Climate change and the impending apocalypse

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Originally Posted by Sylar

There's a pretty cool project taking place around Scotland where researchers are deploying oysters into coastal waters as a form of absorbing carbon too. I know that's linked to a seagrass project at the same time, so sorry if it's yours and I'm teaching granny to suck eggs! :greengrin

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:agree: The sea grass and the oysters are part of the same project S. Oysters were historically the poor man’s protein so when North Edinburgh industrialised and the population exploded you would see hundreds of folk out collecting the oysters, the Forth was one of the richest beds in the world, you could walk half way across on their backs! That wouldn’t last long of course and pollution didn’t help. The project involves sowing the sea grass from seeds collected in Orkney. All very cool.

Mon the oysters and sea grass.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-64640215

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All major road building projects in Wales have been scrapped over environmental concerns.

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Why is this not being covered by MM ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGN81SEmoPU

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Originally Posted by Betty Boop

Why is this not being covered by MM ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGN81SEmoPU

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They have discovered contaminated water in a town 40 miles away from this. It is scary how powerful corporates are in America, they lobby government to get rid of safety laws and employment rights of workers to the extent that US workers are the worst treated in the first world. The train carrying these chemicals has brakes from the 1860s, yep the 1860s, Civil War brakes on a train carrying highly toxic chemicals. We just need to wait for the disaster that will include radioactive waste and there will be parts of America people won't be able to go. Trains are mainly used for goods transportation in the US and that system almost exclusively goes through poor areas so there will be nothing done until if effects rich Americans. The train company involved in this disaster is Norfolk Southern, they made $3billion in profit last year whilst degrading workers rights further, sacking a load of employees (there was just three people on the train that derailed, a train with 141 cars 50 of which derailed). They offer the town East Palestine $25k in compensation, thats $5 per resident. The ecological damage from this disaster is unknown but very significant, it will take decades to clean up.

This has had so little coverage on mainstream media in the US some people don't even know it has happened, the Biden administration are still keeping schtum about it too smfh.

For anyone who enjoyed Paul Whitehouse in Gone Fishing, there’s a couple of programmes starting on Sunday on bbc2 where he investigates how bad the pollution in Englands rivers is, and by all accounts it’s a shocking watch.

https://www.bbc.com/mediacentre/prog...roubled-rivers

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Originally Posted by hibsbollah

For anyone who enjoyed Paul Whitehouse in Gone Fishing, there’s a couple of programmes starting on Sunday on bbc2 where he investigates how bad the pollution in Englands rivers is, and by all accounts it’s a shocking watch.

https://www.bbc.com/mediacentre/prog...roubled-rivers

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It’s brilliant that someone has done this.

Good on him.

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Originally Posted by hibsbollah

You’ll like this project then, which I’m involved with in a minor way. Links in nicely to the recent Freeports announcement and is good news for Granton in a wider sense. You too will be in rock pooling before you
know it :greengrin

https://www.theecologycentre.org/seagrass

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I met Lyle last week from the Ecology Centre. Very nice guy and extremely passionate about the Seagrass project. The benefits are quite incredible, from providing habitat for fish to hide and increasing bird populations who would rather enjoy said fish, to carbon sequestration and even stabilising banks from erosion and crashing waves. If anyone's keen to get involved the link in the quote above as well as https://www.wwf.org.uk/scotland/restoration-forth will have info soon on volunteer days etc.

Anyway today is international sea-grass day - so happy sea-grass day everyone :greengrin

I think I posted this link before but may be of interest to some if they haven't seen it. Seems to be borne from the same thought process as the seagrass project(s) mentioned above:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-63200589

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Originally Posted by green&left

I met Lyle last week from the Ecology Centre. Very nice guy and extremely passionate about the Seagrass project. The benefits are quite incredible, from providing habitat for fish to hide and increasing bird populations who would rather enjoy said fish, to carbon sequestration and even stabilising banks from erosion and crashing waves. If anyone's keen to get involved the link in the quote above as well as https://www.wwf.org.uk/scotland/restoration-forth will have info soon on volunteer days etc.

Anyway today is international sea-grass day - so happy sea-grass day everyone :greengrin

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It’s bonkers, an underwater mini rainforest sustaining life as well solving some of the biodiversity and climate damage concerns simultaneously. I can’t get my head around the actual horticultural introduction progress (I’m assuming they grow the seedlings into fair sized juvenile plants before planting into some sort of contained structure in the sea bed to stop them washing away in the tides?) the presentation I attended told us the seeds were being harvested from a population in Orkney.

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Originally Posted by hibsbollah

It’s bonkers, an underwater mini rainforest sustaining life as well solving some of the biodiversity and climate damage concerns simultaneously. I can’t get my head around the actual horticultural introduction progress (I’m assuming they grow the seedlings into fair sized juvenile plants before planting into some sort of contained structure in the sea bed to stop them washing away in the tides?) the presentation I attended told us the seeds were being harvested from a population in Orkney.

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Yep, seeds harvested and stored in Orkney before distribution - although turns out the existing plants on the firth of forth actually have DNA closer to seagrass found on the Dutch shoreline than the plants in Orkney, and the Dutch can harvest "millions" of seeds compared to the thousands in Orkney.

Regarding the planting its so low tech I thought it was a joke. Basically take a caulking gun and a cleaned out tube of silicon or decorators caulk and cut the top off. Insert the seed with some sandy muddy sediment and press it into the sand. Current success rates are 35-40% of seeds turning into flowers which is meant to be a very very good result. Beauty of it being so simple is the planting can be delegated to community groups. I think there are 3 current experimental sites where they are looking to expand on the existing seagrass meadows. One at Limekilns, one around Burntisland and Kinghorn and another across the water along the Dalmeny Estate shoreline.

Think the bigger issue is protecting existing and new meadows from human activity. 99.99999% of the population won't have a clue about seagrass and when the tide is out will just assume its some seaweed. Bait diggers, dog walkers, families etc won't think anything of walking along it and/or digging it up.

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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

I think I posted this link before but may be of interest to some if they haven't seen it. Seems to be borne from the same thought process as the seagrass project(s) mentioned above:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-63200589

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Interesting, hadn't seen that before.

Although hopefully these schemes and advances are used to restore some of the damage we have done - as opposed to just allow governments and corporations to carry on with business as usual.

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Originally Posted by green&left

Yep, seeds harvested and stored in Orkney before distribution - although turns out the existing plants on the firth of forth actually have DNA closer to seagrass found on the Dutch shoreline than the plants in Orkney, and the Dutch can harvest "millions" of seeds compared to the thousands in Orkney.

Regarding the planting its so low tech I thought it was a joke. Basically take a caulking gun and a cleaned out tube of silicon or decorators caulk and cut the top off. Insert the seed with some sandy muddy sediment and press it into the sand. Current success rates are 35-40% of seeds turning into flowers which is meant to be a very very good result. Beauty of it being so simple is the planting can be delegated to community groups. I think there are 3 current experimental sites where they are looking to expand on the existing seagrass meadows. One at Limekilns, one around Burntisland and Kinghorn and another across the water along the Dalmeny Estate shoreline.

Think the bigger issue is protecting existing and new meadows from human activity. 99.99999% of the population won't have a clue about seagrass and when the tide is out will just assume its some seaweed. Bait diggers, dog walkers, families etc won't think anything of walking along it and/or digging it up.

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On the face of it this looks really exciting. Is there a danger it's being oversold?

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Originally Posted by green&left

Yep, seeds harvested and stored in Orkney before distribution - although turns out the existing plants on the firth of forth actually have DNA closer to seagrass found on the Dutch shoreline than the plants in Orkney, and the Dutch can harvest "millions" of seeds compared to the thousands in Orkney.

Regarding the planting its so low tech I thought it was a joke. Basically take a caulking gun and a cleaned out tube of silicon or decorators caulk and cut the top off. Insert the seed with some sandy muddy sediment and press it into the sand. Current success rates are 35-40% of seeds turning into flowers which is meant to be a very very good result. Beauty of it being so simple is the planting can be delegated to community groups. I think there are 3 current experimental sites where they are looking to expand on the existing seagrass meadows. One at Limekilns, one around Burntisland and Kinghorn and another across the water along the Dalmeny Estate shoreline.

Think the bigger issue is protecting existing and new meadows from human activity. 99.99999% of the population won't have a clue about seagrass and when the tide is out will just assume its some seaweed. Bait diggers, dog walkers, families etc won't think anything of walking along it and/or digging it up.

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Thanks, I wasn’t sure about that element so you’ve saved me asking the question that I’m supposed to know the answer to in my day to day existence anyway :greengrin

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Originally Posted by archie

On the face of it this looks really exciting. Is there a danger it's being oversold?

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I don't think so, no.

There's been several case studies from different countries looking at the different impacts it has. Australia has looked at the benefit of fish stocks for them, India and British Virgin Islands have separately looked at the benefits of carbon sequestration, UK has looked at the benefit of it protecting banks from erosion and taking force out of wave energy and the EU has looked at pretty much everything.

The thing to be mindful off is seagrass and oysters aren't some crazy invention or exotic imports. They were native to these parts before human activity destroyed their habitats and these projects are just trying to return these areas to how they were pre-industrialisation.

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Originally Posted by green&left

I don't think so, no.

There's been several case studies from different countries looking at the different impacts it has. Australia has looked at the benefit of fish stocks for them, India and British Virgin Islands have separately looked at the benefits of carbon sequestration, UK has looked at the benefit of it protecting banks from erosion and taking force out of wave energy and the EU has looked at pretty much everything.

The thing to be mindful off is seagrass and oysters aren't some crazy invention or exotic imports. They were native to these parts before human activity destroyed their habitats and these projects are just trying to return these areas to how they were pre-industrialisation.

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Thanks - that's really interesting.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-64815875

A cheery thought for a Thursday morning.

He's probably not wrong though.

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Originally Posted by hibsbollah

For anyone who enjoyed Paul Whitehouse in Gone Fishing, there’s a couple of programmes starting on Sunday on bbc2 where he investigates how bad the pollution in Englands rivers is, and by all accounts it’s a shocking watch.

https://www.bbc.com/mediacentre/prog...roubled-rivers

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Great spot HB and thanks for pointing it out, I will definitely be watching this. As an avid angler of all sorts - coarse, sea and game - I'm always interested in things fishing and water quality content. Feargal Sharkey has been ringing the alarm bells on what water companies are doing to English rivers and water sources for quite some time now and hopefully it is beginning to get traction. Sadly I'm not sure the picture is much different here in Scotland.

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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-64815875

A cheery thought for a Thursday morning.

He's probably not wrong though.

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It’s clumsy wording though. What is he (or rather the reporter) saying is ‘lost’? The battle for survival? And the survival of what, the planet itself or the human race as a species? The word used in the piece ‘mitigation’ is appropriate here; perhaps we have lost the battle to avoid permanent long lasting environmental damage, but that there are still plenty of opportunities to mitigate the impacts and learn different ways to coexist with the planet within those new realities?

I’d rather listen to scientists on the reality than to a politician who isn’t even a major figure the Green movement anymore. The ‘throw up your hands and accept it’ crowd really yank my chain. Maybe they have no intention of producing grandchildren who might inherit what is left, or something.

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Originally Posted by hibsbollah

It’s clumsy wording though. What is he (or rather the reporter) saying is ‘lost’? The battle for survival? And the survival of what, the planet itself or the human race as a species? The word used in the piece ‘mitigation’ is appropriate here; perhaps we have lost the battle to avoid permanent long lasting environmental damage, but that there are still plenty of opportunities to mitigate the impacts and learn different ways to coexist with the planet within those new realities?

I’d rather listen to scientists on the reality than to a politician who isn’t even a major figure the Green movement anymore. The ‘throw up your hands and accept it’ crowd really yank my chain. Maybe they have no intention of producing grandchildren who might inherit what is left, or something.

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I think climate catastrophising is really harmful to changing behaviours. If you say we're done then what point is there in doing anything. I was very struck by the discussion above on solutions. Much easier to engage with.

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Originally Posted by One Day Soon

Great spot HB and thanks for pointing it out, I will definitely be watching this. As an avid angler of all sorts - coarse, sea and game - I'm always interested in things fishing and water quality content. Feargal Sharkey has been ringing the alarm bells on what water companies are doing to English rivers and water sources for quite some time now and hopefully it is beginning to get traction. Sadly I'm not sure the picture is much different here in Scotland.

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I always thought Scotland performed pretty well compared to the rest of the UK, then I read that we under monitor/report compared to elsewhere by a significant margin.

We might be OK, we might be much worse!

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Originally Posted by Just Alf

I always thought Scotland performed pretty well compared to the rest of the UK, then I read that we under monitor/report compared to elsewhere by a significant margin.

We might be OK, we might be much worse!

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We barely report or monitor sadly, but it is improving

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

We barely report or monitor sadly, but it is improving

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I see that human waste is resulting in wild growing tomato plants in riverside locations in Scotland because our water company is either actively discharge waste into water ways or because we are not managing the system well enough to prevent it happening accidentally. There's a health risk and sewage scandal waiting to happen there.

Wallace a bit of a random target and I'm not sure it will win the public as much as spray painting Tufton Street but oh well

https://news.stv.tv/east-central/cli...x=1677764427-1

Climate activists shatter glass case holding William Wallace's sword
The pair used rocks to bash in the enclosure at the Wallace Monument before spray painting it.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Wallace a bit of a random target and I'm not sure it will win the public as much as spray painting Tufton Street but oh well

https://news.stv.tv/east-central/cli...x=1677764427-1

Climate activists shatter glass case holding William Wallace's sword
The pair used rocks to bash in the enclosure at the Wallace Monument before spray painting it.

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I just like the bit where ‘Douglas Ross could be heard swearing’. I had a wee chuckle at that.

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Originally Posted by archie

I think climate catastrophising is really harmful to changing behaviours. If you say we're done then what point is there in doing anything. I was very struck by the discussion above on solutions. Much easier to engage with.

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I think you’re not alone, and I assume there is a heavily weighted ‘men of a certain age’ profile on this thread, and that demographic tends to be into their DIY type solutions, so the thing about loading up a caulking gun with sea grass seeds and pumping away at the Forth seabed to our hearts content to save the world has a certain appeal…

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Originally Posted by archie

I think climate catastrophising is really harmful to changing behaviours. If you say we're done then what point is there in doing anything. I was very struck by the discussion above on solutions. Much easier to engage with.

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I think the language he used wasn't ideal but the science shows we have lost the battle to keep warming to 1.5c, which was agreed as the target. Your right though that temperatures above this won't cause an apocalypse, but they will have devastating consequences.

And collectively we are still doing very little. I think for a lot of people who have been warning about this stuff for decades, and have been laughed at, ridiculed for all that time, they are now finally getting some traction with their argument and are probably just fed up of sugar costing things.

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Originally Posted by hibsbollah

I think you’re not alone, and I assume there is a heavily weighted ‘men of a certain age’ profile on this thread, and that demographic tends to be into their DIY type solutions, so the thing about loading up a caulking gun with sea grass seeds and pumping away at the Forth seabed to our hearts content to save the world has a certain appeal…

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We disagree substantially on some things but you are an intelligent guy. There's no way you wrote this accidentally.

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Originally Posted by One Day Soon

We disagree substantially on some things but you are an intelligent guy. There's no way you wrote this accidentally.

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:faf: guilty as charged m’lud.

I'm probably a man of a certain age. Too old to worry about pumping these days. The sea grass and other innovations are fantastic but my fear is they will be used to show we can continue to destroy and invent our way out of it. My view is the world needs to slow down dramatically and innovate to reduce climate change. That will never happen when all politicians seem to want is growth and when very little is discussed beyond a single political cycle. Money and lobbying drives political decision making and that influence has now started to dictate what the electorate vote for too. Climate change will continue to be kicked into the long sea grass and the direction of travel will continue until the point that green technology can generate more wealth for those that pull the levers. At that point it will probably be too late. Unfortunately, all the traits and qualities that most people would consider make good humans don't get you into positions that take decisions. All the traits that we hate are abundant in those that decide our fate and none of them look beyond what effect climate change will have on them and what profit is to be made in the meantime.