Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

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Originally Posted by Sergio sledge

The chief sports writer at the Scottish daily mail is saying on Twitter that there'll be a story to "bury" Craig Whyte "and much more" in tomorrows daily mail....

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/foo...#ixzz1mxzl4HzQ

Sportsmail can reveal Whyte convinced Ticketus to advance him £24.4million on the proviso that he would then buy Rangers. That cash was deposited into a client account with his London-based lawyer Collyer Bristow on April 7.



ticketus have been very quiet throughout all this, i cant remember even reading a quote from them, i cant believe a professional business would give someone that amount of cash on the chance that whyte 'might' be the new owner in a months time

:rolleyes: some crazy stuff likes

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Originally Posted by cabbageandribs1875

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/foo...#ixzz1mxzl4HzQ

Sportsmail can reveal Whyte convinced Ticketus to advance him £24.4million on the proviso that he would then buy Rangers. That cash was deposited into a client account with his London-based lawyer Collyer Bristow on April 7.



ticketus have been very quiet throughout all this, i cant remember even reading a quote from them, i cant believe a professional business would give someone that amount of cash on the chance that whyte 'might' be the new owner in a months time

:rolleyes: some crazy stuff likes

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It appears that the £18 million in cash from Ticketus was held in a solicitors client account with the instruction that it should not be released until Whyte took over Rangers. The deposit was sufficient to confirm to David Murray and Lloyds Bank Group that Whyte had the cash to take over the club. Whyte then paid £1 to Murray and the sale went through. Presumably the funds were then released to pay off Lloyds.

Whyte now had ownership of Rangers but lacked any working capital. He upped the advance sale to Ticketus from £18 to £24 million and also failed to pass on PAYE and National Insurance payments deducted from employees wages to HMRC and used the £7 million as working capital to finance the operation of the club. That was until the club was placed in administration with HMSO on his traill.

Whyte was now the preferred creditor with first call on the club's tangible assets (Ibrox and Murray Park) without putting in any of his own money (in the unlikely event that he has any).

In the event of Rangers winning the 'big tax case', the club emerges from administration debt free with Whyte in ownership. In the event that they lose the 'big tax case', Rangers are liquidated and Whyte ends up with Ibrox and Murray Park with all other creditors screwed. He can then start a debt free Pheonix and try and talk his way back into the SFA and SPL. Alternatively he can sell the real estate for development and pocket the cash leaving Ticketus to whistle for their £24 million in advance ticket sales for a liquidated club.

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Originally Posted by EuanH78

Hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the crux of the matter is he recieved borrowings against an asset he did not own, which I think in this case counts as major fraud.

Think Whyte might be going to jail. And as a plus Rangers brand gets even more toxic :greengrin

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It would not be fraud if the money was received on the basis that it would be used to purchase Rangers, if this aspect was transparent then there's no offence. I suppose the mischief might lie in what written assurances were given to Rangers before he bought them.

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Originally Posted by jgl07

In the event of Rangers winning the 'big tax case', the club emerges from administration debt free with Whyte in ownership. In the event that they lose the 'big tax case', Rangers are liquidated and Whyte ends up with Ibrox and Murray Park with all other creditors screwed. He can then start a debt free Pheonix and try and talk his way back into the SFA and SPL. Alternatively he can sell the real estate for development and pocket the cash leaving Ticketus to whistle for their £24 million in advance ticket sales for a liquidated club.

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A good summary to which a third option can be added. He could sell Ibrox and Murray Park to a Rangers-minded group which the SFA and SPL would find more palatable than Whyte himself. Whyte walks away with millions from a £1 investment and a new debt-free Rangers appears in the SPL.

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Originally Posted by Spike Mandela

If that is the case, who owns Rangers and who is the preferred creditor?

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RFC Group still own 85% of Rangers.

There is no "preferred creditor". All creditors rank alongside each other.

There was a story out there that CW had security for his "loan". However, there can be no security if he isn't owed anything.

On the question of fraud, the only possible one I can see is if he held himself out to Ticketus as being "Rangers", and they bought the tickets from him, in the belief that that were true at the time. I find that difficult to believe, though. If it were, Ticketus need their backsides felt for not doing their due diligence properly.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

RFC Group still own 85% of Rangers.

There is no "preferred creditor". All creditors rank alongside each other.

There was a story out there that CW had security for his "loan". However, there can be no security if he isn't owed anything.

On the question of fraud, the only possible one I can see is if he held himself out to Ticketus as being "Rangers", and they bought the tickets from him, in the belief that that were true at the time. I find that difficult to believe, though. If it were, Ticketus need their backsides felt for not doing their due diligence properly.

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Here's the Daily Mail's take on the Ticketus deal!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/foo...-pay-bank.html

Beeb Radio reported yesterday that his stockbroking firm, Pritchard, were accused of using client funds to pay their own expenses. Fraud or what?

The nooses are tightening!:greengrin

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Originally Posted by ancienthibby

Here's the Daily Mail's take on the Ticketus deal!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/foo...-pay-bank.html

Beeb Radio reported yesterday that his stockbroking firm, Pritchard, were accused of using client funds to pay their own expenses. Fraud or what?

The nooses are tightening!:greengrin

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Could be the flaw in his plan, clearly he is an expert operator when it comes to getting cash out of failing businesses, but I doubt he's ever had to deal with the sort of scrutiny he is now attracting, the media will be out in force looking for the slightest bit of dirt on this guy now and it could well be what blows his plans out the water...

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Originally Posted by ScottB

Could be the flaw in his plan, clearly he is an expert operator when it comes to getting cash out of failing businesses, but I doubt he's ever had to deal with the sort of scrutiny he is now attracting, the media will be out in force looking for the slightest bit of dirt on this guy now and it could well be what blows his plans out the water...

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IMO, what blew the plan was Rangers not getting CL football. Had they done so, it would have been easier to pay HMRC for the current liabilities, and to repay him/his company for the Ticketus scam.

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Originally Posted by ballengeich

A good summary to which a third option can be added. He could sell Ibrox and Murray Park to a Rangers-minded group which the SFA and SPL would find more palatable than Whyte himself. Whyte walks away with millions from a £1 investment and a new debt-free Rangers appears in the SPL.

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Would the Rangers-minded group need to find the money to buy these though??? Presumably if there is a backer with the money, then that's OK. Also if they win the 'big tax' case and don't owe the £49m - then that's OK as well. So it would therefore be that they owe 'only' the £9m. A future funding problem would be that for a few years any money in from future season tickets would go straight to Ticketus, therefore limiting their income?

Hopefully they lose the 'big tax' case and go under. (Would it be worth us taxpayers losing £49m??). I can't see the big panic about the future of Scottish football. Worst case would be the new Rangers being in Div 3 and out of the SPL for 3 years while they bolster the lower leagues with some gate receipts. Surely 'we' (current SPL) can survive for 3 years without them.

Surely it is fraud to buy a company with its own assets, that is what he has done? He bought the club using its own funds/assets which where not his.

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Originally Posted by johnbc70

Surely it is fraud to buy a company with its own assets, that is what he has done? He bought the club using its own funds/assets which where not his.

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He didn't, though.

The cost of buying the company (or Murray's shares in it) was £1.

He used the Ticketus money (apparently) to pay off Lloyds. In other words, used one asset to pay off a liability.

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Originally Posted by ballengeich

A good summary to which a third option can be added. He could sell Ibrox and Murray Park to a Rangers-minded group which the SFA and SPL would find more palatable than Whyte himself. Whyte walks away with millions from a £1 investment and a new debt-free Rangers appears in the SPL.

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The only flaw in all of the scenarios is the Ticketus deal. They will be looking for much of the season ticket income from Rangers for the next four years in the vent that the club continues or come after Whyte in the event that it does not.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

He didn't, though.

The cost of buying the company (or Murray's shares in it) was £1.

He used the Ticketus money (apparently) to pay off Lloyds. In other words, used one asset to pay off a liability.

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So basically Rangers owe Ticketus what used to be owed to Lloyds? Ticketus are presumably happy enough to get their money via season tickets. So if there was no fraud etc involved, it's just that pesky £9m owed in Tax and VAT etc that is Rangers problem (and the possibility of £49m debt as well)? What if a fan wins £9m on the lottery and gives that to RFC - are they in the clear (kind of). Admittedly having to cut their cloth for a few years.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

He didn't, though.

The cost of buying the company (or Murray's shares in it) was £1.

He used the Ticketus money (apparently) to pay off Lloyds. In other words, used one asset to pay off a liability.

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But surely an asset he didnt own at the time. Ticketus role in this looks decidedly ropey too.

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Originally Posted by Newry Hibs

So basically Rangers owe Ticketus what used to be owed to Lloyds? Ticketus are presumably happy enough to get their money via season tickets. So if there was no fraud etc involved, it's just that pesky £9m owed in Tax and VAT etc that is Rangers problem (and the possibility of £49m debt as well)? What if a fan wins £9m on the lottery and gives that to RFC - are they in the clear (kind of). Admittedly having to cut their cloth for a few years.

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Apart from having next to no season ticket cash for the next four years.

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Originally Posted by jgl07

Apart from having next to no season ticket cash for the next four years.

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Suits me. Maybe a bit more of a level playing field. Maybe even no guarantee of Champions league etc which means less money and a vicious circle (a bit like all other clubs).

Here's hoping any lottery winners don't have a Blue nose and they lose the 'big tax' case and they get screwed for not paying the £9m.

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Originally Posted by jgl07

In the event of Rangers winning the 'big tax case', the club emerges from administration debt free with Whyte in ownership. In the event that they lose the 'big tax case', Rangers are liquidated and Whyte ends up with Ibrox and Murray Park with all other creditors screwed. He can then start a debt free Pheonix and try and talk his way back into the SFA and SPL. Alternatively he can sell the real estate for development and pocket the cash leaving Ticketus to whistle for their £24 million in advance ticket sales for a liquidated club.

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a win win then, sickening :agree:

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Originally Posted by ano hibby

But surely an asset he didnt own at the time. Ticketus role in this looks decidedly ropey too.

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It's only fraud if there has been some sort of deception. I can only see Ticketus as having possibly been deceived, but doesn't seem likely to me.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

IMO, what blew the plan was Rangers not getting CL football. Had they done so, it would have been easier to pay HMRC for the current liabilities, and to repay him/his company for the Ticketus scam.

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I think his idea was that the big tax case would have ruled at some point last year against Rangers, then he could have folded the company and blamed Murray. Instead he has run out of money first.

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Originally Posted by Newry Hibs

Suits me. Maybe a bit more of a level playing field. Maybe even no guarantee of Champions league etc which means less money and a vicious circle (a bit like all other clubs).

Here's hoping any lottery winners don't have a Blue nose and they lose the 'big tax' case and they get screwed for not paying the £9m.

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Daily ****** reporting that one of his newly appointed (non-executive) directors of RFC took £185k for just nine months work, including one bill for £85k.

Sun also reports that the axe will fall first on a Mr Bartley.:agree:

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Originally Posted by ancienthibby

Daily ****** reporting that one of his newly appointed (non-executive) directors of RFC took £185k for just nine months work, including one bill for £85k.

****** also reports that the axe will fall first on a Mr Bartley.:agree:

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The interesting point for me in that (other than that I am charging too little :greengrin) is the mention of Close Brothers, a finance company.

When I dug into the question of who had what security, the only charge mentioned at Companies House was one in favour of Close Brothers. It seems that they have security over the catering equipment at Ibrox.

How much is a pie-warmer worth?

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

It's only fraud if there has been some sort of deception. I can only see Ticketus as having possibly been deceived, but doesn't seem likely to me.

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Didn't he deceive Murray though, by claiming that the £18m was his rather than it actually being 3 years worth of season tickets?

And if that was viewed as deception could it invalidate his ownership?

I see the petition to Wind-up HOMFC is back up at the Court of Session today ( unstarred motion )

I guess its just to dismiss the motion this time as they say they have paid their taxes.

Of course there could have been a glitch in the Money from Kaunus route.:tee hee:

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Originally Posted by StevieC

Didn't he deceive Murray though, by claiming that the £18m was his rather than it actually being 3 years worth of season tickets?

And if that was viewed as deception could it invalidate his ownership?

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I thought someone might say this, Stevie.

My suspicion (without proof, of course, just a hunch) is that Murray knew what Whyte was up to. Murray was so keen to get rid of the club (and, IIRC, there were no other buyers around) that he turned a blind eye to the scam.

In other words, no deception. But, would you get SDM to admit it? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Part/Time Supporter

I think his idea was that the big tax case would have ruled at some point last year against Rangers, then he could have folded the company and blamed Murray. Instead he has run out of money first.

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:agree:

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

I thought someone might say this, Stevie.

My suspicion (without proof, of course, just a hunch) is that Murray knew what Whyte was up to. Murray was so keen to get rid of the club (and, IIRC, there were no other buyers around) that he turned a blind eye to the scam.

In other words, no deception. But, would you get SDM to admit it? :rolleyes:

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At very least he would have known about the Ticketus deal.

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Originally Posted by Peevemor

At very least he would have known about the Ticketus deal.

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:agree:

IIRC... and I haven't got time to look... there was a sub-committee of the RFC Board looking at the deal on the table at the time. I am pretty sure that a few (most?) of them didn't like it. Not that it mattered, of course, it was always going to be SDM's decision as the major shareholder.

Did a couple not resign over it? :confused:

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

But, would you get SDM to admit it? :rolleyes:

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So if SDM denies any knowledge of the Ticketus deal (regardless of whether or not he actually knew) then that "could" constitute deception?

The fact that the money had to actually be transfered into an account prior to the deal happening would probably leave SDM in the clear.

The question is though, if it is viewed as deception where would that put things?

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Originally Posted by StevieC

So if SDM denies any knowledge of the Ticketus deal (regardless of whether or not he actually knew) then that "could" constitute deception?

The fact that the money had to actually be transfered into an account prior to the deal happening would probably leave SDM in the clear.

The question is though, if it is viewed as deception where would that put things?

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CW in the dock for fraud, probably.

But I doubt if SDM would want to have the deal reversed. Would you? :greengrin

It was suggested to me this morning that, as they have been very quiet and relaxed, perhaps Ticketus have been sold Ibrox as security for the length of the agreement and for a nominal sum. Can you imagine the response if this is the case?