(Soon to be) Former President Donald Trump

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Originally Posted by G B Young

I think that's a fair observation. I had no interest in 'protesting' yesterday but it doesn't mean I have much truck with Trump. As I said in an earlier post, though, I found the Scottish protests a bit baffling. 'Carnival of Resistance'? What does that mean? Also, why stand shouting outside Holyrood when Trump's visit involved nothing of a political nature? The guy was on the other side of the country and as far as I'm aware was here only to play golf at a course he happens to own. I'd hazard a guess that his investment in Turnberry has also done a fair bit for the local economy so I wonder how many locals were among those shouting from the beach.

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You're not wrong.

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Originally Posted by HomeTeam

No you will find that the media were predicting 250,000 in London you would be lucky if there were 40,000 protestors there. Also the media ran with stories about the protests all week in the run up to trumps visit and the numbers were still. low

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You are good at squirming. You said "the media are reporting the numbers of those who attended". Past Tense. I pointed to easily verifiable evidence that this is incorrect. You'e now saying it was the future predictions of attendance prior to the day. I've also done a quick check on the media reporting of numbers in the run uo. Virtually all are prefaced by a variation on the theme of "organisers expect up to... xxx". So again you're creating a conspiracy that simply doesn't exist.

It's moot anyway, and largely pointless to debate the make up of the protestors with you. Do you think Trump should have been protested against? Do you think his behaviour as President of the USA are more worthy of honour or disdain?

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Originally Posted by Golden Fleece

Turnberry existed before Trump bought it, any 'investment' will have had minimal effect on the local economy. The investment was to 'improve' the course.

A wee bit about the Trump investment...



https://www.newyorker.com/news-desk/...tish-golf-club

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...iness-37655823

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...-a7908001.html

And what about the 'investment' at Menie in Aberdeenshire?


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources...p_and_Scotland





https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-44795229

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I wouldn't be at all surprised if there are a lot of smoke and mirrors involved in the investment figures Trump throws about. I watched a TV series about him last year and much of his property empire in the US appears to have been built on little more than bravado.

However, IIRC Turnberry was effectively bankrupt after the global financial crash effectively put the previous owners (some sort of Dubai Government company I think) out of business so from the point of view of the Scottish economy it was no bad thing that Trump stepped in to snap it up. Anyone interested in golf knows it's a fantastic asset.

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Originally Posted by G B Young

I wouldn't be at all surprised if there are a lot of smoke and mirrors involved in the investment figures Trump throws about. I watched a TV series about him last year and much of his property empire in the US appears to have been built on little more than bravado.

However, IIRC Turnberry was effectively bankrupt after the global financial crash effectively put the previous owners (some sort of Dubai Government company I think) out of business so from the point of view of the Scottish economy it was no bad thing that Trump stepped in to snap it up. Anyone interested in golf knows it's a fantastic asset.

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But do they also know how much it is losing? not a good business model, a bit like The Rangers.

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias

I'm pretty comfortable that I focused on the right element. The totality of your argument was "Just want to say to the snowflakes, that was pitiful compared to the miners strike and Paris 68. Of course the didn't have as good snack stalls, so well done on that count."
So not really an argument, more a tool to get a sneery poke in. So well done on that count.

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Settle, I am trying to tell you that the protest wasn't very effective, and far from getting more people to engage with the issues, it rather turned a lot off.

I mean, it doesn't come across as very equitable, that people who use a deformed baby to attack one person, can't tolerate being called snowflakes.

Snowflakes, out of all the collective names that can be used is hardly very hurtful is it?

The thing is, I do care about the bigger issues if Trump and Brexit, what is hacking me off is how namby Pamby protest is playing right into the image his supporters have of his opponents.

Sorry, you learn to read the body language, listen to the spokespeople and see what reaction it's getting, and in this vase, I'm afraid it was silly.

Try listening to people who disagree, they aren't necessarily bad people.

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias

OK, for the sake of argument let's assume that everyone at the protest fell into the pigeonhole you set them. Can you clarify if it was the protestors that "put you off", rather the subject of the protest? If you had been assured that the body of the protest group had been made up of your mates and those who had in your view appropriate social credentials, would you have protested the visit of Donald Trump?

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See above it was the nature of the protest. If you want an audience to engage couch your message in their terms. It just seemed like a lot of smug sods congratulating each other on their superior morality.

By the way, play the ball, not the man.

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Originally Posted by Chic Murray

See above it was the nature of the protest. If you want an audience to engage couch your message in their terms. It just seemed like a lot of smug sods congratulating each other on their superior morality.

By the way, play the ball, not the man.

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To me, at least they got off the couch and chose to demonstrate against injustice ...rather than criticise those who do .

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Originally Posted by Sir David Gray

I don't actually have a problem with protests against Trump per se. As I said in my opening post, I'm no fan of his and I think some of the things he has said and reported to have done makes him unsuitable to hold the position of President of the USA. His conduct towards women as an example is shocking and certainly worthy of people showing their opposition.

However, in comparison with the leaders of the two nations I've mentioned I just think they are much more worthy of our disgust and I would just like to see as many people out on the streets the next time we welcome anyone like that to the UK as we saw over the last few days with Donald Trump.



I'm not doubting there were protests when the Chinese President visited but where was the media attention that the Trump visit has been getting? I don't remember much focus on it at all. China executes more people every year than every other country on the planet put together.

Their human rights record is disgraceful, people are regularly executed for very dubious reasons and people are imprisoned simply for challenging The Communist Party.

However our leaders seem to be quite happy to cosy up to them and don't appear to be questioning them on their human rights abuses.



Pretty much, yes. If these people are truly human rights activists and fighting inequality etc then why would you go to all that effort to oppose Trump but, by comparison, barely raise a whimper when two of the worst culprits of human rights abuses comes to town?

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Many people protest actively against Chinese human rights - seems to be an issue you care about - would you protest st about it ? Because those who were on the streets yesterday are at least showing the say No to Trump’s prejudice and division ....showing the government that what they are doing is seen as not acceptable ...

Ps. On the “lots of other leaders don’t get the same protests” type of point ...

A factor here is that for generations we have been used to a decent level of value and principle alignment between the US policies and that of the UK...the reason for a great deal of unrest against Trump is that it is seen as a highly divisive, protectionist and racist set of policies from him..it’s unusual for such a different policy from the leader of the US

KSA and China etc do attract protests at home and abroad - but there is never the expectations of shared values and belief system within their politics ..so it is often less
Mainstream

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Originally Posted by Chic Murray

Settle, I am trying to tell you that the protest wasn't very effective, and far from getting more people to engage with the issues, it rather turned a lot off.

I mean, it doesn't come across as very equitable, that people who use a deformed baby to attack one person, can't tolerate being called snowflakes.

Snowflakes, out of all the collective names that can be used is hardly very hurtful is it?

The thing is, I do care about the bigger issues if Trump and Brexit, what is hacking me off is how namby Pamby protest is playing right into the image his supporters have of his opponents.

Sorry, you learn to read the body language, listen to the spokespeople and see what reaction it's getting, and in this vase, I'm afraid it was silly.

Try listening to people who disagree, they aren't necessarily bad people.

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Now it it is getting silly. Were was there a deformed baby and how was it used?

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Originally Posted by Golden Fleece

Now it it is getting silly. Were was there a deformed baby and how was it used?

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Don't take me too seriously, but the Trump baby was a grotesque. It was not meant to look like a real baby, was it?

There were other examples of name calling. What's sauce for the house is sauce for the gander.

I mean, is snowflake that offensive anyway?

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Originally Posted by bigwheel

To me, at least they got off the couch and chose to demonstrate against injustice ...rather than criticise those who do .

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Maybe other people tackle injustice in other ways, and see the whole rent a mob thing a little superficial and pointless?

See what I mean about the moral superiority being used to justify what was, let's be honest, counterproductive at best, and pathetic protest

If people don't take the protesters seriously, then the message doesn't travel too far.

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Originally Posted by Hibbyradge

Aye, probably.

Monied people can't genuinely dislike mysoginist racists who grab women by the pussy and separate children from their parents and keep them in cages.

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The cages part actually started under the Obama administration....but he was the media goldenboy.
He also deported 8 million illegal immigrants,but again...didnt suit the media agenda.

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Originally Posted by Ryan69

The cages part actually started under the Obama administration....but he was the media goldenboy.
He also deported 8 million illegal immigrants,but again...didnt suit the media agenda.

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Every US President from Eisenhower to Nixon, committed more and more resources to fighting in Vietnam, even though they knew they could not win the war

People have to be more inquisitive and see beyond black hat, white hat. Trump is a liar, but Clinton was a liar too - most Yanks didn't like Trump, it's just they disliked Clinton more.

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Originally Posted by Chic Murray

Don't take me too seriously, but the Trump baby was a grotesque. It was not meant to look like a real baby, was it?

There were other examples of name calling. What's sauce for the house is sauce for the gander.

I mean, is snowflake that offensive anyway?

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Hang on. You are now saying there wasn't a deformed baby but you are saying that the balloon characature was grotesque. I think that was the point. It wasn't meant to be realistic, it was a bit of fun to portray Trump in the way he often acts.

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Originally Posted by Golden Fleece

Hang on. You are now saying there wasn't a deformed baby but you are saying that the balloon characature was grotesque. I think that was the point. It wasn't meant to be realistic, it was a bit of fun to portray Trump in the way he often acts.

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It was fun to poke fun at somebody else, but it's offensive to use an innocent word like snowflake to poke fun at the people poking fun.

Can't get my head round the double standards, and I'm not convinced I want such people speaking for me

Stop focussing on the word deformed. However should there be such a baby in existence, I think deformed would be a fair description.

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Originally Posted by Chic Murray

Maybe other people tackle injustice in other ways, and see the whole rent a mob thing a little superficial and pointless?

See what I mean about the moral superiority being used to justify what was, let's be honest, counterproductive at best, and pathetic protest

If people don't take the protesters seriously, then the message doesn't travel too far.

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Maybe they do...but if they do, I doubt they are the sort who call protesters pathetic......anyone who is willing to get out there and say.."No, not in my name" deserves respect in my view. Those who see it as counter productive in my experience don't care much about the cause...


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Originally Posted by bigwheel

Maybe they do...but if they do, I doubt they are the sort who call protesters pathetic......anyone who is willing to get out there and say.."No, not in my name" deserves respect in my view. Those who see it as counter productive in my experience don't care much about the cause...


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Your experience is limited then.

Do you want to effect change, or do you just want to be seen and heard?

Do you want to shape others views, or have you written those people off as pointless?

But, I hear what you're saying.

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Originally Posted by Ryan69

The cages part actually started under the Obama administration....but he was the media goldenboy.
He also deported 8 million illegal immigrants,but again...didnt suit the media agenda.

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Sort of...You are right to imply that there was a record number of audited deportations of undocumented immigrants under the Obama regime...figures though are 5M not 8M... what you don't share is that the rise was partly due to a change in the data collection method. An independent audit concluded that like for like it was less than both Bush and Clinton regimes (10M and 12M respectively). It has also been quite a media discussed topic...so your didn't suit media agenda isn't true.

What also needs to be noted is that Trump and Obama have targeted very different groups for deportation. Obama's policies specifically focussed on violent criminals and those posing national security threats.

Trump focus is much more generalist....his enforcement policy defines a broader range of nationalities and types to be targeted. This sweeping approach means many more immigrants are considered deportation priorities.



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Originally Posted by Chic Murray

Your experience is limited then.

Do you want to effect change, or do you just want to be seen and heard?

Do you want to shape others views, or have you written those people off as pointless?

But, I hear what you're saying.

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Chic.. your point about "should people do things to affect change" is a decent one to raise and explore....your dismissal of those who protest, such as yesterday, comes over as petty and disrespectful ...


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The way that the Greenpeace protesters got so near even with the police tip off is priceless. Donald where's yir bruisers?

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Originally Posted by bigwheel

Chic.. your point about "should people do things to affect change" is a decent one to raise and explore....your dismissal of those who protest, such as yesterday, comes over as petty and disrespectful ...


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Thanks, I can understand where you are coming from. It's ironic that the same charge can be put to the protesters.

As I've said, it's ok for them to lampoon others, but when they are the target it's not acceptable.

From where I am, they seem as childish and dishonest as Trump

But, they are allowed to make their point, just as they are allowed to be the subject of ridicule

At the end of the day I hope they can reflect on what they can do to get more people on board, and stop giving ammunition to the far right.

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Originally Posted by Chic Murray

Thanks, I can understand where you are coming from. It's ironic that the same charge can be put to the protesters.

As I've said, it's ok for them to lampoon others, but when they are the target it's not acceptable.

From where I am, they seem as childish and dishonest as Trump

But, they are allowed to make their point, just as they are allowed to be the subject of ridicule

At the end of the day I hope they can reflect on what they can do to get more people on board, and stop giving ammunition to the far right.

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People can feel free to voice any opinion they wish....pro or against....for me, I actually like the humour that has developed in the protest culture in recent times. May as well have some fun as you try to protest against the madness of the current world...it doesn't reduce their impact to me. As as for supplying ammunition. The far-right seem to be hugely sophisticated in creating their own, so don't see that as a material point...enjoy your Sunday!


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Originally Posted by bigwheel

People can feel free to voice any opinion they wish....pro or against....for me, I actually like the humour that has developed in the protest culture in recent times. May as well have some fun as you try to protest against the madness of the current world...it doesn't reduce their impact to me. As as for supplying ammunition. The far-right seem to be hugely sophisticated in creating their own, so don't see that as a material point...enjoy your Sunday!


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Interesting, it was satire that brought down the Soviet Union. Once people start laughing at you, the games up.

Still can't help thinking the protesters would be better off with signs with "down with this sort of thing" on them

The word is RUNT but my hand kept ****ing it up accidentally https://t.co/4IU3mTcCXy

https://janeygodley.podomatic.com/

Most recent one is worth a listen

Just seen this :

“Thing is, with Trump here in the UK he's not even the worst political leader in the UK at the moment, Theresa "weak and wobbly" May takes that honour hands down. I kind of wish the effort being put into protesting against Trump was protests against May. Protesting about Trump is pointless, it means nothing to him, doesn't effect him and certainly won't make him change in any way. Protests the size of the London one against May and the handling of Brexit would be far more productive.”

He has a point.

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Originally Posted by Chic Murray

Settle, I am trying to tell you that the protest wasn't very effective, and far from getting more people to engage with the issues, it rather turned a lot off.

I mean, it doesn't come across as very equitable, that people who use a deformed baby to attack one person, can't tolerate being called snowflakes.

Snowflakes, out of all the collective names that can be used is hardly very hurtful is it?

The thing is, I do care about the bigger issues if Trump and Brexit, what is hacking me off is how namby Pamby protest is playing right into the image his supporters have of his opponents.

Sorry, you learn to read the body language, listen to the spokespeople and see what reaction it's getting, and in this vase, I'm afraid it was silly.

Try listening to people who disagree, they aren't necessarily bad people.

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Who is offended at the term snowflake? Not me. My point was it is a term often used as a lazy generalisation to attempt to generate a reaction. You used it, and then started straw-manning the life out of it in subsequent posts.

You've dismissed the protests/protestors as "namby-pamby", "silly". "pitiful", "effete, pampered, and privileged", "smug sods", "childish and dishonest". Like other posters this thread is that you seem to be annoyed that people aren't protesting in the right way. What would have been the right thing to do in your mind if you were sufficiently moved by Trumps presence to want to mark it in some democratic show?

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Originally Posted by Jack

Just seen this :

“Thing is, with Trump here in the UK he's not even the worst political leader in the UK at the moment, Theresa "weak and wobbly" May takes that honour hands down. I kind of wish the effort being put into protesting against Trump was protests against May. Protesting about Trump is pointless, it means nothing to him, doesn't effect him and certainly won't make him change in any way. Protests the size of the London one against May and the handling of Brexit would be far more productive.”

He has a point.

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Please tell me that’s from Boris’ Twitter. (Insert big smiley here)

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias

Who is offended at the term snowflake? Not me. My point was it is a term often used as a lazy generalisation to attempt to generate a reaction. You used it, and then started straw-manning the life out of it in subsequent posts.

You've dismissed the protests/protestors as "namby-pamby", "silly". "pitiful", "effete, pampered, and privileged", "smug sods", "childish and dishonest". Like other posters this thread is that you seem to be annoyed that people aren't protesting in the right way. What would have been the right thing to do in your mind if you were sufficiently moved by Trumps presence to want to mark it in some democratic show?

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Well that's really for the organisers to reflect on, once they evaluate the exercise.

I hope they'd be mature enough to accept that when they hear the same story from enough people there might be something in it.

I'd start off by suggesting that not getting angry when people point out your failings would get more people to listen

I really wish you guys would stop making it so easy for the right. That protest just played right into their narrative that an out of touch elite is running the country

You snarling and shouting people down reinforces it. So, please accept, you had a piss poor turnout and the message didn't carry as well as it might have

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Originally Posted by Chic Murray

Well that's really for the organisers to reflect on, once they evaluate the exercise.

I hope they'd be mature enough to accept that when they hear the same story from enough people there might be something in it.

I'd start off by suggesting that not getting angry when people point out your failings would get more people to listen

I really wish you guys would stop making it so easy for the right. That protest just played right into their narrative that an out of touch elite is running the country

You snarling and shouting people down reinforces it. So, please accept, you had a piss poor turnout and the message didn't carry as well as it might have

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I didn't ask what you thought the organisers should do. I asked you what you would do/deem to be the correct type of protest, given your dismissal of what did take place.

As for making it easy for the right - and assuming you are not on that side of the spectrum - I tend to think that it is you, who by parroting their talking points, legitimises their stance. Arguing with the right is usually a futile exercise anyway.

By the way, how on earth do you get that a turnout that in your mind was so bad backs up the view that an elite is running things? You get that from a few vox pop interviews? And finally - I didn't have a piss-poor turnout. I had zero involvement and didn't attend. I do have respect for those who did, and think the pettiness of the criticism does you no favour.