Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

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31-05-2012, 01:07 PM
CropleyWasGod

Quote:

Originally Posted by reallapsedhibee

The reporting of Hector's attitude puzzles me.

On here the feeling has been very much that Hector doesn't do cut-price deals, doesn't do secret deals, doesn't do walking away, etc, which is always pleasing to read. Yet on Newsnight Scotchland this week two experts - one a weegie insolvency wallah and one beamed up from London city - both hinted that Hector would have been discussing the CVA proposal, and informally approving it, before it was made public.

I am beginning to wonder now whether the two experts were planted hun apologists. Not apologists of the normal Hately/Jardine/Goram slavering variety, but subtler plants.

It wouldn't surprise me if the admins had had meetings with HMRC to discuss their attitude to a CVA. That is the angle from which the two experts will be talking.

Equally so, however, HMRC have their own policies towards CVA's. If meetings have taken place, the admins will have been reminded of them.
31-05-2012, 01:15 PM
Hibbyradge

http://www.companyrescue.co.uk/compa...nt-service-cva

They (HMRC) WANT to help rescue viable companies!

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/insmanual/ins10103.htm

"The purpose of VAS is to

...enable HMRC to make a real contribution to the development of the rescue culture to which Government is firmly committed."
31-05-2012, 01:20 PM
HFC 0-7

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hibbyradge

http://www.companyrescue.co.uk/compa...nt-service-cva

They (HMRC) WANT to help rescue viable companies!

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/insmanual/ins10103.htm

"The purpose of VAS is to

...enable HMRC to make a real contribution to the development of the rescue culture to which Government is firmly committed."

Sounds to me like the CVA will be agreed should Greene be able to show that they will be able to pay their taxes in future.
31-05-2012, 01:26 PM
s.a.m

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hibbyradge

http://www.companyrescue.co.uk/compa...nt-service-cva

They (HMRC) WANT to help rescue viable companies!

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/insmanual/ins10103.htm

"The purpose of VAS is to

...enable HMRC to make a real contribution to the development of the rescue culture to which Government is firmly committed."

Is there not an issue of scale (and willfulness) here, though?
31-05-2012, 01:26 PM
CropleyWasGod

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hibbyradge

http://www.companyrescue.co.uk/compa...nt-service-cva

They (HMRC) WANT to help rescue viable companies!

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/insmanual/ins10103.htm

"The purpose of VAS is to

...enable HMRC to make a real contribution to the development of the rescue culture to which Government is firmly committed."

I wouldn't place too much reliance on the Company Rescue website. They are a commercial organisation, selling their own services.

It is true, however, that HMRC would prefer a company to survive, purely from the angle of protection of future revenue. However, they do have their own policies on whether they will support CVA's. They are set out somewhere on line, which I posted several 100 pages ago.... I'll find em again. That said, their current policy is not to support football clubs' CVA's.
31-05-2012, 01:26 PM
blackpoolhibs

Surely if HMRC give in, and accept this 9p in the pound robbery, it will give out the wrong signals and give carte blanche to every other company/football club to do the same?

This is such a high profile case, i'd have thought they would need to make a point of not settling for less than they were due, just to make an example.

And show anyone else thinking about going down this route, this is what will happen.
31-05-2012, 01:33 PM
Cropley10

Quote:

Originally Posted by hibs13681

Sounds to me like the CVA will be agreed should Greene be able to show that they will be able to pay their taxes in future.

So simply do 'walking away' from tens of millions in unpaid taxes, because your newco will, in future, pay its taxes?

So to any business struggling right now simply withhold your PAYE/NIC and do a few pence in the pins deal later?

Is that what you think HMRC will do.

There is NOTHING in the CVA for creditors and it won't be accepted. D&P are taking £5.5m out before Hector gets anywhere near it.
31-05-2012, 01:34 PM
Hibbyradge

Quote:

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

It is true, however, that HMRC would prefer a company to survive, purely from the angle of protection of future revenue. However, they do have their own policies on whether they will support CVA's. They are set out somewhere on line, which I posted several 100 pages ago.... I'll find em again. That said, their current policy is not to support football clubs' CVA's.

Obvioulsy, I didn't see that post. Sorry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

That said, their current policy is not to support football clubs' CVA's.

Is that a stated policy, or inferred/deduced?
31-05-2012, 01:37 PM
Barney McGrew

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hibbyradge

Is that a stated policy, or inferred/deduced?

IIRC, HMRC have never accepted a CVA from any football club so far.
31-05-2012, 01:39 PM
PatHead

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs

Surely if HMRC give in, and accept this 9p in the pound robbery, it will give out the wrong signals and give carte blanche to every other company/football club to do the same?

This is such a high profile case, i'd have thought they would need to make a point of not settling for less than they were due, just to make an example.

And show anyone else thinking about going down this route, this is what will happen.

Also remember there is no guarantee that the CVA will be as high as 9p in the pound. Does this not depend on the winning of the Collyer Bristow case.

On a seperate note someone in the pub last night asked (probably half in jest) if they could just strip parts of Ibrox and let a salvage yard have a field day-all these oak panels, brass fittings, light fittings etc and then sell of the hundreds of trophies won by the "most successful club in the world" to raise funds at auction. Thinking about it that could raise a wad of money. Why wouldn't the administrators/liquidators do that?
31-05-2012, 01:39 PM
CropleyWasGod

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hibbyradge

Obvioulsy, I didn't see that post. Sorry.

Is that a stated policy, or inferred/deduced?

It's been deduced more than stated, I think, but it's become one of those things that has been taken as fact the more it's said. (a bit like Hibs.net:greengrin).

The latest public statement I have seen was in April, in the Port Vale case. http://www.thisisstaffordshire.co.uk...ail/story.html

The HMRC statement was... "HMRC has a long-standing policy that we will not support a CVA which seeks to give preference to one class of unsecured creditor over another."

Now, that is because there is the football creditor rule in England, which doesn't apply in Scotland. I am not sure what HMRC did in the other football administrations in Scotland, but one can see the situation where HMRC might just approve this one if all of their conditions are met.
31-05-2012, 01:40 PM
HFC 0-7

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cropley10

So simply do 'walking away' from tens of millions in unpaid taxes, because your newco will, in future, pay its taxes?

So to any business struggling right now simply withhold your PAYE/NIC and do a few pence in the pins deal later?

Is that what you think HMRC will do.

There is NOTHING in the CVA for creditors and it won't be accepted. D&P are taking £5.5m out before Hector gets anywhere near it.

So whats the alternative? D&P have already said they will be selling the assetts to Greene at a price less than what is offered in the CVA should the CVA be rejected - that means less money. There has been nothing from anyone on how much they could get from the assetts apart from Greene. If the CVA is rejected I would expect the new co to be set up and assetts shifted quickly leaving a very small pot.
31-05-2012, 01:49 PM
PatHead

Notice Rangers have now sent in documents for duall tax case. Call me a cynic but funny how they arrive the day after the SPL meeting.

http://sport.stv.tv/football/104158-...investigation/
31-05-2012, 02:45 PM
WindyMiller

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim44

Andy Goram defending Rangers is akin to Rommel defending the Third Reich.

You do Rommel a great disservice their.
31-05-2012, 02:46 PM
CropleyWasGod

As promised, here is the HMRC list of conditions for supporting a CVA.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/helpsheets/vas-factsheet.pdf

There are a few nasties in there that might sink RFC.
31-05-2012, 02:51 PM
Andy74

Quote:

Originally Posted by WindyMiller

You do Rommel a great disservice their.

He may have disagreed with certain of Hitler's methods but he played a key role in the steamrollering of much of Europe and Africa.
31-05-2012, 02:55 PM
WindyMiller

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy74

He may have disagreed with certain of Hitler's methods but he played a key role in the steamrollering of much of Europe and Africa.

I would still compare him favourably with Andy Goram.
:cb
31-05-2012, 03:04 PM
jgl07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy74

He may have disagreed with certain of Hitler's methods but he played a key role in the steamrollering of much of Europe and Africa.

Rommel was a ardent supporter of Hitler for much of the war. True he did fall out when he considered that that Hitler's blunders were going to cost Germany the war.

The arch-Nazi historian David Irving considered Rommel to be the most-Nazi of all the High Command.
31-05-2012, 03:17 PM
CropleyWasGod

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgl07

Rommel was a ardent supporter of Hitler for much of the war. True he did fall out when he considered that that Hitler's blunders were going to cost Germany the war.

The arch-Nazi historian David Irving considered Rommel to be the most-Nazi of all the High Command.

This thread really does have everything. :not worth
31-05-2012, 03:23 PM
At The Edge

Now i'm really lost.....
Rommel is somehow involved in the current Rangers fiasco or have i got my wires crossed....................?

:greengrin
31-05-2012, 03:25 PM
Andy74

Quote:

Originally Posted by At The Edge

Now i'm really lost.....
Rommel is somehow involved in the current Rangers fiasco or have i got my wires crossed....................?

:greengrin

Once a Hun always a Hun.

Oops, can I be arrested for that these days?
31-05-2012, 03:25 PM
ancienthibby

Another vote defects

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatHead

Notice Rangers have now sent in documents for duall tax case. Call me a cynic but funny how they arrive the day after the SPL meeting.

http://sport.stv.tv/football/104158-...investigation/

Been on Beeb radio this p.m., but not on the website as yet, that ICT chairman has now joined the band of critics re HunCo taking their appeal to the Court of Session.

Keep going like this and they'll have nae friends at all on the SFA Board.

Also sends out a strong message to Reagan.:cb
31-05-2012, 03:25 PM
jgl07

Quote:

Originally Posted by At The Edge

Now i'm really lost.....
Rommel is somehow involved in the current Rangers fiasco or have i got my wires crossed....................?

:greengrin

But his mate Andy Goram is!
31-05-2012, 03:42 PM
Bostonhibby

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgl07

Rommel was a ardent supporter of Hitler for much of the war. True he did fall out when he considered that that Hitler's blunders were going to cost Germany the war.

The arch-Nazi historian David Irving considered Rommel to be the most-Nazi of all the High Command.

:agree: Big boots, troosers tucked into them, Iron Cross, Oak leaf clusters, Silly walk, absolutely no compassion.....in fact the works - he was a Nazi all right otherwise Hitler would never have let him point all those bloody big guns at all those foreigners :wink:
31-05-2012, 03:43 PM
PeeJay

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgl07

Rommel was a ardent supporter of Hitler for much of the war. True he did fall out when he considered that that Hitler's blunders were going to cost Germany the war.

The arch-Nazi historian David Irving considered Rommel to be the most-Nazi of all the High Command.

One has to wonder: would Irving really know about this? After all the guy claims there wasn't a holocaust, so if he can somehow conspire to miss that as an "arch Nazi historian" - how reliable are his views on old Rommel and what he was up to at any given time! :faf:

AFAIK - Irving is no longer considered to be a historian (if he ever was) - this actually goes quite well with this thread about a football club which I no longer consider to be a football club..
31-05-2012, 04:00 PM
StevieC

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatHead

Also remember there is no guarantee that the CVA will be as high as 9p in the pound. Does this not depend on the winning of the Collyer Bristow case.

Exactly. No idea where this 9p in the pound is coming from. I reckon at best it will be 3p in the pound and more likely to be around 1p (based on the BTC ruling going against Rangers).
31-05-2012, 04:02 PM
CropleyWasGod

Quote:

Originally Posted by StevieC

Exactly. No idea where this 9p in the pound is coming from. I reckon at best it will be 3p in the pound and more likely to be around 1p (based on the BTC ruling going against Rangers).

BOOOOOO.... just beat it with your technical stuff. Let's get back to the Rommel of the Huns stories...
31-05-2012, 04:02 PM
son of haggart

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeeJay

One has to wonder: would Irving really know about this? After all the guy claims there wasn't a holocaust, so if he can somehow conspire to miss that as an "arch Nazi historian" - how reliable are his views on old Rommel and what he was up to at any given time! :faf:

AFAIK - Irving is no longer considered to be a historian (if he ever was) - this actually goes quite well with this thread about a football club which I no longer consider to be a football club..

This would be the Rommell who urged Hitler to end the war and told Speidel (re Hitler) "I have given him his last chance. If he does not take it we will act" and committed suicide to avoid being tried and executed for high treason against the Nazi state?

Rommell would have done the right thing re the Huns:wink:
31-05-2012, 04:08 PM
PeeJay

[QUOTE=son of haggart;3251005]This would be the Rommell who urged Hitler to end the war and told Speidel (re Hitler) "I have given him his last chance. If he does not take it we will act" and committed suicide to avoid being tried and executed for high treason against the Nazi state?

Rommell would have done the right thing re the Huns:wink:[/QUOTE]

Sure - there are lots of questions/doubts regarding old Rommel and his Nazi allegiance - or his participation in the plot against H - but the idiot Irving is a wrong reference to pull out of the hat... IMO he is as competent as the clowns in the SFA/SPL or the administrators ...
31-05-2012, 04:09 PM
Bostonhibby

1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by son of haggart

This would be the Rommell who urged Hitler to end the war and told Speidel (re Hitler) "I have given him his last chance. If he does not take it we will act" and committed suicide to avoid being tried and executed for high treason against the Nazi state?

Rommell would have done the right thing re the Huns:wink:

:agree: He certainly would have - nae problem clearing the site for Tesco.

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