Tories are still lying *******s

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Originally Posted by He's here!

Not after Hitler came to power.

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Yes there was. 1936 General Election.

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Originally Posted by Kato

Yes there was. 1936 General Election.

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Not in the proper sense.

I know Timothy Snyder from his history of Ukraine. He sees parallels from modern right wing governments and the nazis

https://mobile.twitter.com/Channel4N...93731114524672

@Channel4News
"It's patently clear that some of the people who're involved in current politics…are borrowing some of the tactics of the 1920s and 1930s."

Yale History professor Timothy Snyder says some of today's politicians have learned propaganda techniques from twentieth century fascists

Didn't actually know about this so it mustn't have made a news furore. Previously the bbc presenter Alan sugar shared a mock up of Hitler and Jeremy Corbyn side by side at Nuremberg.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Yojimbo56...38216296660992

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Originally Posted by archie

Not in the proper sense.

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Illustrating the point brilliantly. You don’t go from democracy to fascism over night. Eroding democracy is one of those steps.

Cough, prologuing Parliament, Boyer suppression / ID, boundary changes.

J

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Originally Posted by Bristolhibby

Illustrating the point brilliantly. You don’t go from democracy to fascism over night. Eroding democracy is one of those steps.

Cough, prologuing Parliament, Boyer suppression / ID, boundary changes.

J

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Well they did. After the 1933 election there was a sham election in 1936. Only Nazis and associates could stand and certain groups were disenfranchised.

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Originally Posted by hibsbollah

Because instead you can easily make the case for genuine policies that would deal with the small boats crisis. WITHOUT playing wolf whistle with the racists.You could start with 1. Reopen asylum claim processing centres in Eastern Europe that were closed down and not reopened after Covid, so there is a safe and quick route to assessing claims. 2. Provide funding to employ and train 100 new claims handlers within the Home office, to speed up the backlog.
3. Get intel that is accurate; eg-the Albanian economic asylum seekers all using the same ‘blood feud’ justification for claiming asylum was clearly without merit, so rewrite the guidance.

You don’t have to make ‘difficult’ arguments about the intrinsic benefits to the economy of welcoming Syrian or Eritrean doctors or engineers fleeing war, or the usefulness in showing regimes we don’t like and that we’re trying to influence, (that human rights and the rule of law actually exist here and we’re not making demands on China and Russia from a position of total hypocrisy), you just need to make a few workable practical policy suggestions.

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You need to come up with a way to "stop the boats" before there are even thoughts of boats, as you say set up processing centres at source and let people into the UK who are genuine as a start, reduce the need for people to pay traffickers and then risk their life on a small boat across the channel.

The government seem to be so inhumane about this. We need trained and skilled migrants for the benefit of the economy and businesses.

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Originally Posted by archie

Not in the proper sense.

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It's wrong to say there wasn't an election after Hitler came to power.

Whether that election was valid or not or run along lines which would satisfy everyone is neither here nor there.

We had a referendum on our place in the EU, not in the proper sense, but the election took place.



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Originally Posted by Kato

It's wrong to say there wasn't an election after Hitler came to power.

Whether that election was valid or not or run along lines which would satisfy everyone is neither here nor there.

We had a referendum on our place in the EU, not in the proper sense, but the election took place.



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This is getting silly now. The election in 1936 (also a plebiscite) was only open to Nazis and associates to stand. It was a smoke screen. Here's the background. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936_German_parliamentary_election_and_referendum

There is no comparison to the EU referendum whatsoever. I don't know if you noticed but even mainstream party supported remain.

When uk public are asked they are always up there near the top compared to other nations when it comes to positive views of immigrants. Voters put it way behind the importance of the cost of living, the Tories don't want us talking about the economic sh show though

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/rishi-su...-boats-2196591

Keiran Pedley
Rishi Sunak needs to look at the polls: voters care far more about the cost of living than small boats
Polling evidence currently suggests that it is the economy, cost of living and public services that matter more to voters overall

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Originally Posted by grunt

We're talking about a football player's reaction to an awful Government policy instead of talking about the Tory Government's awful policy.

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That's the tory policy.

Say they're going to do something good, turn it into something awful, demonise those that call them out. Job done.

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Originally Posted by archie

Well they did. After the 1933 election there was a sham election in 1936. Only Nazis and associates could stand and certain groups were disenfranchised.

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The FPTP system doesn't allow for a "proper" General Election. It allows a party with the most votes to be forced into opposition. But those elections are still held, as was the 1936 German election.

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Originally Posted by archie

This is getting silly now. The election in 1936 (also a plebiscite) was only open to Nazis and associates to stand. It was a smoke screen. Here's the background. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936_G...and_referendum

There is no comparison to the EU referendum whatsoever. I don't know if you noticed but even mainstream party supported remain.

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Stop being silly then, archie.

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BBC's version impartiality revealed to be a fiction.


https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/s...cTxE3NR1w&s=19

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Originally Posted by Kato

Stop being silly then, archie.

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How am I being silly?

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Originally Posted by Kato

The FPTP system doesn't allow for a "proper" General Election. It allows a party with the most votes to be forced into opposition. But those elections are still held, as was the 1936 German election.

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No other party was allowed to stand and large parts of the electorate were disenfranchised. You'll be arguing next that the Von Stauffenberg plotters got a trial so what was the problem?

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Originally Posted by Jack

That's the tory policy.

Say they're going to do something good, turn it into something awful, demonise those that call them out. Job done.

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So don't walk into it!

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Originally Posted by archie

So don't walk into it!

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... by keeping quiet about it?

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Originally Posted by archie

No other party was allowed to stand and large parts of the electorate were disenfranchised. You'll be arguing next that the Von Stauffenberg plotters got a trial so what was the problem?

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The Germans had democracy until they didn't. And it was too late to do anything about it.

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Originally Posted by grunt

... by keeping quiet about it?

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Strategy isn't really your thing is it? The Tories announce appalling proposals. Gary Lineker tweets about it. So the discussion is quickly shifted on to that and the BBC rather than the issue in hand. Job done for the Tories wouldn't you say?

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Originally Posted by Rumble de Thump

The Germans had democracy until they didn't. And it was too late to do anything about it.

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So what is your point? Are you seriously saying that the Tories, if they win the next election, will pass an Enabling Act that outlaws other parties and appoints Sunak as Chancellor?

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Originally Posted by Rumble de Thump

The Germans had democracy until they didn't. And it was too late to do anything about it.

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Yep I think the 1936 elections just proves the point rather than the opposite.

Fascism didn't just appear in Germany sometime around that election. The seeds had been sown for years and the process was long since started prior to 1936. And that brings us back to the point being made now. No one is saying 'stop the boats' is directly equatable to the 'final solution'. It's about that process of undermining the law, undermining democracy, dehumanising people, othering groups, creating an us and them mentality, gaslighting, wrapping policy up in national flags and national identity etc etc. That's the problem now and that's how you start on a path towards sham elections and whatever comes next. No one is saying we will definitely reach that point but there are uncomfortable parallels with situation that have ended up in very unfortunate places.

See Braverman has jumped all the way to say Lineker diminished the Holocaust with his comments... she is desperate to keep attention on him and away from her!

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Originally Posted by archie

So what is your point? Are you seriously saying that the Tories, if they win the next election, will pass an Enabling Act that outlaws other parties and appoints Sunak as Chancellor?

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I'm not seriously suggesting anything you've just plucked out of your backside. I don't work for the Tories. I could understand people being ignorant of the tactics the Tories are using if they weren't well documented tactics that have been used by fascist governments for generations. But they are. It's textbook stuff. Ignoring it and pretending it's not happening would be very problematic. History tells us what can happen if we do.

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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

Yep I think the 1936 elections just proves the point rather than the opposite.

Fascism didn't just appear in Germany sometime around that election. The seeds had been sown for years and the process was long since started prior to 1936. And that brings us back to the point being made now. No one is saying 'stop the boats' is directly equatable to the 'final solution'. It's about that process of undermining the law, undermining democracy, dehumanising people, othering groups, creating an us and them mentality, gaslighting, wrapping policy up in national flags and national identity etc etc. That's the problem now and that's how you start on a path towards sham elections and whatever comes next. No one is saying we will definitely reach that point but there are uncomfortable parallels with situation that have ended up in very unfortunate places.

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Fascism didn't start Iin 1936. It took a hold after the 1933 election. The 1936 elections were a sham. They happened. But you could only vote for nazi approved candidates.

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Originally Posted by archie

So what is your point? Are you seriously saying that the Tories, if they win the next election, will pass an Enabling Act that outlaws other parties and appoints Sunak as Chancellor?

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What they would do is continue to erode the underpinnings of a democratic state as they have started to do with eg voter ID, attempting to change House of Commons custom and practice to prevent the legislature holding the executive to account, amending the law to stop the executive from being open to legal challenge...

Right now I'd guess that the majority of Tory MPs think they are doing these things for good reasons rather than with actively malign intent to create a fascist state. Every time they do they move the centre of polarity of our politics more to the right and closer to the hands of deeply unprincipled people like Johnson and Farage. What is the political distance from Johnson to Braverman to Francois to Tommy Robinson? I don't know, but if we want to avoid finding out we'd better realise that they need to be fought on everything, all the time - but deftly, not in ways that give flesh to their paper tigers. And especially on freedom of speech.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

When uk public are asked they are always up there near the top compared to other nations when it comes to positive views of immigrants. Voters put it way behind the importance of the cost of living, the Tories don't want us talking about the economic sh show though

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/rishi-su...-boats-2196591

Keiran Pedley
Rishi Sunak needs to look at the polls: voters care far more about the cost of living than small boats
Polling evidence currently suggests that it is the economy, cost of living and public services that matter more to voters overall

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I’ve seen you reference these stats before but I think they are misleading. It’s easy for a respondent to say they have positive views of migrants, they don’t want to be perceived as racist, that’s something to be avoided at all costs for most people as a label. It’s much more instructive to ask people who might be victims of prejudice to give THEIR views on how welcoming our society is ; (they may very well say positive things too, I have no idea). A good analogy might be; Very few bad drivers think they are bad drivers.

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Originally Posted by Rumble de Thump

I'm not seriously suggesting anything you've just plucked out of your backside. I don't work for the Tories. I could understand people being ignorant of the tactics the Tories are using if they weren't well documented tactics that have been used by fascist governments for generations. But they are. It's textbook stuff. Ignoring it and pretending it's not happening would be very problematic. History tells us what can happen if we do.

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No need to be rude. Are you saying that the Tories are moving to some sort of fascist putsch?

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Originally Posted by One Day Soon

What they would do is continue to erode the underpinnings of a democratic state as they have started to do with eg voter ID, attempting to change House of Commons custom and practice to prevent the legislature holding the executive to account, amending the law to stop the executive from being open to legal challenge...

Right now I'd guess that the majority of Tory MPs think they are doing these things for good reasons rather than with actively malign intent to create a fascist state. Every time they do they move the centre of polarity of our politics more to the right and closer to the hands of deeply unprincipled people like Johnson and Farage. What is the political distance from Johnson to Braverman to Francois to Tommy Robinson? I don't know, but if we want to avoid finding out we'd better realise that they need to be fought on everything, all the time - but deftly, not in ways that give flesh to their paper tigers. And especially on freedom of speech.

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You see there's a lot I agree with in what you say. It's just that the use of the term fascist/nazi has become so debased as to make it meaningless. I've seen it used to describe: immigration policies, covid restrictions, section 35, JK Rowling, gun control, For Women Scotland and so on. It's losing it's value as a descriptor of politics. Fascism is a distinct political philosophy. It's malign and dangerous. Throwing the term about loosely helps nobody.

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Originally Posted by archie

Fascism didn't start Iin 1936. It took a hold after the 1933 election. The 1936 elections were a sham. They happened. But you could only vote for nazi approved candidates.

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It took hold well before 1933, step by step. 1933 was just the first stage of formalising their power. The German fascist movement grew from a handful of men to over a million in relatively short order precisely because in various institutions throughout Germany there were fascist sympathisers who smoothed the way, echoed the hatred and endorsed the demands despite not being card carrying Nazi party members themselves.

It's like building a house. It isn't a house until its finished, but you know what it is struggling to become from the moment the first foundations are dug or brick laid.