Share Transfers Agreed/Cooling off period

Just watched the highlights of last nights game. Them v Dundee Utd. And then read Gary Locke:

"To get 13,500 on a Friday night is nothing short of incredible. We can't thank the fans enough."

Come on Gaz. Who are you trying to kid?? For that to be the attendance you're basically looking at a sold out home end and an empty away end (cos there must have only been a few hundred Dundee Utd fans).

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Originally Posted by 3pm

I thought they were all the same person?

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They are, but not as any of the three mentioned. :agree:

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Originally Posted by 7062

Just watched the highlights of last nights game. Them v Dundee Utd. And then read Gary Locke:

"To get 13,500 on a Friday night is nothing short of incredible. We can't thank the fans enough."

Come on Gaz. Who are you trying to kid?? For that to be the attendance you're basically looking at a sold out home end and an empty away end (cos there must have only been a few hundred Dundee Utd fans).

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900 and odd Utd fans.

http://www.lrytas.lt/lietuvos-diena/...ne-nusauti.htm


This is an article in today's Lithuanian Press about an interview with our Prince. It links in with a Heart of Midlothian search so they must get a mention.

I can't seem to progress from page 1 of the article.

Maybe Google Translate ( Lithuanian Format ) is being overworked by brokebackers at the moment. :greengrin

Jamboeyrie on Kickback; "The club's parent company, Forth Investments plc, entered receivership in 1991.Sir Tom Farmer acquired control of the club from the receiver for £3 million and creditors were bumped"

No creditors of Hibernian Football Club were "bumped", in 1991 in much the same way that no one was "bumped" by Hearts in 1905, despite the club being liquidated. In both instances all debts pertaining to the football club (s) were paid post insolvency. Both events were a paper excercise (Farmer had control of Hibs for almost a year prior to administration) and achieved the outcome desired for the respective owners.

In 1991 Hibs could have bumped a lot of debt, as could Hearts in 1905, but they didn't.

Different times, different people, different values from the Hearts of today.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser1962

Jamboeyrie on Kickback; "The club's parent company, Forth Investments plc, entered receivership in 1991.Sir Tom Farmer acquired control of the club from the receiver for £3 million and creditors were bumped"

No creditors of Hibernian Football Club were "bumped", in 1991 in much the same way that no one was "bumped" by Hearts in 1905, despite the club being liquidated. In both instances all debts pertaining to the football club (s) were paid post insolvency. Both events were a paper excercise (Farmer had control of Hibs for almost a year prior to administration) and achieved the outcome desired for the respective owners.

In 1991 Hibs could have bumped a lot of debt, as could Hearts in 1905, but they didn't.

Different times, different people, different values from the Hearts of today.

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I think this is a great post

The saddest part of all this is that the younger generation of jambos don't care that their heroes from 2012 sold their soul and their history to do it.

Bumping the poppy fund but trying to convince the world this was the same club as the club of macrae etc... Ouch.

They've stopped being the club they were
The penny hasn't dropped yet, as this season they engineered "a cause" and it was all an sfa conspiracy etc

But next year all of that gloss and make up gets stripped away
The penny will drop and drop quickly
All it will take is a clutch of poor results to Dumbarton etc

Stage 1 - expect Gary locke to take blame
Stage 2 - demands for new players
Stage 3 - creeping realisation that even if there was no sfa / spfl embargo, they can't afford the quality of player they used to watch during the financial suicide years

Stage 4 - and heres the bit - they'll start walking away, you'll hear things like "Scottish footballs finished"
Never hearts fault you realise
Always someone else's

But same outcome - 5000 crowds max

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No creditors of Hibernian Football Club were "bumped", in 1991 in much the same way that no one was "bumped" by Hearts in 1905, despite the club being liquidated. In both instances all debts pertaining to the football club (s) were paid post insolvency. Both events were a paper excercise (Farmer had control of Hibs for almost a year prior to administration) and achieved the outcome desired for the respective owners.

In 1991 Hibs could have bumped a lot of debt, as could Hearts in 1905, but they didn't.

Different times, different people, different values from the Hearts of today.

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:agree: All correct, Was a shareholder pre and post 1991 and this was all known at the time, sadly for this generation and mentality of yam there was no "bumping" jeez, you'd think they would be able to know a bumping when they see one by now. If they were used to seeing, never mind interpreting published and certified accounts they'd know this was the case.

Not so much a cheap shot as a desperate sounding distraction even if it was accurate. We are and have been paying our bills for decades. Often to the very same businesses, taxman and charities that they errrrrrrrrr...................bumped.

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Originally Posted by Bostonhibby

:agree: All correct, Was a shareholder pre and post 1991 and this was all known at the time, sadly for this generation and mentality of yam there was no "bumping" jeez, you'd think they would be able to know a bumping when they see one by now. If they were used to seeing, never mind interpreting published and certified accounts they'd know this was the case.

Not so much a cheap shot as a desperate sounding distraction even if it was accurate. We are and have been paying our bills for decades. Often to the very same businesses, taxman and charities that they errrrrrrrrr...................bumped.

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It's yam straw-clutching at it's very worst. :agree:

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Originally Posted by matty_f

:agree: All correct, Was a shareholder pre and post 1991 and this was all known at the time, sadly for this generation and mentality of yam there was no "bumping" jeez, you'd think they would be able to know a bumping when they see one by now. If they were used to seeing, never mind interpreting published and certified accounts they'd know this was the case.

Not so much a cheap shot as a desperate sounding distraction even if it was accurate. We are and have been paying our bills for decades. Often to the very same businesses, taxman and charities that they errrrrrrrrr...................bumped.

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Great posts from you and Boston !!:top marks
My son and I were both shareholders at that time as well as being friends with STF since the 1960's .
I was also involved in the Mercer fiasco and some of the subsequent " negotiations /discussions" that went on leading up to STF's involvement and everything you write is correct in principle :thumbsup:
Smacks of Yam desperation !!

:flag:

Have they received their shares yet?!?

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Originally Posted by 3pm

Locke seems to think there is a meeting on Friday.

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To costly to print.

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Originally Posted by poolman

I live in Wardlaw Place, nipped into the Diggers on way home Fae work ( its ma local ) place was nowhere nearly as busy as a usual for a home game

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Because Budge wants control?

In your scenario, she would only have 29% of the shares. If she has invested all that money, she'd want to keep control until she was sure that she was getting it back. For all she knew, the other 71% could be in the hands of f'wits :greengrin

Besides, the CVA has already been proposed with FOH buying the UBIG (and UKIO?) shares. Don't think it can be changed this late on.

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Thanks Sergey/robinp/CWG/Bajillions.

So Budge will keep control until Save Hearts In Trouble have scraped together enough direct debits to buy her out in full. That's going to take a lot longer than five years once they start struggling in the lower leagues, leading to attendances decreasing and DD cancellations increasing.

Where has this 5 year plan come from? I thought they were going to be fan owned in 3.

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Originally Posted by Geo_1875

Where has this 5 year plan come from? I thought they were going to be fan owned in 3.

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They will be when FOH have raised £6.3m. However long that takes.

Right, let's have a look at what we know regarding this alleged meeting..........

Barry Anderson broke the story and we don't know his source.

BDO have said nothing.

Our man in the PBS has heard nothing.

FoH initially said that there was no meeting and are now just responding to press speculation by saying that they believe there is a meeting.

UBIG's Administrator has been contacted directly by 2 users on this site and the answer given was "I do not have any information about such a meeting". That's a direct quote by the way............ from UBIG's Administrator, not some BDO tea boy.

Notice has been given for every other UBIG (and UKIO) meeting but there's nothing to be found for this one.


So one of two things has happened here.......

There's a monumental cover up going on, just for the benefit of Hearts, and by leaking the story Barry Anderson has made a complete arse of himself.

There's no meeting and Barry Anderson has made a complete arse of himself.

Anyone see a link? :hilarious

I have amused myself over recent years by writing down (for my own amusement) some of the "facts" and figures associated with the financial mess that is HoM. One of the things that has been consistent over the years has been the reasonably lucid and rational comments on the situation on this forum. There are so many serious questions that are raised when a financial crime is committed; especially when it is compounded by idiotic comments from the media, the fans and the club. Simply considering the current situation where, as far as I can see, there are three major stumbling blocks to the smooth purchase and survival of HoM, namely, the "frozen" shares, the ownership (and value) of the land / ground and the longer term financial viability of the club. Even with a meeting next week where the outcome somehow miraculously provides a clear road for the exit from administation there is still the issue of the future. If there are any of the deluded ones looking in, there are some other issues that you might want clarification on...Exactly how many shares are there in HoM? (I make it 283 million (as ludicrous as it sounds) but I am happy for anyone to check the figures for themselves). If Ms Budge can purchase a majority for £50K then that should give you an idea of how much they have come down in value. Is that a good investment, and if so, why? Is due diligence an issue in terms of the purchase of the club and, if so, what happens in the event of the discovery of criminal activity? For instance, what happened to the £1.8 million that the fans paid for shares that, as far as I am aware, were never issued? Will Ms Budge provide the shares? Did the shares ever exist? If not, isn't that a crime and has it been, or will it be, reported? What is the market value of the land and why would any creditor or administator be prepared to sell it at anything less than maket value and can Ms Budge or FoH afford to pay the market price as well as maintain the PBS? Just a few of the many points that come to mind...but good luck next week with that meeting.

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Originally Posted by Mikey

Right, let's have a look at what we know regarding this alleged meeting..........

Barry Anderson broke the story and we don't know his source.

BDO have said nothing.

Our man in the PBS has heard nothing.

FoH initially said that there was no meeting and are now just responding to press speculation by saying that they believe there is a meeting.

UBIG's Administrator has been contacted directly by 2 users on this site and the answer given was "I do not have any information about such a meeting". That's a direct quote by the way............ from UBIG's Administrator, not some BDO tea boy.

Notice has been given for every other UBIG (and UKIO) meeting but there's nothing to be found for this one.


So one of two things has happened here.......

There's a monumental cover up going on, just for the benefit of Hearts, and by leaking the story Barry Anderson has made a complete arse of himself.

There's no meeting and Barry Anderson has made a complete arse of himself.

Anyone see a link? :hilarious

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Here's a link http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.co...oost-1-2979230.....unfortunately, I can't link to the tweet where he claimed it was a million quid 'cos he's deleted it :jamboclow

I strongly believe that there will be a meeting of the Carrick Knowe Bowling Club committee next week.

Furthermore, I'm certain that the purchasing of pork scratchings to be served as bar snacks is on the agenda.

I know that the chairman and secretary of the bowling club know nothing about this meeting.

I'm not a member of the Carrick Knowe Bowling club myself.

In fact I've never been to Edinburgh, I'm Lithuanian.

How do I know? I'm not saying but I'm a reporter on a local rag so it's my business to know these things.

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Originally Posted by tomf

I have amused myself over recent years by writing down (for my own amusement) some of the "facts" and figures associated with the financial mess that is HoM. One of the things that has been consistent over the years has been the reasonably lucid and rational comments on the situation on this forum. There are so many serious questions that are raised when a financial crime is committed; especially when it is compounded by idiotic comments from the media, the fans and the club. Simply considering the current situation where, as far as I can see, there are three major stumbling blocks to the smooth purchase and survival of HoM, namely, the "frozen" shares, the ownership (and value) of the land / ground and the longer term financial viability of the club. Even with a meeting next week where the outcome somehow miraculously provides a clear road for the exit from administation there is still the issue of the future. If there are any of the deluded ones looking in, there are some other issues that you might want clarification on...Exactly how many shares are there in HoM? (I make it 283 million (as ludicrous as it sounds) but I am happy for anyone to check the figures for themselves). If Ms Budge can purchase a majority for £50K then that should give you an idea of how much they have come down in value. Is that a good investment, and if so, why? Is due diligence an issue in terms of the purchase of the club and, if so, what happens in the event of the discovery of criminal activity? For instance, what happened to the £1.8 million that the fans paid for shares that, as far as I am aware, were never issued? Will Ms Budge provide the shares? Did the shares ever exist? If not, isn't that a crime and has it been, or will it be, reported? What is the market value of the land and why would any creditor or administator be prepared to sell it at anything less than maket value and can Ms Budge or FoH afford to pay the market price as well as maintain the PBS? Just a few of the many points that come to mind...but good luck next week with that meeting.

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All excellent points.

I would clarify the bit in bold, however. If the CVA goes through, the land and property are part of the deal. They are owned by HMFC. Therefore UBIG and UKIO transferring the shares in HMFC to FOH/AB effectively transfers the PBS as well.

There is no separate deal for the PBS, if that's what you mean. £2.5m gets the lot.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

All excellent points.

I would clarify the bit in bold, however. If the CVA goes through, the land and property are part of the deal. They are owned by HMFC. Therefore UBIG and UKIO transferring the shares in HMFC to FOH/AB effectively transfers the PBS as well.

There is no separate deal for the PBS, if that's what you mean. £2.5m gets the lot.

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But if the CVA doesn't go through, as now seems likely...

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

All excellent points.

I would clarify the bit in bold, however. If the CVA goes through, the land and property are part of the deal. They are owned by HMFC. Therefore UBIG and UKIO transferring the shares in HMFC to FOH/AB effectively transfers the PBS as well.

There is no separate deal for the PBS, if that's what you mean. £2.5m gets the lot.

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And that right there, as they say, is the rub.

Banderson still mentioning this meeting in the Hearts article in todays EN and a part quote" On a more positive note, Locke welcome the news revealed by the Evening News on Thursday that a creditors meeting in Lithuania next week could help Hearts exit administratio" still spouting his p***.
.

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Originally Posted by greenpaper55

Banderson still mentioning this meeting in the Hearts article in todays EN and a part quote" On a more positive note, Locke welcome the news revealed by the Evening News on Thursday that a creditors meeting in Lithuania next week could help Hearts exit administratio" still spouting his p***.
.

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So Hearts don't know about it, FoH don't know about it, BDO don't know about it but Banderson it's Banderson that tells Gary Locke:greengrin

You would have thought someone in anofficial capacity would have bother to phone or email to check in the few days since Banderson 1st mentioned it. Yet still no confirmations

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Originally Posted by greenpaper55

Banderson still mentioning this meeting in the Hearts article in todays EN and a part quote" On a more positive note, Locke welcome the news revealed by the Evening News on Thursday that a creditors meeting in Lithuania next week could help Hearts exit administratio" still spouting his p***.
.

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Did he mention what time it starts at and if there will be tea and coffee available ?

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Originally Posted by greenpaper55

Banderson still mentioning this meeting in the Hearts article in todays EN and a part quote" On a more positive note, Locke welcome the news revealed by the Evening News on Thursday that a creditors meeting in Lithuania next week could help Hearts exit administratio" still spouting his p***.
.

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I wonder what other creditors meeting he is talking about other than the UBIG creditors meeting which the UBIG Administrator claimed was not taking place. Are they trying to get UBIG to transfer the shares behind the Administrator's back?

They can't . The administrator has possession of them.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

They can't . The administrator has possession of them.

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But I thought this man had them?

The_Iceman

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Originally Posted by GreenLake

I wonder what other creditors meeting he is talking about other than the UBIG creditors meeting which the UBIG Administrator claimed was not taking place. Are they trying to get UBIG to transfer the shares behind the Administrator's back?

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You get the impression they are up to something. All this mention of Mrs. Budges lawyers trying to do deals, suggests they are trying to find some way round things in Lt.

Why so desperate for it to be done by next Friday though? It's as if they are saying "next Friday or bust" meaning all involved will (have to) walk away if no deal is done. Months ago Jackson hinted at the end of March being a cut off point.

Pleasing.

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Originally Posted by Filled Rolls

You get the impression they are up to something. All this mention of Mrs. Budges lawyers trying to do deals, suggests they are trying to find some way round things in Lt.

Why so desperate for it to be done by next Friday though? It's as if they are saying "next Friday or bust" meaning all involved will (have to) walk away if no deal is done. Months ago Jackson hinted at the end of March being a cut off point.

Pleasing.

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Which is where I thing Banderson got his meeting from. He set a reminder on his phone and he assumes there must be a meeting on Friday to allow DHL to deliver the shares on Monday.

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Originally Posted by Filled Rolls

You get the impression they are up to something. All this mention of Mrs. Budges lawyers trying to do deals, suggests they are trying to find some way round things in Lt.

Why so desperate for it to be done by next Friday though? It's as if they are saying "next Friday or bust" meaning all involved will (have to) walk away if no deal is done. Months ago Jackson hinted at the end of March being a cut off point.

Pleasing.

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It certainly looks like they need to start selling 2014/15 STs soon or else they simply won't make it until the end of the season.

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Originally Posted by Peevemor

It certainly looks like they need to start selling 2014/15 STs soon or else they simply won't make it until the end of the season.

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Maybe they can get their sponsors to advance them money from next seasons lowland league shirt deal.

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Originally Posted by Filled Rolls

You get the impression they are up to something. All this mention of Mrs. Budges lawyers trying to do deals, suggests they are trying to find some way round things in Lt.

Why so desperate for it to be done by next Friday though? It's as if they are saying "next Friday or bust" meaning all involved will (have to) walk away if no deal is done. Months ago Jackson hinted at the end of March being a cut off point.

Pleasing.

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So it boils down to either yet another staggering piece of incompetence by Barry or a barely believable attempt at illegality by Budge and her lawyers.

I know my money is on the more mundane choice.

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Originally Posted by Peevemor

It certainly looks like they need to start selling 2014/15 STs soon or else they simply won't make it until the end of the season.

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CWG will be along shortly but, while we're waiting...

They can't. BDO have already admitted as much.


(or is this another 'whoosh' moment that I've fallen for....again :wink: )

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Originally Posted by tomf

I have amused myself over recent years by writing down (for my own amusement) some of the "facts" and figures associated with the financial mess that is HoM. One of the things that has been consistent over the years has been the reasonably lucid and rational comments on the situation on this forum. There are so many serious questions that are raised when a financial crime is committed; especially when it is compounded by idiotic comments from the media, the fans and the club. Simply considering the current situation where, as far as I can see, there are three major stumbling blocks to the smooth purchase and survival of HoM, namely, the "frozen" shares, the ownership (and value) of the land / ground and the longer term financial viability of the club. Even with a meeting next week where the outcome somehow miraculously provides a clear road for the exit from administation there is still the issue of the future. If there are any of the deluded ones looking in, there are some other issues that you might want clarification on...Exactly how many shares are there in HoM? (I make it 283 million (as ludicrous as it sounds) but I am happy for anyone to check the figures for themselves). If Ms Budge can purchase a majority for £50K then that should give you an idea of how much they have come down in value. Is that a good investment, and if so, why? Is due diligence an issue in terms of the purchase of the club and, if so, what happens in the event of the discovery of criminal activity? For instance, what happened to the £1.8 million that the fans paid for shares that, as far as I am aware, were never issued? Will Ms Budge provide the shares? Did the shares ever exist? If not, isn't that a crime and has it been, or will it be, reported? What is the market value of the land and why would any creditor or administator be prepared to sell it at anything less than maket value and can Ms Budge or FoH afford to pay the market price as well as maintain the PBS? Just a few of the many points that come to mind...but good luck next week with that meeting.

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Good post.

I also suspect that the money used to provide Hearts with debt forgiveness and debt for equity deals will be of more interest to the Lithuanian investigators than the book debt owed by the club to both UKIO or UBIG. I would be surprised if anything is let go until the financial relationships between the group companies has been examined and understood.

Here's my favourite ever post on Kickback - perversely relating to Hibs fans.



"The Kubler-Ross model suggests that there are 5 stages of grief; Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression and Acceptance.

It would appear that they are moving on to stage 2, as so far we've had lots of denial.

Denial - we had a better card display, we would have won if the ref hadn't cheated, hearts were financially doping etc

And now on to anger, so eloquently scribed for us above by another of the sirgay minions.

The next 3 stages are Bargaining, Depression and acceptance.

It will be fun to watch them on the journey. "


It certainly is fun watching them on this journey!

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Originally Posted by keekaboo

CWG will be along shortly but, while we're waiting...

They can't. BDO have already admitted as much.


(or is this another 'whoosh' moment that I've fallen for....again :wink: )

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Nope. CWG will confirm your musings as highly factual, if only he would tell us where BDO will get their fee from. :-)

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Originally Posted by HUTCHYHIBBY

Nope. CWG will confirm your musings as highly factual, if only he would tell us where BDO will get their fee from. :-)

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Yep, that is indeed the great mystery in all of this


:wink:

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Originally Posted by Dashing Bob S

Here's my favourite ever post on Kickback - perversely relating to Hibs fans.



"The Kubler-Ross model suggests that there are 5 stages of grief; Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression and Acceptance.

It would appear that they are moving on to stage 2, as so far we've had lots of denial.

Denial - we had a better card display, we would have won if the ref hadn't cheated, hearts were financially doping etc

And now on to anger, so eloquently scribed for us above by another of the sirgay minions.

The next 3 stages are Bargaining, Depression and acceptance.

It will be fun to watch them on the journey. "


It certainly is fun watching them on this journey!

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But wait simmer the moment right now with " The Meeting Scheduled for Friday " they have moved to Euphoria Stage which includes Hope and Excitement they will drop to stage 3 when the meeting we all know wont happen except them does not happen.

Stage 4 kicks in after we horse them in the Derby.

Stage 5 on Monday Morning Relegated horsed by us and no meeting no hope depression and finally acceptance.

and yes its gonna be fun to watch.

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Originally Posted by Dashing Bob S

Here's my favourite ever post on Kickback - perversely relating to Hibs fans.



"The Kubler-Ross model suggests that there are 5 stages of grief; Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression and Acceptance.

It would appear that they are moving on to stage 2, as so far we've had lots of denial.

Denial - we had a better card display, we would have won if the ref hadn't cheated, hearts were financially doping etc

And now on to anger, so eloquently scribed for us above by another of the sirgay minions.

The next 3 stages are Bargaining, Depression and acceptance.

It will be fun to watch them on the journey. "


It certainly is fun watching them on this journey!

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They are as up to date with Elizabeth Kubler-Ross as they are with everything else. It is now a seven stage model and the first stage is shock or disbelief followed by denial. There is little point explaining the rest to them as they are stuck between these two.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser1962

They are as up to date with Elizabeth Kubler-Ross as they are with everything else. It is now a seven stage model and the first stage is shock or disbelief followed by denial. There is little point explaining the rest to them as they are stuck between these two.

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I think all of this stuff pointing out that we also were in debt and had financial problems sees them heading towards experimentation. In that they have accepted they are in a mess, and are now looking at what happens after things go wrong.

Regrettably they have reached this stage too late to make any real difference. A recurring theme on here, over the years, ha been, living beyond your means ends in tears. In fact it is a schism that continues in our support.

If they could only have realised earlier that the same rules apply to them as apply to us they may have been able to avoid this. Instead they truly believed all the big team nonsense and thought we were unique in our folly.

Always amuses me that hearts fans (and plenty Hibs fans) forget that anyone can win a cup final 5-1 (our last cup win springs to mind)

Also most teams can lose these games 5-1 (check 1996 for reference, rangers vs hearts)

We just don't tend to go overboard about it
And we don't find ourselves going out of business

Is that denial or is that just plain old truth?
Perhaps our eh11 shrinks can help me out here??

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Originally Posted by Filled Rolls

I think all of this stuff pointing out that we also were in debt and had financial problems sees them heading towards experimentation. In that they have accepted they are in a mess, and are now looking at what happens after things go wrong.

Regrettably they have reached this stage too late to make any real difference. A recurring theme on here, over the years, ha been, living beyond your means ends in tears. In fact it is a schism that continues in our support.

If they could only have realised earlier that the same rules apply to them as apply to us they may have been able to avoid this. Instead they truly believed all the big team nonsense and thought we were unique in our folly.

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They are a big team, relatively speaking. To other outfits in Div 2/Lowland League.

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Originally Posted by Springbank

Always amuses me that hearts fans (and plenty Hibs fans) forget that anyone can win a cup final 5-1 (our last cup win springs to mind)

Also most teams can lose these games 5-1 (check 1996 for reference, rangers vs hearts)

We just don't tend to go overboard about it
And we don't find ourselves going out of business

Is that denial or is that just plain old truth?
Perhaps our eh11 shrinks can help me out here??

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It was all worth it. (At least it was when they thought it came free of charge,)

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Originally Posted by Kaiser1962

They are as up to date with Elizabeth Kubler-Ross as they are with everything else. It is now a seven stage model and the first stage is shock or disbelief followed by denial. There is little point explaining the rest to them as they are stuck between these two.

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They do anything they can to avoid 7, even living an 8 day week.

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Originally Posted by HUTCHYHIBBY

Nope. CWG will confirm your musings as highly factual, if only he would tell us where BDO will get their fee from. :-)

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----No effin funny..... oh yez are no effin funy........

v v v v v v v v v v v

:na na:

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Originally Posted by Stonewall

There's been a lot of comments about money laundering on this thread and I've been trying to get my around how this has worked in that the Liths have chucked millions at Hearts but quite how this was cleaned up and recycled back to Romanov in any meaningful amounts I'm not sure. I know various members of his family and other random Liths were employed and were no doubt well rewarded either through Hearts' books or directly from Lithuania. However even if the former is true, as a percentage of what was put into Hearts only a small proportion would be cleaned up even by money laundering standards.

We can only speculate as to the source of the money used to prop up Hearts (and we all have our suspicions) but I can't see how Romanov was recycling significant amounts.

The results of the criminal investigations in Lithuania will make interesting reading I think.

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I think the most suspicious time was when they sold Craig Gordon for £9m and still made a loss. There must have been some unusual items of expenditure going through the accounts that year. And even in the most recent set of accounts, they had a highly suspicious charge payable to Kaunas FC. There must be one or two transactions which might bear investigation.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

All excellent points.

I would clarify the bit in bold, however. If the CVA goes through, the land and property are part of the deal. They are owned by HMFC. Therefore UBIG and UKIO transferring the shares in HMFC to FOH/AB effectively transfers the PBS as well.

There is no separate deal for the PBS, if that's what you mean. £2.5m gets the lot.

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I am happy to stand corrected. My view was based on my understanding that the ground was basically held as surety against a loan and my belief would be that, if the loan repayments have not been maintained, then the deeds are effectively the property of the lender. That may not be the case but I had thought it would be different from the shares. I presume that the other assets, namely, the playing staff under contract who may have a transfer value are also included in the deal. That would mean that shares once valued at £28.3 million being sold for £50K and a ground, valued at £20.5 million in September 2004 being sold for something like £2 million; plus whatever the relevant members of the current playing squad might be worth also being included does make one wonder if the creditors in Lithuania might want to consider the deal before agreeing to anything. This might already have been agreed and resolved by the CVA but my understanding was that the creditors would vote on its acceptance. That too may be a foregone concusion but I wouldn't be taking anything for granted if it were me. They do have calculators in Lithuania.

Those blasted shares arrived yet fawlty?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tomf

I am happy to stand corrected. My view was based on my understanding that the ground was basically held as surety against a loan and my belief would be that, if the loan repayments have not been maintained, then the deeds are effectively the property of the lender. That may not be the case but I had thought it would be different from the shares. I presume that the other assets, namely, the playing staff under contract who may have a transfer value are also included in the deal. That would mean that shares once valued at £28.3 million being sold for £50K and a ground, valued at £20.5 million in September 2004 being sold for something like £2 million; plus whatever the relevant members of the current playing squad might be worth also being included does make one wonder if the creditors in Lithuania might want to consider the deal before agreeing to anything. This might already have been agreed and resolved by the CVA but my understanding was that the creditors would vote on its acceptance. That too may be a foregone concusion but I wouldn't be taking anything for granted if it were me. They do have calculators in Lithuania.

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Cheers.

The CVA has still to be formally approved by the UKIO creditors (in effect, the Insurance guys,whose name I keep forgetting, as they have the voting power.) Whether they will vote for it is still unknown. It may well be nodded through and given the famous rubber stamp. It may be questioned.

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Originally Posted by Dashing Bob S

Those blasted shares arrived yet fawlty?

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They certainly are fawlty!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grunt

I think the most suspicious time was when they sold Craig Gordon for £9m and still made a loss. There must have been some unusual items of expenditure going through the accounts that year. And even in the most recent set of accounts, they had a highly suspicious charge payable to Kaunas FC. There must be one or two transactions which might bear investigation.

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How about the fact that wages seemed to be paid each month via a bank transfer from Lithuania (as became clear when they started having problems). And as mentioned above, large chunks of cash were leaving Edinburgh in return for Lithuania. If you were laundering money, this seems like a way to set it up: cash from as yet unknown sources in, cash from legitimate trading out.

We shall see what the investigators find out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jacomoseven

How about the fact that wages seemed to be paid each month via a bank transfer from Lithuania (as became clear when they started having problems). And as mentioned above, large chunks of cash were leaving Edinburgh in return for Lithuania. If you were laundering money, this seems like a way to set it up: cash from as yet unknown sources in, cash from legitimate trading out.

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Way back when Vlad first arrived a discussion took place on here as to how money could be laundered through Hearts. The above was just one scenario mentioned.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grunt

I think the most suspicious time was when they sold Craig Gordon for £9m and still made a loss. There must have been some unusual items of expenditure going through the accounts that year. And even in the most recent set of accounts, they had a highly suspicious charge payable to Kaunas FC. There must be one or two transactions which might bear investigation.

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that got spent on fuel for nades Lamborghini

Couple of my mates attended the Willie Bauld memorial dinner at Tynie last night. One of them said a lot of talk by many attendees was how useless and unprofessional Barry Anderson has been over the last year or so. Even they hate him :greengrin

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Coco Bryce

Couple of my mates attended the Willie Bauld memorial dinner at Tynie last night. One of them said a lot of talk by many attendees was how useless and unprofessional Barry Anderson has been over the last year or so. Even they hate him :greengrin

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I don't hate #allisbarry as such. It just annoys me that such a useless prat is employed at a level way above his abilities. Office pencil sharpener would be a better use of his talents

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Coco Bryce

Couple of my mates attended the Willie Bauld memorial dinner at Tynie last night. One of them said a lot of talk by many attendees was how useless and unprofessional Barry Anderson has been over the last year or so. Even they hate him :greengrin

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They only noticed over the last year or so?

For the whole of Vlad's tenure he soft soaped them with chat like "corridors of power at Tynecastle", "Mr Romanov's ambition" and "self-sufficient".

Bet they liked that sort of unprofessionalism.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Coco Bryce

Couple of my mates attended the Willie Bauld memorial dinner at Tynie last night. One of them said a lot of talk by many attendees was how useless and unprofessional Barry Anderson has been over the last year or so. Even they hate him :greengrin

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He's tried to be their pal, and now they are turning on him and saying its all his fault. The fact is they haven't needed anyone to point out the shambles - it's been staring them in the face for years, in the shape of a stand built in 1914.

The minute Vlad told them about his plan to replace Archie Leitchs masterpiece, they should have suspected a crock. The fact that they didn't run him out of town, but lamely went along with his lunacy, has been their biggest failing.

It's not Banderson's fault they chose to believe his Vlad / FOH / Budge propaganda, the facts have been here for years in this thread which they chose to ignore! Plenty have looked in and poured scorn over words which have made more sense than those of #allisbarry

.net seekers of true and justice, now the neighbours from West can suffer.

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Originally Posted by Kato

Way back when Vlad first arrived a discussion took place on here as to how money could be laundered through Hearts. The above was just one scenario mentioned.

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If you are looking for a link between Hearts and money laundering here is an article that might be of interest.

http://grahamstack.wordpress.com/201...ukraine-graft/

On first reading it might just appear that the connection is just some Vlad stooge who likes Maroon but go down to para 9.

This company Corpmark Impex LLP ( Virgin Islands registered and now dissolved ) rung a bell.

In Hearts 2010 Accounts £ 14.2 million of the Clubs debts were assigned to Impex Net and £ 5.9 million was written off.

If someone could link the two Impex companies, it could be shown that Hearts were being funded by the proceeds of crime.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by greenginger

If you are looking for a link between Hearts and money laundering here is an article that might be of interest.

http://grahamstack.wordpress.com/201...ukraine-graft/

On first reading it might just appear that the connection is just some Vlad stooge who likes Maroon but go down to para 9.

This company Corpmark Impex LLP ( Virgin Islands registered and now dissolved ) rungs a bell.

In Hearts 2010 Accounts £ 14.2 million of the Clubs debts were assigned to Impex Net and £ 5.9 million was written off.

If someone could link the two Impex companies, it could be shown that Hearts were being funded by the proceeds of crime.

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I take it the Herbalife didn't work out to well for Stacky so he chose a new sideline :wink:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by greenginger

If you are looking for a link between Hearts and money laundering here is an article that might be of interest.

http://grahamstack.wordpress.com/201...ukraine-graft/

On first reading it might just appear that the connection is just some Vlad stooge who likes Maroon but go down to para 9.

This company Corpmark Impex LLP ( Virgin Islands registered and now dissolved ) rungs a bell.

In Hearts 2010 Accounts £ 14.2 million of the Clubs debts were assigned to Impex Net and £ 5.9 million was written off.

If someone could link the two Impex companies, it could be shown that Hearts were being funded by the proceeds of crime.

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They both share the name Impex - will that do?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by greenginger

If you are looking for a link between Hearts and money laundering here is an article that might be of interest.

http://grahamstack.wordpress.com/201...ukraine-graft/

On first reading it might just appear that the connection is just some Vlad stooge who likes Maroon but go down to para 9.

This company Corpmark Impex LLP ( Virgin Islands registered and now dissolved ) rungs a bell.

In Hearts 2010 Accounts £ 14.2 million of the Clubs debts were assigned to Impex Net and £ 5.9 million was written off.

If someone could link the two Impex companies, it could be shown that Hearts were being funded by the proceeds of crime.

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If this was proved what would be the likely implications for Hearts as they currently are? Free of Vlad etc etc.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by greenginger

If you are looking for a link between Hearts and money laundering here is an article that might be of interest.

http://grahamstack.wordpress.com/201...ukraine-graft/

On first reading it might just appear that the connection is just some Vlad stooge who likes Maroon but go down to para 9.

This company Corpmark Impex LLP ( Virgin Islands registered and now dissolved ) rung a bell.

In Hearts 2010 Accounts £ 14.2 million of the Clubs debts were assigned to Impex Net and £ 5.9 million was written off.

If someone could link the two Impex companies, it could be shown that Hearts were being funded by the proceeds of crime.

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If its Corpmark Impex LLP and City Impex LLP then they had two matching directors in IRELAND & OVERSEAS ACQUISITIONS LIMITED and MILLTOWN CORPORATE SERVICES LTD who share an address at No.35 New Road, Belize City, Belize.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaiser1962

If its Corpmark Impex LLP and City Impex LLP then they had two matching directors in IRELAND & OVERSEAS ACQUISITIONS LIMITED and MILLTOWN CORPORATE SERVICES LTD who share an address at No.35 New Road, Belize City, Belize.

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The name of the Company that wrote off Hearts debts was Impex Net according to the Accounts prepared by Johnston Carmichael.

I don't know if the auditors were required to establish if that was the correct name of the company providing the funding or if the money was " clean ".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by greenginger

If you are looking for a link between Hearts and money laundering here is an article that might be of interest.

http://grahamstack.wordpress.com/201...ukraine-graft/

On first reading it might just appear that the connection is just some Vlad stooge who likes Maroon but go down to para 9.

This company Corpmark Impex LLP ( Virgin Islands registered and now dissolved ) rung a bell.

In Hearts 2010 Accounts £ 14.2 million of the Clubs debts were assigned to Impex Net and £ 5.9 million was written off.

If someone could link the two Impex companies, it could be shown that Hearts were being funded by the proceeds of crime.

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Stopped reading after they tried to tell me that Hearts are a venerable club.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaiser1962

If its Corpmark Impex LLP and City Impex LLP then they had two matching directors in IRELAND & OVERSEAS ACQUISITIONS LIMITED and MILLTOWN CORPORATE SERVICES LTD who share an address at No.35 New Road, Belize City, Belize.

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Next door to Greggs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoboHarry

If this was proved what would be the likely implications for Hearts as they currently are? Free of Vlad etc etc.....

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There would be no great implications for Hearts as a club/company, given that they are about to (at best) come under new ownership. There would be a smell, of course, but we're used to that.

If any money-laundering, or proceeds of crime, could be proven, the implications would be for individuals within the company. Even at that, one would have to prove intent, knowledge, conspiracy etc.

There might also be implications for their advisers.......and I'll deal with GG's query about the auditors in a minute, once I get my head around it :greengrin

Right.....the auditors.

As far as getting evidence about the write-off of the debt is concerned, a signed letter from that company on its headed paper should be sufficient as a starting-point. However, given the amount of the write-off, my instinct would be to find out a little more about the company itself. Not necessarily from an audit-evidence point of view, but from the perspective of finding out more about the environment in which Hearts/UBIG/UKIO operated. Remember, of course, that Johnston Carmichael found it difficult to get any information out of UBIG and their auditors, so any additional information would be very useful.

On to money-laundering.

The writing off of a debt does not, of itself, suggest money-laundering. (That term, by the way, has become a bit of a misnomer.... we are really talking about "profiting from the proceeds of crime"... but ML is easier to say.) However, again given the lack of clarity around UBIG etc, it would have been good practice on JC's part to establish "why" the debt was written off. Good practice from an audit point of view, but also to try and satisfy their anti-ML obligations.

Did they do that? We can't know.

Let's assume that they did, and that the reasons appeared to be sound, sensible, commercial etc. In that case, JC have nothing to be concerned about in that particular aspect.

Now, let's assume that they did, and that the reasons are none of the above. If that is the case, the law is quite clear. If an accountant/lawyer etc has "suspicion" (not evidence, or knowledge.... mere suspicion) that someone with whom they have come into contact in their business dealings has profited from the proceeds of crime, then they MUST report that suspicion to the authorities. (at the last count, that was the National Crime Agency, but they keep changing the bloody rules.)

So, if JC suspect that Impex or Hearts have profited from crime, and they report that suspicion, they have satisfied their obligations..... whether or not anything comes from that report. If they don't report it, they (specifically, probably the auditor in charge of the job, and their Money Laundering Reporting Officer) could be liable to 7 years in the jail.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

On to money-laundering.

The writing off of a debt does not, of itself, suggest money-laundering. (That term, by the way, has become a bit of a misnomer.... we are really talking about "profiting from the proceeds of crime"... but ML is easier to say.) However, again given the lack of clarity around UBIG etc, it would have been good practice on JC's part to establish "why" the debt was written off. Good practice from an audit point of view, but also to try and satisfy their anti-ML obligations.

Did they do that? We can't know.

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Surely the movement of funds inter company, or through companies in off shore tax havens, would be a matter of interest to the Lithuanian investigators.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Falcon

Surely the movement of funds inter company, or through companies in off shore tax havens, would be a matter of interest to the Lithuanian investigators.

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Indeed it would. And, if that uncovered suspicion about inter-company transactions that involved officers of HMFC, the UK authorities would be advised accordingly.

My post was from the perspective of HMFC's auditors.... since some on here (no names :greengrin) want to know what their "contribution" was.

Money laundering eh-perhaps solicit some help from the Southside.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Right.....the auditors.

As far as getting evidence about the write-off of the debt is concerned, a signed letter from that company on its headed paper should be sufficient as a starting-point. However, given the amount of the write-off, my instinct would be to find out a little more about the company itself. Not necessarily from an audit-evidence point of view, but from the perspective of finding out more about the environment in which Hearts/UBIG/UKIO operated. Remember, of course, that Johnston Carmichael found it difficult to get any information out of UBIG and their auditors, so any additional information would be very useful.

On to money-laundering.

The writing off of a debt does not, of itself, suggest money-laundering. (That term, by the way, has become a bit of a misnomer.... we are really talking about "profiting from the proceeds of crime"... but ML is easier to say.) However, again given the lack of clarity around UBIG etc, it would have been good practice on JC's part to establish "why" the debt was written off. Good practice from an audit point of view, but also to try and satisfy their anti-ML obligations.

Did they do that? We can't know.

Let's assume that they did, and that the reasons appeared to be sound, sensible, commercial etc. In that case, JC have nothing to be concerned about in that particular aspect.

Now, let's assume that they did, and that the reasons are none of the above. If that is the case, the law is quite clear. If an accountant/lawyer etc has "suspicion" (not evidence, or knowledge.... mere suspicion) that someone with whom they have come into contact in their business dealings has profited from the proceeds of crime, then they MUST report that suspicion to the authorities. (at the last count, that was the National Crime Agency, but they keep changing the bloody rules.)

So, if JC suspect that Impex or Hearts have profited from crime, and they report that suspicion, they have satisfied their obligations..... whether or not anything comes from that report. If they don't report it, they (specifically, probably the auditor in charge of the job, and their Money Laundering Reporting Officer) could be liable to 7 years in the jail.

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We need a leak of the calls recorded from Vlad's mobile by the intelligence services. Is Edward Snowden a Hibby? :greengrin

Sounds like the kind of operation that would offer to pay Craig Thomson to give a penalty & red card in the cup final in 2012

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Springbank

Sounds like the kind of operation that would offer to pay Craig Thomson to give a penalty & red card in the cup final in 2012

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Thomson doesn't need bribed to give a decision against us. Indeed he'd reject such an offer out of hand just to prove that he can be an incompetent cheat without being given an incentive.

In 2008 Hearts converted £12million of debt into equity i.e. shares, which were valued at 10p per share. In 2010 they converted a further £10 million of debt for equity on the same basis, all of which gives a total or 220 million shares. After the second swap the Hearts website indicated that this would mean that the number of ordinary shares would total something in the order of 142 million, which doesn't make arithmetical sense. Their website also indicated that, at that time, UBIG owned slightly less than 47 million ordinary shares or 95% of the company. That doesn't make arithmetical sense either of course. However, at the point, just before it all went belly-up, they asked the fans to provide around £1.8 million for a 10% share of the club, which, unsurprisingly, doesn’t make any arithmetical sense either.

None of these transactions were queried at the time nor have they been since by our dynamic, investigative Scottish media i.e. a journalist with a calculator and opposable thumbs. These figures and statements alone would surely warrant investigation because the shareholders and creditors of both UKIO BANKAS and UBIG might just feel it is reasonable to know exactly how many shares were purchased on their behalf and what percentage they constitute in terms of the overall value of Hearts. It does, after all, reflect on their value. If the club, its shares and assets are now worth £2.5 million, I reckon those fans who provided the £1.8 million should actually own over 70% of Hearts, which I believe is around the amount of shares that are now being purchased for £50K to the apparent delight of the Hearts fans who paid £1.8 million for them last year...or am I just confusing things?
How well all of this reflects on Scottish journalism is fairly obvious...pathetically.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tomf

In 2008 Hearts converted £12million of debt into equity i.e. shares, which were valued at 10p per share. In 2010 they converted a further £10 million of debt for equity on the same basis, all of which gives a total or 220 million shares....

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Aye but.... Shhh... :wink:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tomf

In 2008 Hearts converted £12million of debt into equity i.e. shares, which were valued at 10p per share. In 2010 they converted a further £10 million of debt for equity on the same basis, all of which gives a total or 220 million shares. After the second swap the Hearts website indicated that this would mean that the number of ordinary shares would total something in the order of 142 million, which doesn't make arithmetical sense. Their website also indicated that, at that time, UBIG owned slightly less than 47 million ordinary shares or 95% of the company. That doesn't make arithmetical sense either of course. However, at the point, just before it all went belly-up, they asked the fans to provide around £1.8 million for a 10% share of the club, which, unsurprisingly, doesn’t make any arithmetical sense either.

None of these transactions were queried at the time nor have they been since by our dynamic, investigative Scottish media i.e. a journalist with a calculator and opposable thumbs. These figures and statements alone would surely warrant investigation because the shareholders and creditors of both UKIO BANKAS and UBIG might just feel it is reasonable to know exactly how many shares were purchased on their behalf and what percentage they constitute in terms of the overall value of Hearts. It does, after all, reflect on their value. If the club, its shares and assets are now worth £2.5 million, I reckon those fans who provided the £1.8 million should actually own over 70% of Hearts, which I believe is around the amount of shares that are now being purchased for £50K to the apparent delight of the Hearts fans who paid £1.8 million for them last year...or am I just confusing things?
How well all of this reflects on Scottish journalism is fairly obvious...pathetically.

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Are you suggesting the thick maroon dipsticks already own their club but are on levels of stupidity previously unreached in that they are paying for the club yet again in long term installments while surrendering ownership to an extremely wealthy woman from Drylaw?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tomf

In 2008 Hearts converted £12million of debt into equity i.e. shares, which were valued at 10p per share. In 2010 they converted a further £10 million of debt for equity on the same basis, all of which gives a total or 220 million shares. After the second swap the Hearts website indicated that this would mean that the number of ordinary shares would total something in the order of 142 million, which doesn't make arithmetical sense. Their website also indicated that, at that time, UBIG owned slightly less than 47 million ordinary shares or 95% of the company. That doesn't make arithmetical sense either of course. However, at the point, just before it all went belly-up, they asked the fans to provide around £1.8 million for a 10% share of the club, which, unsurprisingly, doesn’t make any arithmetical sense either.

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Hearts are too big to be bound the laws of traditional mathematics. They have their own yamathematics to cope with the apparent inconsistencies you identify.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Right.....the auditors.

As far as getting evidence about the write-off of the debt is concerned, a signed letter from that company on its headed paper should be sufficient as a starting-point. However, given the amount of the write-off, my instinct would be to find out a little more about the company itself. Not necessarily from an audit-evidence point of view, but from the perspective of finding out more about the environment in which Hearts/UBIG/UKIO operated. Remember, of course, that Johnston Carmichael found it difficult to get any information out of UBIG and their auditors, so any additional information would be very useful.

On to money-laundering.

The writing off of a debt does not, of itself, suggest money-laundering. (That term, by the way, has become a bit of a misnomer.... we are really talking about "profiting from the proceeds of crime"... but ML is easier to say.) However, again given the lack of clarity around UBIG etc, it would have been good practice on JC's part to establish "why" the debt was written off. Good practice from an audit point of view, but also to try and satisfy their anti-ML obligations.

Did they do that? We can't know.

Let's assume that they did, and that the reasons appeared to be sound, sensible, commercial etc. In that case, JC have nothing to be concerned about in that particular aspect.

Now, let's assume that they did, and that the reasons are none of the above. If that is the case, the law is quite clear. If an accountant/lawyer etc has "suspicion" (not evidence, or knowledge.... mere suspicion) that someone with whom they have come into contact in their business dealings has profited from the proceeds of crime, then they MUST report that suspicion to the authorities. (at the last count, that was the National Crime Agency, but they keep changing the bloody rules.)

So, if JC suspect that Impex or Hearts have profited from crime, and they report that suspicion, they have satisfied their obligations..... whether or not anything comes from that report. If they don't report it, they (specifically, probably the auditor in charge of the job, and their Money Laundering Reporting Officer) could be liable to 7 years in the jail.

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The accounts were also not signed off by the auditors for a number of years iirc which would imply that they must have been unhappy with the answers they were getting from the Liths.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Filled Rolls

He's tried to be their pal, and now they are turning on him and saying its all his fault. The fact is they haven't needed anyone to point out the shambles - it's been staring them in the face for years, in the shape of a stand built in 1914.

The minute Vlad told them about his plan to replace Archie Leitchs masterpiece, they should have suspected a crock. The fact that they didn't run him out of town, but lamely went along with his lunacy, has been their biggest failing.

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This!

The fact that despite all the evidence that Vlad was a shyster they chose to back him or were at least compliant in their silence makes them complicit in the death of their club. They've done this to themselves and we should never let them forget it.

OK, a couple of fairly random but associated thoughts on recent posts.
1. Washing the Lithuanian money. IIRC was there not a period where most of Yams marquee signings were officially Kaunas players? I know someone has commented on wages being transferred from Lithuania but I'm sure it would have been possible for loan fees also to have been charged. Mind you, how this would have escaped the eagle eyes of Johnson Carmichael is a mystery! I think GG's probably on the money however re large sums being moved through offshore entities.
2. Building on the above it's yet another wonderful example of Yam ignorance. There are many posters both on Brokeback & EEN who somehow claim we are cheating by playing loan players. This not only ignores the Kaunas situation but forgets recent beauties such as Danny ( nae suspension ) Wilson, Ngoo, who helped them to the LC final & currently McCallum, who TBF, they're desperately trying to forget!
Thank heavens for Yams, it really helps us avoid thinking about our own situation!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stonewall

The accounts were also not signed off by the auditors for a number of years iirc which would imply that they must have been unhappy with the answers they were getting from the Liths.

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They were signed off, with clean audit reports

Edit... Apologies, I misread your post. See Cav's much more expansive, and correct, post below :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

They were signed off, with clean audit reports

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Thanks CWG - memory playing tricks again, another senior moment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tomf

In 2008 Hearts converted £12million of debt into equity i.e. shares, which were valued at 10p per share. In 2010 they converted a further £10 million of debt for equity on the same basis, all of which gives a total or 220 million shares. After the second swap the Hearts website indicated that this would mean that the number of ordinary shares would total something in the order of 142 million, which doesn't make arithmetical sense. Their website also indicated that, at that time, UBIG owned slightly less than 47 million ordinary shares or 95% of the company. That doesn't make arithmetical sense either of course. However, at the point, just before it all went belly-up, they asked the fans to provide around £1.8 million for a 10% share of the club, which, unsurprisingly, doesn’t make any arithmetical sense either.

None of these transactions were queried at the time nor have they been since by our dynamic, investigative Scottish media i.e. a journalist with a calculator and opposable thumbs. These figures and statements alone would surely warrant investigation because the shareholders and creditors of both UKIO BANKAS and UBIG might just feel it is reasonable to know exactly how many shares were purchased on their behalf and what percentage they constitute in terms of the overall value of Hearts. It does, after all, reflect on their value. If the club, its shares and assets are now worth £2.5 million, I reckon those fans who provided the £1.8 million should actually own over 70% of Hearts, which I believe is around the amount of shares that are now being purchased for £50K to the apparent delight of the Hearts fans who paid £1.8 million for them last year...or am I just confusing things?
How well all of this reflects on Scottish journalism is fairly obvious...pathetically.

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There's a confusion between nominal value, issue price and share premiums here. The 2008 share issue consisted of £34,285,714 shares with a nominal value of 10p - that increased the share capital by £3.4m (rounded off). They were issued at a price of 35p - a premium of 25p - which increased the share premium by £8.5m. The issue reduced debt £12m - 34m x 35p. The other conversion followed a similar pattern.

The real question was why this was done. The club was already worthless and this action reduced UBIG's potentially recoverable debtor into an unrecoverable (i.e. worthless) investment. Since UBIG was an investment-based concern it seems likely that the motive was to falsely inflate their balance sheet by massively overvaluing the HoMFC shareholding.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

They were signed off, with clean audit reports

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Was there not a wee qualification that JC had limited information regarding UBIG and that the Yams were entirely dependant on UBIG's continued support? I think this appeared for a few years.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tomf

In 2008 Hearts converted £12million of debt into equity i.e. shares, which were valued at 10p per share. In 2010 they converted a further £10 million of debt for equity on the same basis, all of which gives a total or 220 million shares. After the second swap the Hearts website indicated that this would mean that the number of ordinary shares would total something in the order of 142 million, which doesn't make arithmetical sense. Their website also indicated that, at that time, UBIG owned slightly less than 47 million ordinary shares or 95% of the company. That doesn't make arithmetical sense either of course. However, at the point, just before it all went belly-up, they asked the fans to provide around £1.8 million for a 10% share of the club, which, unsurprisingly, doesn’t make any arithmetical sense either.

None of these transactions were queried at the time nor have they been since by our dynamic, investigative Scottish media i.e. a journalist with a calculator and opposable thumbs. These figures and statements alone would surely warrant investigation because the shareholders and creditors of both UKIO BANKAS and UBIG might just feel it is reasonable to know exactly how many shares were purchased on their behalf and what percentage they constitute in terms of the overall value of Hearts. It does, after all, reflect on their value. If the club, its shares and assets are now worth £2.5 million, I reckon those fans who provided the £1.8 million should actually own over 70% of Hearts, which I believe is around the amount of shares that are now being purchased for £50K to the apparent delight of the Hearts fans who paid £1.8 million for them last year...or am I just confusing things?
How well all of this reflects on Scottish journalism is fairly obvious...pathetically.

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:top marks

So it all makes sense now. If you can borrow money from yourself, you can then use that money to buy your football club, from yourself. Presumably you then repay the loan from the money you received from yourself in payment for the club you sold to yourself. Then everybody is happy, especially yourself.

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Originally Posted by Caversham Green

The real question was why this was done. The club was already worthless and this action reduced UBIG's potentially recoverable debtor into an unrecoverable (i.e. worthless) investment. Since UBIG was an investment-based concern it seems likely that the motive was to falsely inflate their balance sheet by massively overvaluing the HoMFC shareholding.

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These transactions, along with the debt forgiveness and inter co invoices, are going to be the ones that will interest and be scrutinised by the Lith Fraud Squad. I would guess that these investigations will have to be completed before any assets are let go. Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

They were signed off, with clean audit reports

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They were signed off, but apart from the 2012 ones they weren't 'clean'. They all carried a qualification to the effect that the auditors could not establish whether UBIG were capable of providing the support they claimed to be offering, therefore they (the auditors) were unsure whether the accounts gave a true and fair view.

The unqualified report given for the 2012 accounts, signed and published only a few months before HoMFC entered administration looks to me like a massive misjudgement at the very best.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser1962

These transactions, along with the debt forgiveness and inter co invoices, are going to be the ones that will interest and be scrutinised by the Lith Fraud Squad. I would guess that these investigations will have to be completed before any assets are let go. Thoughts?

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Indeed. In total these transactions 'cost' UBIG something in the region of £67m - since UBIG will not be paying their creditors a sum in excess of that amount HoMFC are ultimately responsible for those creditors' losses. In effect they stole that money from them - that's cheating, taking players on loan and paying off your debts as they fall due is standard business practice.

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Originally Posted by Caversham Green

They were signed off, but apart from the 2012 ones they weren't 'clean'. They all carried a qualification to the effect that the auditors could not establish whether UBIG were capable of providing the support they claimed to be offering, therefore they (the auditors) were unsure whether the accounts gave a true and fair view.

The unqualified report given for the 2012 accounts, signed and published only a few months before HoMFC entered administration looks to me like a massive misjudgement at the very best.

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Sorry. It was the 2012 accounts I was talking about.

Damn these Monday mornings....

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Sorry. It was the 2012 accounts I was talking about

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Ah, right. I think Stonewall was talking about accounts for a number of years though.

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Originally Posted by Caversham Green

There's a confusion between nominal value, issue price and share premiums here. The 2008 share issue consisted of £34,285,714 shares with a nominal value of 10p - that increased the share capital by £3.4m (rounded off). They were issued at a price of 35p - a premium of 25p - which increased the share premium by £8.5m. The issue reduced debt £12m - 34m x 35p. The other conversion followed a similar pattern.

The real question was why this was done. The club was already worthless and this action reduced UBIG's potentially recoverable debtor into an unrecoverable (i.e. worthless) investment. Since UBIG was an investment-based concern it seems likely that the motive was to falsely inflate their balance sheet by massively overvaluing the HoMFC shareholding.

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I seem to recall talk at some time of increasing the book value of UKIO/UBIG assets as the LT authorities required exposure to be within a certain percentage - they didn't have enough assets on the books for the debt they carried or some such thing. This was also the times Vlad was allegedly pumping his own money into various organisations, which the yams took to illustrate just how minted he was.

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Originally Posted by Caversham Green

There's a confusion between nominal value, issue price and share premiums here. The 2008 share issue consisted of £34,285,714 shares with a nominal value of 10p - that increased the share capital by £3.4m (rounded off). They were issued at a price of 35p - a premium of 25p - which increased the share premium by £8.5m. The issue reduced debt £12m - 34m x 35p. The other conversion followed a similar pattern.

The real question was why this was done. The club was already worthless and this action reduced UBIG's potentially recoverable debtor into an unrecoverable (i.e. worthless) investment. Since UBIG was an investment-based concern it seems likely that the motive was to falsely inflate their balance sheet by massively overvaluing the HoMFC shareholding.

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That's exactly what they were up to. Vlad valued the Yams at £ 50 million, not because he had any hope of getting a fraction of that amount, but to put on his balance sheet to justify the vast sums of Ukio Bankas cash " apparently " spent on them.

That's why he went bananas when FoH. went public with their £ 200 K offer for the whole shooting match. :greengrin

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Originally Posted by brog

OK, a couple of fairly random but associated thoughts on recent posts.
1. Washing the Lithuanian money. IIRC was there not a period where most of Yams marquee signings were officially Kaunas players? I know someone has commented on wages being transferred from Lithuania but I'm sure it would have been possible for loan fees also to have been charged. Mind you, how this would have escaped the eagle eyes of Johnson Carmichael is a mystery! I think GG's probably on the money however re large sums being moved through offshore entities.
2. Building on the above it's yet another wonderful example of Yam ignorance. There are many posters both on Brokeback & EEN who somehow claim we are cheating by playing loan players. This not only ignores the Kaunas situation but forgets recent beauties such as Danny ( nae suspension ) Wilson, Ngoo, who helped them to the LC final & currently McCallum, who TBF, they're desperately trying to forget!
Thank heavens for Yams, it really helps us avoid thinking about our own situation!

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Point 1 I would suggest the fees have been "charged" against profits and added to the Loan accounts of UBIG, UKIO or whomever and no "cash" will have changed hands.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

They were signed off, with clean audit reports

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There was a qualification n 2012 around support rom Lithuania.

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Originally Posted by Caversham Green

There's a confusion between nominal value, issue price and share premiums here. The 2008 share issue consisted of £34,285,714 shares with a nominal value of 10p - that increased the share capital by £3.4m (rounded off). They were issued at a price of 35p - a premium of 25p - which increased the share premium by £8.5m. The issue reduced debt £12m - 34m x 35p. The other conversion followed a similar pattern.

The real question was why this was done. The club was already worthless and this action reduced UBIG's potentially recoverable debtor into an unrecoverable (i.e. worthless) investment. Since UBIG was an investment-based concern it seems likely that the motive was to falsely inflate their balance sheet by massively overvaluing the HoMFC shareholding.

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Spot on.

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Originally Posted by The Falcon

Was there not a wee qualification that JC had limited information regarding UBIG and that the Yams were entirely dependant on UBIG's continued support? I think this appeared for a few years.

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2012

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Originally Posted by Kaiser1962

These transactions, along with the debt forgiveness and inter co invoices, are going to be the ones that will interest and be scrutinised by the Lith Fraud Squad. I would guess that these investigations will have to be completed before any assets are let go. Thoughts?

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I would think this is a racing certainty.

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Originally Posted by Caversham Green

They were signed off, but apart from the 2012 ones they weren't 'clean'. They all carried a qualification to the effect that the auditors could not establish whether UBIG were capable of providing the support they claimed to be offering, therefore they (the auditors) were unsure whether the accounts gave a true and fair view.

The unqualified report given for the 2012 accounts, signed and published only a few months before HoMFC entered administration looks to me like a massive misjudgement at the very best.

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That should have been the clue and, in my opinion, a massive misjudgement by the auditors.

Have a look at the BDO creditors list a see what the Aduitors were due !

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Originally Posted by Weststandwanab

There was a qualification n 2012 around support rom Lithuania.

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You're having the same Monday morning as me :greengrin

Cav's right. The 2012 accounts were unqualified. The earlier ones had the note about continuing support from Lithuania.

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Originally Posted by Jack

I seem to recall talk at some time of increasing the book value of UKIO/UBIG assets as the LT authorities required exposure to be within a certain percentage - they didn't have enough assets on the books for the debt they carried or some such thing. This was also the times Vlad was allegedly pumping his own money into various organisations, which the yams took to illustrate just how minted he was.

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The share issue took the number of shares in issue to just under 47m - at the issue price of 35p that confers a fictional value of about £16.5m on the club before 'goodwill'. Add the £34m debt that was left and you get to Mr Romanov's valuation and that was probably the asset that UBIG were showing in their accounts. One look at HoMFC (IA)'s accounts would show that they were in fact worth furcall.

Yeah, Johnston Carmichael due £ 100, they made sure they got their £140,000 or whatever fee before signing.

Their solicitors, HBJ Gately Waring , got stung for £ 44,313.00 which was pleasing, as I'm sure they would have been behind many of the legal " tricks " employed by the Yams over the Vlad years.

Just back from a weekend away lots of catching up tp do

any meeting confirmation yet ??

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Originally Posted by Greenworld

Just back from a weekend away lots of catching up tp do

any meeting confirmation yet ??

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Your missing the point .They aren't going to announce it as they want to try and surprise us before the Derby to give them some good news and try and flog their allocation in case we start buying up the tickets .

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Originally Posted by Ronniekirk

Your missing the point .They aren't going to announce it as they want to try and surprise us before the Derby to give them some good news and try and flog their allocation in case we start buying up the tickets .

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Excellent love surprises:greengrin