Yup, really needs to tie in with the Westminster version of the legislationQuote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
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Yup, really needs to tie in with the Westminster version of the legislationQuote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
I think that will happen this week.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
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Why? It’s a devolved issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Alf
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https://twitter.com/Martin1Williams/...h78qPwl3w-Eqmw
Cost to taxpayer of ferries fiasco approaches half a billion pounds.
Not a good morning of headlines for Sturgeon.
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...-and-cans.html
https://www.historyandpolicy.org/pol...untary-schemes
Those of a certain vintage will remember getting money for empty juice bottles, why is it such an issue now??
But has impacts beyond Scotland.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Haven't we been here before?Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
It’s not. It’s a system that works very well in Norway. I think the problem is we don’t appear to be very ready for its launch. Better to delay than have a poor launch. Policy delivery as important as the idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
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Such as?Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
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Because the scheme you recall put the onus on the consumer to return the bottle for cash. This scheme puts the onus on the producer, with fines for not meeting minimum thresholds of recycling and all overseen by a complicated administrative tracking process.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
As it stands just now it will impact negatively on Scottish businesses. I’m not so sure it has any impact elsewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
Suppliers from outside Scotland will have to sign up for the scheme. So they will face registration and production costs that don't apply in other parts of the UK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/p...cheme-29162395Quote:
Originally Posted by marinello59
Well if business from outside Scotland sells in Scotland it will affect them.Quote:
Originally Posted by marinello59
That is the case for countries all over Europe.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
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Businesses will just stop selling in Scotland, that's what the guy on the Sunday show was saying. It will reduce products by 20%-40% potentially.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
For the smaller producers it probably just won't be worth their while.
So even less choice then if they just stop sending products to Scotland.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Discussion of specific issues here https://www.thespiritsbusiness.com/2023/01/deposit-return-scheme-good-or-bad/Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
It's certainly a major (in some cases potentially business-ending) issue for smaller brewers/drinks producers. The last time I saw Slater talk about it her attitude was pretty much 'tough, green/climate change issues are more important than maintaining your livelihood'.Quote:
Originally Posted by marinello59
It's been ill thought-out from the start (initial announcement was in 2017) and just seems to be getting messier. IIRC the rest of the UK isn't due to follow suit until 2025 so it may be we'll see a nationwide strategy negotiated and the Scotland-only 'flagship' scheme set aside.
Which is why there will probably be a softer launch that only affects the biggest retailers at first so that any problems can be identified before gradually increasing its scope.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
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I doubt anybody serious is overly worried about people crossing the border to claim 20p back on a container they bought in England.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
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From the Scotsman.
"Manchester-based Chris Jones, who is the manager director of Paragon Brands, which distributes drinks brands from around the world into the UK, said that they have already stopped their beers being sold in Scotland. He said: “One of the brands within our portfolio is a beer we make ourselves and which sells in multiple countries. We’ve taken the decision to withdraw the beer from Scotland. So while we're going to continue with it on draft format, because it's in a recyclable 50 litre keg, the cans and bottles, we're going to withdraw from the Scottish market.”
"Siren Craft Brew in Wokingham have also stated that they’ll be withdrawing from Scotland, saying: “without some profound changes to the scheme I cannot see how small breweries, us included will be able to provide cans in Scotland. As it stands we shall be withdrawing small pack from Scotland.”
"Brew Cavern from Nottingham have also spelled out their concerns, saying “A reasonable percentage of our turnover comes from sales into Scotland. What right does (Lorna Slater) have to strip that away because (there’s been) no engagement with small businesses to address their concerns? We sell products from over 100 breweries, cider and wine makers. It’s logistically impossible to ensure they’re all signed up to this scheme, especially as some are overseas breweries who may not see any value in registering.”
Far from unthinkable that folk from Scotland will buy in bulk from across the border though. That article does articulate very well the reasons this scheme is likely to create more problems than it solves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
It's the producer who will be subject to financial penalties. So if the are outwith Scotland and sell here they are still liable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
But the Minister responsible doesn't know where the fines go. When Lorna Slater was asked at the parliamentary committee she said "I don't know"Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
It's not unreasonable for the SG to cite the pandemic as a contributory cause to the launch delay. It's had a significant impact on costs across pretty much all industries. However, from a logistics point of view they've had six years to identify any potential problems, yet those problems seem only to be increasing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
How would that work with big international companies that sell all over the uk? Have specific labelled cans and bottles for only the Scottish market?Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
Works fine in the EU.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zambernardi1875
Yeah I’m wondering how it will work. You pay £2.40 more on a 12 pack and get it back. Also where will these recycling places be located if say I bought a can of coke out a corner shop?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
Theres one in the car park of our local SainsburyQuote:
Originally Posted by Zambernardi1875
But at the moment say you are exporting your wine to the UK from France, it will be labeled as being sent to the UK and arrive in the UK and be distributed throughout the UK. Now this producer will need to register with the Scottish Government and have different labels for Scotland so likely a new production run or something, if they don't comply they get fined. So extra costs and a new production line will need established, for some it might be fine but for smaller producers they will probably just not bother and stop producing for the Scottish market.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
As for the fine I am not sure how that would work, how can the Scottish Government fine a company based in France.
So if you bought your can of coke at the corner shop what does the Sainsburys machine give you back? 20p for Sainsburys? Even although you never bought it there in the first place? Or literally a 20p coin?Quote:
Originally Posted by greenginger
Over here the supermarkets have machines that collect the empties and give you a voucher that you can cash at the check-out. Smaller shops take the empties over the counter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zambernardi1875
Seems pretty straight forward. We are not reinventing the wheel here. There are working examples to copy all over Europe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
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Lol, overly complex was the description from the Scottish Hospitality Group, but what do they know. They probably just hate Nicola Sturgeon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Seems a disadvantage to small business though as big supermarkets will easily supply these RVM and benefit from people collecting cans they bought at the corner shop to spend in Tesco. Even though the corner shop has put an extra 20p on each canQuote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
It's illegal to sell some drinks containers that are non-returnable. The deposit is added to the price of the container by the supermarket and payed back when the container is returned. The supermarket will then sell the returns to recycling companies who will either recycle them or dispose of them in an environmentally friendly way.Quote:
Originally Posted by James310
The manufacturer only has to ensure the labelling is correct for the country they export to, which they already do due to other regulations regarding language and nutritional information.
I think the key point there is that the consumer makes the decision. In the Scottish scheme a company can get fined if the threshold for recycling has not been metQuote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
So why are many producers saying they won't bother sending products to Scotland if it's so easy and straight forward?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
So if I buy wholesale from England, the companies supplying the wholesale companies in England will have to work out how much they roughly sell to Scotland and supply different labels? Also why add a cost to the consumer instead of increasing and improving recycling centres.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
You won't like this as it is from a trade body, but it raises interesting points, including comparisons with Europe. https://wsta.co.uk/myth-busting-deposit-return-schemes/Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
There was a similar reaction over here before the laws came into effect and drinks manufacturers and retailers fought in court to stop the introduction of the new laws right up until they were introduced. The legal actions only managed to delay the introduction for 9 months, but low and behold, nobody stopped selling their products in Germany.Quote:
Originally Posted by James310
Of course manufacturers want as little hassle as possible in getting their products to market, but even they have a responsibility to the environment, one that they now have to take seriously.
If you ask your average German about the recycling laws, I'm sure the vast majority wouldn't want to go back to the old ways.
I don't share your faith in people to do the right thing, having a deposit on glass and plastic only costs money if they don't return the items for recycling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zambernardi1875
I've updated my typo.Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
Has anywhere else launched a similar scheme in a small part of a deeply integrated free-trade area when the rest of that area was about to launch a quite different scheme?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
Because its the fact that manufacturers/brewers are going to have to run two systems at.once that's causing them so much angst as it is greatly.increasing their costs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Both sides.of the border changing at once takes the duplication element out of the equation.
I've no idea, but the benefits hugely outweigh the minor problems, there's no better solution on offer but if you keep looking for problems then you'll find some. Pretty much like nearly every progressive policy. But maybe Scotland is just too wee, poor and stupid to enact change.Quote:
Originally Posted by James310
I doubt tapping a few changes into a computerised label printing machine is going to "greatly increase" manufacturing costs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Alf
good thread on some of the issues for small business
https://twitter.com/Brew_Theo/status/1618958464113610754?s=20&t=oBahk9cJqn9zXuI0tPjFwQ
Yet lots of companies seem to find it difficult, you should become a consultant where you go into these business who obviously don't know their own business and manufacturing process and tell them it's easy to just change some labels.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
Interesting taQuote:
Originally Posted by Zambernardi1875
im struggling to understand the point in the 20p, people already recycle at home, the cost of each RVM will be about 8-10k how many of these will be needed in scotland?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
will people really keep a can in there bag to wait for a machine or just put it in normal recycling bin. you also didnt answer my question about wholesalers. if you listen to small business this has nothing to do with being too wee poor or stupid but rather cutting youre nose off to spite ones face.
the only major problem now will be the clamer to hold house parties
Meeeow! Just giving you my opinion on how it works here but I suppose it doesn't support your everything the SNP does bad agenda.Quote:
Originally Posted by James310
I'm simply sharing my opinion on recycling as someone who lives in a country that already has a similar system in place that works well. Why would Scotland again be an exception?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zambernardi1875
https://www.heraldscotland.com/polit...land-doctrine/
Excellent interview today with Stewart Macdonald.
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was the system rolled out throughout the whole country or just a few separate states or regions first? im all for the system working but it has to be the right one to benefit scotlandQuote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
Some sort of phased roll out is probably the best way to go to begin with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zambernardi1875
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How would that be implementedQuote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Personally I have no clue but if I was charged with the task I would look at exactly what other successful roll outs had done and copy it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zambernardi1875
This is a pretty simple issue. Do we want to recycle more? Yes I think would be the answer. What are other countries who already recycle more doing? Ok, let’s copy that. Will business complain? Absolutely.
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How would that work?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Answer - I have no clue. 😂
Are you Lorna slater
All those folk that the papers reckoned would piling down to Carlisle and Berwick for cheaper booze, win squared for them :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
It's just what the rep for the manufacturers was saying in the interview .Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
I guess it balances out the everything is good because it's the SNP attitude, but I am merely going by what the actual people in industry are saying while you seem to be ignoring that. I guess time will tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
Because no matter what evidence there is and what so many other countries in the world do (even sometimes evidence associated with every single country that has ever done what Scotland proposes to do)… it just won’t work. Trust me. The SNP have lost the plot. Sturgeon is tying herself in knots. And the polls don’t show that this will work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
Haven’t you learned that yet?
I'm not ignoring it, I pointed out the Germans faced similar scaremongering from manufacturers and retailers prior to its introduction here, but despite all the predictions of doom it works. The streets are tidier, less plastic waste and even people making extra cash collecting discarded containers.Quote:
Originally Posted by James310
Do you mean actual people in the industry who don't want to do it?Quote:
Originally Posted by James310
No, if you listened to the various different interviews they want to do it but it a sensible and coordinated way. Which is exactly not being offered to them now. They asked for a blueprint last year and are still waiting for one. The Scottish Governments own report says it won't be ready.Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
It's so transparent what the motivation behind their stance is that any valid points they might make are redundant.Quote:
Originally Posted by WeeRussell
I’m sure everyone in the industries effected would have full confidence in the plan being put in place if all the questions and queries regarding the issue were answered. You can’t just say “well it works here” so shut it. Too many people on here just blindly backing the idea without any proper input because it’s an snp greens idea. No doubt the same posters who would be going bananas if the tories did it in England firstQuote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
I couldn’t agree more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
As long as people are filling their days and enjoying themselves I guess.
That's a handy device for avoiding fair questions isn't it? :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
If we can learn from Germany then fair dos. Did Lower Saxony roll out a model a few years ahead of the rest of the Bundesrepublik? What helped it work well, what was problematic? That sounds like a good starting point.
My only reason for picking Lower Saxony is that it seems roughly about the same population scale.
The Bundesländer all had different systems until it was made national law in 2003. Everybody has to drink, putting a deposit on containers gave people the motivation to return them, if you can pack your car or shopping bag with drinks to take home, then with a little finacial motivation you'll be able to pack them full on your way back to the shops.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye
Manufacturers will always complain about adding complexity to their business no matter how small an inconvenience it is, their first priority is profit and as the past has shown us, even at the cost to the environment.
The boy on the breakfast show used Germany as an example. 2% of bottles aren't returned each year in Germany it creates a 200 million euro bonus for retailers who put on the mark up. In Scotland it will be 200 million out of the companies pocket as they only get money back when it's returned, obviously less dueto population.
I'm all for the scheme though, although not for glass when we've got high rates due to council pickups. The problem is its clearly not ready and getting pushed through for some unknown reason
One theory is that the unspoken aim is to push out glass packaging, as the costs of managing glass recycling are so much higher.
Completely agree with the DRS policy intentions of increasing recycling rates, but personally I'd rather stick to the kerbside recycling collections. Here in East Lothian we get recycling collected weekly, with 4 separate containers for food waste, glass, plastic, and cardboard and I think it works well. (Although I am aware there were many moans on social media when the council changed to weekly collections with additional containers, with some suggesting it would put them off bothering, so maybe an approach with a financial incentive is needed).
The DRS approach may also mean more car journeys - I get my food shopping delivered, so I'd need to make additional trips to the shops to return glass / plastic bottles under the new scheme that I wouldn't otherwise be making.
I think the discussion here illustrates a key point. No matter how simple something looks to to fix, it inevitably isn't. The policy intentions are well meant. But the practicalities have lots of moving parts that will need lots of bedding in. It's just the way it is. I'll give an example of the complexity. Some on here have talked about old schemes where lemonade was delivered and empties picked up. Why not just do that? Well you can't mix up used and empties anymore in the same vehicle for health reasons. So developing the policy is the easy bit. The implementation is the hard bit.
I guess it’s about what gets the most recycling done?Quote:
Originally Posted by GlesgaeHibby
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That’s exactly right. This is a good policy idea. It’s all about delivery now. They need to make sure the implementation is smooth. If they have to delay to do that then fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
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I think this thread is filled with those who continually look for ways things can't be done rather than looking at ways things could happen for the benefit of everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
I can't think of anything that was worth it (for everyone) that is easy.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...62759643f9.jpg
Could be wasting our time discussing it mind you. Alistair Jack might just stop it anyway.
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Is this another s35?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
I think there's a bit of that, but it is legitimate to question as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
Surely the aim should be to find a solution to achieve the highest recycling rates possible, with the lowest carbon footprint?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Looks like we could learn a thing or two on recycling from Wales, as they have highest overall recycling rate in UK at 65% and are achieving almost 90% collection rates on glass without a DRS: https://www.britglass.org.uk/sites/d...28FINAL%29.pdf
Hopefully a pause of some sort can be agreed to give space to work through some of the practicalities of the scheme, and genuine concerns from businesses. There's going to be a massive amount of education / awareness raising to do too. I've only had a quick glance at this since it hit the press earlier this week and it seems that glass bottles are in scope, but jam jars etc. would be collected with kerbside recycling as normal. Similarly cans and plastic juice bottles are in scope, but milk bottles aren't.
I've been fairly unaware of the nuances of this scheme until now, arguable still - but I'm at least trying now.
What are the current recycling rates? I'm clearly quite naive in thinking they were quite high - my house recycling bin is rammed full every two weeks and can't think of many occasions where I wouldn't recycle a bottle/tin. :dunno: Maybe drinks consumed whilst out and about, but that's more down to the provision of recycling bins in public spaces than anything.
I don't fully understand why breweries etc are that concerned. Surely the scheme is for the retailer to administer and not for their concern? If they currently sell a 6-pack for £5 then they continue to do so but sainsburys also chuck in a £1.20 surcharge to the customer at the point of sale...
Final thought is how customers then get there money back. I'm imagining having to take a bag of bottles back out with me each time I do the weekly shop (not a huge endeavour really) and then getting a handful of 20p coins chucked at me. Hopefully there's a way to administer the amounts on to cards.
I'd agree that it seems well intended - even if I'm not currently aware of the necessity of it. A few tweaks/confirmations here and there and hopefully it's something that works out, certainly don't see why there's knicker twisting from UK Gov if they're likely to be introducing the same thing soon enough.
How many tins do I need to buy to offset the petrol cost of a drive to Berwick? :confused: :greengrin
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64622422
Slater admits she did not consult with any other country operating a similar scheme while attempting to get this botched attempt off the ground in Scotland.
Aside from the folly of trusting this numpty to do the job, Sturgeon continues to take a battering across the rest of the front pages.
There are penalties for producers if the don't have 90% of their packaging recycled.Quote:
Originally Posted by danhibees1875
Yet we have people saying it works in country X or Y so why won't it work here. Well because the people responsible didn't even bother looking at the models elsewhere where it works. Basic basic stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
Penalties for the producers?Quote:
Originally Posted by archie
That's a rogue one. Can't see the justification of that. :confused:
I think the long term aim could be to change packaging approaches?Quote:
Originally Posted by danhibees1875
Could they not just legislate for that? :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by archie
Cardboard cartons? Like the old school milk cartons, but with beer.
TBH I don't know. My initial thought is that would kill the sale of many drinks from outside Scotland, or at least those from smaller markets. Could you put prosecco in cardboard?Quote:
Originally Posted by danhibees1875
A major issue for breweries/distilleries/ other producers is admin and labelling products for different markets. Costs will be crippling to businesses who have to do different production runs(eg different barcode/labelling etc) just to have a product for the Scottish Market. We can expect to see reduced consumer choice as a result of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by danhibees1875
Small businesses will be harmed the most as large companies will have the ability to absorb costs and have people resource to take the time to undertake admin burden. So many smaller brewers are genuinely worried about the viabiity of their business.
On the consumer side it may be a mild inconvenience for some to have to pay extra up front for products, store containers in their home somewhere and then lug it all back to the shops, however for many this will be a considerable burden for a range of reasons. I think when consumers realise what is going to happen there will be further kick back.
The intentions of the scheme are noble of course and often Sweden is pointed as an exemplar of what can be achieved. But Sweden set their system up in 1984, when recycling was just starting to become more prevalent. We already have well established systems in place. There are so many problems with the scheme unfortuneately. Whilst some will be loving the problems due to their political affiliation, the reality is most of the dissent comes from genuine worry.
You're spot on with much of what you say there, particularly when it comes to smaller producers. Folk underestimate the cost of production runs, whatever the product, and a small batch run to differentiate for Scotland will simply be unsustainable for some under the current proposals.Quote:
Originally Posted by LaMotta
Are you saying Scotland just can’t do this? What is it about us that makes us different from Norway?Quote:
Originally Posted by LaMotta
In Norway they recycles 92% of drinks containers, we are below 50%. What is it about Scotland that we can’t do this?
https://www.tomra.com/en/discover/re...-return-scheme
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No, I'm saying its going to be incredibly difficult under its current proposed guise. And it will come with economic and social costs. There will always be an element of businesses hating legislative change and over predicting worst case doomsday scenarios, but the mood on this is particularly dark througout industry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Norway has had DRS system in place since the 1970's and it has evolved succesfully since then. Having well established practices in place here will inevitably make it more challenging.
DRS is happening no doubt. Will it happen this August? Whatever they do now Scot Gov will be hammered, if they bash on they will get grief from business, if they delay further then doesnt look good either. There are serious concerns right at the top of Government about how things are panning out so I suspect we will see some changes to proposals soon...
The labels will surely be different for export regardless.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by LaMotta
I still don't understand why it's on the producer though. These things should surely be implemented and administered by the retailer? A flaw, or something I'm misunderstanding, in the policy if that's not the case I would think.
I feel this whole thing should be entirely workable without impacting suppliers.
Agreed re consumers ("us") - a lot easier for some than it will be for others. Ultimately though, I think the majority of people should be able to bring that chore into their daily lives and doing so is just something we'll all need to grin and bear - I'm sure there will be more things, likely tougher pills to swallow, down the line. I accept it's easier for me to say being on the side of people who see it as likely being minimal burden!
That's government. There are no policies that please everybody. They'll be hammered on this, just as they have been on any other policy legislation. All media focus will be on the hammering, while disregarding the praise from those who approve of it. But that's been the case for the SNP since they came to government in 2007 and they've managed to remain firmly in place despite this.Quote:
Originally Posted by LaMotta
But if there's a Scotland-only packaging/labelling change required (to differentiate from UK-wide) as well as the logistics involved in factoring in the costs incumbent on them to comply with the Scottish initiative it will see some simply not bother as the overheads will wipe out any profits. As someone has posted earlier some craft brewers have already withdrawn their Scottish distribution.Quote:
Originally Posted by degenerated
Why does it have to be different? Packaging/labelling within the UK can have some text added to it to tell you that in Scotland it falls under whatever legislation. Hardly reinventing the wheel, no?Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!