Another grooming gang uncovered.

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Originally Posted by Cataplana

The attention is on the cover up. That is the real problem. If there is a racial link to the abuse bring covered up then it has to be questioned.

Was there a fear of investigating and prosecuting certain gangs because of their race? It's something that has been repeated over and again on this thread.

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It has been repeated with no evidence to back it up. Yes, historically there have been cases dropped for reasons some claim were cover ups, lack of resources, powers that be, but any cases cited are something like 15 years ago, there is no evidence that cover ups are taking place now because of the ethnic origin of perpetrators. And to make claims that are blatantly racist that "Pakistani Men" are more involved than any other group is diverting attention away from the victims.

There, I've said it.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

It has been repeated with no evidence to back it up. Yes, historically there have been cases dropped for reasons some claim were cover ups, lack of resources, powers that be, but any cases cited are something like 15 years ago, there is no evidence that cover ups are taking place now because of the ethnic origin of perpetrators. And to make claims that are blatantly racist that "Pakistani Men" are more involved than any other group is diverting attention away from the victims.

There, I've said it.

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No need for emotive stuff like "there I've said it," we are all adults here after all.

We still don't know why the situations in Rochdale and other towns was allowed to continue unchecked.

Your concern for the victims should extend to finding out why it happened, identifying those responsible, and ensuring that it can't happen again.

You seem to think that because it's all historic that there is nothing to worry about anymore.

If it is being covered up now, how woukd we know?

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Originally Posted by Cataplana

No need for emotive stuff like "there I've said it," we are all adults here after all.

We still don't know why the situations in Rochdale and other towns was allowed to continue unchecked.

Your concern for the victims should extend to finding out why it happened, identifying those responsible, and ensuring that it can't happen again.

You seem to think that because it's all historic that there is nothing to worry about anymore.

If it is being covered up now, how woukd we know?

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Maybe we should read this?

https://www.gmpcc.org.uk/wp-content/...ngle-pages.pdf

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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

Maybe we should read this?

https://www.gmpcc.org.uk/wp-content/...ngle-pages.pdf

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Yes, that would be a very good source. If it questioned the ethnicity of the offenders, as an objective, independent review it could have done everyone a service by confirming, or destroying the suspicions of those who think it is an issue.

If people had accepted the findings of the original enquiries into Bloody Sunday, or Hillsborough we wouldn't be where we are today.

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Originally Posted by Cataplana

Yes, that would be a very good source. If it questioned the ethnicity of the offenders, as an objective, independent review it could have done everyone a service by confirming, or destroying the suspicions of those who think it is an issue.

If people had accepted the findings of the original enquiries into Bloody Sunday, or Hillsborough we wouldn't be where we are today.

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A very good point. (I haven't read the report myself, btw, was just looking to see if there was anything out there.)

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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

A very good point. (I haven't read the report myself, btw, was just looking to see if there was anything out there.)

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Problem is conspiracy theorists will always question the motivation, and impartiality of people who don't confirm their version of the truth. Really though, that report has a big part to play in creating suspicions that ethnicity is not allowed to be questioned, and that there is an inner circle of people in child protection and the police who are protecting themselves and others from scrutiny on the matter.

When people who you never considered to be racist, start asking questions that you consider racist, you have to look at your own ability to have an open mind. Particularly when that involves admitting to yourself that you might be guilty of some of the things they are concerned about.

I am not expecting a great holding up of hands any time soon. What is more worrying, is that those that may have "got away with it" will see that report as confirmation that they didn't really do anything wrong.

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/upd...d-say-critics/

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Former Detective Constable Margaret Oliver told ITV News that Ann Coffey is aware of the ethnicity of the offenders and the profile of victims. She says the MP has employed 'wilful blindness' by intentionally watering down the report to look at child abuse in general, rather than looking at child sexual exploitation.

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This is not about any specific ethnicity being superior or inferior to others in its proclivity for this type of activity. It is about whether failure to investigate a common ethnicity has been right or wrong. The last sentence seems to mirror what has been going on here - namely distracting from a question about specific actions by widening the debate to take in paedophilia (these guys were not paedophiles), and then using that as a context to minimise the actions of the gangs in question.

Yes there may well have been 50,000 sexual offences against children. We are concerned about the ones that involved collusion between grooming gangs, social services and the police.

What we are focussing on in this topic, is the sub set that involves grooming gangs who have evaded justice and whom appear to have been aided by those responsible for protecting children.

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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

Maybe we should read this?

https://www.gmpcc.org.uk/wp-content/...ngle-pages.pdf

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Some useful information there.

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Figures obtained from Greater Manchester Police, as part
of this inquiry, reveal that many children are still being
preyed on each day and there are currently 260 ‘live’
investigations into child sexual exploitation. Of these,
174 are recorded crimes and 18 of those cases involve
multiple perpetrators.
The majority of cases of children and young people who
have been sexually abused involve single offenders, and
there are big variations across police divisions.

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Police, social workers, prosecutors and juries, made up of
ordinary people, all carry attitudes around with them. This
could go some way to explain why in the past six years
in Greater Manchester there have only been about 1,000
convictions out of 13,000 reported cases of nine major
sexual offences against under-16-year-olds.

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High-profile court cases, such as Rochdale, have elevated
CSE into the public consciousness, but at the same time
Thave left the impression that CSE is only about vulnerable
white girls being exploited by groups of Asian men.
This isn’t the case, as GMP figures show that 10.34 per
cent of recorded crimes currently being investigated
involve multiple offenders, with the remaining being
single perpetrators. The Rochdale Sunrise CSE team
also told me that about 15 per cent of their cases involve
groups, with the other 85 per cent being single offenders
including peer on peer (where young people sexually
exploit other young people).

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In Rochdale, the nine men convicted of grooming
girls with alcohol, drugs and gifts and then passing
them round multiple men for sex were predominantly
British/Pakistani.

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A small minority of British Pakistani men are
criminal sex offenders as in other communities. So
it is important to understand why those particular
men became criminal sex offenders. The assertion
that it was a racial crime in that the girls were targeted
because they were white is undermined by the fact
that one of the men in the Rochdale case was also
convicted of a serious sexual offence on a British/
Pakistani girl. We do not know whether these men
also abused other British/Pakistani girls.

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I hope that this puts the racial elements into context.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Some useful information there.


I hope that this puts the racial elements into context.

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The problem is that it is this report that has brought the suggestions of a cover up. It has been discredited by many of the people who worked on the case.

In short the facts presented are disputed and even discredited. However it appear that questioning this report draws accusations of racism, and ignoring the victims in the case.

To me there are two tiers of victims. Firstly the girls who were abused and let down by the justice system, for whatever reason - we have yet to find out.

Secondly, justice and freedom are also victims when the people accused of the crime are also those we trust to investigate wrong doing.

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Originally Posted by Andy Bee

Sadly they were first brought to light in 2004 in Manchester but Police shelved the case because apparently they lacked the resources, there's some serious answers needed from all the services of the time including social services. Predominantly men of Pakistani descent again, yes Asian but predominantly Pakistani not Chinese, not Indian, not Burmese, not Korean this is a cultural thing in which some Pakistani males feel they have the right to systematically abuse young white female kids and it needs to stop, that's Telford, Rochdale, Oxford, Huddersfield, Rotherham and god knows where else. I listened to the grandmother of one of their victims and it was heartbreaking, she spoke of putting her grandaughter in a warm bath frequently to try and soothe her bruising, she reported the abuse to the police numerous times to no avail, unfortunately the 15yr old after years of sexual abuse was injected with a lethal dose of heroin by one of her abusers. 97 people reported and not one has been convicted although I stand to be corrected.

Has political correctness went that far that people and more to the point Police and Social Services are actually that scared to confront something like this that they'd rather sweep it under the carpet?

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Another Grooming Gang convicted, and not a Pakistani among them. I wonder what the proportion is now? Dropping all the time. And certainly no brushing it under the carpet as some like to think.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...shire-51740608

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Another Grooming Gang convicted, and not a Pakistani among them. I wonder what the proportion is now? Dropping all the time. And certainly no brushing it under the carpet as some like to think.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...shire-51740608

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Funny, you didn't share the same concerns about football coaches being targeted. I take it you'll put the same energy into protecting those who are victims of that slur ?

Nobody said all grooming gangs were Pakistani. What they said was that there were several cover ups of abuse rings involving Pakistani men, and wondered what the common thread was.

Why do you say there was no cover up in Rochdale when senior social workers, and police officers who worked on the case said there was?

https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?345344-Scottish-Football-Paedophile-Rings&p=6098963#post6098963

That's the thread there.

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Originally Posted by Cataplana

https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?345344-Scottish-Football-Paedophile-Rings&p=6098963#post6098963

That's the thread there.

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There are no blatant racist accusations against the perpetrators in the football abuse which is what I find is wrong with the original post in this thread.

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predominantly Pakistani not Chinese, not Indian, not Burmese, not Korean this is a cultural thing in which some Pakistani males feel they have the right to systematically abuse young white female kids

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And there is several instances where that is clearly not the case, the latest lot are Kurdish, so I will continue to call out the racism on this thread, thank you very much.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

There are no blatant racist accusations against the perpetrators in the football abuse which is what I find is wrong with the original post in this thread.



And there is several instances where that is clearly not the case, the latest lot are Kurdish, so I will continue to call out the racism on this thread, thank you very much.

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Fair enough. Why are people objecting to the Rochdale report?

Do you agree there is a case for a cover up?

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Originally Posted by Cataplana

Fair enough. Why are people objecting to the Rochdale report?

Do you agree there is a case for a cover up?

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I'll make my mind up when you provide a verified link.

Most of the alleged cover ups are historic and not current cases as shown by the number of cases coming to court.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

I'll make my mind up when you provide a verified link.

Most of the alleged cover ups are historic and not current cases as shown by the number of cases coming to court.

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Here is a link to someone questioning the report. Why would she do that?

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/operation-augusta-police-tried-cover-17565347

I'm actually interested in the allegation of cover ups in the report.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

There are no blatant racist accusations against the perpetrators in the football abuse which is what I find is wrong with the original post in this thread.



And there is several instances where that is clearly not the case, the latest lot are Kurdish, so I will continue to call out the racism on this thread, thank you very much.

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Are you seriously denying that this type of gang rape isn't an issue that involves predominantly men of Pakistani heritage? You just picked out of thin air a case involving Kurdish men but you failed to mention a case from last week in Huddersfield where 7 men all of Pakistani heritage were jailed for a total of 55 years, why? One of the victims was thought to have been raped by an estimated 300 men before her 15th birthday yet only 7 were convicted, why is that?

There's a recurring theme with victims in which they all mention having to "walk past men who raped me on the street". In Rochdale a victim mentions being taken into a flat and being surrounded by around 50 men who "passed me around like a football" she was 13 at the time, given that's only one instance on one night I can't even imagine how many were/are still involved and what these girls went through yet the majority of the abusers are still walking the streets, why? Sara Rowbotham in Rochdale highlighted around 150 men who she suspected, names, reg plates and addresses and thought she was only scratching the surface yet the majority still walk the streets.

Here's an excerpt from the Rochdale Wiki, some very prominent Pakistani men and women acknowledge what's happening. You should maybe think about what Sayeeda Warsi says below, I suggest you do more research before throwing around the racist card so easily.

"In a BBC documentary investigating grooming young girls for sex by some Pakistani men, Imam Irfan Chishti from the Rochdale Council of Mosques deplored the practice, saying it was "very shocking to see fellow British Muslims brought to court for this kind of horrific offence."[38][39] Mohammed Shafiq, chief executive of the Ramadhan Foundation, accused elders of the Pakistani community of "burying their heads in the sand" on the matter of sexual grooming. He said that of convictions involving child sexual exploitation, 87% were of British Pakistani men and it was a significant problem for that community. He said the actions of criminals who thought "white teenage girls are worthless and can be abused" were "bringing shame on our community."[3]

Sayeeda Warsi, co-chairperson of the Conservative Party, in an interview with the Evening Standard, said "You can only start solving a problem if you acknowledge it first," and added, "This small minority who see women as second class citizens, and white women probably as third class citizens, are to be spoken out against." She described the Rochdale case as "even more disgusting" than cases of girls being passed around street gangs, as the perpetrators "were grown men, some of them religious teachers or running businesses, with young families of their own."