The Trans Rights Debate

The greens have expelled 14 members who signed a form saying they believe sex is a biological reality. Surely the is a faith based opinion for the greens. Surely you should be allowed to have an opinion that isn't that controversial.

Regardless the amount of energy time and finance the greens spend on non green issues is baffling. Hopefully someone starts a green party where our dying planet is the priority, it doesn't matter if we are gay straight or trans it's probably the most important issue facing us all

https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,s...-trans-members

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

The greens have expelled 14 members who signed a form saying they believe sex is a biological reality. Surely the is a faith based opinion for the greens. Surely you should be allowed to have an opinion that isn't that controversial.

Regardless the amount of energy time and finance the greens spend on non green issues is baffling. Hopefully someone starts a green party where our dying planet is the priority, it doesn't matter if we are gay straight or trans it's probably the most important issue facing us all

https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,s...-trans-members

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Hopefully those who have been expelled start a breakaway Green Party worthy of the name.

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Originally Posted by marinello59

Hopefully those who have been expelled start a breakaway Green Party worthy of the name.

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Andy Wightman should be leading the party IMO

Trump gets his biggest cheer at his inauguration when he says there are only two genders, male and female.

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Originally Posted by Bishop Hibee

Trump gets his biggest cheer at his inauguration when he says there are only two genders, male and female.

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The hermaphrodite vote is very small!

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Originally Posted by Colr

The hermaphrodite vote is very small!

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The lgbtq population of the USA is 7.9%. Not an insignificant number of voters.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

The lgbtq population of the USA is 7.9%. Not an insignificant number of voters.

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On the trans issue that’s not a unified voting block. I would advise any political party anywhere to stay well clear of the issue full stop.


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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

The lgbtq population of the USA is 7.9%. Not an insignificant number of voters.

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The trans identifying group probably amounts to around a fraction of a %. There is no way there is any unanimity amongst lesbian, gay, bisexual people on the militant misguided trans agenda. There isn't even agreement amongst those who identify as trans (based on conversation with family member who has undergone surgical procedure).

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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

The trans identifying group probably amounts to around a fraction of a %. There is no way there is any unanimity amongst lesbian, gay, bisexual people on the militant misguided trans agenda. There isn't even agreement amongst those who identify as trans (based on conversation with family member who has undergone surgical procedure).

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Sure I read it’s about 0.2%.

How about we take a leaf out of Bill and Teds Excellent Adventure.

Where we just need to “Be Excellent to each other”.

Simple. If someone identifies as a woman but was born male. Sure.

If someone is a woman and born a woman, fine too.

Be Excellent to each other. Everyone has their race to run in life, and it’s their race.

J

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Originally Posted by Bristolhibby

How about we take a leaf out of Bill and Teds Excellent Adventure.

Where we just need to “Be Excellent to each other”.

Simple. If someone identifies as a woman but was born male. Sure.

If someone is a woman and born a woman, fine too.

Be Excellent to each other. Everyone has their race to run in life, and it’s their race.

J

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I definitely wouldn’t disagree with the sentiment here but it’s easy to be simplistic on the outside of it looking in and it’s hard to find a comfortable, reasonable middle ground where you can be excellent to everyone. When the flashpoints come round you have to pick a side and an opinion. For example - should a woman using a changing room for women be forced to be excellent to someone she considers to be a man, even though that man identifies as a woman and wants to use the same changing room as her? Should a female sportsperson be excellent to someone who went through puberty as a man then wiped the floor with her in a sporting competition?

My opinion goes back and forward on this and I wish it were black and white, where good guys could be excellent to each other and bad guys be intolerant dicks.

It’s a great way to live your life btw and to be applauded.

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Originally Posted by Smartie

I definitely wouldn’t disagree with the sentiment here but it’s easy to be simplistic on the outside of it looking in and it’s hard to find a comfortable, reasonable middle ground where you can be excellent to everyone. When the flashpoints come round you have to pick a side and an opinion. For example - should a woman using a changing room for women be forced to be excellent to someone she considers to be a man, even though that man identifies as a woman and wants to use the same changing room as her? Should a female sportsperson be excellent to someone who went through puberty as a man then wiped the floor with her in a sporting competition?

My opinion goes back and forward on this and I wish it were black and white, where good guys could be excellent to each other and bad guys be intolerant dicks.

It’s a great way to live your life btw and to be applauded.

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Have any women with penises been in woman changing rooms with their wang out.

It’s an often used trope, but not one that my wife, her friends or any of the hundreds of school girls that she teaches have come across.

J

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Originally Posted by Bristolhibby

Have any women with penises been in woman changing rooms with their wang out.

It’s an often used trope, but not one that my wife, her friends or any of the hundreds of school girls that she teaches have come across.

J

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Funnily enough I had a similar conversation this morning with a colleague. Apparently we need someone like Trump because they’re teaching our kids in schools to be trans.

When I asked what schools are doing that as none of the teachers I know teach that there’s obviously no coherent answer comes back.

Comes back to what some of us were discussing on another thread. You don’t need to have facts to back up your opinion. You just need a made up story that suits the narrative. If that story is false, who cares, it still backs you up.

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Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Funnily enough I had a similar conversation this morning with a colleague. Apparently we need someone like Trump because they’re teaching our kids in schools to be trans.

When I asked what schools are doing that as none of the teachers I know teach that there’s obviously no coherent answer comes back.

Comes back to what some of us were discussing on another thread. You don’t need to have facts to back up your opinion. You just need a made up story that suits the narrative. If that story is false, who cares, it still backs you up.

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There's echoes of the Section 28 debate here. Back then, "they're teaching our kids to be gay" was an oft-heard expression. Nuts, of course.

What kids were being taught, and presumably continue to be taught, is how to be respectful of "difference". No problem in that.

As an aside, this latest attempt by Trump to further marginalise the Trans community has got f all to do with his desire to support and protect women's rights, no matter what his fans might say. Were that the case, he wouldn't be looking to extend the anti-abortion legislation.

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Originally Posted by Bristolhibby

Have any women with penises been in woman changing rooms with their wang out.

It’s an often used trope, but not one that my wife, her friends or any of the hundreds of school girls that she teaches have come across.

J

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Yes, and worse. Remember when some politicians claimed nobody would pretend to be a woman to take advantage of women and girls?

"Andrew Miller, who abducted a primary school pupil while dressed as a woman before sexually assaulting the girl repeatedly over more than 24 hours, has been jailed for 20 years"

https://news.sky.com/story/andrew-miller-jailed-for-20-years-for-abducting-and-sexually-assaulting-girl-in-scottish-borders-12983829

"He added that Miller being dressed as a woman was an aggravating factor as he doubted that the girl would have gotten into the car if Miller had presented as a man"

This was in the Scottish Borders a few years ago.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

There's echoes of the Section 28 debate here. Back then, "they're teaching our kids to be gay" was an oft-heard expression. Nuts, of course.

What kids were being taught, and presumably continue to be taught, is how to be respectful of "difference". No problem in that.

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Yup. And on top of that, I still remember being taught about transsexuals at school in sex education. It’s not a new ‘woke’ thing that’s been introduced and my colleague would have been taught the same as they’re a couple years younger than me. It’s been ‘taught’ for decades. They may well be discussing it using more modern terminology, but the teachings will almost certainly be much the same as what my generation learned.

Their concern is likely the nonsensical idea that kids will decide to become trans off the back of these teachings, much like your example where people were concerned kids were going to be taught to be gay. I remember as part of sex education we had a man who was HIV+ come in to give us a talk on HIV. It didn’t make me want to be HIV+, much like sex education didn’t make me want to be gay or trans.

Of course being ‘taught’ to be gay or trans is absolutely not how it works, but you’re never going to get through to these people.

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Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Yup. And on top of that, I still remember being taught about transsexuals at school in sex education. It’s not a new ‘woke’ thing that’s been introduced and my colleague would have been taught the same as they’re a couple years younger than me. It’s been ‘taught’ for decades. They may well be discussing it using more modern terminology, but the teachings will almost certainly be much the same as what my generation learned.

Their concern is likely the nonsensical idea that kids will decide to become trans off the back of these teachings, much like your example where people were concerned kids were going to be taught to be gay. I remember as part of sex education we had a man who was HIV+ come in to give us a talk on HIV. It didn’t make me want to be HIV+, much like sex education didn’t make me want to be gay or trans.

Of course being ‘taught’ to be gay or trans is absolutely not how it works, but you’re never going to get through to these people.

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Excellent memory. I was part of that team all those years ago. We started out with a remit around HIV, safe sex and STI's, but it grew into a much wider discussion. The guy who had HIV was a brave man, putting his head above the parapet.

There was some opposition to the work of the sexual health team in the mid 1990's, including the crap about promoting homosexuality. As if I, a straight man, knew how to do that or would have had any interest in doing so. We did promote the idea that families could be made up of many diverse elements and that how people expressed themselves through sexuality and identity was a matter of individual choice and that diversity and choices should be respected

I was always touched by the feed back forms we got afterwards. Demographics were a factor, young people in certain schools were much more likely to have had families affected by HIV and would often thank us for speaking up, reducing stigma and helping to educate the ill-informed.

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

Yes, and worse. Remember when some politicians claimed nobody would pretend to be a woman to take advantage of women and girls?

"Andrew Miller, who abducted a primary school pupil while dressed as a woman before sexually assaulting the girl repeatedly over more than 24 hours, has been jailed for 20 years"

https://news.sky.com/story/andrew-mi...rders-12983829

"He added that Miller being dressed as a woman was an aggravating factor as he doubted that the girl would have gotten into the car if Miller had presented as a man"

This was in the Scottish Borders a few years ago.

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Men, eh.

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I realise it's not popular with many, but my personal opinion is that... aside from a minute number of people born with mixed/confusing genitalia... there are only two sexes, and it's fairly simple to distinguish between the two.

However, I know people that self identify differently to their physical gender and my personal view is to live and let live. If that's what makes them happy then fair enough.

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Originally Posted by Keith_M

I realise it's not popular with many, but my personal opinion is that... aside from a minute number of people born with mixed/confusing genitalia... there are only two sexes, and it's fairly simple to distinguish between the two.

However, I know people that self identify differently to their physical gender and my personal view is to live and let live. If that's what makes them happy then fair enough.

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I take it you were never in Berghain whilst in Berlin. :greengrin

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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

I take it you were never in Berghain whilst in Berlin. :greengrin

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Niemals!


I leave that sort of thing to my bother in law, Tommy the Commy


:greengrin

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Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Their concern is likely the nonsensical idea that kids will decide to become trans off the back of these teachings, much like your example where people were concerned kids were going to be taught to be gay. I remember as part of sex education we had a man who was HIV+ come in to give us a talk on HIV. It didn’t make me want to be HIV+, much like sex education didn’t make me want to be gay or trans.

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I need to challenge that a bit. The concern is teaching kids that it is possible to change sex and that there is an innate gender identity in everyone, unrelated to thier biological sex.

There is no evidence for that, and if that is to be taught in any classroom, it should be RE, because it's purely philosophical. When we start treating it as scientific fact, then there's a risk you can end up medicalising gender non conforming kids. In that respect it can be as much about how adults respond to the kids as it is the kids themselves.

Personally, I don’t believe anybody is ‘born in the wrong body’ and I believe sex is observed at birth not assigned. I’ve nothing against folk being androgynous. My mates daughter identifies as non- binary and changed her name to a gender neutral one. Chatted away to her at ER last week. I just don’t believe anybody man becomes a woman by declaring it or visa-versa.

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Originally Posted by 500miles

I need to challenge that a bit. The concern is teaching kids that it is possible to change sex and that there is an innate gender identity in everyone, unrelated to thier biological sex.

There is no evidence for that, and if that is to be taught in any classroom, it should be RE, because it's purely philosophical. When we start treating it as scientific fact, then there's a risk you can end up medicalising gender non conforming kids. In that respect it can be as much about how adults respond to the kids as it is the kids themselves.

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If only RE could be changed to Philosophy.

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Originally Posted by Colr

If only RE could be changed to Philosophy.

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It is I think.
Pretty sure it’s called RMPS these days. Religious, Moral and Philosophical studies. My eldest did it through to higher.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

It is I think.
Pretty sure it’s called RMPS these days. Religious, Moral and Philosophical studies. My eldest did it through to higher.


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In England, Gove rode back the philosophy part in favour of religion. At primary level its ALL religion - shouldn’t be

I find this subject really difficult. It doesn't bother me what anyone calls themselves in terms of gender and I hope I would treat everyone equally assuming what they are doing is not harming anyone else. I do have women friends who are concerned about genetic men playing contact sport such as Rugby against their daughters but on the flip side I know Scottish International Women Rugby players who are hugely supportive of the other side of the argument. The simple truth is I don't know enough to really hold a strong opinion in terms of the topic and it doesn't really impact me in any way and is way down my list of things the world needs to deal with.

I do hold a strong opinion in term of the bandwidth and influence the topic is having. For example, I attend a trade union conference every year. Last year the conference, which is supposed to represent 200K members in a members led union, talked more about Trans issues than it did about pay and conditions. I have no issue that these topics are debated but they have simply taken over the left and trade unionism and as we all fight about Trans issues v Women's rights the employers sit back and watch. I think the same could be argued for the more progressive political parties who have been derailed by this issue and the far right have accepted the opportunity with open arms. There are so many problems in society that effect the vast majority of us and I would far rather stand shoulder to shoulder with all types of working people facing these universal issues which if solved may well remove much of the hate and intolerance that trans people are facing.

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Originally Posted by wookie70

I find this subject really difficult. It doesn't bother me what anyone calls themselves in terms of gender and I hope I would treat everyone equally assuming what they are doing is not harming anyone else. I do have women friends who are concerned about genetic men playing contact sport such as Rugby against their daughters but on the flip side I know Scottish International Women Rugby players who are hugely supportive of the other side of the argument. The simple truth is I don't know enough to really hold a strong opinion in terms of the topic and it doesn't really impact me in any way and is way down my list of things the world needs to deal with.

I do hold a strong opinion in term of the bandwidth and influence the topic is having. For example, I attend a trade union conference every year. Last year the conference, which is supposed to represent 200K members in a members led union, talked more about Trans issues than it did about pay and conditions. I have no issue that these topics are debated but they have simply taken over the left and trade unionism and as we all fight about Trans issues v Women's rights the employers sit back and watch. I think the same could be argued for the more progressive political parties who have been derailed by this issue and the far right have accepted the opportunity with open arms. There are so many problems in society that effect the vast majority of us and I would far rather stand shoulder to shoulder with all types of working people facing these universal issues which if solved may well remove much of the hate and intolerance that trans people are facing.

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Quite. It all adds up to the “Let the Left eat itself” that the right are inherently designed not to do.

Even if you break it down to pure extreme right (one leader, one party) vs extreme Left, many people represented by many bodies and sub committees, all equal, all rise ring of a voice.

I often hark back to the Spanish Civil war. The Nationalists could gather round Franco, one supreme leader restoring the aristocracy and church. The left meanwhile was split into Communists (backed by Russia), Anarchists, Syndicasts, Socialists, democrats, anti Monarchy, anti Church, land reformers, atheists.

In the end they were not united enough and vying for power amongst themselves. The Right won, and stayed in power until the 1970s.

The SNP and Independence movement in general needs to been the same way. Unite round one message. The time for squabbling comes post independence. Then everyone can have a democratic go at government.

But for now, Trans Issues for example seem to be something that progressive / left leaning parties and governments tie themselves in knots while the opposition / conservatives sit back and rub their hands. It’s almost an unsolvable riddle. That I agree, takes up too much air time and plays into the hands of the right.

J

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Originally Posted by wookie70

I find this subject really difficult. It doesn't bother me what anyone calls themselves in terms of gender and I hope I would treat everyone equally assuming what they are doing is not harming anyone else. I do have women friends who are concerned about genetic men playing contact sport such as Rugby against their daughters but on the flip side I know Scottish International Women Rugby players who are hugely supportive of the other side of the argument. The simple truth is I don't know enough to really hold a strong opinion in terms of the topic and it doesn't really impact me in any way and is way down my list of things the world needs to deal with.

I do hold a strong opinion in term of the bandwidth and influence the topic is having. For example, I attend a trade union conference every year. Last year the conference, which is supposed to represent 200K members in a members led union, talked more about Trans issues than it did about pay and conditions. I have no issue that these topics are debated but they have simply taken over the left and trade unionism and as we all fight about Trans issues v Women's rights the employers sit back and watch. I think the same could be argued for the more progressive political parties who have been derailed by this issue and the far right have accepted the opportunity with open arms. There are so many problems in society that effect the vast majority of us and I would far rather stand shoulder to shoulder with all types of working people facing these universal issues which if solved may well remove much of the hate and intolerance that trans people are facing.

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The "Left" can't discuss economics as they have conceded that ground to neolibariĺsim which by its very nature is designed to be anti-civic, anti-municipal, anti-organised workforces and anti-"rights".

Blair thought he could put a sticking plaster on it but you can't as the next lot rip it off.

The conversations on the "left" therefore centre around civil "movements" and minority concerns. The right know this and tie the left in knots needling them being anti those minority concerns. So the conversation becomes mired.


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Originally Posted by Bristolhibby

Quite. It all adds up to the “Let the Left eat itself” that the right are inherently designed not to do.

Even if you break it down to pure extreme right (one leader, one party) vs extreme Left, many people represented by many bodies and sub committees, all equal, all rise ring of a voice.

I often hark back to the Spanish Civil war. The Nationalists could gather round Franco, one supreme leader restoring the aristocracy and church. The left meanwhile was split into Communists (backed by Russia), Anarchists, Syndicasts, Socialists, democrats, anti Monarchy, anti Church, land reformers, atheists.

In the end they were not united enough and vying for power amongst themselves. The Right won, and stayed in power until the 1970s.

The SNP and Independence movement in general needs to been the same way. Unite round one message. The time for squabbling comes post independence. Then everyone can have a democratic go at government.

But for now, Trans Issues for example seem to be something that progressive / left leaning parties and governments tie themselves in knots while the opposition / conservatives sit back and rub their hands. It’s almost an unsolvable riddle. That I agree, takes up too much air time and plays into the hands of the right.

J

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I wouldn’t underestimate the importance of the support Franco got from Hitler and Mussolini in Spanish civil war while Britain and France stood by.

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Originally Posted by Kato

The "Left" can't discuss economics as they have conceded that ground to neolibariĺsim which by its very nature is designed to be anti-civic, anti-municipal, anti-organised workforces and anti-"rights".

Blair thought he could put a sticking plaster on it but you can't as the next lot rip it off.

The conversations on the "left" therefore centre around civil "movements" and minority concerns. The right know this and tie the left in knots needling them being anti those minority concerns. So the conversation becomes mired.


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Blair delivered peace in Northern Ireland, a minimum wage, working tax credits (I think ) and Scottish and Welsh Parliament, all still fully functioning. There were significant economic strategies too, although not all of them worked that well.

If a government has a mandate then surely an elected left would have the opportunity to bring about radical change. Corbyn put an alternative to the people and 1st time round, he came close to convincing them, despite the massive opposition from vested interests.

It took the Tories 30 year before they started dismantling the reforms made by the 1st majority Labour government. Perhaps times have changed but the grip of neoliberalism on political power is exaggerated, maybe they want us to believe that there is no scope for any radicalism?

Is it wrong for me to say I don't know what I think on this topic? I could post at length today about it then read something else tomorrow that swings me the other way. Even experts in the field seem unable to form any broad consensus on the subject.

I find people who can reduce it to 'trans women are women' or 'there are only two genders' with no scope for movement at all baffling tbh. It seems way too complex for 'stop the boats' style sloganeering. Maybe I'm just a bit thick and it really is that simple but I'm not convinced (on the simplicity part, I make no comment on my own intelligence or lack thereof).

I see Trump has kicked the trannies out of the US army.

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Originally Posted by Colr

I see Trump has kicked the trannies out of the US army.

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Trump has also kicked the trannies out of female only prisons, this was probably to prevent any repeat of what happened in the New Jersey prison when two inmates were impregnated by a fellow prisoner.

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Originally Posted by Bristolhibby

Have any women with penises been in woman changing rooms with their wang out.

It’s an often used trope, but not one that my wife, her friends or any of the hundreds of school girls that she teaches have come across.

J

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Another example:

https://telegraph.co.uk/gift/f1fb9edc8aec10a9

"A transgender NHS doctor who got changed in front of women colleagues has claimed to be a biological female.

Dr Beth Upton, who was born male and now identifies as a woman, stated in evidence to an employment tribunal “I’m biologically female” and said that sex had “no defined or agreed meaning in science”.

General question not directed at you in particular but how can a man claim to be a biological female?

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

Another example:

https://telegraph.co.uk/gift/f1fb9edc8aec10a9

"A transgender NHS doctor who got changed in front of women colleagues has claimed to be a biological female.

Dr Beth Upton, who was born male and now identifies as a woman, stated in evidence to an employment tribunal “I’m biologically female” and said that sex had “no defined or agreed meaning in science”.

General question not directed at you in particular but how can a man claim to be a biological female?

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Lewis Carroll had this one covered:

“When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’

’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’

’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.”

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

Another example:

https://telegraph.co.uk/gift/f1fb9edc8aec10a9

"A transgender NHS doctor who got changed in front of women colleagues has claimed to be a biological female.

Dr Beth Upton, who was born male and now identifies as a woman, stated in evidence to an employment tribunal “I’m biologically female” and said that sex had “no defined or agreed meaning in science”.

General question not directed at you in particular but how can a man claim to be a biological female?

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The big difference in this case is that the doctor doesn't have a *****. She has gone through transition AFAIK.

That case is ongoing, but a question I would have asked the nurse is "would you feel threatened if a gay woman got undressed beside you?".

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

The big difference in this case is that the doctor doesn't have a *****. She has gone through transition AFAIK.

That case is ongoing, but a question I would have asked the nurse is "would you feel threatened if a gay woman got undressed beside you?".

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And if she said no I wouldn't because that's not a man...?

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

And if she said no I wouldn't because that's not a man...?

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I'd just like to hear her answer. No speculation.

It's key to the whole case, I would have thought, for both sides of the argument.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

I'd just like to hear her answer. No speculation.

It's key to the whole case, I would have thought, for both sides of the argument.

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I am guessing she has over many years of being a female nurse changed next to many gay females so without knowing for definite then I would suggest she is fine with that, but not fine getting changed and watching a man get changed next to her.

There is no history or her having issues changing next to females.

She complained and then got suspended and then the NHS Fife Board tried to have the tribunal heard in secret.

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

I am guessing she has over many years of being a female nurse changed next to many gay female so without knowing for definite then I would suggest she is fine with that, but not fine getting changed and watching a man get changed next to her.

She complained and then got suspended and then the NHS Fife Board tried to have the tribunal heard in secret.

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Like I say :wink:

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Like I say :wink:

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I think you are clutching at straws there but fair enough. Having been a nurse for over 30 years it's a pretty strong assumption to suggest she doesn't have an issue with gay females changing with her. I am also sure if she did it would be relevant for this case and it isn't referred to anywhere.

But if she did say she had no problems with that what do you think?

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

I think you are clutching at straws there but fair enough. Having been a nurse for over 30 years it's a pretty strong assumption to suggest she doesn't have an issue with gay females changing with her.

But if she did say she had no problems with that what do you think?

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I'm not sure what you mean by clutching at straws.

I'd just like to hear her answer.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

I'm not sure what you mean by clutching at straws.

I'd just like to hear her answer.

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Well I am saying after 30 years of being a nurse and no history of having issues of changing next to gay females then she doesn't have a problem with it.

I was asking what your answer was if she said no she doesn't have a problem? You did say you would ask her and I am asking what your response would be if she answered your question and said she was fine with it.

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

Well I am saying after 30 years of being a nurse and no history of having issues of changing next to gay females then she doesn't have a problem with it.

I was asking what your answer was if she said no she doesn't have a problem?

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You're guessing that part, though, no?

I'm not going to speculate.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

The big difference in this case is that the doctor doesn't have a *****. She has gone through transition AFAIK.

That case is ongoing, but a question I would have asked the nurse is "would you feel threatened if a gay woman got undressed beside you?".

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She is pre-op the incident only happened 14 months after she decided to live as a female, so too early to get a GRC in Scotland which is given after living as a female for 2 years.

Over 99% of sexual assaults are committed by males so the lesbian comparison doesn't work imo. It isn't that trans are more likely to assault females, it's women should have spaces away from biological males.

Turning one toilet small toilet in a hospital into a single gender neutral changing room would sort this

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

You're guessing that part, though, no?

I'm not going to speculate.

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You did say you would ask her that question though. I was merely asking if she said she didn't have a problem changing next to gay females what your response to the question you wanted to ask would be?

Seeing as she has been a female nurse and will have been getting changed next to many many gay women over 3 decades of nursing without any history of having a problem with it I think it's very clear she didn't have a problem with it. But that's nothing to do with the case that is being heard, it's kind of meaningless so why would you have wanted to ask her?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

She is pre-op the incident only happened 14 months after she decided to live as a female, so too early to get a GRC in Scotland which is given after living as a female for 2 years.

Over 99% of sexual assaults are committed by males so the lesbian comparison doesn't work imo. It isn't that trans are more likely to assault females, it's women should have spaces away from biological males.

Turning one toilet small toilet in a hospital into a single gender neutral changing room would sort this

---

Thanks for clarifying .

Re this Kirkcaldy nurse/Dr story, I don't know if it's a true representation of factual happenings or a twist by the various media outlets, but the nurse seems to come across as bullying/spoiling for a fight. The trans Dr seems to have tried their best to not provoke the situation.
I also find it strange that no other colleagues have came forward with the complainant (although she was well supported when she arrived at the tribunal last week).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gx07xdpw5o

The issue I have in this case is the nurse seems like a thoroughly disagreeable individual.

I accept that doesn't really matter if her argument is valid; which it may be, I'm not a woman so I'm not going to speak on her behalf, there is enough of that goes on in this debate and beyond.

Her general conduct around the situation seems tactless at best though and some of her beliefs around other issues that have been touched upon during the tribunal mean she will likely do her cause more harm than good regardless of the outcome. I've always found myself leaning towards believing there has to be certain lines in the sand around safe, or rather private, spaces for women. I remember being utterly appalled when I saw someone on here suggest a rape victim who objected to dealing with a counsellor who was born biologically male should be 'reeducated' and thought that crossed a line. However in this instance everything I read makes me think the nurse was something of a bully and she was deliberately nasty and hurtful. Her insistence on calling the doctor a man during the tribunal just seems needlessly petty; the point about the changing situation still stands without such small supposed victories. I suppose the doctors claim that biological sex is 'nebulous' is the other side of that coin and reducing womanhood to some state of mind is also pretty objectionable and arguably a philosophical rather than scientific argument.

It feels to me like there is a lot to playing to the gallery going on and this could have been sorted out internally with a bit of basic respect on all sides, compromise and a fairly inexpensive installation of some private changing cubicles in a communal space.

Trump has signed an Executive Order banning males from taking part in female sports.

One of the striking things about this is the clarity of the language. How has it fallen to Donald Trump to be the defender of women and girls sports? This was a remarkable announcement about something that should be unremarkable. Did anyone see Trump surrounded by all these girls waiting to applaud him at the right time. Sports in schools is a massive deal in America. A lot of people must be trying to get their heads around how this was ever able to happen in the first place that biological men could compete in women's sports and certain governing bodies turned a blind eye to it. I'm not a fan of Trump's but credit where it's due this is an entirely sensible move, it's also one that will be followed by other countries when common sense returns, at some time in future we will probably look back in horror that this was ever able to happen, this happened because a radical and vocal politically motivated minority managed to persuade governing institutions to follow them into fantasy land.

Totally agree with the poster above. It’s genuinely ‘Emperor’s New Clothes’ stuff. As an aside, I certainly wouldn’t want to be treated by a doctor who thinks biological sex is nebulous.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bishop Hibee

Totally agree with the poster above. It’s genuinely ‘Emperor’s New Clothes’ stuff. As an aside, I certainly wouldn’t want to be treated by a doctor who thinks biological sex is nebulous.

---

Personally, I don't care what my doctor's religious, political, moral or social views are. They could be the complete antithesis of everything that I think, feel or believe.

All I would be interested in is whether they could do their job and help me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bishop Hibee

I certainly wouldn’t want to be treated by a doctor who thinks biological sex is nebulous.

---

Do you think it might be catching? :confused:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Personally, I don't care what my doctor's religious, political, moral or social views are. They could be the complete antithesis of everything that I think, feel or believe.

All I would be interested in is whether they could do their job and help me.

---

There's a difference from beliefs and saying something that's scientifically wrong in a field that is life and death. Many medicines and treatments are deadly in doses given to the wrong sex. There is also some illnesses that effect people with xy chromosomes.

I've no problem with someone spiritually believing that sex isn't defined but biologically it simply is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Personally, I don't care what my doctor's religious, political, moral or social views are. They could be the complete antithesis of everything that I think, feel or believe.

All I would be interested in is whether they could do their job and help me.

---

So why did you say you would ask the nurse if she would have a problem changing next to a lesbian then? What was the relevance of that if you don't care and she was treating you?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

So why did you say you would ask the nurse if she would have a problem changing next to a lesbian then? What was the relevance of that if you don't care and she was treating you?

---

This from the nurse manager at the tribunal


When asked by Ms Cunningham if she had any reason to doubt whether Ms Peggie's feelings of intimidation and embarrassment were genuine, she said no.

But she added: "There are other nurses who go into the toilet cubicles to get changed because they don't like getting changed in front of other women."




Some people are just uncomfortable changing in front of others. I don't think anyone would ask a changing room full of people if anyone is gay or trans.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

This from the nurse manager at the tribunal


When asked by Ms Cunningham if she had any reason to doubt whether Ms Peggie's feelings of intimidation and embarrassment were genuine, she said no.

But she added: "There are other nurses who go into the toilet cubicles to get changed because they don't like getting changed in front of other women."




Some people are just uncomfortable changing in front of others. I don't think anyone would ask a changing room full of people if anyone is gay or trans.

---

Sorry struggling to see the point you are making here?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

Sorry struggling to see the point you are making here?

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OK, put it another way, not every gay or trans person is obviously gay or trans. How would you know if the person next to you in a changing room identifies in a particular way?

If you saw Dr Upton passing in the street how would you identify her?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

OK, put it another way, not every gay or trans person is obviously gay or trans. How would you know if the person next to you in a changing room identifies in a particular way?

If you saw Dr Upton passing in the street how would you identify her?

---

That's not what this particular case is about though. It's about a woman who knew "Beth" was and is a man getting changed next to her and her not feeling comfortable with it, then being suspended when she raised a concern.

The nurse wasn't passing him in the street, she was a woman in the woman's changing room who didn't want to get changed next to a man.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jamie_1875

That's not what this particular case is about though. It's about a woman who knew "Beth" was and is a man getting changed next to her and her not feeling comfortable with it, then being suspended when she raised a concern.

The nurse wasn't passing him in the street, she was a woman in the woman's changing room who didn't want to get changed next to a man.

---

However, other nurses, who were not transphobic but didn't want to change in front of others, used toilet cubicles. Why didn't the nurse in question do the same if it bothered her so much?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

However, other nurses, who were not transphobic but didn't want to change in front of others, used toilet cubicles. Why didn't the nurse in question do the same if it bothered her so much?

---

So she is a transphobe now is she?

So a woman who is in a woman's changing rooms, a safe space for woman, should be forced to get changed in a toilet cubicle so she didn't upset the feelings of a man in the woman's changing room is what you are saying?

You a man telling a woman what to do and think and where to change is not really a great look is it....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

However, other nurses, who were not transphobic but didn't want to change in front of others, used toilet cubicles. Why didn't the nurse in question do the same if it bothered her so much?

---

Maybe her particular objection was to changing in front of someone she viewed as a man rather than changing in front of people in general?

I'm neither agreeing or disagreeing with her stance but the whole crux of the issue is around whether people born a different biological sex from their current gender identity should use single sex spaces so it's relevant in a way someone's sexuality isn't (in this instance).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jamie_1875

So why did you say you would ask the nurse if she would have a problem changing next to a lesbian then? What was the relevance of that if you don't care and she was treating you?

---

I think you need to read my post about that again.:greengrin

I suggested that the tribunal process might be served by asking her that question. They obviously think differently, since I don't think that has been raised. And, given the way the case has gone, it's maybe not relevant now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

I think you need to read my post about that again.:greengrin

I suggested that the tribunal process might be served by asking her that question. They obviously think differently, since I don't think that has been raised. And, given the way the case has gone, it's maybe not relevant now.

---

When 99% of sexual assaults are committed by males so it's got zero relevance. Us born males have to wear that badge unfortunately because it's men that assault. A lesbian is a biological female the doctor wasn't.

This is another case like sports where giving someone ie trans females more rights should be vetoed as it takes away another groups rights, females that don't won't to get changed in front of biological males. Calling females that don't want to get changed in front of biological males transphobes is misogynistic and unfair. Women should be allowed safe spaces

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

When 99% of sexual assaults are committed by males so it's got zero relevance. Us born males have to wear that badge unfortunately because it's men that assault. A lesbian is a biological female the doctor wasn't.

This is another case like sports where giving someone ie trans females more rights should be vetoed as it takes away another groups rights, females that don't won't to get changed in front of biological males. Calling females that don't want to get changed in front of biological males transphobes is misogynistic and unfair. Women should be allowed safe spaces

---

It would have relevance if the tribunal heard that she had an issue with gay women ie she was a "phobe". But no-one has brought that up, so (in this case) it hasn't any relevance. Which is what I meant in my post :wink:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

It would have relevance if the tribunal heard that she had an issue with gay women ie she was a "phobe". But no-one has brought that up, so (in this case) it hasn't any relevance. Which is what I implied in my post :wink:

---

She said at the time that she didn't want anyone with a ***** changing in the same room as her, lesbians don't have a ***** so that wasn't her objection. You may as well ask her if she's racist or anti disabled as both aren't what she objected too

The question that I don't think has been answered is, how did nurse Peggie know that Dr Upton is a transgender woman ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

She said at the time that she didn't want anyone with a ***** changing in the same room as her, lesbians don't have a ***** so that wasn't her objection. You may as well ask her if she's racist or anti disabled as both aren't what she objected too

---

I suppose it could be argued it was relevant if a pattern of bigoted or discriminatory behaviour could be shown.

Broadly I agree with you though. The issue here is about a woman objecting to someone born biologically male who she believes is still a male changing openly in a women's changing area. Personally I have no issue changing in communal spaces with other men and their sexual orientation never crosses my mind (it probably takes a certain kind of arrogance to assume a gay man is going to find a mere glimpse of my naked body somehow irresistible:greengrin). I would feel uncomfortable changing in front of a woman though for various reasons, not least the worry I would be making them feel in any way intimidated or uncomfortable.

The whole case leaves me conflicted because I do feel there has to be a degree of provision in such settings for people in the process of transitioning and being repeatedly told 'you aren't a real woman' must be hurtful. Equally though men calling women 'transphobes' because they feel uncomfortable having someone with a ***** seeing them change or having to see said ***** when they don't wish to is creeping towards misogyny. It's one of those situations where simplistic slogans just don't cut it because it's too nuanced for that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

She said at the time that she didn't want anyone with a ***** changing in the same room as her, lesbians don't have a ***** so that wasn't her objection. You may as well ask her if she's racist or anti disabled as both aren't what she objected too

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:greengrin Did you not see the bit where I said "in this case it's not relevant"? I'm actually agreeing with you :greengrin

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

:greengrin Did you not see the bit where I said "in this case it's not relevant"? I'm actually agreeing with you :greengrin

---

Sorry I didn't. Must be the shock of seeing someone I think is sensible agreeing with me, when I mostly post pish 😆

"I don't care to belong to any club that will have me as a member." Groucho Marx

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Sorry I didn't. Must be the shock of seeing someone I think is sensible agreeing with me, when I mostly post pish ��

"I don't care to belong to any club that will have me as a member." Groucho Marx

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:faf:

ftr, I don't think you "mostly post pish". Only those times when you agree/disagree with me (delete as applicable).

The question that I don't think has been answered is, how did nurse Peggie know that Dr Upton is a transgender woman ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

The question that I don't think has been answered is, how did nurse Peggie know that Dr Upton is a transgender woman ?

---

Because she has male, or that should probably now be traditionally male, reproductive organs and they changed beside each other in an opening changing room?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

The question that I don't think has been answered is, how did nurse Peggie know that Dr Upton is a transgender woman ?

---

In court she said because Dr upton had told staff. She also said she was 6 foot 1, had receding hair, an Adams apple and changed in front of her and that is when she complained.

My solution from earlier in the thread of having a gender neutral toilet in the building apparently was rejected by Dr Upton. She said that would be othering and she wanted to get changed in the female changing room

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

The question that I don't think has been answered is, how did nurse Peggie know that Dr Upton is a transgender woman ?

---

Why do you think the highly paid KC lawyers haven't asked that question? Because it's nothing to do with the case being heard.

It's in the reporting that he only began transitioning a few years ago, is married to a woman and was quite openly a man a few years ago is the most likely answer though as to how she knew him to be a man. I am also guessing the deeper voice and male body parts etc were a big giveaway.

Why do you think female changing rooms exist? For what purpose?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Personally, I don't care what my doctor's religious, political, moral or social views are. They could be the complete antithesis of everything that I think, feel or believe.

All I would be interested in is whether they could do their job and help me.

---

Neither do I. I worry about being treated by a Doctor pretending to be a woman who thinks sex is ‘guessed at’ at birth rather than observed though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jamie_1875

That's not what this particular case is about though. It's about a woman who knew "Beth" was and is a man getting changed next to her and her not feeling comfortable with it, then being suspended when she raised a concern.

The nurse wasn't passing him in the street, she was a woman in the woman's changing room who didn't want to get changed next to a man.

---

Wasn't it Upton who raised the concern (that she was being bullied by Peggie)? :dunno:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

Wasn't it Upton who raised the concern (that she was being bullied by Peggie)? :dunno:

---

She raised her concerns with her line manager who said it was NHS Fife Policy that if someone identified as a woman they had the right to use woman's spaces. The Dr then raised the offical claim and the nurse then took this to the employment tribunal for unlawful harassment under the equalities act. So yes it was made an official grievance as he felt bullied by the nurse as she didn't like him changing in the woman's changing room.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jamie_1875

She raised her concerns with her line manager who said it was NHS Fife Policy that if someone identified as a woman they had the right to use woman's spaces. The Dr then raised the offical claim and the nurse then took this to the employment tribunal for unlawful harassment under the equalities act. So yes it was made an official grievance as he felt bullied by the nurse as she didn't like him changing in the woman's changing room.

---

:aok:

So a 6'1 man feels so entitled that he reject's a gender neutral changing area, obviously with no consideration of how he is going to make others feel and tells a 5'4 women who is in a female only safe space that she is a bigot and transphobe because she objects to a man getting changed in a female only area. This is misogyny in drag.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 147lothian

So a 6'1 man feels so entitled that he reject's a gender neutral changing area, obviously with no consideration of how he is going to make others feel and tells a 5'4 women who is in a female only safe space that she is a bigot and transphobe because she objects to a man getting changed in a female only area. This is misogyny in drag.

---

What Velvet Underground album is that on? :greengrin

From The Scotsman today: ‘Anas Sarwar: Nurse Sandie Peggie should not face disciplinary action in NHS trans doctor Beth Upton row‘

Sarwar also saying ‘Knowing what we know now, we would not have supported the (Gender Recognition Reform) Bill.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bishop Hibee

From The Scotsman today: ‘Anas Sarwar: Nurse Sandie Peggie should not face disciplinary action in NHS trans doctor Beth Upton row‘

Sarwar also saying ‘Knowing what we know now, we would not have supported the (Gender Recognition Reform) Bill.

---

Utter BS, what does he know now that he didn't before or could of found out before, he voted for it along with his partner in crime Baillie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swNYRF8rnko

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bishop Hibee

From The Scotsman today: ‘Anas Sarwar: Nurse Sandie Peggie should not face disciplinary action in NHS trans doctor Beth Upton row‘

Sarwar also saying ‘Knowing what we know now, we would not have supported the (Gender Recognition Reform) Bill.

---

Should he be commenting on an ongoing case?

Seems a bit disrespectful of the process, if not against some ethical rules, and lays him open to accusations of trying to influence the case.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Andy Bee

Utter BS, what does he know now that he didn't before or could of found out before, he voted for it along with his partner in crime Baillie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swNYRF8rnko

---

Yes and no, I think at the time the Scottish Government did say that it would have no impact on the equalities act so you either believed them at the time or didn't. NHS Fife has been empowered though to basically ignore that and come up with their own policy, their policy is anyone that says they are a woman is a woman and that's it. Kinda of like what GRA was going to do before it was stopped. But I agree there were many many people who said hang on this is a big issue and they were largely ignored or dismissed as bigots and Sarwar and Baillie should have listened more and insisted on stronger amendments. And Labour MSPs where whipped to support it, another mistake at the time.

Although in this case NHS Fife just did what they wanted anyway and ignored the actual law.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Should he be commenting on an ongoing case?

Seems a bit disrespectful of the process, if not against some ethical rules, and lays him open to accusations of trying to influence the case.

---

This was brought up in Parliament today, it's not "sub judice" which means you can talk about it as it's not like a criminal case where you could commit contempt etc.

It was brought up as a few attempts were made to debate it and ask questions on what the Scottish Governments stance was but the PO never picked any questions and the SNP/Greens voted down the request to get a statement on it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

This was brought up in Parliament today, it's not "sub judice" which means you can talk about it as it's not like a criminal case where you could commit contempt etc.

It was brought up as a few attempts were made to debate it and ask questions on what the Scottish Governments stance was but the PO never picked any questions and the SNP/Greens voted down the request to get a statement on it.

---

2 of our elected reps:-

Conservative MSP Murdo Fraser pointed out that the NHS Fife tribunal was not a criminal case, where a jury could be swayed by comments in parliament. He said a ministerial statement would pose no "risk of prejudice".

Hepburn called Fraser's point "nonsense", saying that sub judice rules also applied to civil cases. "It's a live case," he told MSPs. "And we need to be careful what we say."

I didn't think it was even a civil case, but in my amateur mind (given the high profile nature of it) any public comment should be avoided.

Game-playing by all parties IMO.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

2 of our elected reps:-

Conservative MSP Murdo Fraser pointed out that the NHS Fife tribunal was not a criminal case, where a jury could be swayed by comments in parliament. He said a ministerial statement would pose no "risk of prejudice".

Hepburn called Fraser's point "nonsense", saying that sub judice rules also applied to civil cases. "It's a live case," he told MSPs. "And we need to be careful what we say."

I didn't think it was even a civil case, but in my amateur mind (given the high profile nature of it) any public comment should be avoided.

Game-playing by all parties IMO.

---

It's not a civil case, I think that's just nonsense from Hepburn. I don't see a issue with commenting by public figures seeing as it's such an important and fundamental issue, I would be concerned if our elected officials weren't commenting on it seeing the ramifications it may have.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

2 of our elected reps:-

Conservative MSP Murdo Fraser pointed out that the NHS Fife tribunal was not a criminal case, where a jury could be swayed by comments in parliament. He said a ministerial statement would pose no "risk of prejudice".

Hepburn called Fraser's point "nonsense", saying that sub judice rules also applied to civil cases. "It's a live case," he told MSPs. "And we need to be careful what we say."

I didn't think it was even a civil case, but in my amateur mind (given the high profile nature of it) any public comment should be avoided.

Game-playing by all parties IMO.

---

I do agree there is a bit of game playing going on here, but to be fair I would also hope that a case that will be decided by a judge would not be influenced by statements by politicians in this country. The judge should be deciding it on the merits of the case alone and if they are swayed or influenced by public comment or sentiment then they shouldn't be in that position IMHO.

Also, I don't think that a ministerial statement on whether the NHS policy of allowing people to change in the room that aligns with the gender they identify with is legal or not has any bearing on the case to be honest. Isn't the case about whether the nurse has faced unlawful harassment and victimisation (being suspended, subject to disciplinary action and having her work patterns adjusted) because of her belief that biological sex is immutable, not about whether the policy itself is lawful?

"The Equality and Human Rights Commission has today written to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care and NHS Fife, regarding access to single-sex changing facilities for NHS staff.

Baroness Kishwer Falkner, Chairwoman of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, said:

“As Britain’s equality regulator, we promote and enforce compliance with the Equality Act 2010.

“Health bodies in Scotland, England and Wales must have an accurate understanding of the operation of the Equality Act as it relates to the provision of single-sex services and spaces.

“Today we reminded NHS Fife of their obligation to protect individuals from discrimination and harassment on the basis of protected characteristics, including sex, religion or belief and gender reassignment.

“Under the Public Sector Equality Duty, all Scottish health boards must assess how their policies and practices affect people with protected characteristics. We have requested that NHS Fife provide us with a copy of any equality impact assessment relating to the provision of changing facilities for staff; any information relevant to how such policies have been kept under review; and any details on steps taken to ensure that the rights of different groups are balanced in the application of these policies.

“We also highlighted that the Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992 state that changing facilities will not be suitable “unless they include separate facilities for, or separate use of facilities by, men and women where necessary for reasons of propriety”. The Health and Safety Executive have an Approved Code of Practice and guidance that NHS Boards can refer to.

“This week media reported on NHS Scotland’s forthcoming Guide to Transitioning, which the Scottish Government confirmed has been shared with health boards in preparation for its implementation. It is important that this guide, and all guidance, policies and practices which rely on it, faithfully reflect and comply with the Equality Act 2010.

“We have asked to meet with the Cabinet Secretary to discuss the Scottish Government’s role in ensuring that NHS Scotland and other bodies meet their legal obligations under the Equality Act.”

Yes some people still think a nurse of 30 years is a transphobe for wanting the law to be upheld.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bishop Hibee

From The Scotsman today: ‘Anas Sarwar: Nurse Sandie Peggie should not face disciplinary action in NHS trans doctor Beth Upton row‘

Sarwar also saying ‘Knowing what we know now, we would not have supported the (Gender Recognition Reform) Bill.

---

The amount of straight up lies that come from Sarwar’s lips would make him right at home in the MAGA movement in the states.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jamie_1875

"The Equality and Human Rights Commission has today written to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care and NHS Fife, regarding access to single-sex changing facilities for NHS staff.

Baroness Kishwer Falkner, Chairwoman of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, said:

“As Britain’s equality regulator, we promote and enforce compliance with the Equality Act 2010.

“Health bodies in Scotland, England and Wales must have an accurate understanding of the operation of the Equality Act as it relates to the provision of single-sex services and spaces.

“Today we reminded NHS Fife of their obligation to protect individuals from discrimination and harassment on the basis of protected characteristics, including sex, religion or belief and gender reassignment.

“Under the Public Sector Equality Duty, all Scottish health boards must assess how their policies and practices affect people with protected characteristics. We have requested that NHS Fife provide us with a copy of any equality impact assessment relating to the provision of changing facilities for staff; any information relevant to how such policies have been kept under review; and any details on steps taken to ensure that the rights of different groups are balanced in the application of these policies.

“We also highlighted that the Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992 state that changing facilities will not be suitable “unless they include separate facilities for, or separate use of facilities by, men and women where necessary for reasons of propriety”. The Health and Safety Executive have an Approved Code of Practice and guidance that NHS Boards can refer to.

“This week media reported on NHS Scotland’s forthcoming Guide to Transitioning, which the Scottish Government confirmed has been shared with health boards in preparation for its implementation. It is important that this guide, and all guidance, policies and practices which rely on it, faithfully reflect and comply with the Equality Act 2010.

“We have asked to meet with the Cabinet Secretary to discuss the Scottish Government’s role in ensuring that NHS Scotland and other bodies meet their legal obligations under the Equality Act.”

Yes some people still think a nurse of 30 years is a transphobe for wanting the law to be upheld.

---

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/equality/equality-act-2010/your-rights-under-equality-act-2010/gender-reassignment-discrimination

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/equality/equality-act-2010/your-rights-under-equality-act-2010/gender-reassignment-discrimination

---

I am struggling again to understand the point you are making in relation to this ongoing case. That article doesn't say Dr Upton can use the woman's changing room.

Would you call an 18 yr old female student nurse who didn't want to get changed next to a fully intact man a transphobe? I am guessing yes, but am I wrong?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jamie_1875

I am struggling again to understand the point you are making in relation to this ongoing case. That article doesn't say Dr Upton can use the woman's changing room.

Would you call an 18 yr old female student nurse who didn't want to get changed next to a fully intact man a transphobe? I am guessing yes, but am I wrong?

---

That isn't an article but is the guidance on equality from the commission!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

That isn't an article but is the guidance on equality from the commission!!

---

So what has it got to do with the current case? Nowhere it says Dr Upton should be allowed into the woman's changing room does it?

But I see you ignored the question, you previously called the nurse a transphobe for not wanting to get changed next to Dr Upton, would you call an 18 yr old student nurse a transphobe if she similarly refused to get changed next to a fully intact male?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jamie_1875

So what has it got to do with the current case? Nowhere it says Dr Upton should be allowed into the woman's changing room does it?

But I see you ignored the question, you previously called the nurse a transphobe for not wanting to get changed next to Dr Upton, would you call an 18 yr old student nurse a transphobe if she similarly refused to get changed next to a fully intact male?

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https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/response-misinformation-about-single-sex-spaces-guidance?return-url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.equalityhumanrights.com%2Fse arch%3Fkeys%3DSingle-sex%2Btransgender%2B


We are aware of online misinformation*about guidance on single-sex spaces. It is false to suggest that we are looking to bar trans people from accessing spaces, such as public toilets, without a Gender Recognition Certificate.


It is completely false to suggest that we are looking to bar*trans people from accessing spaces without a Gender Recognition Certificate. We are not aware of any document*produced by the EHRC*that would support this.

The Equality Act provisions on gender reassignment are not predicated on possession, or not, of a Gender Recognition Certificate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/response-misinformation-about-single-sex-spaces-guidance?return-url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.equalityhumanrights.com%2Fse arch%3Fkeys%3DSingle-sex%2Btransgender%2B


We are aware of online misinformation*about guidance on single-sex spaces. It is false to suggest that we are looking to bar trans people from accessing spaces, such as public toilets, without a Gender Recognition Certificate.


It is completely false to suggest that we are looking to bar*trans people from accessing spaces without a Gender Recognition Certificate. We are not aware of any document*produced by the EHRC*that would support this.

The Equality Act provisions on gender reassignment are not predicated on possession, or not, of a Gender Recognition Certificate.

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I am really struggling what point you are making? Will try and be more direct.

Are you suggesting this guidance says Dr Upton could enter the woman's changing rooms, if so please point where it suggests this. (I am sure you saw the other guidance which of course makes it clear he can't)

And again you ignore the question about the 18 yr old student nurse. If you believe an older nurse is a transphobe by your logic the 18 year old is also a transphobe, yes or no?

Apologies for being so direct but I am not sure what your points actually are.

The University of Sussex has been fined £585,000 by the higher education regulator, the Office for Students (OfS), for failing to uphold freedom of speech.

The OfS investigation started with the case of Prof Kathleen Stock, who left the university in 2021 after being accused of transphobia for her views on sex and gender issues.

The OfS said the university's policy statement on trans and non-binary equality, including a requirement to "positively represent trans people", could lead to staff and students preventing themselves from voicing opposing views.

In an outbreak of sanity, it would seem the tide is turning in this debate.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn9vr4vjzgqo

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cvgq9ejql39t

Well well well imagine that! Hopefully the ‘woman can be born with a penis’ nonsense can be put to bed once and for all.