Kenny Gibson talking well there is not something I thought I would ever say.
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Kenny Gibson talking well there is not something I thought I would ever say.
You think emergency evidence sessions with the UN the night before the vote and debates going on until midnight is the sign of a Bill going through normal parliamentary process?Quote:
Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens
Clearly quite a few MSPs from all parties have concerns about allowing 16 and 17 year olds to get a GRC and potentially starting transition. Under the UN anyone under 18 is a child so I understand the concerns.
As already discussed on here the controversy around the consultation process was how heavily weighted it was in favour of government-funded lobby groups who are passionately in favour of these reforms, while IIRC feminist groups who oppose the legislation were denied a voice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
That might be the case at Holyrood where the Tories (who have nevertheless allowed a free vote I think?) will be keen to upset the applecart, but I think it would be unfair to suggest that the majority of opposition to this legislation is anything but heartfelt. I remain baffled by Sturgeon's intransigence on an issue which will impact so significantly on women's rights, while any parent should be apprehensive about its potential impact on children as young as 16. Sturgeon's personal life is obviously hers alone but I do sometimes wonder if she might be a little less inflexible on this had she had children of her own.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens
No amount of suggested amendments will derail this bill because a majority of Labour MSPs will help it pass. However, I think the real battle lines will be drawn only after it passes into law. Now is the time for sensible compromise on a piece of legislation which in parts is simply wrong. The compromises suggested in the Observer editorial posted a couple of days ago are very much in line with what I feel is required.
I think this is an issue that doesn't really split down constitutional lines. Tories opposed, Lab and SNP ostensibly for , but fissures in the parties about the issue. Greens totally for and, I think, the Lib Dems are. That's not to say that parties don't see political opportunities. But is that so surprising? Fundamentally, the legislation is a mess, starting with the definitional issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens
It's time for SNP MSP's to take a principled stand and vote against this bill. Sturgeon and Murrell need a rocket right up them, they're so utterly entrenched that they think they are untouchable. It will be a huge mistake to pass this bill and will count against them in the future.
Personally I think it will pass and then be forgotten about. There will be the odd story hear and there regarding some prisoner changing gender etc much the same as in Ireland but that will be it.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
Unless you think Scottish people are significantly different from Irish then there is no reason to suspect there will be a different outcome from their experience. In 7 years it’s barely caused a ripple in Irish society. It will be the same here.
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Scotsmen do tend to wear skirts more than their Irish counterparts, maybe that explains their concern. :dunno:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
But your definition of a problem is something quantifiable like rape. Imo opinion that's shocking. Females who don't want male bodied care won't be in any statistic, but don't matter to you. Women who don't want a ***** next to them when changing at the gym don't matter to you, also will be no statistics for this ect ect. Women's opinions and fears don't matter anymoreQuote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Surely Irish women would be kicking up about this if it was happening? Is it happening in Ireland?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens
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Originally Posted by James310
sorry if I’ve missed this, what’s the situation with Kate Forbes? Why would she be sacked/resign?
Who is going to run an unquantifiable article. What I do know is here in Scotland a woman with no feeling bellow her neck, says her life will be in terror knowing a biological male will now be able to touch her. You basically said her fears and opinions are null. Women's opinions are being quietened. Men who it won't affect telling them their opinions and fears don't matter is poorQuote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Snp are whipping it rather than giving mps a free voteQuote:
Originally Posted by McD
Because if she votes on this according to her principles she will have to resign. Principles tend to get parked though when ministerial salaries are on the line. :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by McD
Sex offenders rights looked after. Gallery has to be cleared as women shout shame on yous
Russell Findlays amendment to deny sex offenders a GRC is defeated 59 votes to 64
I'm not sure the Irish situation is directly comparable and it's certainly not true that the reforms there have caused barely a ripple. As Ash Regan pointed out last week the legislation there (and I think in Norway) was kind of piggy-backed through on the back of more popular measures (eg marriage law reform) with little in the way of public debate. She also alluded to recent polling in Ireland which shows less than 20% public support for the measures implemented. I note also that the Catholic Church have today opposed the Scottish government legislation, citing dissatisfaction with the impact it has had on women's rights in Ireland.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
And this is most certainly about women's rights as much as women's safety. Even today I think it's true to say that women as a sex are discriminated against in society and this legislation will make 'women' into a kind of mixed-sex category - something that will put barriers in place when it comes to furthering the cause of women's rights. It will also make it harder for women to access female-only services and spaces, including hospital wards and intimate care as providers will be unable to grant such requests. That has got to be wrong surely - especially as trans people already have the right to access gender-neutral spaces and specialist services. It's removing women's rights to privacy and dignity - not to mention removal of safeguarding - and it can't surely have come as a surprise to Sturgeon to see that public opposition to such measures is over 60%. Shrugging this off by simply saying it seems to have been OK in Ireland doesn't really cut it when it comes to addressing such valid concerns for women (concerns that men don't have to deal with).
As a male this has no direct impact on me. However although I respect trans rights, I also respect woman’s rights and it strikes me that you cannot meet both without one or other being impacted.
I canvassed the opinion of my wife and daughter who had no reason to object which surprised me.
I do still feel the current approach is wrong and some of the areas of concern could be tightened up to try and strike a balance.
‘Shame on you’: Protesters rage as MSPs vote down gender reform amendment (msn.com)Quote:
Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7
The Catholic Church... women's rights... 😂😂😂Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
She’s a minister in scotgov so would be expected to resign if she voted against a govt policy. She’s also a wee free.Quote:
Originally Posted by McD
Women threatened with arrest if they don't leave the public gallery.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
Although begs the question why would you allow convicted sex offenders the ability to change gender? Because they are genuinely nice people underneath it all and are just confused?
Yes, we should cut their bloody baws off……wait….hang on..Quote:
Originally Posted by James310
[emoji23]
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You love an emoji when it's actually a serious matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
No, but should we allow them to change gender so easily as filling in a form and self declaring they are now a woman? I assume you think yes, why?
A not insignificant body of opinion in Ireland, but irrespective of anyone's opinion of them that's not my point. It just underlines that the Irish example isn't really some glowing example of legislation warmly embraced. It's what folk actually think of what's being introduced that matters, not simply letting it roll over them because it has 'worked' elsewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by neil7908
I think they are pretty much ignored in Ireland these days as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
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So the Parliament has voted to protect the rights of sex offenders over women. Is that funny?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Don’t think there are any votes until tomorrow?Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
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I'm similar. Living in a country where you regularly have mixed toilets, showers and saunas as well as Doctors and Nurses of both sex and probably all variants along the gender/sex spectrum, it's difficult for me to understand what all the fuss is about. I think the likelihood of some perve getting a sex change or identifying as a woman just to oggle at naked women is very unlikely and what's to stop them just doing it anyway?Quote:
Originally Posted by Skol
It just all feels so Victorian.
Eh? They are voting on amendments about every 10 minutes now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
I can ask again, why do you think the rights of sex offenders should be prioritised over the rights of women? Is it funny?