the population as a whole.

A lot of men don't want gender neutral facilities either.

The cost of putting in place safe gender neutral facilities that meet the capacity needs where the efficiency of urinals are removed will be prohibitive or restrictive, too.

---

Gender neutral, single occupancy spaces, like the individual toilet cubicles fine.

For the likes of changing rooms etc, utterly insane. Who in the real world could seriously be advocating this?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

Gender neutral, single occupancy spaces, like the individual toilet cubicles fine.

For the likes of changing rooms etc, utterly insane. Who in the real world could seriously be advocating this?

---

The gender neutral changing rooms are individual changing spaces, not open rooms obviously. Half of swimming pools already have this. You all go in as a family pick your cubicle and the only place you would really mix is at the mirrors

https://fairplayforwomen.com/unisex-...men-in-danger/


90% of sex attacks in council leisure centres happen in unisex changing areas.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

https://fairplayforwomen.com/unisex-...men-in-danger/


90% of sex attacks in council leisure centres happen in unisex changing areas.

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120 in 2 years, 46 in public mixed areas like pools and corridors. Seems a small number of weirdos. But if the trans community don't want this, then they should have nothing.

They say its protecting women at a stage of undress, well imagine a female in a state of undress next to someone with male genitals undressed.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

The gender neutral changing rooms are individual changing spaces, not open rooms obviously. Half of swimming pools already have this. You all go in as a family pick your cubicle and the only place you would really mix is at the mirrors

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In a world where some are substituting the word mother for people with wombs anything is possible.

You say obviously, but you actually wrote " I think unisex changing rooms would are generally better for everyone anyway". Places like Warrender baths have always had the cubicles around the pool, they've always been gender neutral, that's different.

I don't have a problem with male/female only changing rooms, nor do I agree that unisex changing rooms are generally better. Why bother? Just leave them as they are. Who does installing cubicles actually benefit?

The scope for deviant men ogling others would increase enormously. It may also alienate people from other cultures and prevent them using facilities.

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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

In a world where some are substituting the word mother for people with wombs anything is possible.

You say obviously, but you actually wrote " I think unisex changing rooms would are generally better for everyone anyway". Places like Warrender baths have always had the cubicles around the pool, they've always been gender neutral, that's different.

I don't have a problem with male/female only changing rooms, nor do I agree that unisex changing rooms are generally better. Why bother? Just leave them as they are. Who does installing cubicles actually benefit?

The scope for deviant men ogling others would increase enormously. It may also alienate people from other cultures and prevent them using facilities.

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If there is floor to ceiling cubicles there is no way of ogling. I've used unisex changing areas in swimming pools and water parks all around the world, I've seen most cultures using them happily. It's handy when you can help the wife if you have a baby and small kids, just pass them out

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

If there is floor to ceiling cubicles there is no way of ogling. I've used unisex changing areas in swimming pools and water parks all around the world, I've seen most cultures using them happily. It's handy when you can help the wife if you have a baby and small kids, just pass them out

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I'm less cosmopolitan than you and only know them from the old council pools in Edinburgh.

Fair enough, in the design of new facilities, maybe they will be easier to incorporate, but for me it's not a pressing issue.

Back to the people with wombs stuff..........

Interesting to see that ERI no longer have a maternity ward, it's a Birth Centre. Although they still refer to "Midwives". and "Maternity services". The word women is quite noticeably absent in most of the pages. On the introductory page they do mention women " Being pregnant is a special time in your life and NHS Lothian Maternity Services strive to ensure that all women and babies are provided with the highest quality care throughout your pregnancy journey".

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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

I'm less cosmopolitan than you and only know them from the old council pools in Edinburgh.

Fair enough, in the design of new facilities, maybe they will be easier to incorporate, but for me it's not a pressing issue.

Back to the people with wombs stuff..........

Interesting to see that ERI no longer have a maternity ward, it's a Birth Centre. Although they still refer to "Midwives". and "Maternity services". The word women is quite noticeably absent in most of the pages. On the introductory page they do mention women " Being pregnant is a special time in your life and NHS Lothian Maternity Services strive to ensure that all women and babies are provided with the highest quality care throughout your pregnancy journey".

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I'd probably agree with you that it could be a standard in new builds. Maybe just have male female and maybe one unisex cubicle, like we do with disabled toilets and baby change. Because the problem is so small that the huge cost of changing everywhere would be a waste.

Your second point, yes it's ridiculous. All our information when we had the bairn was about the birthing parent, as you say no mention about mum's. My wife went to some mum and baby yoga regularly. They had to change the name to parent and baby yoga. But when dad's started applying, they went with the snappy name of birthing parent and baby yoga

Biological sex is real, if there is no such thing as biological sex, there is no such thing as trans, it's good to see that trans people are now speaking out against the Woke nonsense that claims to speak on their behalf as some kind of clown show in the oppression olympics

http://youtu.be/e9SSh4D-nkQ

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...-west-61167271

13 year olds wanting unisex toilets at school.

Talk about over indulged entitlement gone haywire.

I just can’t buy into all of this. It’s attention seeking to the max.

The tyranny of the not very silent tiny minority.

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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...-west-61167271

13 year olds wanting unisex toilets at school.

Talk about over indulged entitlement gone haywire.

I just can’t buy into all of this. It’s attention seeking to the max.

The tyranny of the not very silent tiny minority.

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That's a really sad article. Children are often unhappy with the changes in their bodies when they hit puberty - that's pretty normal - but this is quite something else.

Scotland is showing a faster rate of increase of teenagers looking for treatment for gender identity issues.

England has 7,100 teens seeking treatment at gender clinics. Given the relative size of populations Scotland, if comparable, should be about 10% of that ie. around 700. We're not, we've got 1253 which is around 18%. Scotland has almost twice as many gender-distressed children per head of population as the other home nations.

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Originally Posted by LewysGot2

That's a really sad article. Children are often unhappy with the changes in their bodies when they hit puberty - that's pretty normal - but this is quite something else.

Scotland is showing a faster rate of increase of teenagers looking for treatment for gender identity issues.

England has 7,100 teens seeking treatment at gender clinics. Given the relative size of populations Scotland, if comparable, should be about 10% of that ie. around 700. We're not, we've got 1253 which is around 18%. Scotland has almost twice as many gender-distressed children per head of population as the other home nations.

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I know the phrase "social contagion" gets thrown around negatively, but I feel the same way about religion, so I hope people understand why I apply it.

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Originally Posted by 500miles

I know the phrase "social contagion" gets thrown around negatively, but I feel the same way about religion, so I hope people understand why I apply it.

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I don't think anyone can ignore that there will be some normal teenage behaviours at play. The need to feel they have found "their tribe", the needs to rebel in some way against their parents. These are age old behaviours and, if the Internet is the key source of information and influence for these young people (as the 13 year old admitted) then there's real potential for things to be exploited/misunderstood. The number of teens seeking gender reassignment or feeling in the wrong body where ASD is also in the mix is something that can't be ignored either. We need to understand better why we've had massive increases suddenly in high functioning autistic pupils feeling they are "in the wrong body". Is it that computers are very often a big part of their lives? Or is it something else?

In Sweden the Karolinska University gender clinic is under scrutiny after an investigative documentary by the Swedish national broadcaster uncovered the extent of long term permanent physical health damage to teens put on hormones from primary school age. Transition for male bodied individuals needs 6 times the level of oestrogen used by women on HRT. That affects fertility, bone density, the major organs...massive long term implications health wise based on "the feelings of being in the wrong body" of children, seemingly in that clinic as young as 10.

They have shifted their policy on prescription of puberty blockers apparently and are no longer prescribing for U18s as a standard practice. Same has been happening in Finland.


How that pans out, what litigation might inevitably follows will be interesting because money makes the world go round.

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Originally Posted by LewysGot2

I don't think anyone can ignore that there will be some normal teenage behaviours at play. The need to feel they have found "their tribe", the needs to rebel in some way against their parents. These are age old behaviours and, if the Internet is the key source of information and influence for these young people (as the 13 year old admitted) then there's real potential for things to be exploited/misunderstood. The number of teens seeking gender reassignment or feeling in the wrong body where ASD is also in the mix is something that can't be ignored either. We need to understand better why we've had massive increases suddenly in high functioning autistic pupils feeling they are "in the wrong body". Is it that computers are very often a big part of their lives? Or is it something else?

In Sweden the Karolinska University gender clinic is being investigated at the moment because an investigative documentary by the Swedish national broadcaster uncovered the extent of long term permanent physical health damage to teens put on hormones from primary school age. Transition for male bodied individuals needs 6 times the level of oestrogen used by women on HRT. That affects fertility, bone density, the major organs...massive long term implications health wise based on "the feelings of being in the wrong body" of children, seemingly in that clinic as young as 4.

How that pans out, what litigation might inevitably follows will be interesting because money makes the world go round.

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Scottish Government Minister Lorna Slater supports the prescribing of puberty blockers for children. Says it's allows the child time to decide what way they want to go.