Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

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Originally Posted by Offside Trap

News re SPL fixtures. Team X to be included. Surely Team Ex would have been better?

http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/r...-fixture-list/

:greengrin

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I think this is significant and will be connected to what that Rangers Tax Case commenter said, posted above.

If the SPL have had legal advice that Green's "The Rangers" is a completely new entity and is not a continuation of "Rangers", then the "Rangers" share in the SPL will have lapsed, leaving the SPL with 11 clubs (Dunfermline having already been relegated). Therefore they have to put "Team X" in the fixture list, because there are only 11 SPL clubs. This then means that the SPL will have to have vote(s) on who to allocate the 12th share to, which will require 11-1 majority as a qualified resolution. Presumably then it would be far more likely for Dundee to get a 11-1 vote passed (no real reason for anyone to object to them) than "The Rangers".

If the legal advice was that "The Rangers" is a continuity of Rangers, then they would have just left Rangers in the fixture list.

Were any of them carrying a bike?

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Originally Posted by HibeeDave

The SPL are complete idiots.

If Rangers do not get into the SPL then Dundee get promoted.
Dundee and Dundee United in the same league will mean the season fixtures need to keep them opposite each other in terms of when Dundee are at home, United are away, the same rule happens to us and hertz and also Celtic and Rangers.
The SPL cannot simply put Team X in as it'll cause chaos if the wrong team turns out to be Team X.

Unless of course it's pre-determined.

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Dundee and Dundee United have quite often played at home on the same weekend in recent years, because the SPL and SFL don't co-operate on fixture lists. They then take it turn about to play at 3pm on the Sunday.

And in order to play in the SPL a club must have a UEFA club licence.

From the SFA's own rules on club licensing;

"3.1.1 The Licence Applicant may only be a football club, that is the legal entity fully responsible for the football team participating in national and international competitions and which is the legal entity member of the Scottish Football Association (Full or Associate Member). The licence applicant is responsible for the fulfillment of the club licensing criteria. This membership must have been in place at the start of the licence season for a minimum period of three consecutive years.

AND

3.3.1 UEFA Licence Awards for Scottish Premier League Clubs (SPL)
A Licence cannot be transferred from one legal entity to another."

AND

as the SFA websit explains http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/football....cfm?page=2570

"National Club Licensing applies to Scottish FA member clubs and UEFA Club Licensing applies to Scottish Premier League clubs."



Rangers set the precedent by going to court over an SFA decision they didnt agree with, in my book they cant complain if Dundee decide to do the same.

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Originally Posted by hibbyfrankie

Not really because this rules state at article:
A2.7 The Board may in its absolute discretion waive, relax or grant a period of grace in respect of any Club's or Candidate Club’s requirement to comply with any part of the Membership Criteria and/or Rules A2.6 and H6.1.

so basically the SPL can do what it likes.

It also states that members must be members of the SFA although then further says membership confers SFA membership. :confused:

SFA membership cant be transferred and to be eligible for membership you need 3 years accounts which newco don't have. So the only way into the SFA is by the SPL.

The whole affair is rather confusing and i wonder how many rules will be bent or interpreted in the hope of performing necromancy.

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Originally Posted by Part/Time Supporter

I think this is significant and will be connected to what that Rangers Tax Case commenter said, posted above.

If the SPL have had legal advice that Green's "The Rangers" is a completely new entity and is not a continuation of "Rangers", then the "Rangers" share in the SPL will have lapsed, leaving the SPL with 11 clubs (Dunfermline having already been relegated). Therefore they have to put "Team X" in the fixture list, because there are only 11 SPL clubs. This then means that the SPL will have to have vote(s) on who to allocate the 12th share to, which will require 11-1 majority as a qualified resolution. Presumably then it would be far more likely for Dundee to get a 11-1 vote passed (no real reason for anyone to object to them) than "The Rangers".

If the legal advice was that "The Rangers" is a continuity of Rangers, then they would have just left Rangers in the fixture list.

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An interesting thing on the SPL website. http://www.scotprem.com/content/defa...2&newsid=11396

Preseason fixtures already announced for each club including....

Rangers
Thursday July 12 - Le Havre (A)
Saturday July 14 - Southampton/Arsenal
(Markus Liebherr Memorial Cup - Southampton)
Friday July 20 - Eintracht Braunschweig (A)
Sunday July 22 - SV Rodinghausen (A)
Wednesday July 25 - Armenia Bielefeld (A)

This is the fixtures of a football club, that according to CG no longer has any players, as they all transferred to The Rangers.

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Originally Posted by Pitlochry hibee

An interesting thing on the SPL website. http://www.scotprem.com/content/defa...2&newsid=11396

Preseason fixtures already announced for each club including....

Rangers
Thursday July 12 - Le Havre (A)
Saturday July 14 - Southampton/Arsenal
(Markus Liebherr Memorial Cup - Southampton)
Friday July 20 - Eintracht Braunschweig (A)
Sunday July 22 - SV Rodinghausen (A)
Wednesday July 25 - Armenia Bielefeld (A)

This is the fixtures of a football club, that according to CG no longer has any players, as they all transferred to The Rangers.

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All of those fixtures were announced before the CVA failed.

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Originally Posted by Part/Time Supporter

Dundee and Dundee United have quite often played at home on the same weekend in recent years, because the SPL and SFL don't co-operate on fixture lists. They then take it turn about to play at 3pm on the Sunday.

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It's just a pity that the "big-wigs" can't use their initiative in such a simple way!! :rolleyes:

The new Chairman saying in press today that as they are a new club they should not be linked with any previous issues or punishments and that we should all just forget about it.

I hope all the SPL Chairmen are getting as pissed off at this behaviour as the rest of us.

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Originally Posted by Andy74

The new Chairman saying in press today that as they are a new club they should not be linked with any previous issues or punishments and that we should all just forget about it.

I hope all the SPL Chairmen are getting as pissed off at this behaviour as the rest of us.

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Do they get the rights to the likes of the club badge etc, surely if its a new club they can't put their self appointed 5 stars etc on things as they haven't won anything?

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Originally Posted by Lungo--Drom

Yesterday, Friday, at 0455 in the morning, I turned off the motorway to get some grub out of Asda Govan. To get back on the M8 you have to then go along Edmiston Drive to the south west corner of Greyskull, then take a right at the roundabout and cut over to the slip road back onto the motorway.

Anyway, at the west end of the Greyskull buildings there were about 25 to 30 guys in what looked like G4S high visibility yellow coats, going in and out doorways carrying stuff and there were at least five unmarked white Ford Transit vans parked near to the building. As I was driving I couldn't see whether they were carrying stuff in or out of the building but so many people at that time in the morning was a bit strange. Anyone any idea what might have been going on?

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G4S have one of their main Scottish offices in Ibrox and would be going about their own work. Doubt there is anything sinister in it. (Unfortunately)

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Originally Posted by Mon Dieu4

Do they get the rights to the likes of the club badge etc, surely if its a new club they can't put their self appointed 5 stars etc on things as they haven't won anything?

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They can't have it both ways - if new club they are a new club - just like FCUM or AFC Wimbledon

New badge - no history - start at the very bottom and that is the juniors not the SFL

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Originally Posted by Mon Dieu4

Do they get the rights to the likes of the club badge etc, surely if its a new club they can't put their self appointed 5 stars etc on things as they haven't won anything?

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I think they will carry on exactly as before. They all seem to have the same club ties. The strip has already been launched and on sale.

They seem to be selling season tickets.

Interesting that as the transfer of assets is said to have taken place we've heard nothing of any players saying no thanks.

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Originally Posted by Andy74

I think they will carry on exactly as before. They all seem to have the same club ties. The strip has already been launched and on sale.

They seem to be selling season tickets.

Interesting that as the transfer of assets is said to have taken place we've heard nothing of any players saying no thanks.

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I don't think they can sign players until they have SFA licence as Newco are not a football club yet.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser1962

And in order to play in the SPL a club must have a UEFA club licence.

From the SFA's own rules on club licensing;

"3.1.1 The Licence Applicant may only be a football club, that is the legal entity fully responsible for the football team participating in national and international competitions and which is the legal entity member of the Scottish Football Association (Full or Associate Member). The licence applicant is responsible for the fulfillment of the club licensing criteria. This membership must have been in place at the start of the licence season for a minimum period of three consecutive years.

AND

3.3.1 UEFA Licence Awards for Scottish Premier League Clubs (SPL)
A Licence cannot be transferred from one legal entity to another."

AND

as the SFA websit explains http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/football....cfm?page=2570

"National Club Licensing applies to Scottish FA member clubs and UEFA Club Licensing applies to Scottish Premier League clubs."



Rangers set the precedent by going to court over an SFA decision they didnt agree with, in my book they cant complain if Dundee decide to do the same.

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So regardless of the financial implications or the arguement for sporting integrity the SPL cannot admit THE Rangers without breaking their own rules.

You're right Kaiser, Dundee should kick up a stink if this is allowed to go ahead. The SPL should not even require a vote on the share transfer. THE Rangers do not meet the SPL entry criteria - its as simple as that.

The more I read / learn about this whole farce the more convinced I am that the only correct action is to throw THE Rangers out and let them meet whatever fate awaits them (applying for SFL 3, surely).

But I wonder where is Doncaster in all this mess?
He's chief of the SPL, right?
The scenario he did not wish to discuss is now reality (RFC to be liquidated) so where is his leadership when his organisation is in disarray?
Surely the SPL administrators were making some contingency plans for such a scenario even if they did not wish to publicly discuss it?

But so far, not a peep. Doncaster, chief administrator, apply-er of rules, is not fit for purpose.

(i know this ain't twiter but this seems appropriate #DoncasterOut)

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Originally Posted by Don Giovanni

So regardless of the financial implications or the arguement for sporting integrity the SPL cannot admit THE Rangers without breaking their own rules.

You're right Kaiser, Dundee should kick up a stink if this is allowed to go ahead. The SPL should not even require a vote on the share transfer. THE Rangers do not meet the SPL entry criteria - its as simple as that.

The more I read / learn about this whole farce the more convinced I am that the only correct action is to throw THE Rangers out and let them meet whatever fate awaits them (applying for SFL 3, surely).

But I wonder where is Doncaster in all this mess?
He's chief of the SPL, right?
The scenario he did not wish to discuss is now reality (RFC to be liquidated) so where is his leadership when his organisation is in disarray?
Surely the SPL administrators were making some contingency plans for such a scenario even if they did not wish to publicly discuss it?

But so far, not a peep. Doncaster, chief administrator, apply-er of rules, is not fit for purpose.

(i know this ain't twiter but this seems appropriate #DoncasterOut)

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From today's BBC Gossip page:

A newco Rangers could be offered a route into the First Division next season as part of a radical overhaul of the Scottish game. (Daily Record)
The Walter Smith-led consortium will launch a takeover bid for the new Rangers in the next 48 hours. (Sun)
Mike McDonald, a business partner of new Rangers chief executive Charles Green, says the Walter Smith-led consortium is just one of three parties to express an interest in buying out the assets of the club. (Daily Mail)

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Originally Posted by Andy74

The new Chairman saying in press today that as they are a new club they should not be linked with any previous issues or punishments and that we should all just forget about it.

I hope all the SPL Chairmen are getting as pissed off at this behaviour as the rest of us.

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I'd agree with him, providing New Huns start life in Division Three. If they expect to pick up where Huns RIP left off in the SPL, then they have accept the punishment that their extinct predecessor would have incurred.

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Originally Posted by ancienthibby

From today's BBC Gossip page:

A newco Rangers could be offered a route into the First Division next season as part of a radical overhaul of the Scottish game. (Daily Record)
The Walter Smith-led consortium will launch a takeover bid for the new Rangers in the next 48 hours. (Sun)
Mike McDonald, a business partner of new Rangers chief executive Charles Green, says the Walter Smith-led consortium is just one of three parties to express an interest in buying out the assets of the club. (Daily Mail)

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That would only be acceptable if they could not be promoted for two seasons. This would achieve the same result as making them start over in Division Three, but without the problems caused by a few thousand New Huns fans turning up at Third Division grounds which couldn't cope.

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Originally Posted by ancienthibby

From today's BBC Gossip page:

A newco Rangers could be offered a route into the First Division next season as part of a radical overhaul of the Scottish game. (Daily Record)
The Walter Smith-led consortium will launch a takeover bid for the new Rangers in the next 48 hours. (Sun)
Mike McDonald, a business partner of new Rangers chief executive Charles Green, says the Walter Smith-led consortium is just one of three parties to express an interest in buying out the assets of the club. (Daily Mail)

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Probably been said before , but if others are now prepared to pay Green substantially more than £5.5m for the assets why the hell did D&P sell it to him for so little ? I thought their principle aim and legal obligation was to get as much as possible value for the CREDITORS? Yet, Greene will pocket a tidy profit for doing nothing. This cannot possibly be legal and, if it is, then D&P has not done their job and should be sued by the creditors for the diff between the the paltry £5.5m and the true market value (i.e. whatever others are prepared to pay now).

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Originally Posted by Eyrie

I'd agree with him, providing New Huns start life in Division Three. If they expect to pick up where Huns RIP left off in the SPL, then they have accept the punishment that their extinct predecessor would have incurred.


That would only be acceptable if they could not be promoted for two seasons. This would achieve the same result as making them start over in Division Three, but without the problems caused by a few thousand New Huns fans turning up at Third Division grounds which couldn't cope.

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If they can only take 500 fans to an away match, so be it.

Why is all the talk of EITHER the SPL or SFL 3??

Surely, as a new football club, formed on Thursday 14 June 2012, they need to apply to join the West of Scotland League first, so they can get their licence. As it stands the Central District Second Div. has 11 clubs, so by admitting The Rangers would even up the Leage structure.

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Originally Posted by Eyrie

I'd agree with him, providing New Huns start life in Division Three. If they expect to pick up where Huns RIP left off in the SPL, then they have accept the punishment that their extinct predecessor would have incurred.


That would only be acceptable if there was a minimum of one and preferably two seasons where they could not be promoted. It would achieve the same result as making them start over in Division Three, but without the problems caused by a few thousand New Huns fans turning up at Third Division grounds which couldn't cope.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser1962

Of course you are correct Cav but it appears, to me at least, that Newhun are applying a mish mash of rules, regulations and laws as they see fit, or as it suits their criteria. While Newhun are applying the Law of the land to their debt situation, they are ignoring it and applying football regulations in other areas, such as their Newhun status with the SPL.

There are a number of anomalies between football's governing bodies rules and regulations and the Law and all clubs sign up to adhere to the rules, laws and decisions of their respective governing bodies. Its about time someone reminded the huns of this and FIFA should get a grip on it or it is danger of runnning away from them.

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That's kinda my point - although I was offering an alternative interpretation rather than arguing the case. Newhun are in a position that they can refuse to accept punishment for the transgressions of Oldhun - they've already shown that they're not above going to the civil courts for a ruling on football matters - so the SPL would be wasting time and money investigating the hidden contracts issue if there's no-one there to take the punishment. They, and the SFA, need to have an acceptance by Newhun of Oldhun's liabilities (moral rather than financial) wrapped up tight before they can continue with the investigation.

I see from Andy74's post that Newhun seem unwilling to accept responsibility, so that should make the SPL's decision for them. No hidden contracts investigation unless they want to charge individuals, the Rangers FC that played in the SPL last season is no longer a football club so there's a vacancy in the SPL for another club. The new Rangers FC do not meet the criteria required for the SPL because they're a brand new company that has yet to play any football, so they should not be considered and other applicants should be considered on their merits.

I bet they don't make it that simple though.

From today's Scotsman:

"(Malcolm) Murray is hopeful, however, and believes that because it is a newco, it should not be punished for old misdemeanours.

“At the moment the biggest issue is what league we’ll play in. I’d much rather we were playing in the SPL.

“I think Rangers have had giant punishments already – a European ban, a ten-point deduction, the emotional trauma everyone has suffered.

“I think for the good of Scottish football it’s much better that Rangers are in the SPL. For everyone’s sake we should forget the sins of a few people in the past and move on.”

Oldco or newco, these lowlifes know no shame. July 2nd could be the date for the SPL newco vote. Bombard Petrie and the board telling him that only a NO vote will mean you return to Easter Road.

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Originally Posted by Caversham Green

That's kinda my point - although I was offering an alternative interpretation rather than arguing the case. Newhun are in a position that they can refuse to accept punishment for the transgressions of Oldhun - they've already shown that they're not above going to the civil courts for a ruling on football matters - so the SPL would be wasting time and money investigating the hidden contracts issue if there's no-one there to take the punishment. They, and the SFA, need to have an acceptance by Newhun of Oldhun's liabilities (moral rather than financial) wrapped up tight before they can continue with the investigation.

I see from Andy74's post that Newhun seem unwilling to accept responsibility, so that should make the SPL's decision for them. No hidden contracts investigation unless they want to charge individuals, the Rangers FC that played in the SPL last season is no longer a football club so there's a vacancy in the SPL for another club. The new Rangers FC do not meet the criteria required for the SPL because they're a brand new company that has yet to play any football, so they should not be considered and other applicants should be considered on their merits.

I bet they don't make it that simple though.

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I agree, the spl won't want to waste money on an investigation if they can't do anything with the findings. HMRC look like they want to go after people individually so they will probably pick up the investigation.

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Originally Posted by Onion

Probably been said before , but if others are now prepared to pay Green substantially more than £5.5m for the assets why the hell did D&P sell it to him for so little ? I thought their principle aim and legal obligation was to get as much as possible value for the CREDITORS? Yet, Greene will pocket a tidy profit for doing nothing. This cannot possibly be legal and, if it is, then D&P has not done their job and should be sued by the creditors for the diff between the the paltry £5.5m and the true market value (i.e. whatever others are prepared to pay now).

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Waldo and Co. made no offer for the Club, so D+P cannot be blamed here imho. It's just the old/new Rangers way, happy to plough money into the club, unhappy to use that money to pay for tax debts.

Cheers PH, that solves that question. Another Rangers sell off from the last few years I guess. Wonder how much rent they get although I suppose it just goes towards the stewarding bill. It would be amusing if G4S were moving to new premises...

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Originally Posted by PatHead

G4S have one of their main Scottish offices in Ibrox and would be going about their own work. Doubt there is anything sinister in it. (Unfortunately)

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Originally Posted by Bishop Hibee

From today's Scotsman:

"(Malcolm) Murray is hopeful, however, and believes that because it is a newco, it should not be punished for old misdemeanours.

“At the moment the biggest issue is what league we’ll play in. I’d much rather we were playing in the SPL.

“I think Rangers have had giant punishments already – a European ban, a ten-point deduction, the emotional trauma everyone has suffered.

“I think for the good of Scottish football it’s much better that Rangers are in the SPL. For everyone’s sake we should forget the sins of a few people in the past and move on.”

Oldco or newco, these lowlifes know no shame. July 2nd could be the date for the SPL newco vote. Bombard Petrie and the board telling him that only a NO vote will mean you return to Easter Road.

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Bombard the SFA telling them that THE Rangers, as a new, 2 day old, club, need to be admitted, as all clubs, at the very bottom, in the West of Scotland League Central District Second Div. alongside Royal Albert, Blantyre Vics, Newmains Utd, Rossvale, Wishaw Juniors, Johnstone Burgh, Forth Wanderers, Maryhill, Lesmahagow Juniors and St Roch's.

IMHO of course.

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Originally Posted by Bishop Hibee

From today's Scotsman:

"(Malcolm) Murray is hopeful, however, and believes that because it is a newco, it should not be punished for old misdemeanours.

“At the moment the biggest issue is what league we’ll play in. I’d much rather we were playing in the SPL.

“I think Rangers have had giant punishments already – a European ban, a ten-point deduction, the emotional trauma everyone has suffered.

“I think for the good of Scottish football it’s much better that Rangers are in the SPL. For everyone’s sake we should forget the sins of a few people in the past and move on.”

Oldco or newco, these lowlifes know no shame. July 2nd could be the date for the SPL newco vote. Bombard Petrie and the board telling him that only a NO vote will mean you return to Easter Road.

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Ok MR Murray thats your legal right but now you cant transfer any SPL share.

You cant play in the SPL you don't qualify.

What punishment you don't meet EUFA License criteria it's not a ban. You haven't won any points to be deducted. Your a week old there is no turmoil.

We have moved on as per my previous answers but again you don't qualify for SPL.

IMHO of course :greengrin

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Originally Posted by Onion

Probably been said before , but if others are now prepared to pay Green substantially more than £5.5m for the assets why the hell did D&P sell it to him for so little ? I thought their principle aim and legal obligation was to get as much as possible value for the CREDITORS? Yet, Greene will pocket a tidy profit for doing nothing. This cannot possibly be legal and, if it is, then D&P has not done their job and should be sued by the creditors for the diff between the the paltry £5.5m and the true market value (i.e. whatever others are prepared to pay now).

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I could be wrong but this has puzzled me too, could it be as simple as nobody realising that all the properties where included in the 5.5mil , I'm sure cav said they weren't on the original paperwork.

I really can't see what all the chat is about - they're deed!

The court of session referred back the the appeal lot basically saying if its not in black and white you can't do it. The Scottish Cup punishment has been done to death - its not an option. That leaves suspension for a year or kicked into touch. Mair deed.

Its only the zombiehuns that exist as a 'football' entity. SPL rules and I think SFA rules too, state a Euro licence must be in place or able to be in place for a local licence to be granted. The zombiehuns don't have any accounts, never mind the 3 years that are required - loadsa deed.

Would someone in authority just stand up and ****ing tell them. THEY CANNOT BE IN THE SPL NEXT SEASON.

And if we're lucky, no not lucky. If they get what they deserve never mind about keeping their history, they will be history, they will be banned sine die.

They should make 'The Rangers Football Club' sit down in the Countdown TV studio and ask them, "What do you want, old silverware and stars on shirts and old accountability and consequent punishment OR no accountability or punishment related to the old club and you lose the silverware and the stars on the shirts?" Then they should start the big Countdown clock ticking. They could have Green, McCoist and Jabba Bighoose as the panel to decide an answer. It would make for priceless TV.

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Originally Posted by Matty_Jack04

The longer this drags on the more I think somehow there going to escape this and it stinks

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Of course they're going to escape it. This new born 'love in ' for come-back kid Smith has strengthened their resolve and their attitude now is ' we're putting all the cr@p and bad guys behind us; our and your old pal Watty has ridden into town with the cavalry so let bygones be bygones and welcome us back with open arms.' My fear is that all the weak, greedy and wavering CEO's will fall off the fence on the Rangers's side.