Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

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Originally Posted by malcolm

Publication of fabled advice?

While I am not suggesting they sought a legal view down the pub (or the lodge:wink:) you get what you pay for is a rule in most affairs of life. We don't know the question that any lawyers were asked to opine on othe context in which it was asked.

If you pay for an opinion you might reasonably have an outcome in mind that you favour and you may be testing it for various reasons - for example the likelihood of if being a persuasive enough argument supported by law and precedent for a court to agree. But you may have no wish or intention to go anywhere near a court and are looking for some form of credible support to justify action or inaction.

It may be wrong to place undue credibility on a legal opinion from an unknown party with no clarity on the point of law asked about. :wink: If legal opinions were simply the be all and end all we would not need a civil court system or judges to make decisions.

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Or they just keep asking till someone gives the answer they want?

What then needs to be established is that persons qualification to offer guidance on the subject although this cant be checked because they cant name anyone who gave them said advice. It could have been the guy in the garage for all we know, although the guy in the garage would have known any scheme which loans you money which doesn't have to paid back, and that you don't have to pay tax on as long as don't write anything down, might be a bit dodgy.

"We have taken advice from our Legal Expert, Mr Donald Findlay, and he has advised us that there are no legal grounds on which to strip 'The Glorious Ranjurs' of any titles. He also mentioned something about the Pope and WeeArraPeepul, but that's another matter..."

Boycott Scotland games at hampden.

It would get plenty of publicity around Europe and let the reason behind it made known why it is happening as I'm pretty sure other countries really don't no that our game is being run by corrupt people, FFS, basically comes down to that clubs are feared to upset The Rangers and the corrupt people who allow this to happen also.

Sporting integrity was the cry not that long ago, seems that is not the case now.

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Originally Posted by silverhibee

Boycott Scotland games at hampden.

It would get plenty of publicity around Europe and let the reason behind it made known why it is happening as I'm pretty sure other countries really don't no that our game is being run by corrupt people, FFS, basically comes down to that clubs are feared to upset The Rangers and the corrupt people who allow this to happen also.

Sporting integrity was the cry not that long ago, seems that is not the case now.

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I'll definitely not be watching any SFA teams from now on.


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Originally Posted by brog

We have sought legal advice & regrettably that advice is we do not have the authority to remove league titles & other trophies gained in the period x-y from the team formerly known as Rangers FC. There is no doubt however that as a result of malfeasance on the part of Rangers' management & board, that some of their players were improperly registered at the time these trophies were won. Had that information been available to the governing footballing authorities at that time then Rangers would not have been permitted to play in or would have been expelled from those competitions.

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Or "They cheated but we're letting them away with it."

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Originally Posted by Geo_1875

Or "They cheated but we're letting them away with it."

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So what are they actually known as now is the were 'formally known as rangers'?

While I believe titles should be stripped, I won't be boycotting anything. I'm on record a lot earlier in this thread saying I'd have walked away from Scottish football if Newco had been allowed to re-enter the Premiership and I maintain I would have. Just can't get as worked up this time around.

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Originally Posted by silverhibee

Boycott Scotland games at hampden.

It would get plenty of publicity around Europe and let the reason behind it made known why it is happening as I'm pretty sure other countries really don't no that our game is being run by corrupt people, FFS, basically comes down to that clubs are feared to upset The Rangers and the corrupt people who allow this to happen also.

Sporting integrity was the cry not that long ago, seems that is not the case now.

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They may not know that our game is. But i'm sure they'll know that their own game is.

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Originally Posted by silverhibee

Boycott Scotland games at hampden.

It would get plenty of publicity around Europe and let the reason behind it made known why it is happening as I'm pretty sure other countries really don't no that our game is being run by corrupt people, FFS, basically comes down to that clubs are feared to upset The Rangers and the corrupt people who allow this to happen also.

Sporting integrity was the cry not that long ago, seems that is not the case now.

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No thanks. I enjoy watching Scotland games as do many other Hibbies with all the pain that goes with it.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/1...cy/?ref=twtrec


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I can't possibly see now how there will be another enquiry into stripping Rangers of titles etc when the MD of The Rangers has just been elected onto the SPFL board. It now seems every other team (including Hibs) are now burying their head in the sand and hoping the issue just goes away. It's a pity no one in the media has the ba**s to take on the establishment.

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Originally Posted by Pete70

I can't possibly see now how there will be another enquiry into stripping Rangers of titles etc when the MD of The Rangers has just been elected onto the SPFL board. It now seems every other team (including Hibs) are now burying their head in the sand and hoping the issue just goes away. It's a pity no one in the media has the ba**s to take on the establishment.

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Seems to me that a huge number of fans have been overcome by a wave of apathy also. Standing aside and saying nothing makes them as guilty as the so-called GFA and MSM......

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Originally Posted by HoboHarry

Seems to me that a huge number of fans have overcome by a wave of apathy also. Standing aside and saying nothing makes them as guilty as the so-called GFA and MSM......

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Correct


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For years there was just one guy publishing the truth about corruption in FIFA while the media and our sporting authorities largely ignored it.

Justice had it's day eventually and Sepp Blatter and his mob were taken down.

Tick tock

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Originally Posted by The Falcon

Or they just keep asking till someone gives the answer they want?

What then needs to be established is that persons qualification to offer guidance on the subject although this cant be checked because they cant name anyone who gave them said advice. It could have been the guy in the garage for all we know, although the guy in the garage would have known any scheme which loans you money which doesn't have to paid back, and that you don't have to pay tax on as long as don't write anything down, might be a bit dodgy.

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The annoying thing is ... had the media been doing it's job properly, they would be interviewing a whole string of knowledgable lawyers on the matter - at least giving the public some insight to where the problem might exist. As it is, the west coast media's inaction and silence is deafening as it is shameful.

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Originally Posted by HoboHarry

Seems to me that a huge number of fans have been overcome by a wave of apathy also. Standing aside and saying nothing makes them as guilty as the so-called GFA and MSM......

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Rubbish.

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Originally Posted by ancient hibee

Rubbish.

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In your opinion. There will be plenty who agree with me but don't let that stand in your way......

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Originally Posted by HoboHarry

Seems to me that a huge number of fans have been overcome by a wave of apathy also. Standing aside and saying nothing makes them as guilty as the so-called GFA and MSM......

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[emoji106] The yams can't, not now Mrs Budge has told them what she thinks.

Romanovesque.

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Originally Posted by HoboHarry

In your opinion. There will be plenty who agree with me but don't let that stand in your way......

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Count me in

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Originally Posted by Bostonhibby

[emoji106] The yams can't, not now Mrs Budge has told them what she thinks.

Romanovesque.

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I'm genuinely mystified as to how Budge can cave this soon into her involvement with football. There must be some fearful skeletons in the closet...... Sporting integrity my a**e......

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Originally Posted by HoboHarry

I'm genuinely mystified as to how Budge can cave this soon into her involvement with football. There must be some fearful skeletons in the closet...... Sporting integrity my a**e......

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Tainted trophies?

Less than transparent third party contract payments?

Turkey planning a new year party?



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Originally Posted by HoboHarry

In your opinion. There will be plenty who agree with me but don't let that stand in your way......

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Stand in my way of what exactly?

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Originally Posted by ancient hibee

Stand in my way of what exactly?

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Whatever you want it to be - this will be my last reply to you as you are clearly looking for an argument and you don't seem to care much for a debate. Cheerio :bye:

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/1...cy/?ref=twtrec


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Premeditaded actions from this corrupt little ****er

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/1...cy/?ref=twtrec


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Is the article saying that he took the money from the EBT and ivested it in Eclpse, the tax evasion vehicle? Hilarious if that's what happened.

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Originally Posted by Brunswickbill

Is the article saying that he took the money from the EBT and ivested it in Eclpse, the tax evasion vehicle? Hilarious if that's what happened.

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Absolutely ludicrous if he can get away with this.

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Originally Posted by The Falcon

"Former Rangers star Barry Ferguson transferred luxury mansion into wife's name before bankruptcy" says the herald

Surely it's not that simple? I do know that in order to avoid care charges any transfer has to take place seven years before you need the service, it would seem ludicrous for someone to move their assetts to avaid paying debt?

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In bankruptcy law, I believe the limit is 5 years.

IMO, it's good planning on his part. He (or his advisers) could see the way the wind was blowing in the Eclipse situation. He'd lost a lot of money, and HMRC were on his case (and that of many others).

He'll have to hope that his marriage is rock solid, though :greengrin

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

In bankruptcy law, I believe the limit is 5 years.

IMO, it's good planning on his part. He (or his advisers) could see the way the wind was blowing in the Eclipse situation. He'd lost a lot of money, and HMRC were on his case (and that of many others).

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In essence, there is no punishment whatsoever to be meted out for his crimes.

Yet more evidedence that the law is an Ass.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

In bankruptcy law, I believe the limit is 5 years.

IMO, it's good planning on his part. He (or his advisers) could see the way the wind was blowing in the Eclipse situation. He'd lost a lot of money, and HMRC were on his case (and that of many others).

He'll have to hope that his marriage is rock solid, though :greengrin

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It says five in the article for bankrupcy yet the rule is seven years to avoid your parents home being sold to pay for care charges. Money is obviously more important than people in the eyes of the Law, which we already knew tbh.

That said he transferred ownership shortly before Rangers went into admin which, depending on the timing, may have been a few short months. And then managed to prevent himself going bankrupt till after the supreme court hearing. Spooky or what?

In a divorce situation, not that I would wish that on him, I am pretty sure his lawyers would be arguing quite vociferously that he contributed significantly to the upkeep and maintenace of the property and is due a settlement to reflect this.

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Originally Posted by Keekaboo

In essence, there is no punishment whatsoever to be meted out for his crimes.

Yet more evidedence that the law is an Ass.

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Yip. It's stuff like this that turns people against capitalism.


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Originally Posted by The Falcon

It says five in the article for bankrupcy yet the rule is seven years to avoid your parents home being sold to pay for care charges.

That said he transferred ownership shortly before Rangers went into admin which, depending on the timing, may have been a few short months. And then managed to prevent himself going bankrupt till after the supreme court hearing. Spooky or what?

In a divorce situation, not that I would wish that on him, I am pretty sure his lawyers would be arguing quite vociferously that he contributed significantly to the upkeep and maintenace of the property and is due a settlement to reflect this.

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People are making the (understandable) leap in assuming that this is to do with the EBT situation. It's much more to do with Eclipse.

At the time of the asset transfer, he wouldn't have known that RFC were about to go into admin; much less, he couldn't have known how the EBT case would turn out. Indeed, the legislation that MIGHT trap him for the EBT tax wasn't proposed until this year's Budget, and still isn't law.

This was about shielding him from tax from the Eclipse business. As things turned out, it was one of his better financial decisions. :rolleyes:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFpySYAXoAANA_o.jpg:large

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

In bankruptcy law, I believe the limit is 5 years.

IMO, it's good planning on his part. He (or his advisers) could see the way the wind was blowing in the Eclipse situation. He'd lost a lot of money, and HMRC were on his case (and that of many others).

He'll have to hope that his marriage is rock solid, though :greengrin

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Mrs Ferguson has her hands clamped round his ballbag everywhere he goes now.

Bazza won't be getting any opportunities to play away from home.

For a footballer/ ex-footballer that might be the worst punishment possible.

Full press release here https://spfl.co.uk/news/article/spfl-press-release-84/

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The first possible complaint relates to failure to disclose the full range of payments when players were registered. That complaint was ‘prosecuted’ before the LNS Commission. The decision of the Commission was subject to certain limitations. Principally, it proceeded on the assumption that the EBT scheme was lawful. Secondly, there has been some suggestion that the Commission had an incomplete understanding of the full range of undisclosed payments (though this has not been demonstrated). Notwithstanding these limitations, it is now too late to appeal the decision of the LNS Commission; and, applying the general principle of finality in litigation, it is not possible for the SPFL to bring a new or second complaint in respect of essentially the same matter
Read more at https://spfl.co.uk/news/article/spfl...DRwMwcGmTzK.99

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

People are making the (understandable) leap in assuming that this is to do with the EBT situation. It's much more to do with Eclipse.

At the time of the asset transfer, he wouldn't have known that RFC were about to go into admin; much less, he couldn't have known how the EBT case would turn out. Indeed, the legislation that MIGHT trap him for the EBT tax wasn't proposed until this year's Budget, and still isn't law.

This was about shielding him from tax from the Eclipse business. As things turned out, it was one of his better financial decisions. :rolleyes:

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From the Whyte trial it would appear that those in the know accepted that an admin event was possible, if not probable, and had been pushing water uphill for quite a while. Rangers were being investigated by HMRC and were "obstructive, unhelpful and evasive" in that investigation into Rangers player payments, of which Ferguson was a major beneficiary, and an admin event could have meant that Rangers would lose control over the flow of information. HMRC have been chaing these payments and others , Celtic being one, complied. Rangers did not or could not. It is not hugely speculative to suggest this would have been the source of discussion amongst those it might affect.

I know nothing about Eclipse or the timescale of the "investments". Was this the same one Billy Dodds mentioned when confronted with the payment recieved to leave Rangers and did not question?

That said speculation and assumptions which show Old Rangers and their loyal servants in a less than honest light is something that I, sadly, find quite gratifying. Like reminding Yams that they bumped the Poppy fund.

Facts??? :na na:

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Originally Posted by The Falcon

From the Whyte trial it would appear that those in the know accepted that an admin event was possible, if not probable, and had been pushing water uphill for quite a while. Rangers were being investigated by HMRC and were "obstructive, unhelpful and evasive" in that investigation into Rangers player payments, of which Ferguson was a major beneficiary, and an admin event could have meant that Rangers would lose control over the flow of information. HMRC have been chaing these payments and others , Celtic being one, complied. Rangers did not or could not. It is not hugely speculative to suggest this would have been the source of discussion amongst those it might affect.

I know nothing about Eclipse or the timescale of the "investments". Was this the same one Billy Dodds mentioned when confronted with the payment recieved to leave Rangers and did not question?

That said speculation and assumptions which show Old Rangers and their loyal servants in a less than honest light is something that I, sadly, find quite gratifying. Like reminding Yams that they bumped the Poppy fund.

Facts??? :na na:

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Ferguson likely wouldn't have known about the impending administration. If he did, it would have been a side-issue in his life at the time. The Eclipse issue would have been much more important.

Here's one article that will tell you something about Eclipse:-

https://www.aol.co.uk/money/2016/12/...at-went-wrong/

Hundreds of footballers invested in this. IIRC, Darren Jackson and Denis Viola (BF's agent?) have both been bankrupted as a result.

Why does the SPFL need legal power to determine if Rangers gained an unfair advantage? Surely this is all internal.

Will the SPFL need to take legal advice every time it thinks about enforcing its own rules? Or will they only do it when they've already decided they don't want to enforce them?

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Originally Posted by Michael

Why does the SPFL need legal power to determine if Rangers gained an unfair advantage? Surely this is all internal.

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Because they are a bunch arse-covering cowards.

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Originally Posted by Cilla Black

Will the SPFL need to take legal advice every time it thinks about enforcing its own rules? Or will they only do it when they've already decided they don't want to enforce them?

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They will claim that Deidco won the titles under the SPL rules and the SPFL can't touch them.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Ferguson likely wouldn't have known about the impending administration. If he did, it would have been a side-issue in his life at the time. The Eclipse issue would have been much more important.

Here's one article that will tell you something about Eclipse:-

https://www.aol.co.uk/money/2016/12/...at-went-wrong/

Hundreds of footballers invested in this. IIRC, Darren Jackson and Denis Viola (BF's agent?) have both been bankrupted as a result.

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Wow, that's an absolute stinger. Invest £100k, get hit with £1m tax bill !! No wonder these guys were forced to go bankrupt.

Shame if they got advice on it too.

Reading through the SPFL statement it appears that so long as a club changes owners then no punishment can be handed out for bringing game into disrepute? There are contradictions everywhere in it as well but it will require better legal minds than mine to decipher it all.


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Originally Posted by grunt

Full press release here https://spfl.co.uk/news/article/spfl-press-release-84/

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Covered their combined ***** from 2010 onwards! Complete whitewash and complicit in nature.

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Originally Posted by MrSmith

Covered their combined ***** from 2010 onwards! Complete whitewash and complicit in nature.

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The notice talks about no further action due to a "finality in litgation". I am not a lawyer, although surely there is always scope for an appeal. Disgraceful the way the SPFL are abdicating their duty to foster fairness and justice.

isn't an "independent review" a good idea or am I missing something

Corrupt league, always has been always will be. Every club including ours should be ashamed of themselves for not pursuing this as far as possible.

Actually disgusted by it all. Maybe we should just cheat like **** as well.

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Originally Posted by Hibeesforever

The notice talks about no further action due to a "finality in litgation". I am not a lawyer, although surely there is always scope for an appeal. Disgraceful the way the SPFL are abdicating their duty to foster fairness and justice.

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There must be room for a retrospective appeal/action. This is a scandal that needs those who initiated it to be brought to justice and charged appropriately. I think the only way forward is for fan action now. The SPFL statement goes past title stripping now into the realms of criminality.

Someone said earlier about abdication of responsibility, it is absolutely shameful! We can now be clear that our club were part of it.

The only posibility now of anything being done to strip titles is if Celtc decide to take this further.

Looking forward to hearing what Traceyhibs thinks will be getting discussed at the board meeting on Monday 31st. Looking very like our fans reps on the board are in the loop about as much as any of us.


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Originally Posted by 660

isn't an "independent review" a good idea or am I missing something

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It is, in my book.

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Originally Posted by The Falcon

From the Whyte trial it would appear that those in the know accepted that an admin event was possible, if not probable, and had been pushing water uphill for quite a while. Rangers were being investigated by HMRC and were "obstructive, unhelpful and evasive" in that investigation into Rangers player payments, of which Ferguson was a major beneficiary, and an admin event could have meant that Rangers would lose control over the flow of information. HMRC have been chaing these payments and others , Celtic being one, complied. Rangers did not or could not. It is not hugely speculative to suggest this would have been the source of discussion amongst those it might affect.

I know nothing about Eclipse or the timescale of the "investments". Was this the same one Billy Dodds mentioned when confronted with the payment recieved to leave Rangers and did not question?

That said speculation and assumptions which show Old Rangers and their loyal servants in a less than honest light is something that I, sadly, find quite gratifying. Like reminding Yams that they bumped the Poppy fund.

Facts??? :na na:

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Or - if all we're going to get out of this is an 'Independent Review' then the SPFL should rename it 'The Rangers Review' as it was brought about by their cheating - at least we'd forever have a law that would constantly remind them of their cheating !

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Originally Posted by Keekaboo

The only posibility now of anything being done to strip titles is if Celtc decide to take this further.

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Can Celtic take it further?

Where can they take it?

I'm not sure this slams the door on their face any less than the rest of us.

If Celtic can take this further, why not Hibs?

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Originally Posted by Smartie

Can Celtic take it further?

Where can they take it?

I'm not sure this slams the door on their face any less than the rest of us.

If Celtic can take this further, why not Hibs?

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If it goes further from here it will be the the fans. The clubs won't move on this now.


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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

It is, in my book.

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Only if the scope of the review is wide ranging and it is truly independent. It also needs to have the power to interview any individuals it needs to and proper punishments for those found guilty. People like Murray, Ogilvie, Dickson etc should be banned from football for life.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

If it goes further from here it will be the the fans. The clubs won't move on this now.


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Why would the The fans want to take this further?

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Originally Posted by Deansy

Or - if all we're going to get out of this is an 'Independent Review' then the SPFL should rename it 'The Rangers Review' as it was brought about by their cheating - at least we'd forever have a law that would constantly remind them of their cheating !

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I'd like to think that an independent review will be somewhat broader than just focusing on the disgraceful behaviour at Rangers.
When you have had in the space of a decade 4 Premiership clubs undergo Administration, one of them twice plus a liquidation and that absolute freakshow at Gretna it suggests to me that the League needs to paying greater scrutiny of the Accounts of it's member clubs.

Perhaps a job for CWG:greengrin

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Originally Posted by AndyM_1875

I'd like to think that an independent review will be somewhat broader than just focusing on the disgraceful behaviour at Rangers.
When you have had in the space of a decade 4 Premiership clubs undergo Administration, one of them twice plus a liquidation and that absolute freakshow at Gretna it suggests to me that the League needs to paying greater scrutiny of the Accounts of it's member clubs.

Perhaps a job for CWG:greengrin

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I'm tainted :greengrin

All the legalese in that statement is just to confuse us mere mortals.

I don't think anyone wants sanctions against the club currently plying their trade in the SPFL, but rather, it is a statement of fact that the titles and trophies acquired by the previous incarnation were not won fairly and should be expunged from the records as being null and void as a result of the irregularities in player registration at the time.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

If it goes further from here it will be the the fans. The clubs won't move on this now.


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:agree: ... and Celtc have been every bit as keen* on short termist rule bending and rug sweeping as all the other clubs. :rolleyes:


* if not more so.

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Originally Posted by Golden Fleece

All the legalese in that statement is just to confuse us mere mortals.

I don't think anyone wants sanctions against the club currently plying their trade in the SPFL, but rather, it is a statement of fact that the titles and trophies acquired by the previous incarnation were not won fairly and should be expunged from the records as being null and void as a result of the irregularities in player registration at the time.

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This hits the nail on the head. rules exist to deal with improperly registered players It has been proven that this happened during this time period so apply the rules. It doesn't need lawyers to advise how to go about this.
Apply the rules as has been done to other clubs, but maybe as all fans can see they just don't want to upset the mob from Ibrox.
SFA, SPL, SPFL whatever they want to call themselves I call THEM cheats and cowards. all of them.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...1357232cec.png


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How did Lord Nimmo-Smith manage to keep a straight face when he said Rangers didn't gain any unfair competitive advantage?

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Originally Posted by 660

isn't an "independent review" a good idea or am I missing something

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That will depend on the remit of the review and what assistance the SFA and SPFL are prepared to give it.

The Nimmo-Smith commission was a good idea, but football officials made sure it got the result they wanted. I'd like to know why the dates it examined were selected to exclude the DOS scheme which preceded EBTs, why the assumption was made that the EBT scheme was valid when the legal process was incomplete and why there was no appeal against the ridiculous leniency of the penalty imposed on Rangers.

It's probably correct that any appeal against Nimmo-Smith had to be within a given time so the penalty can't be amended within SFA rules. What I'd like to see is an investigation into whether the DOS scheme broke rules in the same way. I also believe there's a rule that payments to players can't be made by a third party. Now that it's established that the EBTs were wages, could a new charge be brought for infringing that?

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Originally Posted by green is good

How did Lord Nimmo-Smith manage to keep a straight face when he said Rangers didn't gain any unfair competitive advantage?

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All of his focus was on his next scheduled act with the lodge goat.......

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Originally Posted by HoboHarry

All of his focus was on his next scheduled act with the lodge goat.......

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Wonder that the initiation ceremony is like for the goat and do you think they also have to learn the secret handshake?

http://mattleslie74.weebly.com/blog/...t-go-wrong-ann


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

http://mattleslie74.weebly.com/blog/...t-go-wrong-ann

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Possibly the most coherent thing I've ever seen from a yam.

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Originally Posted by Is It On....

Wonder that the initiation ceremony is like for the goat and do you think they also have to learn the secret handshake?

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No it's easy for them. The handshake is based on hoofs

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

http://mattleslie74.weebly.com/blog/...t-go-wrong-ann


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Of course she's changed her tune - at the time she was still relatively 'fresh' in football, naive even. She probably did intend to be the 'new broom that sweeps through the game' right up until the point where (one of her own crew probably ??) pointed out that if Rangers were to be punished for cheating then her own club would undoubtedly be next as a stripped-Hun would definitely embark on the biggest exercise of 'Whitabootery' ever seen !

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

http://mattleslie74.weebly.com/blog/...t-go-wrong-ann


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That is bang on the money..first Milne and now Budgie.. wonder what we will do.

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Originally Posted by Deansy

Of course she's changed her tune - at the time she was still relatively 'fresh' in football, naive even. She probably did intend to be the 'new broom that sweeps through the game' right up until the point where (one of her own crew probably ??) pointed out that if Rangers were to be punished for cheating then her own club would undoubtedly be next as a stripped-Hun would definitely embark on the biggest exercise of 'Whitabootery' ever seen !

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Quite.

Jambos will be no allies in this.

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Originally Posted by Deansy

Of course she's changed her tune - at the time she was still relatively 'fresh' in football, naive even. She probably did intend to be the 'new broom that sweeps through the game' right up until the point where (one of her own crew probably ??) pointed out that if Rangers were to be punished for cheating then her own club would undoubtedly be next as a stripped-Hun would definitely embark on the biggest exercise of 'Whitabootery' ever seen !

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Originally Posted by jacomo

Quite.

Jambos will be no allies in this.

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Disagree. There's no tradition of being kicked out of competitions for stealing from poppy charities, whereas there is a tradition of being kicked out for faulty player registration issues. Although stealing from charities is more reprehensible, the whitabootery argument against the yams is very weak as there's no proof, or at least no proof that we know of, that the yams were guilty of faulty player registration. It's the player registration issues (side letters) that should be the undoing of the Old Thes, not the tax issues. The player registration rules were deliberately circumvented. Punish that rule breaking, just as other clubs have traditionally been punished, but proportionately (ie not a slap on the wrist - they didn't do it for one match, they did it for at least ten years).

I think this will now go to judicial review. It's going to take a lot of money and will cost the SFA and SPFL plenty as well, especially if the fans win as costs are usually awarded.
It was all avoidable as well.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

I think this will now go to judicial review. It's going to take a lot of money and will cost the SFA and SPFL plenty as well, especially if the fans win as costs are usually awarded.
It was all avoidable as well.


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If it does, I will be chucking my donation in when they put the hat round.

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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

If it does, I will be chucking my donation in when they put the hat round.

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Yup me too.

Jim Duffy on Clydefm last night said that the judicial review was a bad idea because it could open a whole can of worms about what other clubs were up to at the time.
Let's hope so, Jim, let's hope so. [emoji23]


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Jim Duffy on Clydefm last night said that the judicial review was a bad idea because it could open a whole can of worms about what other clubs were up to at the time.
Let's hope so, Jim, let's hope so. [emoji23]


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He was DoF or something at Hearts for 10 mins or so wasnt he?

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Originally Posted by Deansy

Of course she's changed her tune - at the time she was still relatively 'fresh' in football, naive even. She probably did intend to be the 'new broom that sweeps through the game' right up until the point where (one of her own crew probably ??) pointed out that if Rangers were to be punished for cheating then her own club would undoubtedly be next as a stripped-Hun would definitely embark on the biggest exercise of 'Whitabootery' ever seen !

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You nailed it.

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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

If it does, I will be chucking my donation in when they put the hat round.

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Originally Posted by MrSmith

Yup me too.

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Thirded :agree:

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Originally Posted by Deansy

Of course she's changed her tune - at the time she was still relatively 'fresh' in football, naive even. She probably did intend to be the 'new broom that sweeps through the game' right up until the point where (one of her own crew probably ??) pointed out that if Rangers were to be punished for cheating then her own club would undoubtedly be next as a stripped-Hun would definitely embark on the biggest exercise of 'Whitabootery' ever seen !

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I don't see how Hearts could get dragged into this mess. Yes they paid out more than they could afford, and used Bosnian pensions to fund it, but the player registrations and declarations of earnings look to have been correct at the time. It is the EBT, and more importantly the "side letters", that is the issue (and what the supreme court was ruling on). By not declaring the EBT, now declared to have been additional earnings, they had not registered players correctly.

There is off course the argument that sporting advantage was gained, but this may prove tricky to prove legally (as per LNS report) and that argument could, potentially, go either way.

I wonder what good any judicial review would do.If it was to examine the actions of the SPL this is an organisation that no longer exists.If it's the SFA they will point to their rule book.The only thing that might come up is whether the rule books were adequate.The one thing that certainly wouldn't be examined is the actions of any particular club.

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Originally Posted by StevieC

I don't see how Hearts could get dragged into this mess. Yes they paid out more than they could afford, and used Bosnian pensions to fund it, but the player registrations and declarations of earnings look to have been correct at the time. It is the EBT, and more importantly the "side letters", that is the issue (and what the supreme court was ruling on). By not declaring the EBT, now declared to have been additional earnings, they had not registered players correctly.

There is off course the argument that sporting advantage was gained, but this may prove tricky to prove legally (as per LNS report) and that argument could, potentially, go either way.

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Vlad did have his own tax-evasion scheme, signing players for Kaunas, registering them in Lithuania then loaning them to Hearts but paying their tax (if he ever even paid it) in Lithuania. When HMRC came after the money he shut up shop and within 6 months they were in admin. The tax was never paid and was included in their debtors list. Dunno how illegal that was but HMRC found it to be so as did the courts after a few hearings.

More worrying for them is if Romanov is allowed to be tried in the Lithuanian courts in his absence. If found guilty then Hearts would be guilty of being funded from the proceeds of criminal activity and, iirc, all results during Vlads tenure would be overturned to 0-3 results. The Lithuanian Govt are attempting to change their law at moment to allow trials in the accused absence.

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Originally Posted by ancient hibee

I wonder what good any judicial review would do.If it was to examine the actions of the SPL this is an organisation that no longer exists.If it's the SFA they will point to their rule book.The only thing that might come up is whether the rule books were adequate.The one thing that certainly wouldn't be examined is the actions of any particular club.

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The SPFL is the SPL with a name change.

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/SC175364

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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

The SPFL is the SPL with a name change.

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/SC175364

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No it's not.The SPFL is an amalgamation of the SPL and the Scottish Football League.It is a different organisation.

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Originally Posted by ancient hibee

No it's not.The SPFL is an amalgamation of the SPL and the Scottish Football League.It is a different organisation.

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Look at the link, "previous company name". The SFL clubs were effectively absorbed into the SPL structure.

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Originally Posted by Kato

Vlad did have his own tax-evasion scheme, signing players for Kaunas, registering them in Lithuania then loaning them to Hearts but paying their tax (if he ever even paid it) in Lithuania. When HMRC came after the money he shut up shop and within 6 months they were in admin. The tax was never paid and was included in their debtors list. Dunno how illegal that was but HMRC found it to be so as did the courts after a few hearings.

More worrying for them is if Romanov is allowed to be tried in the Lithuanian courts in his absence. If found guilty then Hearts would be guilty of being funded from the proceeds of criminal activity and, iirc, all results during Vlads tenure would be overturned to 0-3 results. The Lithuanian Govt are attempting to change their law at moment to allow trials in the accused absence.

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Hearts' tax situation didn't go as far as the Courts. The assessment on them for the Kaunas situation was settled by negotiation (without going to a tribunal) and, according this, no penalties were payable:-

https://www.theguardian.com/football...ute-resolution

As far as we know, they have done nothing illegal. They are "only" guilty of financial stupidity and not paying creditors. It's not a big leap from there to the situation of clubs who spent much more than they could afford, and got into huge debt (us, for example).

That said, that would be irrelevant in the mind of the besieged Hun. The "whitaboutery" defence would be in full cry, and many clubs would have to spend unwelcome amounts of management-time, and possibly money, just to stave that nonsense off.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Hearts' tax situation didn't go as far as the Courts. The assessment on them for the Kaunas situation was settled by negotiation (without going to a tribunal) and, according this, no penalties were payable:-

https://www.theguardian.com/football...ute-resolution

As far as we know, they have done nothing illegal. They are "only" guilty of financial stupidity and not paying creditors. It's not a big leap from there to the situation of clubs who spent much more than they could afford, and got into huge debt (us, for example).

That said, that would be irrelevant in the mind of the besieged Hun. The "whitaboutery" defence would be in full cry, and many clubs would have to spend unwelcome amounts of management-time, and possibly money, just to stave that nonsense off.

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And I doubt Hibs would have anything to worry about. If Hearts have to spend a lot of time accounting for themselves, then all good as far as I'm concerned. [emoji23]


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

And I doubt Hibs would have anything to worry about. If Hearts have to spend a lot of time accounting for themselves, then all good as far as I'm concerned. [emoji23]


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We have enough heat from some of our own about the debt, without worrying about anybody else. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Hearts' tax situation didn't go as far as the Courts. The assessment on them for the Kaunas situation was settled by negotiation (without going to a tribunal) and, according this, no penalties were payable:-

https://www.theguardian.com/football...ute-resolution

As far as we know, they have done nothing illegal. They are "only" guilty of financial stupidity and not paying creditors. It's not a big leap from there to the situation of clubs who spent much more than they could afford, and got into huge debt (us, for example).

That said, that would be irrelevant in the mind of the besieged Hun. The "whitaboutery" defence would be in full cry, and many clubs would have to spend unwelcome amounts of management-time, and possibly money, just to stave that nonsense off.

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How about Vlads special deal to get Skacel to resign in 2011, after he had set a wages ceiling at Hearts. Rudi met Vlad and came back with his own deal.

Later on when Rudi's agent sued him for commission he thought he was due, it was revealed in court Skacel wage on his SFA registered contract was £ 3000/week , one of the lowest at Tynecastle at the time.

The agent was looking for commission on a salary twice that of Skacel's registered salary.

I'd say that one was a slam-dunk if investigated properly.

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Originally Posted by greenginger

How about Vlads special deal to get Skacel to resign in 2011, after he had set a wages ceiling at Hearts. Rudi met Vlad and came back with his own deal.

Later on when Rudi's agent sued him for commission he thought he was due, it was revealed in court Skacel wage on his SFA registered contract was £ 3000/week , one of the lowest at Tynecastle at the time.

The agent was looking for commission on a salary twice that of Skacel's registered salary.

I'd say that one was a slam-dunk if investigated properly.

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That's the sort of stuff I expect to be leaked by the SFA to help their Ibrox friends. [emoji3]


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

That's the sort of stuff I expect to be leaked by the SFA to help their Ibrox friends. [emoji3]


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No no need to go public, a quiet word in the Budge woman's ear got her to toe the line.

Now if only these UBIG files would turn up in Lithuania

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2016/05/11/dundee-united-docked-three-points-for-fielding-two-ineligible-pl/http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2016/05/11/dundee-united-docked-three-points-for-fielding-two-ineligible-pl/

Bit of a difference to the SPL treatment of Dundee Utd when they fielded a couple of ineligible players in a no count end of season game, and Rangers decade of fielding ineligible players.

You can guess who got the points deducted.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Jim Duffy on Clydefm last night said that the judicial review was a bad idea because it could open a whole can of worms about what other clubs were up to at the time.
Let's hope so, Jim, let's hope so. [emoji23]


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Jim Duffy is a tit. Why would exposing other clubs who were cheating be a bad idea.
Some clubs gained massively by spending money they didn't have. If they broke the rules whilst doing so then they should be punished for it.

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Originally Posted by greenginger

No no need to go public, a quiet word in the Budge woman's ear got her to toe the line.

Now if only these UBIG files would turn up in Lithuania

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Or the pesky Russkies extradite Vlad.........

https://thecelticblog.com/2017/07/bl...ped-him-do-it/


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Rod defending Scottish football, here at his best giving a non answer as usual, if you asked Rod the time of day he would answer "it depends on where you are "

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40710728

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

https://thecelticblog.com/2017/07/bl...ped-him-do-it/


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Well I've lost count of the number of Celtc blogs that drone on about their own foresight and superiority instead of getting to the ****ing point.

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Originally Posted by greenpaper55

Rod defending Scottish football, here at his best giving a non answer as usual, if you asked Rod the time of day he would answer "it depends on where you are "

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40710728

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This is from before the spfl statement.

I had hoped Rod was just being non-committal so as not to pre-empt it.

Jeez, some of these Thellick blogs are tedious in the extreme. Zzzzzzz. What a waste of bandwidth and time. Paragraphs upon paragraphs of waffle that can be summed up by many of our posters in one sentence...