Question anything hearts related against the grain on here and get called a "yam" off a couple of half wits. Well I never :)Quote:
Originally Posted by One Day Soon
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Question anything hearts related against the grain on here and get called a "yam" off a couple of half wits. Well I never :)Quote:
Originally Posted by One Day Soon
I think it was a more general comment. Not directed at person in particular. Your adding fuel to the fire with this post bud!! Don't biteQuote:
Originally Posted by Inch Hibs
Spot on mate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Debate is good, agreed. Saying that there isn't any evidence they could liquidate doesn't have the makings of a very good debate though. They are in Administration after all, and their admins are telling everyone there's a finite amount of money left. There's a clue that they might right there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
I actually know Euan as our kids are friends, he's a really nice bloke, will have to inform him that his colleague's picture is in the dictionary next to the word "clueless" though.Quote:
Originally Posted by CyberSauzee
You're a sensitive soul.Quote:
Originally Posted by Inch Hibs
I didn't specifically call you out as a Yam, you just put that label on yourself.
FoH Question.
I never venture on to their site so not sure if it's answered there. What are their plans for a board?
I can imagine the KB crew of the boy craigie, .lawson, the Attenboroughs and co champing at the bit to oversee corporate governance.
They are alleged to be ready to roll but who will be running the show - if, indeed, it ever comes to pass?
It has been lots of fun for months and months now, its great right now and even if they get control and out of admin, you do sense the fun aint over.Quote:
Originally Posted by tamig
I think that's a more valid question since ford and Mackie jumped ship the other month.Quote:
Originally Posted by tamig
Pretty sure they were going to be key members of the board
I think I've quoted the wrong post here, but I believe you previously said there was no evidence of them being at risk of liquidation. I counter you by suggesting the evidence is staring you in the face. They are currently subject to an insolvency event (admin). That's all the evidence you need that they're in danger of going into liquidation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Inch Hibs
Take it from me, having worked in the insolvency profession for 12 years, I saw many an admin in that time and only ever witnessed 1 cva. They don't happen often and the vast vast majority of admins end in a newco with subsequent liquidation. Look what happened to the currant buns for evidence of that scenario.
That is my preferred outcome, seeing Hearts run by a set of pompous, self-regarding Uber-Trumpets. Step Up, FoH.Quote:
Originally Posted by tamig
Well IM MP has stated he'll quit when it all goes through. More internal posturing and carnage awaits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kato
For me the only good thing to come of this is that they won't or shouldn't be able to spend thousands and thousands per week they don't have on players wages.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kato
ST money etc will be it (plus prize money) will be what they will have to work with.
Still would prefer them deid.
Just to add to this, The administrators are duty-bound to maintain the club as a going concern, if they can't do that they will have no choice but to liquidate. Using next year's income to finance this year's operations is strong evidence that they are not a going concern.Quote:
Originally Posted by SmashinGlass
The money from season tickets sold last year has lasted this far, but by their own admission it is now running out. If that happens before they can exit administration BDO's options are very limited.
Other guys have replied to other posts you've raised but you have to realise that BDO aren't keeping them afloat on what they raised in ST sales alone. There is still a dependency on other income - mainly walk ups - to see them through. They've got a bonus with the semi but the walk up numbers haven't been great. This will all put a strain on BDO steering them successfully through admin. Can you still not see that liquidation is a real possibility?Quote:
Originally Posted by Inch Hibs
Does anyone know by what date they need to be out of admin to avoid another points deduction next season?
I don't think anyone knows it for sure. Sometime between the last game of this season and the first game of next season is about the best answer you'll get :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by Deek9
Without a doubt I'd say.Quote:
Originally Posted by tamig
Latest (still draft docs) have both Bidco and FoH board as sharing control over the Hearts board appointments.
FoH directors these days have 5 different fan groups involved with a history of bickering and self serving.
No definitive date. My feeling, as with many others here, is that if they do not exit admin prior to the end of this season, they won't be around to start next season. In that case, it's largely a moot pointQuote:
Originally Posted by Deek9
Wouldn't worry about, I kind of agree with you. They certainly are not close to liquidation and the folk on here giving people grief about having another point of view are as bad as the yams who don't realise their club will never be as it was!Quote:
Originally Posted by Inch Hibs
yup, feel something has to give by season end.Quote:
Originally Posted by SmashinGlass
Folks often mention ST prices "depending on which league"... but No league is a possibility!
They have to be as close to Liquidation, as one could be ??Quote:
Originally Posted by QMU-1875
Agree and the next 4 or so weeks without a home game is gonnae hurt them bad. No income.Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig_in_Prague
Hopefully they will get a couple of players sent off for violent conduct in the rearranged St Mirren game. Which would be nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Falcon
Aye, but if they get through the semi they may make it to season end. Really think rules need to be clear on this otherwise the league will interpret as they wish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig_in_Prague
Its really the shares and the situation in Lithuania, which to me could see them Liquidated. Its out of there hands and time is not on their side (yet, seems not to matter a jot with that lot).Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldo
I can see 400,000 blank faces in a while, wondering why theres now a new Tesco near the wonderful Robbos bar.
What rule isn't clear?Quote:
Originally Posted by Deek9
They have got a home game next Wednesday against st mirrenQuote:
Originally Posted by Aldo
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmashinGlass
But fitba's different - or so we keep getting told. Christ knows why it should be; a ***** business is a ***** business, after all
Aaah forgot bout that silly me.Quote:
Originally Posted by oconnors_strip
BDO have their own agenda, maybe not bound by professional standards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caversham Green
The Murray and Souther goings on, as an example
I think the BDO chaps enjoy running football clubs for a bit. Probably have their eyes on careers on that front in due course. Not exactly the point of court appointed administrators.Quote:
Originally Posted by clerriehibs
Sorry, omitted previous quote. The date they need to be out of admin to avoid another points deduction next season?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibbyradge
Ask yourself this. If they are not close to Liquidation, why are they listed on Companies House as being subject to Administration which, incidentally, is governed by the Insolvency (Scotland) Act 1986. As I stated previously I have a wealth of experience in these matters, indeed I actually even used to work for BDO's very own Bryan Jackson. If you can't believe me, or any one of a number of people qualified to make such statements on the matter then I don't know what can be suggested to you in order to make you look at the situation from an alternative angle. Nobody is giving anyone who thinks the yams won't be liquidated grief, we're simply giving a realistic (arguably more realistic) point of view. :agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by QMU-1875
I do love a Cav Green post: succinct, concise, easy to understand and thought provoking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caversham Green
Banderson take note: try and stick to facts like above rather than your vermicular and unqualified prose.
Do the bookies offer odds on liquidation or succesful cva in these situations?Quote:
Originally Posted by SmashinGlass
Is Bryan Jackson a fud?
What makes this one so complicated is the Lithuanian connection and the legal machinations out there. Does everything just take longer or is there disagreement between parties that we are unaware of .With the current buns it was fairly obvious even to someone like me that Craig Whyte s job was to take them into liquidation as the debts were so huge and big tax case was too risky in the west coast the whole scenario was on the news constantly and almost the sole topic of debate .So like it or not you got more than a basic understanding of some issues .This one gets no coverage at all and you kind of just assume it's a forgone conclusion that at some point before end of March time the will get some sort of deal done via cva If liquidation was in the offing would there not be a bigger story brewing and some journalist would be on to it .? maybe that's why for so long there has been complacency with the yams .Quote:
Originally Posted by SmashinGlass
Dont think you would get any decent odds at bookies on your second questionQuote:
Originally Posted by clerriehibs
.....and quite possibly without a league point either :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldo
Their entire season/future now boils down to reaching the small cup final.
Brian Jackson said on arrival at Hearts it was the worst position he'd ever seen. The company had no cash and big outgoings, even after trimming the squad back.
After hawking the club to possible buyers, he flushed out three interested parties: one had nearly destroyed Livingston after a string of broken promises, one was deemed to have zero credibility, and the winner was FoH who have an unproven business model and could only rustle up £2.5m - widely accepted to be a lot lower than the land value of Tynecastle. No one else would touch it with a barge pole.
Meanwhile, they are caught up in an international criminal investigation, which means the shares they need to buy to come out of admin are frozen by the Lithuanian courts, and there is no confirmed timescale for their release.
Oh, and they don't have enough cash to last the season.
People said Rangers couldn't be liquidated. Can Hearts really avoid the same fate?
There's some truth in that tbf. For example no other business would have got away with taking money for 'shares' with the stated purpose of just staying in business and then failing to actually issue those shares. From a professional point of view I don't think HoMFC should have got away with it either - it was almost certainly fraudulent - but the utter stupidity of football fans in general and yams in particular means they have got away with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by clerriehibs
I include myself in that point about fans by the way, I said at the time that I would have bought shares if it had been Hibs in that position. I would have been kicking up hell in the summer though.
BDO's agenda now is to deliver HoMFC to its prospective owners in a condition that means they can carry on business for the future. That would be the same for any administrator at this stage of the game and they are still bound by professional and legal standards. However there are still a number of obstacles in their way - the passage of time being a major one - and whether they can overcome them all remains to be seen. If they can't then liquidation appears to be the only alternative.Quote:
Originally Posted by clerriehibs
You clearly havnae read the expert opinion at the top of the page. "They certainly are not close to liquidation" :agree::greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by jacomoseven
They certainly are not close to be saved, that's for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Desperate Dan
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/25846992
If this is correct, they can't hope to have the CVA approved before the end of Feb. Given it took Dunfermline 5 months from that point to come out of admin, they will be doing amazingly well to do that before the summer. That would mean starting the next season in the Championship on -15.
Ouch. And this looks like the best possible outcome for them.
First question, I honestly don't know.Quote:
Originally Posted by clerriehibs
Second question, no, he's actually a really sound guy. I never worked with him too intimately, but the limited contact I had with the guy he was pretty decent and down to earth.
No worries, 1000-2000 walk ups is hardly going to save them once their expenses are deducted - police, stewarding, electricity, child porn etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldo
Assuming these are being paid by the fraudulent f(_)kdogs.
Like others, I like reading your objective analyses. But what's this about the yam fans being particularly stupid (unless you meant "case in point")? Much as any hibby would love it to be true, I don't think anyone can seriously claim they're significantly thicker, as a group, than the average football fan?Quote:
Originally Posted by Caversham Green
Or are they ...
They're certainly a lot more gullible :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by clerriehibs
Probably not and definitely no.Quote:
Originally Posted by clerriehibs
Mid week against st mirren before cup game that will be test for the support .if they get over 10 000 then some one there canne countQuote:
Originally Posted by oconnors_strip
The point is to try and preserve the business as a going concern. They are still doing that. If and When that is no longer feasible, they will stop. If and when they succeed, they will stop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy74
Was impressed again with wee Januzaj in the Man Utd game this evening. Setting up a goal deep into extra time. Heard the commentator say at one point, "he's still so young but you really could play a game every day when you're 18". He's obviously not been briefed about the 2014 health and safety concerns.
A bit miffed at this fixture popping up,the thought of no paying punters for 6 weeks was most pleasing,mind you a wednesday night game against St Midden surely a full hoose,hopefully there will be some champions league game on that night and you can count the crowd on one hand,And hopefully Yogis boys will end there extra income from the cup run and you can start putting the for sale signs up.Quote:
Originally Posted by oconnors_strip
The majority of fans who will attend the match will be season ticket holders so hearts won't make much money from this game. They will give the usual higher attendance figure as per usual. It's probably actually going to cost the club more in the long run to host this game on a Wednesday night due to paying for security/staff/catering etcQuote:
Originally Posted by gorgie greens
I've not been following the latest goings on with those thieving shameless morons. What's the score with them now? Is liquidation still a goer or is that unlikely now? Anyone?
Exclusive in this morning's Scotsman: "Shares still frozen, but the rubber stamp will fix that. Probably. Maybe #Allverycomplex"
Is this some sort of magic rubber stamp they're all hoping on?
It is also worth noting that they are operating at much reduced staffing levels who are working for much reduced wages. All that will change if/when they exit administration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caversham Green
Much depends on timing now. They need to get the deal done before BDO run out of cash, which they have predicted to be February /March. However, the timing of the deal is out of BDO's hands but can't happen until it's approved at a meeting which will take place at the end of February and until the Lithuanian court releases the shares, which remain frozen. The ever-reliable Barry Anderson (who has at last twigged that they are frozen) believes that to be a rubber stamp job, but hasn't put a timescale on it - it probably can't happen until after the UBIG meeting, so that takes us into March. If all that happens in time they can start the process of exiting administration - typically another 4-6 weeks.Quote:
Originally Posted by EK_Hibs
Liquidation remains a distinct possibility IMHO.
PR is key to BDO getting Hearts out of Admin. If there is any suggestion in the press that liquidation looks inevitable, then the game is up for BDO. Yams will not renew STs, they will stop their DDs and the atmosphere around the club will collapse. BDO know this and will probably have briefed all the journos about the dangers of mentioning the L word.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronniekirk
:agree: This kid is an exceptional prospect but as you say he is not yam class - doubt they would take him anyway as I am sure I read on yakback that their "special relationship" is with Liverpool.Quote:
Originally Posted by NadeAteMyLunch!
Liverpool, the only EPL club to be bumped for money by the yam.
Exactly, although at the end of each positive statement issued by BDO, there's the wee "we're not 100% sure" disclaimer to cover their backsides.Quote:
Originally Posted by Onion
I think they have the Rubber Stamp at the ready.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Governor
They've just misplaced the Ink Pad.
Isn't the meeting at the end of February a Ukio Bank meeting? UBIG are in the process of establishing a creditors committee 'in the first quarter'. Or have I got this wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caversham Green
Anyway whatever they are getting perilously close to the season end in administration and a further 15 point deduction next season (if they survive).
A rubber stamp, yesterday:-
http://bowtielaw.files.wordpress.com...bber-stamp.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caversham Green
Do the UBIG administrators have any input into the unfreezing of the shares, or is it likely that they would possibly agree to the sale and it would be passed over to the Lith courts?
Unless the Lith investigations have already looked into financial transactions involving Hearts I cannot see how they could allow any sale until such time as they had, nor could I see them fast-track a review of those transactions for the sake of a relatively small stake in a foreign country.
Why not read through the last few pages of this thread? That should bring up to date with current thinking. :aok:Quote:
Originally Posted by EK_Hibs
Just to be clear, if they're in Admin at the season end do they auto get the 15 pt penalty. Or is it only if they're in Admin at the start of the new season ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Liberal Hibby
I think it is a grey area however given they used the end of last season as a cut-off point for avoiding relegation it would be interesting to see them argue that it should be the start of the season as a cut-off point should they come out of adminstration during the close season.Quote:
Originally Posted by Onion
Nobody seems clear on this, but in the interest of sporting integrity, it would have to be the beginning of June as this was the date they used to avoid being relegated, because this was deemed the new season beginningQuote:
Originally Posted by Onion
The Magic Rubber Stamp, sounds like a fairy tale.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Governor
:agree: Makes sense. Cannot see what incentive there is for the Lith courts to fast-track. Not as if the creditors are going to get anything out of it ! And the Admins/Courts are sitting on a piece of marketable Edinburgh real estate, so even the FOH £2.5M wouldn't be much of a loss.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Hibee Harp
Don't be too miffed, it is what it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by gorgie greens
There will be more twists and turns in this story, a midweek game against St Mirren really means nothing in the overall scheme of things. The result of the semi final probably will be important however.
:hilariousQuote:
Originally Posted by Desperate Dan
But they still could have which is why their has been all this noise coming out recently? The liths aren't hibees like, they couldn't care less either way!Quote:
Originally Posted by Onion
They will care about the process of law.Quote:
Originally Posted by QMU-1875
Then why on earth is Barry Anderson and the rest of the Scottish media piping up then? Surely they wouldn't just come out with this "their saved" mantra if they hadn't actually heard something. I mean as difficult as it is to believe journalists are educated so surely they can figure out that it's Lithuanian law that sees these shares frozen and that because of this their is nothing hearts can do?Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Consider what was printed about Rangers before they went belly up. The majority of Scottish football 'journalists' report what they are feed by clubs.Quote:
Originally Posted by QMU-1875
Anderson kicked off this story; the rest of the media are merely rehashing his.Quote:
Originally Posted by QMU-1875
To be fair to Anderson, he did say that the shares are frozen, a fact that no-one else has mentioned.
One common factor in this story, and the Rangers one, is that football journalists are being asked to write about stuff of which they have very little knowledge. In some ways that is unfair on them, but IMO they should also have the wit to ask the questions that are being asked publicly on fora like this.
Another common factor is that one should not always believe what journalists write, for the above reason if nothing else. Particularly Anderson... remember the "massive" sponsorship deal? :rolleyes:
BAnderson was reporting in May that Hearts were not in imminent danger of administration. Why on earth are you basing your fact on his ramblings? He says a deal is done, FOH say the opposite. You choose to believe Banderson over FOH? Fair enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by QMU-1875
He was also the first tae break the story of Wonga giving the yams a million up front, oh ma sides :hilariousQuote:
Originally Posted by The Governor
Cannae believe anybody is using him as a 'credible source' :hilarious for their argument or any other for that matter, many times they have had tae pull articles or change headlines when what they've put up has be exposed as a load of mince
Can BDO request the direct debit cash from the Foundation of chumps before exiting administration if money is drying up or has that been safe guarded to be used only by them when they exit admin?
Safe guarded until afterQuote:
Originally Posted by Inch Hibs
I suppose they can ask but dipping out of FOHs funds will leave FOH short for when they need it.
Also it'd just be proof that Hearts are not a viable business if they need another 'donation'
I wonder if the media would hold the same view if some insignificant Lithuanian team had pumped a Scottish bank for £70m of their money? Would they be as sympathetic to their plight?Quote:
Originally Posted by QMU-1875
Surely when the diddies signed up they must have been advised this money was for when they came out of admin, not to try and buy their way out of admin?Quote:
Originally Posted by Inch Hibs
I have always been a little unsure about this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Inch Hibs
The explanation on FoH's website says that:
The funds will be used for:
The financing of the purchase of the majority shareholding in HoMplc; and
Other legitimate purposes/projects, subject to board and membership approval, which will assist in ensuring the financial stability and/or the betterment of HoMplc.
http://www.foundationofhearts.org/faqs/
That "other legitimate purposes" clause seems to give them a fair bit of leeway to use the funds in other ways, such as propping up the club this season... "subject to board and membership approval".
Forgive my ignorance on this topic. I've tried to read as many pages of this thread as I can, but 1237 pages is just too many for me to digest.
Can someone explain to me who actually owns Tynecastle the ground? Is the ground ownership part of FoH's CVA agreement, or are they simply looking to take over the running of the club, but won't own the ground they're playing on?
If Ubig & Ukio are both in liquidation, are the liquidators for these companies looking to sell the ground to recoup money for their creditors?
http://i39.tinypic.com/xaymi0.pngQuote:
Originally Posted by Glory Lurker
Cheers mate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Judas Iscariot
Hearts own Tynecastle.Quote:
Originally Posted by greiang
If the CVA goes through, Hearts will still own it. FOH will be the owners of Hearts. That purchase will have been financed by the backers, who will be repaid (in theory) by the Direct Debits.
I would expect that the finance will be secured over Tynecastle, so that if it all goes Pete Tong again the backers can take it over.
So many loopholes as their track record of avoiding the ***** tells me if they wanted they would use that money.Quote:
Originally Posted by jacomoseven
These securities don't appear to be worth the paper they are written on. Did UKIO not have a security over Tynecastle to the value of £6.8m?Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Another thing I've never understood is why they where allowed to go I to administration and bump loads of companies/charities without being told to sell assets ie the crumbling ****hole to raise funds? It's surely not right they bump loads of companies and still own assets worth a few million?
Had they done that, UKIO would have got all the money that the sale raised. They have security over Tynecastle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Inch Hibs
Since Vlad stopped supporting Hearts financially, I can't think of a credible scenario whereby the small creditors would have been paid.
The difference with this one is that the security will "only" be for a couple of million. That loan should be covered by the value of Tynie.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike Mandela
I see, fair do's. Why didn't ukios admin or temp admin demand this then? Seems like they just say back said zip now getting paid peanuts?Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Had they demanded that, ie by calling in their security, HMFC would have gone into administration immediately. So the end result would have been the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Inch Hibs
Should have done it anyway IMO :)Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Actually, I am thinking that it wouldn't have been administration, it would have been liquidation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Inch Hibs
Only they can say why they didn't do it. Perhaps they thought that they would get the full value of their security. In hindsight, that may have been a poor choice.
Iv an inkling that the administration process is going to drag on for a while yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Inch Hibs