When we gonna get over it ?

It's about being able to sustain success. It is very unlikely a team bumping about mid table or lower will win a lot of cups. St Johnstone showed it is possible now and again and it was an unusual year, but that’s not likely long term.

Winning cups would of course make us happy but if we were going to league games and watching us lose regularly then that wouldn’t work for long either.

Thankfully it isn’t really a choice. Hibs will try and build a team trying to do both.

What we might class as success is so moveable as we’ve seen this season that you just have to take that as it comes.

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Originally Posted by Crunchie

No, I think it would be more like 99.9 with you being the only dissenter. Who in their right mind would accept 3rd over a Scottish Cup, or even a League cup for that matter :confused:.

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And me, having poor league seasons where we lose lots of games would lose us season ticket sales, why would you buy a season ticket to watch pish every week, when you could just purchase a ticket every 6 weeks or so for a cup match.

Can you see that slippery slope?

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Originally Posted by B.H.F.C

How’s it indisputable? What would the club have benefitted more from? The season we had or the season St Johnstone had?

You’d be selling more season tickets, be entering a a better European competition if you’d had the latter. And rather than ‘having a better chance of winning cups’ you’d already have them in the bag.

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Immediately we’d have benefited more from the season that St Johnstone had, but long term - unless we were doing that every season, it’sa boom and bust strategy.


Consistently achieving third sets us up to win cups more often because of the wider benefits.

St Johnstone’s consistent top 6 finishes over the last however many years has given them the platform to win cups. The evidence odd right in front of you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by matty_f

Immediately we’d have benefited more from the season that St Johnstone had, but long term - unless we were doing that every season, it’sa boom and bust strategy.


Consistently achieving third sets us up to win cups more often because of the wider benefits.

St Johnstone’s consistent top 6 finishes over the last however many years has given them the platform to win cups. The evidence odd right in front of you.

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And yet despite what, for a club of their size, has been a long spell of remarkable consistency and success they remain woefully under-supported.

On the other hand the boost in terms of crowds/season ticket sales from 2016 has had a lasting impact for a club of Hibs' size and it remains desperately frustrating that we flopped so badly a couple of weeks back. Winning the cup again would have had immediate and longer term benefits.

I’m officially over it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by matty_f

Immediately we’d have benefited more from the season that St Johnstone had, but long term - unless we were doing that every season, it’sa boom and bust strategy.


Consistently achieving third sets us up to win cups more often because of the wider benefits.

St Johnstone’s consistent top 6 finishes over the last however many years has given them the platform to win cups. The evidence odd right in front of you.

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Prior to this season St Johnstone finished 6th (on PPG), 7th and 8th. And changed their manager. Hardly a great platform IMO. They just took the once in a generation opportunities that had presented themselves in the cups. I’m not sure they steadily built towards it over a period of time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by B.H.F.C

Prior to this season St Johnstone finished 6th (on PPG), 7th and 8th. And changed their manager. Hardly a great platform IMO. They just took the once in a generation opportunities that had presented themselves in the cups. I’m not sure they steadily built towards it over a period of time.

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Fair enough, i thought they’d pretty much been an ever present in the top six over the last however many years.

Edit : actually stand by my point, in 8 out of the last ten seasons they’ve finished top 6, including a 3rd place and three consecutive seasons in fourth.

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Originally Posted by Pagan Hibernia

I’m officially over it.

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I’m not even close.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by matty_f

Fair enough, i thought they’d pretty much been an ever present in the top six over the last however many years.

Edit : actually stand by my point, in 8 out of the last ten seasons they’ve finished top 6, including a 3rd place and three consecutive seasons in fourth.

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I’d take your point when looking at their 2014 win but not this season. They’d been a fair bit poorer for a good couple of years and transitioning to a new manager as well.

I don’t actually disagree with the theory that you should have a better chance of doing well in the cups if you’re doing well in the league. I just disagree about the benefits of third place finishes against a trophy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by B.H.F.C

I’d take your point when looking at their 2014 win but not this season. They’d been a fair bit poorer for a good couple of years and transitioning to a new manager as well.

I don’t actually disagree with the theory that you should have a better chance of doing well in the cups if you’re doing well in the league. I just disagree about the benefits of third place finishes against a trophy.

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The benefits are in the sustainability - a cup win every now and again will give you a lift but -particularly with the league cup - if you win that and the end of your season is rubbish then the lift you get is negligible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by matty_f

The benefits are in the sustainability - a cup win every now and again will give you a lift but -particularly with the league cup - if you win that and the end of your season is rubbish then the lift you get is negligible.

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I think your touching on the reason there remains a frustrated feeling of dissatisfaction with many. People were hoping for a happy summer with a cup win to add to the 3rd in the league. The very poor performance in the final has led to no end of season lift, in fact as you touch on,the opposite - ending on a big downer ...

It’s only fitba though ...sun is shining ..loads of other things to enjoy now ...

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Originally Posted by matty_f

The benefits are in the sustainability - a cup win every now and again will give you a lift but -particularly with the league cup - if you win that and the end of your season is rubbish then the lift you get is negligible.

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I come back to the Aberdeen example though. Not been out of the top four for about 8 seasons and where had it got them? I don’t even think they’ve got as far as the playoff round in Europe and one league cup right at the start of the cycle. Crap season ticket numbers and punters generally underwhelmed. It was the cup win that saw our season tickets spike and despite only being in the top four twice since then, we’ve largely managed to maintain. If we’d won a fortnight ago we’d have smashed our record IMO. More money going in to this season to help us improve further.

Probably never unfortunately. Wasn't one disaster was 3 in a matter of months.

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Originally Posted by B.H.F.C

I come back to the Aberdeen example though. Not been out of the top four for about 8 seasons and where had it got them? I don’t even think they’ve got as far as the playoff round in Europe and one league cup right at the start of the cycle. Crap season ticket numbers and punters generally underwhelmed. It was the cup win that saw our season tickets spike and despite only being in the top four twice since then, we’ve largely managed to maintain. If we’d won a fortnight ago we’d have smashed our record IMO. More money going in to this season to help us improve further.

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I'm not sure what point you're making here. Teams will also always try to win every cup competition they enter. When Hibs go into a knock-out match against anyone then they'll be looking to win it. However, clubs don't decide whether they're going to win a cup or not. A tough draw, a missed penalty, a dodgy referee - all sorts of things can happen over the course of a cup run which results in being knocked out.

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Originally Posted by Peevemor

I'm not sure what point you're making here. Teams will also always try to win every cup competition they enter. When Hibs go into a knock-out match against anyone then they'll be looking to win it. However, clubs don't decide whether they're going to win a cup or not. A tough draw, a missed penalty, a dodgy referee - all sorts of things can happen over the course of a cup run which results in being knocked out.

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Equally, I’m not sure what point you’re making.

I think my posts are quite clear in that I’m saying I think there is more benefit in going and winning something as opposed to the benefits you get from consistent top four finishes.

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Originally Posted by Hibiza

Probably never unfortunately. Wasn't one disaster was 3 in a matter of months.

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:agree:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by B.H.F.C

Equally, I’m not sure what point you’re making.

I think my posts are quite clear in that I’m saying I think there is more benefit in going and winning something as opposed to the benefits you get from consistent top four finishes.

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There's also more benefit to winning the Euromillions jackpot than working for 45+ years for even a slightly above average salary. It's not something you can plan for though. Working does mean you have money to spend on lottery tickets though.

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Originally Posted by Peevemor

There's also more benefit to winning the Euromillions jackpot than working for 45+ years for even a slightly above average salary. It's not something you can plan for though.

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I was having a reasonable debate with someone who thinks there is more benefit to doing well consistently in the league than there is to the perceived short term benefit of a cup win. I don’t see what’s difficult to comprehend about that and your comparison is, frankly, stupid.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by B.H.F.C

I was having a reasonable debate with someone who thinks there is more benefit to doing well consistently in the league than there is to the perceived short term benefit of a cup win. I don’t see what’s difficult to comprehend about that and your comparison is, frankly, stupid.

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I would remind you that it's an open forum, and I don't think my analogy was at all stupid.

But, I understand. Anything I post is going to annoy you and get your back up so I'll butt out.

Chill!

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Originally Posted by Hibiza

Probably never unfortunately. Wasn't one disaster was 3 in a matter of months.

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Might as well pack it in then eh?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by B.H.F.C

Equally, I’m not sure what point you’re making.

I think my posts are quite clear in that I’m saying I think there is more benefit in going and winning something as opposed to the benefits you get from consistent top four finishes.

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Your point is clear enough.

The way that money is distributed and European places are allocated make a high placing in the league financially important, but in sport the truth is that 1st is the winner and 2nd is nowhere.

There’s no glory in being best of the rest. No trophy, no medals, no lifelong memories.

Given how far the ugly sisters are ahead of us and our record in Europe, domestic cups are where it’s at.

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Originally Posted by Brightside

No it’s not. Some fans would rather have a cup win but a consistent league placing year after year is worth much more to our club.

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Would rather have a trophy over 3rd place, every time.

That is why this thread is still going.

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Originally Posted by Allez Hibs

Would rather have a trophy over 3rd place, every time.

That is why this thread is still going.

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:agree:
I’m certain everyone would, no matter what some might suggest on here. Not doing (a lot) better in the 3 clear cup opportunities this term was hugely disappointing. Some folks get disgusted mind you, I just think we underperformed massively and as a result, the club lost a lot of immediate revenue and potential revenue. Anyone thinking otherwise doesn’t understand life never mind football and I’m surprised some of the staff are getting off with it. With fans present, the ride would not be so easy I’m certain.

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Originally Posted by Hibiza

Probably never unfortunately. Wasn't one disaster.

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You'd have been closer if you'd left it there.

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Originally Posted by Jones28

Might as well pack it in then eh?

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Don’t tempt me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs

And me, having poor league seasons where we lose lots of games would lose us season ticket sales, why would you buy a season ticket to watch pish every week, when you could just purchase a ticket every 6 weeks or so for a cup match.

Can you see that slippery slope?

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I'm not a fair weather fan so I wouldn't fall into that category :greengrin, and obviously I wouldn't want us to have a poor league season, far from it.

I don't know why I'm even on this thread because I'm over the final, and I'm in the keep Jack Ross camp, he has us banging on the door and that's fine by me.
I believe I was replying to Mr Brightside who's happy to finish higher up the league than actually win anything, and you seem to agree with him. I don't, give me a trophy and day of the week over a 3rd place finish.
I agree with what Matty is saying in as far as if you have a better team you have a better chance of winning something but that doesn't always follow. The much fabled Hibs team of the 70's as you well know won 1
major honour and ended up relegated.
Given the choice of course I'd like both a high finish and winning cups, but if I had to choose I'd even take relegation if it meant winning the Scottish cup again. After all we know we'll bounce back up and challenge again.

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Originally Posted by B.H.F.C

How’s it indisputable? What would the club have benefitted more from? The season we had or the season St Johnstone had?

You’d be selling more season tickets, be entering a a better European competition if you’d had the latter. And rather than ‘having a better chance of winning cups’ you’d already have them in the bag.

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Manager would've been hounded out had we had the league season they did.

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Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES

Manager would've been hounded out had we had the league season they did.

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Presume you mean Saints league season alone ie without their Cup wins.
Had we had their exact season - under par league and cup double - no way would the manager even be on a shaky peg, never mind hounded out.
BTW I heard direct from a Saints backroom staffer that we selected and played exactly as they had expected and planned and that "Hibs made it easy for us". That does not reflect well on JR.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES

Manager would've been hounded out had we had the league season they did.

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Hounded out for finishing 5th and doing the cup double? Sounds like one of our best ever seasons.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Greenbeard

Presume you mean Saints league season alone ie without their Cup wins.
Had we had their exact season - under par league and cup double - no way would the manager even be on a shaky peg, never mind hounded out.
BTW I heard direct from a Saints backroom staffer that we selected and played exactly as they had expected and planned and that "Hibs made it easy for us". That does not reflect well on JR.

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Not surprised with that information from Saints back room staffer.

Its like Calum Davidson handed Hibs a plan and said this is how I want you to play,and Hibs followed it to the letter.

However it’s now past so let’s look forward to next season and hope JR and coaching staff can do their homework on opposing teams a bit better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Modfather

Hounded out for finishing 5th and doing the cup double? Sounds like one of our best ever seasons.

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'League season'

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Modfather

Hounded out for finishing 5th and doing the cup double? Sounds like one of our best ever seasons.

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It’s unlikely we’d have been patient enough after 1 win in 10 (or whatever it was) at the start of the season.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by matty_f

Immediately we’d have benefited more from the season that St Johnstone had, but long term - unless we were doing that every season, it’sa boom and bust strategy.


Consistently achieving third sets us up to win cups more often because of the wider benefits.

St Johnstone’s consistent top 6 finishes over the last however many years has given them the platform to win cups. The evidence odd right in front of you.

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How is it a boom or bust strategy?

St Johnstone have had a wonderfully successful season, largely at our expense. I’ll bet they wish they could play us every week.

This isn’t like Livi in 2004 who beat us to the league cup by spending money they didn’t have on better players. This is a St Johnstone squad built on a much smaller budget (including several players deemed not good enough for Hibs) who had our number.

If that doesn’t prompt some serious soul searching, I don’t know what does. We blew it big time, and I’m not in the mood to hear platitudes about how great the boys were in the league. I want to hear from a management team that has realised where we went wrong and is taking steps to address those failings.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Allez Hibs

Would rather have a trophy over 3rd place, every time.

That is why this thread is still going.

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I think the majority would agree. Thing is you don’t get the choice.

The best way to chase the cups is to also be consistent in the league but for some reason it feels like a lot of folk are happy to write off consistency in the league while forgetting if we were inconsistent that they’d be raging and want the manager sacked - creating more instability which in turn makes us less likely to win all the cups.

As many posters have stated, finishing third in the league is second best to winning a Cup-especially our Holy Grail, the Scottish Cup. I think Jack Ross only has a few credits left in the bank but obviously hope he and Hibs succeed. Last season was a massive opportunity to have bagged at least one piece of silverware and so will hurt for a good while ..:brickwall

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CJHibby

As many posters have stated, finishing third in the league is second best to winning a Cup-especially our Holy Grail, the Scottish Cup. I think Jack Ross only has a few credits left in the bank but obviously hope he and Hibs succeed. Last season was a massive opportunity to have bagged at least one piece of silverware and so will hurt for a good while ..:brickwall

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We have just finished 3rd which is realistically the best we will ever do so forgive me if I am prepared to give him more than " a few credits."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jacomo

How is it a boom or bust strategy?

St Johnstone have had a wonderfully successful season, largely at our expense. I’ll bet they wish they could play us every week.

This isn’t like Livi in 2004 who beat us to the league cup by spending money they didn’t have on better players. This is a St Johnstone squad built on a much smaller budget (including several players deemed not good enough for Hibs) who had our number.

If that doesn’t prompt some serious soul searching, I don’t know what does. We blew it big time, and I’m not in the mood to hear platitudes about how great the boys were in the league. I want to hear from a management team that has realised where we went wrong and is taking steps to address those failings.

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I don't think we'll be hearing much from our management team about where our game plan went wrong, the time for that was after the final when Ross could (should ) have apologised to the fans for such a dismal showing. Hopefully though, he will have learned and be able to rectify the teams failings this coming season. By the end of this transfer window the side will by and large be one of his making/choosing and Ross will stand or fall by them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

I don't think we'll be hearing much from our management team about where our game plan went wrong, the time for that was after the final when Ross could (should ) have apologised to the fans for such a dismal showing. Hopefully though, he will have learned and be able to rectify the teams failings this coming season. By the end of this transfer window the side will by and large be one of his making/choosing and Ross will stand or fall by them.

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I have to admit that the games against St Johnstone are what concerns me about Ross. They were all the same and he didn’t seem to have a plan b of an idea of what to do to take st Johnstone out of their comfort zone. That’s what concerned me more than anything else about the manner in which we lost the final tbh

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Calmbegbie

I have to admit that the games against St Johnstone are what concerns me about Ross. They were all the same and he didn’t seem to have a plan b of an idea of what to do to take st Johnstone out of their comfort zone. That’s what concerned me more than anything else about the manner in which we lost the final tbh

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It's not a new problem though and certainly not exclusive to Jack Ross. Stubbs & Lennon also struggled against teams that parked the bus.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peevemor

It's not a new problem though and certainly not exclusive to Jack Ross. Stubbs & Lennon also struggled against teams that parked the bus.

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Lennon never beat St Johnstone at Hibs. :agree:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Danderhall Hibs

It’s unlikely we’d have been patient enough after 1 win in 10 (or whatever it was) at the start of the season.

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St Johnstone weren’t. Tommy Wright left.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jacomo

How is it a boom or bust strategy?

St Johnstone have had a wonderfully successful season, largely at our expense. I’ll bet they wish they could play us every week.

This isn’t like Livi in 2004 who beat us to the league cup by spending money they didn’t have on better players. This is a St Johnstone squad built on a much smaller budget (including several players deemed not good enough for Hibs) who had our number.

If that doesn’t prompt some serious soul searching, I don’t know what does. We blew it big time, and I’m not in the mood to hear platitudes about how great the boys were in the league. I want to hear from a management team that has realised where we went wrong and is taking steps to address those failings.

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It’s boom or just because it relies on putting your eggs in one, very difficult to achieve, basket.

Regular average seasons with a cup win every now and again is what we’ve had historically, albeit with fewer cup wins than we’d want.

St Johnstone are a consistent top 6 side, which helped them achieve what they’ve achieved. We’ve been relegated, stayed in the Championship for three seasons while we rebuilt, and St Johnstone have been able to use that stability and relative success to get success.

We’ve been building and were very close to achieving it as well.

The sustainable approach, in terms of keeping fans coming through the gates and building a solid financial footing, is to build a team that consistently competes at the top end of the table, and in doing do you also set up for winning cups on a more regular basis.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jacomo

St Johnstone weren’t. Tommy Wright left.

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That was Davidson’s record, so they were. :wink:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by matty_f

It’s boom or just because it relies on putting your eggs in one, very difficult to achieve, basket.

Regular average seasons with a cup win every now and again is what we’ve had historically, albeit with fewer cup wins than we’d want.

St Johnstone are a consistent top 6 side, which helped them achieve what they’ve achieved. We’ve been relegated, stayed in the Championship for three seasons while we rebuilt, and St Johnstone have been able to use that stability and relative success to get success.

We’ve been building and were very close to achieving it as well.

The sustainable approach, in terms of keeping fans coming through the gates and building a solid financial footing, is to build a team that consistently competes at the top end of the table, and in doing do you also set up for winning cups on a more regular basis.

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I agree, you would expect a team that finishes at the top end of the table to have a more solid foundation and compete for cups. That said, Hibs have been rebuilding the club from the time we were relegated, the time in the Championship is a bit skewed by the nature of the competition we faced. I suspect our budget whilst in the Championship was still considerable greater than St Johnstone's? We've still seen significant investment in Hibs these past seven or so years, no matter which league we were in?

Ideally we could have a team that is always in the top six and.....here's the big one, one that wins more games at Hampden than it loses. Eight appearances at Hampden since 2016 and one win, with only three of those games v any of the Old Firm. That isn't a sustainable approach, it's soul destroying. A bit more achieving it, and a few less tepid performances is all we ask for.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

I agree, you would expect a team that finishes at the top end of the table to have a more solid foundation and compete for cups. That said, Hibs have been rebuilding the club from the time we were relegated, the time in the Championship is a bit skewed by the nature of the competition we faced. I suspect our budget whilst in the Championship was still considerable greater than St Johnstone's? We've still seen significant investment in Hibs these past seven or so years, no matter which league we were in?

Ideally we could have a team that is always in the top six and.....here's the big one, one that wins more games at Hampden than it loses. Eight appearances at Hampden since 2016 and one win, with only three of those games v any of the Old Firm. That isn't a sustainable approach, it's soul destroying. A bit more achieving it, and a few less tepid performances is all we ask for.

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I think the number of Hampden trips (and, sadly, subsequent disappointments) tells us that the consistency and the rebuilding is working, we just need that bit extra when it really matters - but we’re right in the mix almost every time, which can’t be said by many teams in the country.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by matty_f

That was Davidson’s record, so they were. :wink:

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Fair point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by matty_f

It’s boom or just because it relies on putting your eggs in one, very difficult to achieve, basket.

Regular average seasons with a cup win every now and again is what we’ve had historically, albeit with fewer cup wins than we’d want.

St Johnstone are a consistent top 6 side, which helped them achieve what they’ve achieved. We’ve been relegated, stayed in the Championship for three seasons while we rebuilt, and St Johnstone have been able to use that stability and relative success to get success.

We’ve been building and were very close to achieving it as well.

The sustainable approach, in terms of keeping fans coming through the gates and building a solid financial footing, is to build a team that consistently competes at the top end of the table, and in doing do you also set up for winning cups on a more regular basis.

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I’m still baffled here though, I’m afraid.

I don’t see anything risky about the way St Johnstone have gone about their business. They’ve just been significantly better at it than us.

Just have to leave it at that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Modfather

Hounded out for finishing 5th and doing the cup double? Sounds like one of our best ever seasons.

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The way they started the season would've seen the manager hounded out. They were brilliant this year, not so much before.

They won 11 league matches all season. From 38, that is poor.

Stubbs very nearly won both cups, and folk still give him stick for the poor league season. This would be no different.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES

The way they started the season would've seen the manager hounded out. They were brilliant this year, not so much before.

They won 11 league matches all season. From 38, that is poor.

Stubbs very nearly won both cups, and folk still give him stick for the poor league season. This would be no different.

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I’m sure I heard/read that they scored 9 goals at home all season. A Hibs manager would be hounded out for that alone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Danderhall Hibs

I’m sure I heard/read that they scored 9 goals at home all season. A Hibs manager would be hounded out for that alone.

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Strangely enough I’d saw a similar stat saying they’d scored 18 but 7 of them were against Kelty in a cup. On the presumption what you’re saying was just league goals then it is probably about right I’d imagine.

For all the talk of them being this really good team, they’re actually a bit ****.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by calumhibee1

Strangely enough I’d saw a similar stat saying they’d scored 18 but 7 of them were against Kelty in a cup. On the presumption what you’re saying was just league goals then it is probably about right I’d imagine.

For all the talk of them being this really good team, they’re actually a bit ****.

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They play the way most Scottish teams play, go out to stifle any joy in the game. They are entitled to do that but its rotten to watch.

What they do have and shouldn't be ignored is team spirit in abundance, all their players are carefully picked to fit in with each other and are made to feel that St Johnstone is their home.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

I’d love us to be **** enough to win a cup double.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jacomo

I’m still baffled here though, I’m afraid.

I don’t see anything risky about the way St Johnstone have gone about their business. They’ve just been significantly better at it than us.

Just have to leave it at that.

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St Johnstone haven’t done the boom or bust. They’re success is built upon their relative league success, that’s why you can’t see the risk.

Top 6 in 8 out of the last ten seasons, including a third and three consecutive fourth place finishes. They’ve built steadily towards this point. I think they’re only on their second manager of that period as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by matty_f

I think the number of Hampden trips (and, sadly, subsequent disappointments) tells us that the consistency and the rebuilding is working, we just need that bit extra when it really matters - but we’re right in the mix almost every time, which can’t be said by many teams in the country.

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I've calmed down a bit and probably agree largely with what you are saying. My main gripe is how often I've heard this about Hibs team. We always seem to be on the cusp. I like the set up of the club, Ross has done well but I'm not sure we can suggest that our recent record of visits to Hampden is a sign that we will come good and start winning them more than not. I certainly hope that's the case but professional football rarely allows for teams to develop and grow unless have are funded by oil billions. We could be on the verge of years of success, but if Hibs history is anything to go by, we could just as easily see the team dismantled in the summer and end up mid table.

After 2016 similar noises were made about this just being the beginning, culture at the club has moved and we'll start seeing more success. We've undoubtedly had some good years after that, but I don't think we've really kicked on to the extent I hoped.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by matty_f

St Johnstone haven’t done the boom or bust. They’re success is built upon their relative league success, that’s why you can’t see the risk.

Top 6 in 8 out of the last ten seasons, including a third and three consecutive fourth place finishes. They’ve built steadily towards this point. I think they’re only on their second manager of that period as well.

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They're actually better than we give them credit for :agree:

The St Johnston of old were clearly also rans... that's no longer the case.



Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by matty_f

I think the number of Hampden trips (and, sadly, subsequent disappointments) tells us that the consistency and the rebuilding is working, we just need that bit extra when it really matters - but we’re right in the mix almost every time, which can’t be said by many teams in the country.

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They were saying same thing in 1907 and it turned out ok eventually. Just need more faith and patience 👍

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Originally Posted by Crunchie

I'm not a fair weather fan so I wouldn't fall into that category :greengrin, and obviously I wouldn't want us to have a poor league season, far from it.

I don't know why I'm even on this thread because I'm over the final, and I'm in the keep Jack Ross camp, he has us banging on the door and that's fine by me.
I believe I was replying to Mr Brightside who's happy to finish higher up the league than actually win anything, and you seem to agree with him. I don't, give me a trophy and day of the week over a 3rd place finish.
I agree with what Matty is saying in as far as if you have a better team you have a better chance of winning something but that doesn't always follow. The much fabled Hibs team of the 70's as you well know won 1
major honour and ended up relegated.
Given the choice of course I'd like both a high finish and winning cups, but if I had to choose I'd even take relegation if it meant winning the Scottish cup again. After all we know we'll bounce back up and challenge again.

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I understand what you mean, i'd have loved to win the cup this season and finished 5th or 6th, but we dont get that choice it would be good if we did.:greengrin

Can you imagine this board had we lost more matches than we actually did, and the team was languishing outside a European place before the quarters or the semi or even the final ?

The frothers would be wanting everyone from the manager down to the tea lady sacked for such a horrendous season, some of our horror shows would be slaughtered for weeks and the negativity would know no bounds.

But everything would turn out ok in the end, because we would have won the cup. :greengrin

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Originally Posted by neil7908

I've calmed down a bit and probably agree largely with what you are saying. My main gripe is how often I've heard this about Hibs team. We always seem to be on the cusp. I like the set up of the club, Ross has done well but I'm not sure we can suggest that our recent record of visits to Hampden is a sign that we will come good and start winning them more than not. I certainly hope that's the case but professional football rarely allows for teams to develop and grow unless have are funded by oil billions. We could be on the verge of years of success, but if Hibs history is anything to go by, we could just as easily see the team dismantled in the summer and end up mid table.

After 2016 similar noises were made about this just being the beginning, culture at the club has moved and we'll start seeing more success. We've undoubtedly had some good years after that, but I don't think we've really kicked on to the extent I hoped.

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I think the biggest difference that i can see better where we are today and promising moments in the past, is that we seem to have our act together off the field with a clear strategy and idea of how to capitalise.

When we sold the golden generation, we had huge debt to repay, we built the training centre and later built the East Stand.

We’ve almost no debt now (other than the known government loan of £2m over 20 years, interest free).

When we previously brought in money for transfers, we spent pretty poorly - we’ve got a functioning recruitment team now.

We’ve got a better youth set up, now seeing partnerships with other clubs to improve our players but also to give access to better players.

While nothing in football is guaranteed, and you can have a season where things go very wrong, the trend towards getting to the later stages of cup competitions is happening by design, rather than accident.

It won’t be a smooth upward trend all the time, there will be bumps along the way as we’ve seen already, but plan and ambitions that the club are working towards are very much about making us a consistently successful (by most measures) side.

Through the STF and Petrie days, the club strategy was to do the most with the money were brought in -spend a pound less than we take in, and given the owner’s preferences for how he saw the club, that was about as good a strategy as we could get - build the infrastructure and make that money work for you.

We now have an opener with a bit more of an appetite for calculated risk and I’d be amazed if Ron Gordon’s eventual exit strategy doesn’t involve him handing over a much bigger, much more successful club than the one he took over.

Yip! I remember Fergus McCann rode off into the sunset with a young blonde Glaswegian Lawyer on his arm

If Ron can do half as good a job I will be happy

Seem to remember McCann getting nothing but abuse from the best supporters in the land

I digress :greengrin

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Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs

I understand what you mean, i'd have loved to win the cup this season and finished 5th or 6th, but we dont get that choice it would be good if we did.:greengrin

Can you imagine this board had we lost more matches than we actually did, and the team was languishing outside a European place before the quarters or the semi or even the final ?

The frothers would be wanting everyone from the manager down to the tea lady sacked for such a horrendous season, some of our horror shows would be slaughtered for weeks and the negativity would know no bounds.

But everything would turn out ok in the end, because we would have won the cup. :greengrin

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As a well known frother yourself, don’t be blaming that solely on others.

:wink:

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Originally Posted by jacomo

As a well known frother yourself, don’t be blaming that solely on others.

:wink:

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:greengrin

Can you imagine the scenario though, Hibs sheite all season, but because we are guaranteed to win a cup, we will all be polite and civil to each other, commenting about how unlucky we were to lose against Dundee St Mirren and Airdrie in the League cup, as Jack was only trying things out in preparation for our Scottish cup run. :faf:

Yes i'm sure we'd all be clamouring up to the ground to snap up those season tickets, so we can watch us struggle around mid table losing more games than we just did, because come the end of May, it's party time. :top marks

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Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs

:greengrin

Can you imagine the scenario though, Hibs sheite all season, but because we are guaranteed to win a cup, we will all be polite and civil to each other, commenting about how unlucky we were to lose against Dundee St Mirren and Airdrie in the League cup, as Jack was only trying things out in preparation for our Scottish cup run. :faf:

Yes i'm sure we'd all be clamouring up to the ground to snap up those season tickets, so we can watch us struggle around mid table losing more games than we just did, because come the end of May, it's party time. :top marks

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There'd be an inquiry called for and a Jack Ross out poll for not finishing 3rd

Over 2 weeks now and there's still some hurting from that defeat, jeez get over it. We had a pretty successful season league wise and yes the cup results were very poor considering but that's football. Did Ross make mistakes, yes! Will he learn from them, lets hope so! Did the players play poorly, yes!

It's time to move on and look forward to next season, if these same things continue then we can start really moaning but lets look forward and build on a fairly successful season.

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Originally Posted by J-C

Over 2 weeks now and there's still some hurting from that defeat, jeez get over it. We had a pretty successful season league wise and yes the cup results were very poor considering but that's football. Did Ross make mistakes, yes! Will he learn from them, lets hope so! Did the players play poorly, yes!

It's time to move on and look forward to next season, if these same things continue then we can start really moaning but lets look forward and build on a fairly successful season.

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You don't get to dictate when others do or don't get over something, though. Anyone is entitled to still be upset about the final. Players probably still are.

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Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES

You don't get to dictate when others do or don't get over something, though. Anyone is entitled to still be upset about the final. Players probably still are.

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If you have an awful day at work before you go on holiday do you let it spoil it? Do you dwell on bad days at the office?

Sure as **** they don't because if they did it would be so all consuming it would eat them alive.

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Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs

:greengrin

Can you imagine the scenario though, Hibs sheite all season, but because we are guaranteed to win a cup, we will all be polite and civil to each other, commenting about how unlucky we were to lose against Dundee St Mirren and Airdrie in the League cup, as Jack was only trying things out in preparation for our Scottish cup run. :faf:

Yes i'm sure we'd all be clamouring up to the ground to snap up those season tickets, so we can watch us struggle around mid table losing more games than we just did, because come the end of May, it's party time. :top marks

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Would it be so bad? :greengrin

In all seriousness, I agree with you and others that if Hibs are in the top 4 then we really shouldn’t be moaning. If we can kick on and firmly establish ourselves in the top 4 then all good.

The cup competitions were a real kick in the teeth though and it creates doubts about this team’s ability to deliver in the vital moments.

The semi final and two finals were all awful and I’m not over it yet.

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Originally Posted by jacomo

Would it be so bad? :greengrin

In all seriousness, I agree with you and others that if Hibs are in the top 4 then we really shouldn’t be moaning. If we can kick on and firmly establish ourselves in the top 4 then all good.

The cup competitions were a real kick in the teeth though and it creates doubts about this team’s ability to deliver in the vital moments.

The semi final and two finals were all awful and I’m not over it yet.

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It would be great, we could forget about every result bar the Scottish cup games, so apart from 5 or 6 games a year we could do something else on a Saturday and rock up for those ties and think the world is wonderful.:wink:

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Originally Posted by Jones28

If you have an awful day at work before you go on holiday do you let it spoil it? Do you dwell on bad days at the office?

Sure as **** they don't because if they did it would be so all consuming it would eat them alive.

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There is a difference between hiding away from the world and still being bothered by something. You think guys like Hanlon and Stevenson just forget these things? Pretty sure they have both said bad results from the past still bother them

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Originally Posted by Jones28

If you have an awful day at work before you go on holiday do you let it spoil it? Do you dwell on bad days at the office?

Sure as **** they don't because if they did it would be so all consuming it would eat them alive.

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To be fair football is not a normal job in that respect. There is not really a comparable day you can have in the office that would be like losing a Scottish cup final infront of a worldwide audience in the hundreds of thousands and the sense of lost glory that inevitably brings.

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Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES

You don't get to dictate when others do or don't get over something, though. Anyone is entitled to still be upset about the final. Players probably still are.

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Some of them are busy drinking cocktails on holiday. I think they are managing to not be too depressed. mainly because they know its finished and the most important thing is to remove it from your memory and start again. Being upset about a football game 2 weeks later just doesnt make much sense. We shouldnt even be thinking about it now.

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Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs

:greengrin

Can you imagine the scenario though, Hibs sheite all season, but because we are guaranteed to win a cup, we will all be polite and civil to each other, commenting about how unlucky we were to lose against Dundee St Mirren and Airdrie in the League cup, as Jack was only trying things out in preparation for our Scottish cup run. :faf:

Yes i'm sure we'd all be clamouring up to the ground to snap up those season tickets, so we can watch us struggle around mid table losing more games than we just did, because come the end of May, it's party time. :top marks

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I continue to be perplexed at your move towards being the voice of reason on here....:greengrin:greengrin

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Originally Posted by Brightside

Some of them are busy drinking cocktails on holiday. I think they are managing to not be too depressed. mainly because they know its finished and the most important thing is to remove it from your memory and start again. Being upset about a football game 2 weeks later just doesnt make much sense. We shouldnt even be thinking about it now.

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Why shouldn’t we think about it any more? Who dictates how others think or why they think what they think?

I’m hardly ready to throw myself in front of a bus, I’m not struggling to sleep or anything. But as far as Hibs go the cup final (and the ongoing uncertainty about getting in to games) has completely scunnered me. I’m glad the season is done and not missing it whatsoever, which is unusual for me.

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Originally Posted by jacomo

Would it be so bad? :greengrin

In all seriousness, I agree with you and others that if Hibs are in the top 4 then we really shouldn’t be moaning. If we can kick on and firmly establish ourselves in the top 4 then all good.

The cup competitions were a real kick in the teeth though and it creates doubts about this team’s ability to deliver in the vital moments.

The semi final and two finals were all awful and I’m not over it yet.

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Not so bad that you got two finals out of it, what other semi did we win?:greengrin

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Originally Posted by Brightside

Some of them are busy drinking cocktails on holiday. I think they are managing to not be too depressed. mainly because they know its finished and the most important thing is to remove it from your memory and start again. Being upset about a football game 2 weeks later just doesnt make much sense. We shouldnt even be thinking about it now.

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I personally hope the players enjoy their time off, come back reinvigorated and determined to repay the fans faith in them. They let us and themselves down in the last game of the season and they will know that too.

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Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES

You don't get to dictate when others do or don't get over something, though. Anyone is entitled to still be upset about the final. Players probably still are.

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Exactly, everyone is different. Some folk need to get that and accept it. Game irks me as much as any in the last 5 years. Not the defeat so much as the manner of it.

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Originally Posted by Brightside

I continue to be perplexed at your move towards being the voice of reason on here....:greengrin:greengrin

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:greengrin I can be as miserable as anyone, but i do need a reason. :timebomb:

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Originally Posted by Jones28

If you have an awful day at work before you go on holiday do you let it spoil it? Do you dwell on bad days at the office?

Sure as **** they don't because if they did it would be so all consuming it would eat them alive.

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I have this guy on ignore and he still replies to me for some reason, I only see his reply on my phone which is a pain, always better on my laptop as his comments are hidden.

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Originally Posted by J-C

I have this guy on ignore and he still replies to me for some reason, I only see his reply on my phone which is a pain, always better on my laptop as his comments are hidden.

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:faf:

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Originally Posted by Brightside

Some of them are busy drinking cocktails on holiday. I think they are managing to not be too depressed. mainly because they know its finished and the most important thing is to remove it from your memory and start again. Being upset about a football game 2 weeks later just doesnt make much sense. We shouldnt even be thinking about it now.

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I don't cancel holidays after making a mistake at work. The mistake still bothers me, though. They are hardly going to post selfies of themselves depressed are they?

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Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES

:faf:

I don't cancel holidays after making a mistake at work. The mistake still bothers me, though. They are hardly going to post selfies of themselves depressed are they?

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I'm on his ignore list too apparently. We obviously don't meet the criteria to be in the grumpy gang.

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Originally Posted by Peevemor

I'm on his ignore list too apparently. We obviously don't meet the criteria to be in the grumpy gang.

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I'd laugh less without him. A very angry poster, especially when called out for posting rubbish.

I want to put on the record that those of us who were or still are annoyed because of the cup final, are not annoyed/concerned because of the result. If we had shown up and played alright then I doubt as many would have grumbled. The result isn't the issue. What is the issue is that we had so many games, too many games in cup and at ER in the league when we just didn't turn up, didn't even look like a team who knew how to win those games. He's had a full season to sort out that inconsistency but hasn't. Those who believe he will learn from that performance have misplaced their beliefs, from his comments post matches, it's all down to fine margins. Even Tanner and wee Tam apologised for some of those home performances which we saw on HibsPass. All of those cup games when we didn't turn up were seen by many on tv and highlights. It would have been worse if fans had access to the ground for games because more fans would have seen how low we can go. I remember JR apologising once for us falling below standard in a home game, but it's happened more than once and he never did apologise for that no show cup final, it was all just down to fine margins, not team/tactics selection, not being able to motivate the players to do what he wanted, nothing only fine margins. Having said all that I understand without anyone telling me that we won't get perfection. Is a bit more consistency too much to ask for though? It's not as though we have a young team out, which you'd expect inconsistency from, most of our team are seasoned and highly experienced players. Over the season the majority of tv pundits with far more experience in that level of football than I have, have said we are a good team, obviously in an SPFL context and I accept that as fact. I would have taken 3rd place and another SC final appearance at the start of the season and would have deemed that as a successful season, so shouldn't grumble. It's annoying though to have that SC slip out of our reach in the manner that it did, which was typical of some other performances we witnessed last season. So nothing had changed. The coming season will be a big season for us, but of course every season is. I will be looking for more consistency, fewer games when we have big fails and if we get that I'll accept whatever we achieve or don't achieve.

I don’t mind admitting I’m more excited for the Euros next week than I was before the cup final. Some of that is due to it being a coronavirus season and just not having the same attachment to football every week and it never feeling quite like a Scottish cup final the same it had in previous years. Whereas the lost feeling of Scotland being at a tournament returning (as well as loving international tournaments anyway) has got me really up for things again… I’m hoping that isn’t curbed by the pandemic as well.

Beauty of it is although I’m more excited, there’s little chance of me ending up feeling as disappointed as the cup final did, as expectations are much lower.

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Originally Posted by scoopyboy

Not so bad that you got two finals out of it, what other semi did we win?:greengrin

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I’m just making stuff up now clearly!

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Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES

:faf:



I don't cancel holidays after making a mistake at work. The mistake still bothers me, though. They are hardly going to post selfies of themselves depressed are they?

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They are professional footballers - they will be fine.

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Originally Posted by Brightside

They are professional footballers - they will be fine.

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Do professional footballers not have personal lifes, struggles and stresses like everyone else?

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Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES

Do professional footballers not have personal lifes, struggles and stresses like everyone else?

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You are arguing something that really doesnt need to be argued. A professional sportsman knows how to take the disappointment of losing a game and thats not to wallow in it for 2/3 weeks.

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Originally Posted by Brightside

You are arguing something that really doesnt need to be argued. A professional sportsman knows how to take the disappointment of losing a game and thats not to wallow in it for 2/3 weeks.

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Does anything need to be argued?

That isn't the case for every one of them. As many articles and interviews with sportsmen and women over the last few years as showed. Some really struggle with it. Some take a few weeks, some take days, some take years.

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Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES

Does anything need to be argued?

That isn't the case for every one of them. As many articles and interviews with sportsmen and women over the last few years as showed. Some really struggle with it. Some take a few weeks, some take days, some take years.

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:agree:

Lewis Stevenson said in time for heroes that he immediately thought ‘here we go again’ when we went behind in the final. The idea that these things don’t have an impact on players and that it’s completely forgotten about within days/weeks purely because they’re professional football players is nonsense.

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Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES

Does anything need to be argued?

That isn't the case for every one of them. As many articles and interviews with sportsmen and women over the last few years as showed. Some really struggle with it. Some take a few weeks, some take days, some take years.

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OK

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Originally Posted by calumhibee1

:agree:

Lewis Stevenson said in time for heroes that he immediately thought ‘here we go again’ when we went behind in the final. The idea that these things don’t have an impact on players and that it’s completely forgotten about within days/weeks purely because they’re professional football players is nonsense.

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Got to agree with this. Of course players are affected by the psychological impact of things that happen on the field, we hear this all the time, from players and managers. There will be some who care more and some for whom it's water off a professionals ducks back.

WE could probably have a good stab at guesstimating a hurt-o-meter on here and not be that far wrong. I would say that guys like Stevenson and Hanlon who are so invested in Hibs will always regret that they didn't make history by becoming double Scottish Cup winners. They may have removed the hair shirt and underpants, sipped a few cocktails by the pool, polished their 2016 winners medal, but I would imagine it's not just water under the bridge to them.

I dont think anyone's suggesting fans and players aren't hurting after a cup final loss but surely there cames a time we have to stop lingering and look forward. We have a new season approaching with probably players leaving and coming in, let's hope the management and team can move us in the right direction.

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Originally Posted by J-C

I dont think anyone's suggesting fans and players aren't hurting after a cup final loss but surely there cames a time we have to stop lingering and look forward. We have a new season approaching with probably players leaving and coming in, let's hope the management and team can move us in the right direction.

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Exactly. If Hanlon and Stevenson are still mopping about the house i reckon their wives will probably give them a slap and send them to the supermarket for the groceries.

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Originally Posted by Brightside

Exactly. If Hanlon and Stevenson are still mopping about the house i reckon their wives will probably give them a slap and send them to the supermarket for the groceries.

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Most people's wives would be very grateful for them doing the mopping :confused:

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Originally Posted by WeeRussell

Most people's wives would be very grateful for them doing the mopping :confused:

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:faf::faf:

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Originally Posted by WeeRussell

Most people's wives would be very grateful for them doing the mopping :confused:

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Thats very sexist.

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Originally Posted by Brightside

Thats very sexist.

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Nah, just bad spelling.

:wink:

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Originally Posted by jacomo

Nah, just bad spelling.

:wink:

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Always struggled with that. :wink:

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Originally Posted by Brightside

Thats very sexist.

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Not at all. I would have said it the other way round as I’m sure husbands would be grateful too. It was you that said husbands were mopping and being sent to shops.