Share Transfers Agreed/Cooling off period

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

He's all over the place with his understanding of the situation.

Like Bajillions says, the shares are frozen.

Also, UBIG owns the shares, but they're not in administration; UKIO Bankas are.

I suspect he has been misquoted or misunderstood by Anderson, because I wouldn't expect Patey to get such basic facts wrong.

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His understanding of the RFC/Sevco comedy has been equally poor.

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Originally Posted by green glory

His understanding of the RFC/Sevco comedy has been equally poor.

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I was going to say the same, but I couldn't remember if it was the same guy.

I deleted my earlier post, because I have re-read the article.

He doesn't actually say that there is no merit in administration. However, if that's what he is implying, then I would agree with him, for the same reasons Cav says.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

I was going to say the same, but I couldn't remember if it was the same guy.

I deleted my earlier post, because I have re-read the article.

He doesn't actually say that there is no merit in administration. However, if that's what he is implying, then I would agree with him, for the same reasons Cav says.

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Having read the article a couple of times an obvious point came to me but not the writer! As expected it will take the administrator time to get to the bottom of all the issues and this will take time, however whilst Hearts may not be one of his priorities I would have thought that it was an obvious quick win as they are so visible amongst all the murky goings on.

Why put it off till later when he can start the ball rolling with pursuing them as their position is quite clear whereas the remainder of the Ukio situation will be murky and not so clear cut

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Originally Posted by Caversham Green

I agree with him - up to a point. I think the only party that would benefit from a successful administration - and it would be in the long term - would be the club itself. The parties that would cause administration to happen would be the owners 'voluntarily'; the administrator of Ukio and HMRC/other creditors. A CVA would almost certainly be rejected because secured creditors don't have a vote and the unsecured creditors would get nothing out of it.

In the case of the owners and Ukio, their debts are secured on the clubs assets and because the debts are greater than the assets all they would be doing is paying an administrator's fees to get some of their money back - they'd be cheaper going straight to liquidation. HMRC are probably the largest unsecured debt as as we know from the Sevco debacle their policy is to oppose CVAs in these circumstances.

The only possible motives for administration might be protection of the directors or to effect a sale to new owners - but the potential new owners seem to be too busy agreeing amongst themselves to do anything relevant.

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Just to add an afterthought to this:

A third possibility for administration would be HMRC if they don't get the £500k that's due sometime this month (or anything else that's due for that matter). It wouldn't benefit them as they would be unlikely to get anything out of it, but they might go for it to invite interested parties to contribute if they want to keep the club alive or to make good the threats that these repayment schemes invariably carry.

PS I haven't seen the article - anyone got a link?

http://oi42.tinypic.com/30wujx3.jpg

Administrators of UB could liquidate HMFC (they have the ground and Romanov’s shares as security against loans to UB and Romanov (UBIG)), sell the stadium to property developers and the club to FOH who would then seek a new ground and re-admission to the league a la Rangers. Certainly, no consortium has the money to buy Tynecastle close to its market value or pay off HMRC. The administrators are trying to fill a $463 million whole in UB and will be not be benevolent. Going into administration I don’t think would halt this process and would be only of use if HMRC did not get paid their next installment and issued a winding up order. This is of course a possible short-term outcome which is why HMFC may be looking to appoint administrators. I think all routes will lead to liquidation. Which is what I predicted for Rangers in February of last year.

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Originally Posted by desantos0773

Administrators of UB could liquidate HMFC (they have the ground and Romanov’s shares as security against loans to UB and Romanov (UBIG)), sell the stadium to property developers and the club to FOH who would then seek a new ground and re-admission to the league a la Rangers. Certainly, no consortium has the money to buy Tynecastle close to its market value or pay off HMRC. The administrators are trying to fill a $463 million whole in UB and will be not be benevolent. Going into administration I don’t think would halt this process and would be only of use if HMRC did not get paid their next installment and issued a winding up order. This is of course a possible short-term outcome which is why HMFC may be looking to appoint administrators. I think all routes will lead to liquidation. Which is what I predicted for Rangers in February of last year.

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Like :greengrin

Here's hoping your mystic meg predictions continue to be spot on.

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Originally Posted by Caversham Green

Just to add an afterthought to this:

A third possibility for administration would be HMRC if they don't get the £500k that's due sometime this month (or anything else that's due for that matter). It wouldn't benefit them as they would be unlikely to get anything out of it, but they might go for it to invite interested parties to contribute if they want to keep the club alive or to make good the threats that these repayment schemes invariably carry.

PS I haven't seen the article - anyone got a link?

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http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-ev...-act-1-2913863

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-ev...-act-1-2913863

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I knew it would finally happen.

Rolland has resorted to taking acid.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

To be fair, there's not a lot for the SPL to go on. Administration hasn't happened yet.

As for the SFA, the only thing they can act on is the (apparent) non-submission of the 2012 accounts. The "fit and proper owner" charge wouldn't stick until "the owner" (presumably you mean Romanov, even although he's not) has actually been convicted of something.

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Would going around telling all and sundry that you are bankrupt, have to dive taxis for a living and your business assets not be enough to question whether someone is fit and proper? I would think fit and proper criteria does not simply mean you don't have to be criminal.

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Originally Posted by PatHead

Would going around telling all and sundry that you are bankrupt, have to dive taxis for a living and your business assets not be enough to question whether someone is fit and proper? I would think fit and proper criteria does not simply mean you don't have to be criminal.

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Under SFA stipulations for Official Return, a fit and proper person ''should not be bankrupt or made any arrangement of composition with his creditors generally'' ............sounds to me, as a non finance person, that Vlad surely ticks this box for being investigated???

Its about ****ing time the appropriate authorities grew a back bone and actually took some serious action against these clowns. For far far too long they have gotten away with murder. The club is a complete joke from top to bottom, it is (along with their big brother huns from govan) the most corrupt and dodgy football club in Britain. Where is the punishment for financial cheating?! Every other club has to cut there cloth, play by the rules, and live within their means yet these clowns splashed out millions they don't have to buy players they could no where near afford in order to get ahead. Absolutely no justice in it at all and its about time that shambles of a club was made to severely pay for it yet every time, the authorities involved let them squirm there way out of things.

Think Hearts are now reaching Black Knight stage in total denial. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jvqhk7YDH9U

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Originally Posted by Platinum Scotty

Under SFA stipulations for Official Return, a fit and proper person ''should not be bankrupt or made any arrangement of composition with his creditors generally'' ............sounds to me, as a non finance person, that Vlad surely ticks this box for being investigated???

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Is he actually bankrupt, though, or just telling people that he is? He wouldn't be the first person to claim that they are, when in fact they're not.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Is he actually bankrupt, though, or just telling people that he is? He wouldn't be the first person to claim that they are, when in fact they're not.

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I assumed it was more in line with the second part, given his companies precarious position at home, but maybe i am just being an optimist here!!

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Originally Posted by PatHead

Would going around telling all and sundry that you are bankrupt, have to dive taxis for a living and your business assets not be enough to question whether someone is fit and proper? I would think fit and proper criteria does not simply mean you don't have to be criminal.

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The thing is though, Romanov is not the owner

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Originally Posted by Platinum Scotty

I assumed it was more in line with the second part, given his companies precarious position at home, but maybe i am just being an optimist here!!

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This is me being pedantic, I know.... but I am putting myself in the SFA's chair (Pontius Pilates to a man sometimes :greengrin). It's not HIS creditors that are coming to an arrangement, but UKIO's. After tomorrow, it may also be UBIG's, but even then that is not HIM.

The counter argument to that is that, again, it's not HIM that own the shares in HMFC, but UBIG. After tomorrow, one might argue that UBIG are not a fit and proper owner.

Let me go and wash my hands......

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Originally Posted by DaveF

Like :greengrin

Here's hoping your mystic meg predictions continue to be spot on.

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Although many have likened my predictions to magic I am a financial analyst who predicted the credit crunch recession, RBS and HBOs going bankrupt and the bail outs of Ireland, Greece, Portugal and Spain

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Originally Posted by desantos0773

Although many have likened my predictions to magic I am a financial analyst who predicted the credit crunch recession, RBS and HBOs going bankrupt and the bail outs of Ireland, Greece, Portugal and Spain

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Are you any good at predicting cup finals? :greengrin

Why were Rangers not stripped of their titles they won while cheating?Are Hearts in the same boat or could they be stripped of the Cup title?

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Originally Posted by desantos0773

Although many have likened my predictions to magic I am a financial analyst who predicted the credit crunch recession, RBS and HBOs going bankrupt and the bail outs of Ireland, Greece, Portugal and Spain

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:aok: Any predictions where I can stick a few bob that will last my retirement before I get my pensions coming in :greengrin

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Originally Posted by desantos0773

Although many have likened my predictions to magic I am a financial analyst who predicted the credit crunch recession, RBS and HBOs going bankrupt and the bail outs of Ireland, Greece, Portugal and Spain

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.......................................and I put all my money in Cyprus to avoid those bad countries you mentioned!:boo hoo:

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

This is me being pedantic, I know.... but I am putting myself in the SFA's chair (Pontius Pilates to a man sometimes :greengrin). It's not HIS creditors that are coming to an arrangement, but UKIO's. After tomorrow, it may also be UBIG's, but even then that is not HIM.

The counter argument to that is that, again, it's not HIM that own the shares in HMFC, but UBIG. After tomorrow, one might argue that UBIG are not a fit and proper owner.

Let me go and wash my hands......

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CWG - thanks for the clarity on this, as i said i am not one who begines to understand all this, so my optimism comes out now and again - will sit back and hope for some damn fine news before too long on their long awaited demise!

Let's clear a few things up as it seems some people don't actually bother reading the thread and just skip to the end hoping to see a post saying "Hearts are deed"

1) Romanov doesn't own Hearts. UBIG does, Romanov is believed to be the majority shareholder in UBIG.

2) Hearts cannot be sold to anyone at this stage as all of UBIG's assets have been frozen. That means no transferring of anything to anyone else.

3) UBIG is not in administration

4) Ukio Bankas is in administration

5) Ukio Bankas holds the security over Tynecastle. This is seperate from UBIG and Hearts.

6) If Hearts or UBIG (not Ukio Bankas) enter administration on or before the 31st of May then Hearts will be deducted 18 points. If it happens after the 31st of May hearts will be deducted 1/3 of whatever they finish this season on.

7) There is no evidence that they Hearts are currently "insolvent"

8) There is nothing for the SPL or the SFA to currently act on.

9) It's unlikely they'll "die" quickly. It will happen, it'll just take time.

10) Hearts are not "too big a team to die".

11) Declaring "1-5, never let them forget" will have no affect on saving them, no matter how often they repeat it.

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Originally Posted by Bajillions

Let's clear a few things up as it seems some people don't actually bother reading the thread and just skip to the end hoping to see a post saying "Hearts are deed"

1) Romanov doesn't own Hearts. UBIG does, Romanov is believed to be the majority shareholder in UBIG.

2) Hearts cannot be sold to anyone at this stage as all of UBIG's assets have been frozen. That means no transferring of anything to anyone else.

3) UBIG is not in administration

4) Ukio Bankas is in administration

5) Ukio Bankas holds the security over Tynecastle. This is seperate from UBIG and Hearts.

6) If Hearts or UBIG (not Ukio Bankas) enter administration on or before the 31st of May then Hearts will be deducted 18 points. If it happens after the 31st of May hearts will be deducted 1/3 of whatever they finish this season on.

7) There is no evidence that they Hearts are currently "insolvent"

8) There is nothing for the SPL or the SFA to currently act on.

9) It's unlikely they'll "die" quickly. It will happen, it'll just take time.

10) Hearts are not "too big a team to die".

11) Declaring "1-5, never let them forget" will have no affect on saving them, no matter how often they repeat it.

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Hearts are certainly technically insolvent and have been for some years. Only the promise of continued financial support from UBIG enabled the accounts to be signed off by the auditors for the past three or four years. That support is not going to come from UBIG now as all activities are frozen even if they have any cash which they don't.

QED Hearts are insolvent.

Guessing that post #11952 was aimed at people such as myself....

for Clarity i have to confess that due to a full time job and a partial social life i have to apologise and admit that i havent managed to read all near 12,000 posts thus far..............i appreciate the difference between the multiple layers of companies and their various financial positions, my simple post was purely to underpin that IF the chap who the various media outlets refer to as the owner, and i appreciate now he seemingly isnt, was in as bad a position that he appears to be in then surely he would have been one that would be worth a second look by the SFA....

I will now go back to the reading, and appreciating the knowledge shared by those with the financial accumen and understanding

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Originally Posted by Bajillions

Let's clear a few things up as it seems some people don't actually bother reading the thread and just skip to the end hoping to see a post saying "Hearts are deed"

1) Romanov doesn't own Hearts. UBIG does, Romanov is believed to be the majority shareholder in UBIG.

2) Hearts cannot be sold to anyone at this stage as all of UBIG's assets have been frozen. That means no transferring of anything to anyone else.

3) UBIG is not in administration

4) Ukio Bankas is in administration

5) Ukio Bankas holds the security over Tynecastle. This is seperate from UBIG and Hearts.

6) If Hearts or UBIG (not Ukio Bankas) enter administration on or before the 31st of May then Hearts will be deducted 18 points. If it happens after the 31st of May hearts will be deducted 1/3 of whatever they finish this season on.

7) There is no evidence that they Hearts are currently "insolvent"

8) There is nothing for the SPL or the SFA to currently act on.

9) It's unlikely they'll "die" quickly. It will happen, it'll just take time.

10) Hearts are not "too big a team to die".

11) Declaring "1-5, never let them forget" will have no affect on saving them, no matter how often they repeat it.

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What about non submission of accounts which were due by 31 March?

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Originally Posted by Platinum Scotty

Guessing that post #11952 was aimed at people such as myself....

for Clarity i have to confess that due to a full time job and a partial social life i have to apologise and admit that i havent managed to read all near 12,000 posts thus far..............i appreciate the difference between the multiple layers of companies and their various financial positions, my simple post was purely to underpin that IF the chap who the various media outlets refer to as the owner, and i appreciate now he seemingly isnt, was in as bad a position that he appears to be in then surely he would have been one that would be worth a second look by the SFA....

I will now go back to the reading, and appreciating the knowledge shared by those with the financial accumen and understanding

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Wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, just thought it would serve as a handy list of points for people to skim over as the thread is as popular now as it has been recently.

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Originally Posted by PatHead

What about non submission of accounts which were due by 31 March?

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They may have been submitted to the SPL. They haven't been submitted to companies house.

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Originally Posted by jgl07

Hearts are certainly technically insolvent and have been for some years. Only the promise of continued financial support from UBIG enabled the accounts to be signed off by the auditors for the past three or four years. That support is not going to come from UBIG now as all activities are frozen even if they have any cash which they don't.

QED Hearts are insolvent.

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:agree: The most widely accepted definition of insolvency is being unable to pay debts when they fall due. £22m of HoMFC's debts fell due between August and December 2011. We're now in May 2013 and those debts still haven't been paid.

They haven't suffered an insolvency event yet, thanks to the indulgence of their main creditor, but they are without a doubt insolvent.

Nice handy summary. :greengrin

Obviously us pedantic ****ers need to get in about it though ... :wink:

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Originally Posted by Bajillions

4) Ukio Bankas is in administration

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... and the "bad bits", ie. the bits that didn't get transferred over to Siauliu Bankas are up in Lithuanian court tomorrow facing bankruptcy proceedings.

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5) Ukio Bankas holds the security over Tynecastle. This is seperate from UBIG and Hearts.

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Well sort of, HMFC owes tons to UBIG and Tiny was held as security. UBIG owes even more tons to UKIO and transferred the security in an attempt to shore up the bank's bad debt position. That went well. :rolleyes:

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6) If Hearts or UBIG (not Ukio Bankas) enter administration on or before the 31st of May then Hearts will be deducted 18 points. If it happens after the 31st of May hearts will be deducted 1/3 of whatever they finish this season on.

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... or 15 points, whichever is higher.

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8) There is nothing for the SPL or the SFA to currently act on.

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... and they are desperate for it to stay that way. The SPL has already lost the OF derby, they will not want to lose ours as well. The SFA showed last year with its "Hun at all costs" strategy that the bottom line is far more important to Stewart Regan's CV then any attempt at actual governance. Outside of Dundee FC, there will be nobody in an official position in Scottish football that wants to see them get what's coming to them.