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Richard Wilson discussing the possible departure of Warby.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34980312
" there has been no official contact between Rangers and Fulham ....... Yet ! "
Do you think the BBC lamb muncher could be softening up the hoards for a shock announcement ? :greengrin
The inquest is still going on?????????Quote:
Originally Posted by hibs0666
It's not bloodlust. All we ask for is a FULL investigation into the whole sorry saga with all documents made available and all parties involved coming clean.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smartie
If that leads to title stripping so be it.
After that is done, then everyone can move on.
While we see one club being given immunity from a full investigation, there is no way the game will ever move on.
The ONLY way for this to end and for people to move on is for the TRUTH to come out and the people involved to be held responsible. None of that can happen until there is a proper transparent investigation into what happened.
Then we will all move on.
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The consequences of the cheating for old hun and new hun are clear by now surely?Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
A full investigation cannot happen as large parts of the whole sorry saga are now in legal hands, and may remain so for years to come.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Meanwhile our game remains in some mad stasis at a time when radical change its urgently required. Really sad.
This 100%Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
do we think it will happen...... I doubt it
Dammit you make some good points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smartie
But IMO reform of Scottish football has barely started. Given half a chance, the SFA and SPFL will slip back into the old ways of favouring the big boys while handing out draconian punishments to smaller clubs for the slightest transgression.
League reconstruction, football pyramid, facilities, youth set-ups, the National side, etc... so much work to do and it's barely started. Making changes is impossible if the two biggest clubs have an effective veto on every decision.
This is why it's important. We need to know - be absolutely sure - that the authorities will run the game for the benefit of everybody and investigate allegations of wrong doing without fear or favour.
If the Old Firm rise to dominate again in a fair and transparent set up, so be it. At least we will know it is a level(ish) playing field.
We are a long way from that point - in fact, earlier this year, the SFA approved Dave King as fit and proper to run a football club... Does that sound like lessons have been learned?
That is why the investigations must continue, because we are not out of the woods yet. We must know the rules are applied fairly. If that logic leads to titles being stripped, then so be it.
I can think of only 2 good reasons why - if Rangers are found to have gained an unfair advantage by deliberately concealing required documents from the League - they should not have titles removed:
1. Celtc fans will become insufferable.
2. The whataboutery might last for a decade.
But Celtc fans already are, and on the 2nd point, Hearts will squirm lest some dirty secrets are found in their closet. So all good :wink:
Quote:
Originally Posted by hibs0666
That's not really an answer is it, it's just (not) answering a question with another question.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibs0666
I don't think the cheating has been dealt with. If there was cheating in place when titles were won then those titles were tainted, but that has yet to be dealt with.
If the old Huns died (and became the corpse you referred to) then there would be no ambiguity re the old club and its history having a line drawn under it. Yet new huns still perpetuate the myth that their history is unbroken.
So, to repeat the question, in what way do you believe that the cheating has already been dealt with?
Right mate Rangers were liquidated by their own Directors who couldn't afford to run the club any longer.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibs0666
I Want Justice for the cheating that was done over the years that the EBT's were being handed out to players that YOUR TEAM could not afford to pay unless by deceit and illegal means.
My Team Hibs was done out of payments for placement where they came in the league because YOUR TEAM Rangers was fielding illegal players.why was it illegal because the payments were not logged with the SFA.
Without being cheeky or offensive run along to The Rangers fanzine and spout yer bile there.
Disclaimer if your not a The Rangers fan, a Jambo then apologies for calling you one, but as God is my judge I really think you are
GGTTH
I don't think there's really much chance of a shock announcement but I'm surprised that Warburton hasn't quashed the rumours by saying he is catagorically staying with Sevco for the forseeable future. Maybe he is sticking to his 'respect' fixation and is waiting for a concrete move by Fulham before telling them to stuff it.Quote:
Originally Posted by greenginger
HIS TEAM is Hibs.Quote:
Originally Posted by southern hibby
Nah your're clueless I'm afraid mate, and I need absolutely no lessons from you on how to support my club. I will be at the Morton game this weekend, just as I was at Alloa previously, just as I was standing behind the goals in Dumfries before that. Then there's the three (yes 3) 0-3's at Ibrox that I've had the privilege of attending.Quote:
Originally Posted by southern hibby
There's also my west stand season ticket. Not forgetting the east stand stone that I recently bought. Or my Hibs TV subscription. My Hibs Lotto subscription might even come up one of these times, although I'm not expecting any return from my HSL payments.
Can you say the same? Good on you if you can.
Indeed I know personally some of the guys with whom I disagree on this particular thread. However, unlike you, I have respect the person even if I disagree with their views. Even you.
Scuse me, I can fight my own corner ya bam. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by matty_f
I may be wrong but I think that you, me, Jack and Stewart Crowther were the only four Hibbys one Tuesday afternoon at Barrowfield when you were filiming a reseve game against the tims. Or maybe I was a double agent and was spying for the huns. :wink:
I don't think that was me unless it was an under 19's game! :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by hibs0666
It might well have been actually now that you mention it - must have been the league and cup double season.Quote:
Originally Posted by matty_f
:agree: would have been.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibs0666
Anyway it appears that bits of Ibrox are falling off as those in the Lower Sandy Jardine Stand had to be moved to the Broomiloan.
Apparently bits of the stadium were swinging above the supporters.
What happens if they have the added expense of changing a lightbulb?
To me this is not an anti Rangers crusade or bloodlust that many are now calling it but as more and more is discovered about what went on then a sense of justice and integrity starts to come into it.
When the truth and pure facts are presented to all things Rangers, the Scottish Footballing bodies and to an extent the media, it's either their reaction, their silence or their lack of reporting that will not make this sorry tale move on.
This is NOT a witch hunt, this NOT some petty point scoring between rival football clubs and fans alike and this is certainly NOT a bloodlust to destroy Rangers. We simply want a fair outcome to what now is transpiring to be one world football's biggest frauds which implicates the very top of our organisation which are trusted in looking after the integrity of our national sport.
This rolling stone has gathered so much pace that this will not go away anytime soon and with the future court cases, the truth will come out and those involved will be punished. They simply have to.
Glory hunter.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibs0666
Quote:
Originally Posted by hibs0666
An investigation into past wrongdoings by people currently in power. An enforcement of the rules in a fair and even manner, applied equally to all clubs, large or small.
All to send out a message that future shenanigans of this lknd will not be tolerated.
Is that really a problem?
Fit and proper test passed:greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by hibs0666
are you the guy that used to sit in the old main stand with the rattle,singing"Hibernian,Hibernian ra,ra,ra":flag:
none of them think they have, so they obviously don't think they've been punished for it themselves? = ineffective punishment!Quote:
Originally Posted by hibs0666
On your last point, that is EXACTLY what we need! However, to do it we need to resolve all those pesky outstanding issues (so do the required navel gazing quicker! :wink: )
And I wonder who picked up the phone and ordered them to do that ??.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaster
Agree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Libby Hibby
I have respected the person I just don't get why a Hibs fan would agressively chase this with other Hibs fans like you do.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibs0666
As I said if your a Hibsfan ( and I will apologise if you are )then that's fine but maybe if you answered some of the questions on here you were asked. I for one find you very confusing going on about Rangers being punished, they have not been in my eyes.
As far as I'm concerned they went into liquidation as I said that was they're fault not a punishment. They lost their license a new team applied for the license and got it not the old team.
The old Rangers in my eyes need agressively chased through the courts as has happened and punished the fans of both teams have not under any circumstances given any remorse about what their old club did and new club mentality is the same as the old.
Make No Mistake if The old Rangers are not punished they will keep on doing this until they are still bringing Scottish football into disrepute and will end up going back into Scottish football and because they have not been punished ( a £250,000 fine that's never been paid is not a punishment, it's another sign of their contempt) and it will be everyone's fault on here.
As for personally artacking you on here I personally don't think I did I feel
I aggressively put my point of view across that differs from yours but it's ok for you to do that?
So if I offended I will publicly apologise now online ( I sir do apologise for calling you a Rangers fan) even though I said I believe you to be one or a Jambo. Mate I've been a Hibs fan all my life and I go to every game home away the lot but you are the first Hibs fan that has in my knowledge stuck up for them. Also in one of your post back earlier you called Celtic the tims there's not many Hibs fans I know that have called them that in years.
GGTTH
Hibs0666 you may have missed this one but I agree with the above. Our game has got far more competitive and no longer is it just the OF dominating. The tragic thing is we've been down here for two seasons not taking advantage of it (bloody butcher!!)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr White
As said a few pages back, this feels to me very watergate-esque at this stage.
Some people were happy after the arrests were made following the breakin at the DNC HQ.
A long long time later, after numerous court cases, the scandal took down the top man....
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watergate_scandal
I just wish that a small percentage of the effort that goes into investigating/ discussing the RIPFC debacle would go into looking in depth at the dodgy dealings of our neighbours. Nothing bugs me more than hearing a yam taking the moral high ground on this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kavinho
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brunswickbill
I'll assume that's a generalisation as opposed to any accusation of yammery on my part!!
Agreed though.. My yam mates generally know to keep a bit quiet on this topic with me!
House of cards though... enough digging and the spotlight will eventually shine on the Yams. I'm not giving up hope on that yet!
Whenever I see a yam looking for the moral high-ground I just laugh or snort disdainfully. I've given up on explaining that the only difference between them is the old Rangers died during the season while hertz lied about their situation to avoid relegation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brunswickbill
This is where whataboutery will come into play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kavinho
Keep up the pressure on the died Huns and eventually they will start their 'What about Romanov funnelling player payments through Lithuania? Were they all properly declared to the SPL?'
Will be worrying for the Yams of course... but hey ho. :wink:
Again you say they are dead. More than once you've been corrected on this but seem to willfully ignore the fact that they are not dead, just in liquidation.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibs0666
A generalisation - no yammery implied.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kavinho
I've got a different opinion that's all. In my opinion Scottish football needs to focus its efforts on the future not on naval gazing about the past. I hear people saying that we need to get to the bottom of past transgressions to create a better future. However, in my opinion, we already know everything we need to know from this sorry episode.Quote:
Originally Posted by southern hibby
All I can say, once again, is that:Quote:
As I said if your a Hibsfan ( and I will apologise if you are )then that's fine but maybe if you answered some of the questions on here you were asked. I for one find you very confusing going on about Rangers being punished, they have not been in my eyes.
a) the old club is now deid - what more can you do to a corpse?
b) the new club has been fined for the failure to disclose side letters - you might not like the punishment, but there is no point in arguing that there has been no punishment
c) the new club has not played in top-flight football for 4 seasons - same as above
And I don't care about your apology to be honest - you shot from the hip without knowing the first thing about me and that is just rank bad patter.
What do you want to achieve by chasing old Rangers through the courts - it is already deid! And the characters involved in this sorry saga will have their days in court soon. Again - what more do you want beyond what is already happening?Quote:
As far as I'm concerned they went into liquidation as I said that was they're fault not a punishment. They lost their license a new team applied for the license and got it not the old team.
The old Rangers in my eyes need agressively chased through the courts as has happened and punished the fans of both teams have not under any circumstances given any remorse about what their old club did and new club mentality is the same as the old.
The old Rangers cannot keep doing anything - it's deid! Going forward is much more important. Unfortunately we would all rather focus on the past rather then focus our energies on making Scottish football better.Quote:
Make No Mistake if The old Rangers are not punished they will keep on doing this until they are still bringing Scottish football into disrepute and will end up going back into Scottish football and because they have not been punished ( a £250,000 fine that's never been paid is not a punishment, it's another sign of their contempt) and it will be everyone's fault on here.
Jeezo I'm not sticking up for that mob and, believe me, there is nothing better than sticking it up them. However, this is now a little historic sideshow when compared to the real problems afflicting our game in the here and now, and that need to be addressed with urgency.Quote:
As for personally artacking you on here I personally don't think I did I feel
I aggressively put my point of view across that differs from yours but it's ok for you to do that?
So if I offended I will publicly apologise now online ( I sir do apologise for calling you a Rangers fan) even though I said I believe you to be one or a Jambo. Mate I've been a Hibs fan all my life and I go to every game home away the lot but you are the first Hibs fan that has in my knowledge stuck up for them. Also in one of your post back earlier you called Celtic the tims there's not many Hibs fans I know that have called them that in years.
In law and business, liquidation is the process by which a company (or part of a company) is brought to an end, and the assets and property of the company are redistributed. Liquidation is also sometimes referred to as winding-up or dissolution, although dissolution technically refers to the last stage of liquidation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kato
I think Kato means that the company who formerly ran the football club are "in liquidation", but not yet liquidated. In other words, that company still exists, and will continue to do so for the time being. They're certainly not "deid".Quote:
Originally Posted by hibs0666
Old Rangers is not trading, nor is it playing football matches. It will never trade again and will never play another football match. It's deid to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
You asked what we can do to a died club, we can actively chase it through the SFA so that clarity can be sought to avoid this happening again to Scottish football. Make no mistake as I said The Rangers fans have no distinction between old and new club just that they are the same. This if not addressed will lead to possibly them or other clubs doing the same again.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibs0666
I agree they have been punished but by not excepting punishment ie payment then as far as I am concerned they have not excepted punishment.
As for shooting from the hip, sorry but if you read my post I left a disclaimer. As I have said it was my opinion just as you are giving your opinion about The Rangers. If you don't want to except my opinion or listen to it that's fine but that means that anyone else does not need to listen to yours either.
I've listened to it and don't agree with it but that's my porogitive as it is with yours to either listen or not.
I opoligised if I offended because no offence was meant however I still am untitled to my opinions and point of views as it is yours to except or not.
GGTTH
My issue with 666's statements is the fact that not only do I want the hun dead, I want their hordes to know it too.
Are you absolutely certain that the old company will never trade again? Do you know how the issue of the ownership of the assets will play out?Quote:
Originally Posted by hibs0666
And, at the risk of widening this to yet another "new club/old club" debate, there are those (myself included) who are of the opinion that the club is still alive, both legally and emotionally. However, as I've often said, that debate will almost certainly never be settled.
No bother. We agree to disagree and nothing wrong with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by southern hibby
...a company can also be brought out of liquidation.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibs0666
I'm really worried about these world class players rangers are looking to bring in in January!! :wink:
Quote:
Rangers have stepped up their interest in Accrington Stanley pair Matt Crooks and Josh Windass
Crooks and Windass - suits them.Quote:
Originally Posted by CallumLaidlaw
I think you are missing a major point here. This purging of our game can and must go much deeper than whether or not there is a Rangers. The whole management structure of our game has exposed itself to allegations of deep rooted corruption, specifically to favour the advancement of two clubs. By ensuring that all of this comes out in the open we have a fighting chance of creating a level playing field in the game for the first time in yours or my lifetime. Painful though it might be I firmly believe that this is our once in a lifetime opportunity to rid our game of a duopoly spoilling the game for the majority. Healthy honest competition is a spectator sport and an entertainment that has attracted tens of thousands in the past and can again. A business run by a corrupt organisation with self interest at its heart may just have brought our game to the brink of extinction and many still do not see that.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibs0666
It is what has gone on in the past that is killing our game and whether you intend to or not you appear to be suggesting that we just let it go, suck it up and allow it to carry on as before. Well not for me.
Now if the SFA and SPFL came out and threw their hand up, said that a line was drawn and that they accepted past practice was unacceptable, with assurances that the field would be level going forward, then I think I could move on regardless of whether there was retrospective punishment. Sadly I think we need the present painful process to get us there.
:aok:Quote:
Originally Posted by Brunswickbill
I'm suggesting that we already know there are problems, that we absolutely cannot go on as before and we would be far better off spending our time shaping the to-be, rather than undertaking yet more detailed analysis of the as-is.Quote:
Originally Posted by CentreLine
The detailed analysis is still going through the courts and still be misinterpreted by the media so it's perfectly natural that people will discuss what is actually still ongoing.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibs0666
There's also my west stand season ticket. Not forgetting the east stand stone that I recently bought. Or my Hibs TV subscription. My Hibs Lotto subscription might even come up one of these times, although I'm not expecting any return from my HSL payments.
I've never challenged the fact you're genuine hence my continuing incredulity at your stance. You choose to accept one part of LNS judgement, the £250k ( unpaid ) fine, but not his statement that The Rangers are the same club! You can't really rely on part of his report to support your argument but ignore the major part that doesn't! About 3 pages ( seems like a week ago ) back I said I agreed your points 1 & 2, that was a typo, I meant 2 & 3, ie Sevco must pay the fine now & a proper system of governance must be established. I worked in financial governance for many years & our starting point was almost always a look back at prior failures. That's why the same thing should happen with this sorry saga including a review of the cover-up which was the LNS report. It's not just punishment for The Rangers that I want, I think it's essential that the roles played by people such as Campbell Ogilvie, Regan, Doncaster et al be exposed to proper scrutiny & censure/action if appropriate.
PS, The £250k fine was imposed on The Rangers by LNS for failing to declare side letters to what was at that time deemed to be a legal tax avoidance scheme. ( or rather Oldco were deemed to have been in compliance with the rules of such a scheme, which they clearly were not - the loans were never intended to be repaid ). In light of the current status of EBT's would you accept that punishment for The Rangers could & should have been greater? Mind you, as they continue not to pay the £250k, & how do they get away with that?, it probably doesn't matter. As I said earlier true Armageddon occurs when the rule of law breaks down & that's been pretty much the attitude of The Rangers for the last 3 years.
But you're not offering a way to achieve that. Simply putting our head in the sand and saying "well that was all a bit dodgy" then carrying on as before cannot be an option. The beaks have had nothing to say on this and if they say and do nothing then they must be made to do soQuote:
Originally Posted by hibs0666
http://www.sportsmole.co.uk/football/fulham/news/report-fulham-target-mark-warburton_260280.html#$$nyqbp3&&TXleTJjrEeWYDxLiLC u6pw$$
I hope they keep stirring it.
I agree with that. As is known I have absolutely no time for the Phil McGobbledygooks of this world and the other Sellik minded bigots who are trying to sell me their agenda but as a whole I would suggest Scottish football needs rigourous financial controls put in place far more than it needs more thashing of the Rangers panto.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibs0666
I'd suggest the following could be a start.
1) Each club should aim to break even every year. Clubs which continually post losses year on year without address to point 2 shall be called before the SFA/SPFL where points deductions may apply the next season.
2) Existing bank debts and loansheld by clubs should be actively paid down and progress should be seen year on year in this area. Failure to address points 1 and 2 shall result in automatic relegation.
3) Clubs which do not submit audited accounts and are also in breach or points 1 and 2 shall be automatically relegated to the bottom tier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brog
Some excellent points Brog...
Cherry picking from the LNS ruling being the stand out, and that that (unpaid) punishment should (for me) be upgraded if the current EBT decision (superceeding LNS) is upheld following the appeal being heard.
But I far more want to see the likes of Sandy Bryson, who limited the scope of the LNS enquiry and those above him who directed that, being publicly questioned as to why they felt it the right thing to do..
In my view, and with the information currently out in the open, I can't see how is tenable to proceed with the same people in charge..
Can i liken it to Marlin fishing, and the whoppers just been hooked, and so far theres been a little bit of wrestling with the fish on the line.. who's twisting and turning to get away
Do you say 'that's enough now, I caught the fish', or do you keep at it til you can lift it into the boat? If you cut the line now, that opportunity to land the whopper is gone forever
the current processes have to be seen through. We're no where near a stage where we can put this all in the past.
.....And that's nothing to do with Rangers now!!!
The gap between the remaining OF club and the leading non-OF clubs is smaller than it's been for 20+years. Unless/until this gap gets small enough that a club like ours has some small hope, albeit a tiny one, of bridging it over the course of some cup ties or a league season, then we don't really have a professional game worth the candle.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibs0666
These are great theoretically, but Id say impractical and difficult to implement.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyM_1875
A club stretches itself under pressure to stay competitive, avoid relegation or whatever, and the sanction youatsuggesting is to cut out further income and potentially force insolvency due to a demotion to Tier4.
Not saying strict sanctions shouldn't be in place, but the clubs all have to sign in for it in the first place!
Not to mention as has been pointed out on many occasions, ( and probably again soon! ) it is acceptable practice for a business to run at a loss for a number of years. We've done it ourselves now for a bit in our efforts to cope with the drop in income
Hibs 0666 is arguing for something that cannot actually be stopped even if we wanted it to. There are multiple court cases ongoing which will bring more revelations (he wrong in asserting that we already know everything) that will fuel this fire. The only way this can be stopped is with a full a and transparent investigation into the corruption of our game.
We can't move on until it's done.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Borrowing is not income.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kavinho
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
And LL :aok:Quote:
Originally Posted by brog
Apparently is if you are borrowing from an EBT?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
[QUOTE=Ozyhibby;4515304]Borrowing is not income.
Yes thank you. I'm aware. ..
An enforced drop to the4th tier would result in less income, requiring more borrowing, and potentially on to an insolvency event, unless a club drastically cuts is expenses, thereby seriously restricting its ability to get back up...
all if we are working to the proposed rules I was replying to originally
:agree: All of this, and something that is tangible to the average hun has to happen to reinforce that they are indeed a new club permanently whatever workarounds have been created to assuage them.Quote:
Originally Posted by brog
I also think that if we are serious about the sporting integrity statements we should be seeing steps taken to take away that which has been gained by cheating, its happening elsewhere in sport, so why not here?
Entering void against the record of teams who cheated, gained an illegal advantage, whatever you want to call it, is what I'd like to see.
Accept what you are saying but I am wanting to force clubs going forward to live within their means. That for me is more important than raking over the now stone cold coals of Rangers meltdown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kavinho
Running at a loss is one thing but Hibs are paying down their debt therefore we wouldn't be affected by new possible rules on scrutiny. Our finances are solid.
What I'm proposing is a validation check on the financial affairs of member clubs so that we do not revisit the last 10 years where we have had arguably the biggest club in the land go bust, and two larger clubs go bust in Hearts and Dundee along with clubs such as Livingston and Gretna buying their way to cup finals and promotions before going bust.
I really don't think it's unfair that a member club which runs up year on year losses and debt increases and then fails to submit audited accounts should be viewed as unfit to play in the top flight and summarily relegated. Whether that is to the league below or to the 4th tier should be a matter for the League but surely if we are to learn one thing from the catastrophes at Tynecastle and Ibrox it is this.
This would be great but if you follow the SFA/hibs0666 model, you could only take action against clubs that you weren't desperate to keep around for short term commercial reasons. So you could punish Gretna but not the new Rangers.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyM_1875
There's no point overhauling the rules until we have football authorities that recognise the value of applying them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyM_1875
Completely agree on the principal, just remember all clubs have to agree to adopt it. I think it a little impractical on the first draft! The scenario above re us is just one example. We are choosing to spend more than we possibly should just now.
Any club relegated from any league would have a similar dilemma. If you penalise for over spending compared to income, you would be effectively saying cut your cloth as soon as you get relegated, and that would have the potential to segregate the leagues further..
potential mind..! In principal I agree on tighter more stringent financial oversight, with sanctions for breaches.
Without fear or favour. Reputations aren't worth spit. That's one thing we need to have learned from Rangers debacle.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens
Hypothetically if Celtc failed to produce annual audited accounts to the League body then they should be relegated as far as I'm concerned. But they won't because they will always produce accounts (plc) and Peter Lawell runs that club well.
Same with the Brown family at St Johnstone and the people running Inverness. These two are model clubs.
For me Scottish Football will move on once the SFA charge the Hun with CHEATING, find them guilty of CHEATING and punish them for CHEATING. No mealy-mouth, half-way statments like they maybe 'attempted to secure advantages that other teams couldn't get' or that they 'arranged the circumstances that were beneficial to them only' etc, etc. CHEATING is what they have done and CHEATING should be quite clearly stated in the paper-work !.
Finally, once the pertinent titles/trophies are voided, the Hun MUST apologise to the millions of Scottish Football Fans who spent their hard-earned money for a period of just over 10 years, going along to what they thought were COMPETITIVE football-matches when they were anything but !!
The tax case blog made a good point that everyone of the rangers players on the pitch at easter road when they won the league (by a point) was paid through an EBT which they had the opportunity to disclose to HRMC 2 years earlier, but choose not to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deansy
Very implausible to think they would have had that same team had they put their hands up earlier (if they ever have)
I don't really understand the argument that fans went to the football thinking it was competitive, and now we realise it wasn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deansy
The fans went to games, and saw competitive matches. By the time rangers had signed these players the cheating was done. We couldn't care less how they were getting paid after that. The actual matches were still competitive, and we took points off rangers in the EBT era. It's not like match fixing was taking place.
I do understand though that they were more likely to win as they bought better players and paid them illegally.
:agree: Wasn't match-fixing. More like tournament-fixing.Quote:
Originally Posted by bernz
Hibs, Celtic et al entered games thinking that all clubs were sticking to the rules and regulations of the game as laid down by the SFA. Subsequently it turned out rules were being broken.Quote:
Originally Posted by bernz
Yes but the consequence of that rule break (the good players) was there for Hibs, Celtic et al to see before a ball was kicked. The fans still saw a competitive game of football.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kato
...but clubs might have won more games against Rangers if the rule break didn't give them an edge. They competitive games of football but Rangers gave themselves more chance of winning by giving players dodgy payments i.e. cheating.Quote:
Originally Posted by bernz
Maybe if Rangers had spelled Lorenzo Amoruso's name wrong on his forms they would have been chucked out of competitions/cups but slipping him an extra £5M tax free is cool.
I suppose the point is that supporters have been frustrated all these years suspecting that cheating was going on but knowing it went too deep to challenge. The Internet and social media changed all that to some extent. Then along comes the open goal we have been presented with by the house of cards wobbling through collapse of one part of the duopoly and exposure of their crutch that is the combined football authorities.Quote:
Originally Posted by bernz
In the past the SFA might have garnered support from UEFA but they have their own room of skeletons to deal with. So let's see what the various court cases reveal and let's hope we end up with a sport that's free from corrupt practices.
In a perfect world I would like to have seen the Rangers situation reach its inevitable conclusion with everyone acknowledging that their kind of cheating led to their extinction. Then a new club be formed and permitted to enter the league, within the rules, so that they could work their way back up through the leagues and inevitably fill a slot formally occupied by rangers. The same people would have followed them and had a great adventure getting their new team to the top end of the Scottish game. But in the background Rangers FC would be there for all time alongside clubs like Third Lanark, Airdrionians and Gretna as a warning in history of the folly that can befall clubs who overextend.
IMHO that scenario would have worked just fine for all concerned up to and including the Rangers supporters. And I believe Scottish football would have gone from strength to strength as a result. Sadly it seems that the people who govern our game nor did it work for the self interested few who had ambitions to run the new Rangers. That was when we dug a huge hole and it is a mess that may never be resolved without the painful process we are now going through.
Celtc ran up a bank debt that went north of £30m, bear in mind they also had annual Champions League humiliation cash thrown at them in this era. They also experimented with EBTs and high earners of the club such as Sutton, Lawell, Riley, Lennon, Thomson admittedly on an individual basis, sought to minimize their own tax bills through investments in various tax avoidance schemes now being chased with the same vigour as EBTs are by HMRC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kato
Would not say they are a great example.
The problem the authorities have is that many of the core issues that they would rather kept swept under the carpet are being forensically analysed in the courts, so they are unable (probably for the first time in my lifetime) to simply ignore it. The triumvirate of (The) Rangers, Celtic and SFA are under pressure like never before, despite their media buddies defending the barricades as they have always done. IMO there's a genuine chance of change for the greater good coming out of this Sevco mess. Maybe this is what Reagan meant when he talked about Armageddon :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by CentreLine
I can see your point. We did see competitive games as in 11 against 11.Quote:
Originally Posted by bernz
If we put in the heavyweight champ of the world in a ring with the light featherweight champ there in my eyes would only be one outcome.
If you stick the heavyweight champ in over a year with another so many lightweight fighters then over the year there may be 1 or 2 upsets but the outcome is a certainty.
Each fight would be a contest but not a fair contest that's why boxing has a governing body to regulate the contests.
The Rangers were flexing bigger muscles( players) due to steriods(EBT's) and have been caught.
What we need is a governing body who will treat every club in the land with the same rules and regulations and implement them irrespective of who why where when they were. Broken and take action against ALL clubs breaking them.
GGTTH
👍 Agreed. And it is a significant point that Celtic are no angels in this. The duopoly of Rangers and Celtic was propped up by our football association for far too many years. If they are squeezed hard enough the pips will pop out and the game has a fighting chance of being played on a level playing field for the first time probably since the second war and certainly since the largest percentage of tv revenues and SPL/SPFL money was diverted towards only two clubs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Onion
I think the caveat to this is that it does not seem unreasonable of course, for there to be two or three clubs in a country who tend to dominate proceedings. That could be due to population, the historical growth of the clubs or success that translates to power. If you look at most leagues in Europe, most countries have a couple of top teams. I'm perfectly prepared to accept that two teams with stadiums that can accommodate 50k people week in week out are likely to have more reach than those who have 20, 15, 10 or 5k fanbases.Quote:
Originally Posted by CentreLine
Where this is a bang-on point is how the duopoly has then been advantaged by the SFA feathering their nests even further, through distribution of media rights, enhanced voting rights and so on.
The level playing field I want to see isn't so much ensuring that clubs that are big are reined back, but I certainly don't expect to see them treated as protected species and have the rule books and balance sheets altered to enhance their status even more at the expense of everyone else.
Simplistic tosh.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyM_1875
I would bet that points 1 and 2 could not be enforced as they would be in restraint of trade and any club so penalised could get it set aside.
UEFAs Financial Fair Play rules have been quietly watered down because of the threat of legal action. No team would be able to rebuild a stadium.
Apart from all else it would probably have put pretty well every major club in Scotland out of business by now. Hibs would have fell foul in the early 1990s and again around 2000. Celtic would have gone circa 1992, so would Kilmarnock, Motherwell, Aberdeen, Dundee (two or three times), Partick Thistle, Livingston, aside from the real offenders (Rangers and Hearts).
How many people would pay to see a League consisting of St Johnstone, Inverness and, possibly Dundee United?
If St Johnstone, Inverness and Dundee United are the only clubs not breaking the Financial rules then so be it.Quote:
Originally Posted by jgl07
If my team is falling foul of the financial rules then they take their medicine and suck it up.
Lower league clubs like East Stirling, East Fife and Cowdenbeath work to break even. They have no big bank debts. If they are relegated then they budget at a lower level and play kids.
Why should bigger clubs be any different? The one thing on this thread is that fans have complained about teams living way beyond their means.
My suggestion isn't about the past, that's done but lessons need to be learned.
Still... if you have a better suggestion that offers a bit more sophistication than some zoomer in a Celtc shirt shouting 'Strip the Titles' then I'm all ears.
I agree that on the face of it it seems a bit idealistic and not entirely realistic but I think it is a start in the right direction.Quote:
Originally Posted by jgl07
There is debt and then there is debt (it is unusual having this conversation with people who aren't jambos or huns). The finances of the world would collapse if everyone had to pay off their mortgages tomorrow. Clubs should be allowed to borrow as long as they are able to pay back and they should be heavily sanctioned if they can not/ will not.
We do need to get firm rules and sanctions in place to act as a deterrent for financial jiggery-pokery. 15 point penalties don't even scratch the surface for clubs that can cheat for a generation before being caught up with - clubs who cheat themselves, their own fans, other clubs and their fans, Scottish football in general, sponsors, European opposition etc etc.
I think the bare minimum is that any team who has to enter administration/ faces liquidation has to start at the bottom and tough 5hit if they never recover. That will focus clubs minds on living within their means. And if we were to fall foul of it then so be it.
One of the most shameful facts is that so many clubs have failed to learn from their experience and ended up in trouble shortly afterwards.
Fulham have made a move for warburton.
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According to BBC, RFC have promised MW more cash for himself, and more cash for players, to try and ward off Fulham.
Clearly rattled.
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His agent has played a blinder here.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Despite Warburton's distancing himself from the Fulham job, he remains strong favourite at 10/11. Advocaat is second fav. at 5/2 and the biggest mover is Seedorf drifting in from 14/1 to 8/1 today.
Can't help thinking that, if Fulham are serious, the compensation that they can pay will be very tempting to Rangers.
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If Fulham are pursuing this then I'm sure they will have received some encouragement.Quote:
Originally Posted by SunshineOnLeith
Rangers offering salary increase and increased transfer kitty to keep him!
The interesting price in the market is Betfair who have him at 8/11. If that shortens with them over the next few hours, then he could well be offski.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim44
Did he bring any back room or coaching staff with him to SEVCO?
be interesting to see where the money comes from, more loans? fulham are a much bigger attraction than the huns but i think warburton will stay... for nowQuote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
david weir, not sure who elseQuote:
Originally Posted by Sergey
Frank McParland?Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigHibee
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigHibee
Interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens
Normally when a manager leaves (or is appointed) they come/leave with their lackeys en masse. Seemingly Martin O'Neil had them by the coach load. We remember the numpties that TB brought to the Hibs.
If SEVCO do indeed lose their complete (or core) back room staff - that's really going to swing the pendulum in our favour.
If it ain't Fulham this week - it could well be any number of clubs next week*
*Disclaimer: Stubbs could also be tempted away to greater things, so the coin does have two sides.
Conflicting news on FF. One post saying Daily Record reporting that a Fulham spokesman says they have no interest in Warburton whatsoever. Another (in last hour or so) BBC saying that Fulham have made an approach to Sevco and that Sevco have made an increased salary and transfer pot offer to Warburton to keep him. Probably all nonsense but it'll keep the natives restless and give them a taste of their own medicine. :faf:
I actually think if he did go, so would Tavernier and ****horn, although I'm not sure who's a loan deal and who's no, I think Ball might be one. Rangers are really ****ing it, their whole season could go right down the tubes if he jumps ship. I'm not convinced he will, but it would be extremely funny if he did.
Apparently he's just tweeted that he is going nowhere and is angry at incorrect stories from media outlets. Party pooper. :greengrin
That Twitter account doesn't have the wee tick that verifies it's warburtonQuote:
Originally Posted by Jim44
There was also a tweet the other day from him saying he wants to win Rangers first trophy, I'd be surprised if that was really him.
Just as long as he did it respectfully! :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim44
I agree. I think Warburton is itching for a move.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibs0666
He's just trying to find a face-saving way out of Rangers... and Rangers could do with a bit of cash in compensation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim44
Does Warburton have previous at tweeting :confused:
Maybe not him.