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As someone else has pointed out, Israel is doing the West a favour here. A day of reckonining for the Iranian regime, loathed by most of its people, has been a long time coming. It's at the heart of extremism and terrorism, funding its proxies and making peace in the Middle East impossible.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimBHibees
The belief some seem to have that the Iranian people are going to rise up and create a democratic society supporting the USA and Israel is bizarre. More likely to unite the country against those attacking it.
Thought the west would have recognised bombing the crap out of countries doesn’t usually lead to moving them in directions they want. Are they any more abhorrent than whoever bombed them? The last thing the world needs at present is more violenceQuote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
100% agree. This attack pushes Iran closer to becoming nuclear armed. Really strange timing considering that talks were ongoing with the US. Perhaps Netanyahu felt if those talks came to a positive conclusion then he wouldn’t get another opportunity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop Hibee
My view would be been given the green light by Donald and won’t have a better chance and their reputation can’t really get any worseQuote:
Originally Posted by 18Craig75
I think most people would accept regime change in Iran could be a positive for it's population. There are so many caveats there that it would take a day to list them but broad speaking I don't think many are in thrall to the nutjob Islamists running the show.
A bunch of nutjob Zionists unilaterally doing the regime changing isn't the answer many would put forward though. There is plenty internal agitation in Iran against the leadership already; those agitators aren't going to accept some Israeli and US backed puppet government. There are people old enough to remember how much of a disaster that was last time out.
Spot on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop Hibee
Israel is a menace to the region, and indeed the wider world.
They need dealt with, pronto.
Perhaps the West should think about instigating a coup / regime change in Jerusalem. Appreciate this is unlikely, given their Western support and thus the condoning of the Israeli atrocities.
I doubt either regime could be changed just by firing some rockets in. Only ground forces are capable of that and there is zero chance of that. If there is regime change then it will have to be internal. And there is a very good chance of that in Iran.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Boy
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It's not quite as simple as that is it . Israel has been under attack for the entirety of its existence. They had to learn to fight or there wouldn't be an Israel today .Quote:
Originally Posted by SickBoy32
Iran is a fundamentalist dictatorship. Whatever you feel about their current government, Israel is a parliamentary democracy (the only one in the Middle East) and an indispensable strategic ally to the West.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimBHibees
There is substantial opposition to Netanyahu in Israel, where there have been plenty demonstrations by those who don't feel that prolonging the conflict remains the most effective way of securing the release of however many hostages remain. What gets less coverage are the demonstrations in Gaza against the Hamas regime responsible for the conflict in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Col2
Do they let the Palestinians they rule over vote?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibspur
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Or perhaps a useful reminder of the fact that this supposed genocide was triggered by a mass terrorist attack involving the slaughter of civilians and the taking of hostages? Terrorists who embed themselves within and below civilian infrastructure, content to increase civilian casualties for propaganda purposes. Hamas knew fine well the consequences of their actions and appear to care not a jot for the people they're purported to 'govern'.Quote:
Originally Posted by SickBoy32
Little wonder they were under attack following the Nakba (round1). Round 2 underway currently.Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveli1875
A lot of good and progressive work had gone into a ‘2 state solution’ in recent decades, however that has all been undone (and more) by the genocidal maniacs in charge of Israel.
Not to mention their ongoing illegal land grabs in contravention of international law.
They need sorted out and brought down a peg or two.
Unfortunately, the UK / US seem to prefer to support this ongoing chaos.
Supposed genocide 😂Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibspur
Just a wee bit of revisionism thereQuote:
Originally Posted by Hibspur
https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-44124396
The conflict between Israel and the Palestinian people is one of the longest-running and most violent disputes in the world. Its origins go back more than a century.
Tensions between the Jewish and Arab populations deepened when the UK agreed in principle to the establishment of a "national home" in Palestine for Jewish people
Jews had historical links to the land, but Palestinian Arabs also had a claim dating back centuries and opposed the move. The British said the rights of Palestinian Arabs already living there had to be protected.
Jewish leaders in Palestine declared an independent state known as Israel hours before British rule ended. Israel was recognised by the UN the following year.
About 750,000 Palestinians fled, or were forced from, their homes on land which became Israel and ended up as refugees.
I could continue, but doubt you will agree that it started with the formation of an Israeli state on land that was always Palestinian.
Edit. I was going to mention the landgrab and murder in the west bank but I was beaten to it.
Neither side will now countenance a two-state solution but it's the Palestinians who have previously walked away from the best chances for peace. Arafat's spurning of the Camp David deal is widely seen as a mistake but it was Abbas who really blew it in 2008 when he rejected Olmert's offer which gave the Palestinians everything they could realistically have hoped for.Quote:
Originally Posted by SickBoy32
To coin a phrase, the Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. And under Hamas an opportunity is no longer even sought.
Not sure the 2 state idea would work anyway. The 2 states would be at war within a couple of years of establishment anyway, the hate is so ingrained.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
I'd argue it's open to question. Questionable whether what's happening in Gaza stacks up alongside (relatively recent) historical genocides in, say, Rwanda, Darfur, Bosnia or the ongoing genocide in Myanwar and how much it feeds into anti-Israel/Zionism sentiment - something that bleeds into broader prejudices against Jews. As pointed out, to use that term to describe the latest war in Gaza serves to deligitimise the actions of one side while legitimising the actions of the terrorist organisation which started the conflict - an organisation which willingly uses civilians as dispensable shields and would happily wipe the Jewish state off the map.Quote:
Originally Posted by SickBoy32
If genocide starts to become a routine descriptor for controversial aspects of conflict where do we stand on Allied bombing of German cities or the dropping of atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
How does it do that?Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
Sure it did...Quote:
which started the conflict
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
Genuine question, after world war 2 where were the Jews suppose to go? Was it not the case that they had some historical links also and after the nazi’s the world agreed that they should settle their?
I don’t know the history that well which is why I refrain from commenting on the conflict
Yep, exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
We felt bad for the Jews after the holocaust, carved out some land for them in the Middle East since they have a tenuous link to the region but it came at a cost of moving on the people who were currently living there.
Since then, the state has land grabbed, intimidated, controlled and ultimately purged the local population from their land, flattened every building, setup 'safe zones', starved anyone left of basic resources, freedom of movement and killed thousands upon thousands of civilians.
The retaliation to that from Hamas was awful, but this sort of thing is like how to create a terrorist group 101. Step 1, persecute innocent people, step 2 the mourned become fuel for revenge...
It's also hugely ironic that there are calls to remove a religious group from a position of power in Iran when Israel is literally a country for a religion. Huge amounts of hypocrisy.
Ideally, neither Islam nor Judaism (nor any religion or religious group) should have as much power. Having them vie for power in the same part of the world is recipe for a right ****-show, as we're seeing.
The decision to create the state of Israel isn't something that we can ever take back, but they need to settle down and learn to co-exist with their neighbours. Right now, they're behaving a bit like a certain European state that claimed to be the holy successors of a past empire.
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Who’s the European state?Quote:
Originally Posted by DinkyTwo
The actions that started the conflict, if you look back in history, was the enforcement of an Israeli state on most of what was Palestine.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
Never thought I would agree 100% with Tucker Carlson
https://x.com/tuckercarlson/status/1...B9IiX9O1uErJgw
Mark Levin was at the White House today, lobbying for war with Iran. To be clear, Levin has no plans to fight in this or any other war. He’s demanding that American troops do it. We need to stop Iran from building nuclear weapons, he and likeminded ideologues in Washington are now arguing. They’re just weeks away.
If this sounds familiar, it's because the same people have been making the same claim since at least the 1990s. It’s a lie. In fact, there is zero credible intelligence that suggests Iran is anywhere near building a bomb, or has plans to. None. Anyone who claims otherwise is ignorant or dishonest. If the US government knew Iran was weeks from possessing a nuclear weapon, we’d be at war already.
Iran knows this, which is why they aren’t building one. Iran also knows it’s unwise to give up its weapons program entirely. Muammar Gaddafi tried that and wound up sodomized with a bayonet. As soon as Gaddafi disarmed, NATO killed him. Iran’s leaders saw that happen. They learned the obvious lesson.
So why is Mark Levin once again hyperventilating about weapons of mass destruction? To distract you from the real goal, which is regime change — young Americans heading back to the Middle East to topple yet another government. Virtually no one will say this out loud. America’s record of overthrowing foreign leaders is so embarrassingly counterproductive that regime change has become a synonym for disaster. Officially, no one supports it. So instead of telling the truth about their motives, they manufacture hysteria: “A country like Iran can never have the bomb! They’ll nuke Los Angeles! We have to act now!”
They don’t really mean this, and you can tell they don’t by what they omit. At least two of Iran’s neighbors — both Islamic nations — already have nuclear weapons. That fact should scare the hell out of Mark Levin. Yet for some reason he never mentions it. How come? Because it’s not the weapons he hates. It’s the ideology of the Iranian government, which is why he’s lobbying to overthrow it.
It goes without saying that there are very few Trump voters who’d support a regime change war in Iran. Donald Trump has argued loudly against reckless lunacy like this. Trump ran for president as a peace candidate. That’s what made him different from conventional Republicans. It’s why he won. A war with Iran would amount to a profound betrayal of his supporters. It would end his presidency. That may explain why so many of Trump’s enemies are advocating for it.
And then there’s the question of the war itself. Iran may not have nukes, but it has a fearsome arsenal of ballistic missiles, many of which are aimed at US military installations in the Gulf, as well as at our allies and at critical energy infrastructure. The first week of a war with Iran could easily kill thousands of Americans. It could also collapse our economy, as surging oil prices trigger unmanageable inflation. Consider the effects of $30 gasoline.
But the second week of the war could be even worse. Iran isn’t Iraq or Libya, or even North Korea. While it’s often described as a rogue state, Iran has powerful allies. It’s now part of a global bloc called BRICS, which represents the majority of the world’s landmass, population, economy and military power. Iran has extensive military ties with Russia. It sells the overwhelming majority of its oil exports to China. Iran isn’t alone. An attack on Iran could very easily become a world war. We’d lose.
None of these are far fetched predictions. Most of them comport with the Pentagon’s own estimates: many Americans would die during a war with Iran. People like Mark Levin don’t seem to care about this. It’s not relevant to them. Instead they insist that Iran give up all uranium enrichment, regardless of its purpose. They know perfectly well that Iran will never accept that demand. They’ll fight first. And of course that’s the whole point of pushing for it: to box the Trump administration into a regime change war in Iran.
“The one thing that people like Mark Levin don’t want is a peaceful solution to the problem of Iran, despite the obvious benefits to the United States. They denounce anyone who advocates for a deal as a traitor and a bigot. They tell us with a straight face that Long Island native Steve Witkoff is a secret tool of Islamic monarchies. They’ll say or do whatever it takes. They have no limits. These are scary people. Pray that Donald Trump ignores them”
He's wrong about having allies. If anything, Russia's probably happy Israel is helping to normalise unilateral force.
The most vociferous Jewish people I know are all American. Maybe Utah or Arizona could take them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibs4185
Only joking.
From a purely historical point of view, Israel's ancient claim to the land trumps the Palestinian claim by several hundred years. The movement to create a national home for the Jewish people in that part of the world goes back to the end of the First World War and the fall of the Ottoman Empire, but modern day Israel wasn't established until post-World War Two. The land had long been contested by Jews and Arabs and its division was badly handled.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibs4185
There's a first-class BBC documentary series called The Fifty Years War: Israel and the Arabs (still available on iplayer I think) which charts the conflict from 1948-1998.
Personally I'm inclined to agree with the late, great Jewish American writer Harlan Ellison who had this to say:
"Here’s my opinion: all of you guys out there in the Middle East are out of the same melting pot, and you’re all as crazy as a butterfly on absinthe. I don’t know whether you’re all Canaanites at the base, or you’re all Jews at the base, or outa the Land of Nod, or whatever the hell you were at the git-go—Semites or what not—but you’ve been fighting there now for something like 8,000 years! You’ve never had five minutes of quiet and peace; you’re forever killing each other over the Holy Grail, or whatever the hell it is, and the rest of the world has had to suffer with this. Great things have come out of the Middle East, but stupidity seems to be your chief export—stupidity and violence are your cash crops, all you.”
“My solution to the problem in the Middle East is this: We erect a wall 26 miles high around the entire Middle East. That’s Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Israel, Egypt, all of you—the whole bunch of you—26 miles high with one door, like a regular door in the front of a house. And every 10 years, we will open the door and look inside. If you’re still fighting, we close the door. Loz ze gein, you should live and be well—go and fight and kill yourselves. But if we peek inside and it’s safe, if it’s nice, if you’re not fighting, and you’ve got peace and quiet, you can come out and play with the rest of us like human people."
Genocidal fanatics stage a raid on a neighbouring country they despise, taking out as many of its citizens as they can, then claim their neighbours are the genocidal ones when they come to hunt them down. Other people buy into this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kato
That would be my take on it.
That's certainly a take.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibspur
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