The Trans Rights Debate

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Originally Posted by He's here!

https://thecritic.co.uk/a-very-seditious-scarf/

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That's been discussed pages ago.

I think it was wrong, and don't know who made the decision, but, as I understand it, the colours have been misappropriated by the TERF movement


https://xtramagazine.com/power/terf-canada-election-explainer-206866


So when you see purple, green and white together, you might immediately associate it with some sort of queer or gender terminology. (In fact, the colours made up the genderqueer flag long before they were consistently used by transphobic women’s groups.) But just as they ruined any positive associations we have with a certain bespectacled wizard, anti-trans activists ruined these colours, too.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

That's been discussed pages ago.

I think it was wrong, and don't know who made the decision, but, as I understand it, the colours have been misappropriated by the TERF movement


https://xtramagazine.com/power/terf-canada-election-explainer-206866


So when you see purple, green and white together, you might immediately associate it with some sort of queer or gender terminology. (In fact, the colours made up the genderqueer flag long before they were consistently used by transphobic women’s groups.) But just as they ruined any positive associations we have with a certain bespectacled wizard, anti-trans activists ruined these colours, too.

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Once again with the "transphobic" " anti trans". Somehow now if you have a different opinion on the issue your transphobic, nonsense. You might agree or disagree but it's a valid non bigoted opinion to think women should have female only spaces or teans women are not women

https://www.facebook.com/10006471297...GHH3DgjXa5SEl/

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

That's been discussed pages ago.

I think it was wrong, and don't know who made the decision, but, as I understand it, the colours have been misappropriated by the TERF movement


https://xtramagazine.com/power/terf-...plainer-206866


So when you see purple, green and white together, you might immediately associate it with some sort of queer or gender terminology. (In fact, the colours made up the genderqueer flag long before they were consistently used by transphobic women’s groups.) But just as they ruined any positive associations we have with a certain bespectacled wizard, anti-trans activists ruined these colours, too.

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You seem to be sailing close to the wind when using the language of hate quite a bit yourself, all too readily dismissing opposing views as anti-trans and transphobic when in reality pretty much everyone responding on here knows they are nothing of the kind.

Personally, I find the term and labelling of women's rights groups as "TERF" to be discriminatory and unacceptable. I suppose it would be a bit like me referring to trans rights activists as misogynistic trans advocates or trans right supporting woman haters.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

https://www.facebook.com/10006471297...GHH3DgjXa5SEl/

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I see you are very commited to this. Just out of interest, can you tell me how many lives were lost to transgender hatred in the last year?

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Originally Posted by archie

I see you are very commited to this. Just out of interest, can you tell me how many lives were lost to transgender hatred in the last year?

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Lower rate of murder than the general population, but figures are too low to be significant. That's not to say they don't face discrimination, as I'm sure they do

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

That's been discussed pages ago.

I think it was wrong, and don't know who made the decision, but, as I understand it, the colours have been misappropriated by the TERF movement


https://xtramagazine.com/power/terf-canada-election-explainer-206866


So when you see purple, green and white together, you might immediately associate it with some sort of queer or gender terminology. (In fact, the colours made up the genderqueer flag long before they were consistently used by transphobic women’s groups.) But just as they ruined any positive associations we have with a certain bespectacled wizard, anti-trans activists ruined these colours, too.

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I'm not posting it as news. It's a comment piece which IMHO gets to the heart of why Sturgeon has lost her way on this issue.

Re Harry Potter, the principled stance taken by J K Rowling (who is not, incidentally, an 'anti-trans activist') has actually enhanced my respect for her work.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Lower rate of murder than the general population, but figures are too low to be significant. That's not to say they don't face discrimination, as I'm sure they do

https://www.channel4.com/news/factch...le-murdered-uk

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Firstly, it's awful to weaponise deaths and assaults of anyone. But to have a solemn day of commemoration when no one actully knows if anyone has actually died as a result of being trans strikes me as a bit of creating a narrative to support wider calls for change, rather than a genuine commemoration.

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Originally Posted by archie

Firstly, it's awful to weaponise deaths and assaults of anyone. But to have a solemn day of commemoration when no one actully knows if anyone has actually died as a result of being trans strikes me as a bit of creating a narrative to support wider calls for change, rather than a genuine commemoration.

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This might help.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamiewa...records-began/

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

This might help.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamiewa...records-began/

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It is (of course) contested https://www.queermajority.com/curren...and-trans-life I have no idea of what is true here, but I suspect it's difficult to pin down data, causality etc. I saw a set of figures that suggested the figure for the UK was 1 in the last four years. A tragedy for sure, but worthy of a day of rememberence?

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

This might help.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamiewa...records-began/

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Its impossible to put up a list and make a reading from it unfortunately. If the majority of the deaths are in South America, what is the rate of deaths of sex workers there. Probably a good example of needing legalised safe sex work. I read the first 20 or so on the list and many are deaths from domestic abuse, should that be on the list. I think adding any trans person that has been murdered in the list diminishes the vile stoning of a person further down the list

Certainly thankfully the murder of trans people for being trans is almost non existent in Europe. I'm sure discrimination is huge though.

There's also this, for England & Wales.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b2196759.html

In terms of transphobia, it might be a better guide of its insidious nature.

Again, there are disturbing echoes of the queer-bashing of the 70s and 80s.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

There's also this, for England & Wales.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b2196759.html

In terms of transphobia, it might be a better guide of its insidious nature.

Again, there are disturbing echoes of the queer-bashing of the 70s and 80s.

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The rise appears to be largely driven by social media commentary. Not that it's irrelevant, but there is an extraordinarily wide definition of what 'hate' is in this context. Some argue that legitimate questions are being characterised unfairly as hate.

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Originally Posted by archie

The rise appears to be largely driven by social media commentary. Not that it's irrelevant, but there is an extraordinarily wide definition of what 'hate' is in this context. Some argue that legitimate questions are being characterised unfairly as hate.

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On the flip-side, those numbers reflect reported incidents. With any marginalised group (eg sex workers, LGB in past times)..... and, of course, with sexual assault.... there's often a reluctance to engage with what's seen as the establishment. There will be a lot that is unreported.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

On the flip-side, those numbers reflect reported incidents. With any marginalised group (eg sex workers, LGB in past times)..... and, of course, with sexual assault.... there's often a reluctance to engage with what's seen as the establishment. There will be a lot that is unreported.

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I don't disagree with you on this. I'm not convinced, however, that a day of remembrance is entirely sincere.

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Originally Posted by archie

I don't disagree with you on this. I'm not convinced, however, that a day of remembrance is entirely sincere.

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You are aware this is a global day of remembrance, not just for the UK.?

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

You are aware this is a global day of remembrance, not just for the UK.?

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Yes.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

https://www.facebook.com/10006471297...GHH3DgjXa5SEl/

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The full text. Note the second part!



Tonight, Perth's Smeaton Bridge will be lit blue, pink and white to mark Transgender Day of Remembrance.

This annual Remembrance Day is to remember lives who have been sadly lost due to anti-transgender hatred and violence and to help raise visibility for transgender people and address issues the community faces.

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Commenting on this post has been turned off. Sadly comments made by a minority of people show why awareness days like this continue to be necessary.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

That's been discussed pages ago.

I think it was wrong, and don't know who made the decision, but, as I understand it, the colours have been misappropriated by the TERF movement


https://xtramagazine.com/power/terf-...plainer-206866


So when you see purple, green and white together, you might immediately associate it with some sort of queer or gender terminology. (In fact, the colours made up the genderqueer flag long before they were consistently used by transphobic women’s groups.) But just as they ruined any positive associations we have with a certain bespectacled wizard, anti-trans activists ruined these colours, too.

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However, JK Rowling has never said anything transphobic, it's not trans people that deny the reality of biological sex and send hate mail and death threats to her, it's trans activist that claim to speak on their behalf that do this. For most trans people if there is no such thing as biological sex there is no such thing as trans, this is why the trans allies, who are themselves not trans are making things worse for actual trans people, who just want to get on with their life's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyzZ3J6IG6s

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

The full text. Note the second part!



Tonight, Perth's Smeaton Bridge will be lit blue, pink and white to mark Transgender Day of Remembrance.

This annual Remembrance Day is to remember lives who have been sadly lost due to anti-transgender hatred and violence and to help raise visibility for transgender people and address issues the community faces.

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Commenting on this post has been turned off. Sadly comments made by a minority of people show why awareness days like this continue to be necessary.

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So it's actually about the agenda rather than rememberance.

Irvine Welsh's take: https://twitter.com/IrvineWelsh/stat...03048877391872

https://twitter.com/LucyHunterB/stat...0UBsHGx7w&s=19

The legislation does sound like a mess, apparently it will be a crime to lie about living in your acquired gender, yet no definition of what living in your acquired gender is. So how does that work?

You will be punished if you drive over the speed limit, but we can't tell you what the speed limit is.

This is what happens when legislation is rushed and the desire to push a policy over everything else, you end up with rubbish legislation. (See Named Person legislation which was deemed illegal and dropped at a cost of millions)

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Originally Posted by James310

https://twitter.com/LucyHunterB/stat...0UBsHGx7w&s=19

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Thanks for posting this, it is a very interesting read that exposes the level of unthinking of Nicola Sturgeon's GRA, it seems like the question of what happens if a sex offender registers or the implications for woman in prisons or domestic violence refuges has not been thought about or debated in the rush to push through Gender Self ID in what can only be described as a giant virtue signal by Nicola Sturgeon to look good rather than do good.

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Originally Posted by archie

So it's actually about the agenda rather than rememberance.

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This is from the European Sex Workers Alliance, with whom I occasionally work. They don't mention deaths,but the remembrance of those who have suffered harm.

November 20 is the Transgender Day of Remembrance (TDoR), a day to memorialise those who have been victims of transphobia and homophobia. On this day, we, the activists fighting for the trans people’ rights, are trying to draw the public attention to discrimination, violence, hate speech, and injustice towards the community members.

From January to November 2022, we collected 94 cases of hate crimes against transgender people, including physical and psychological violence, destruction of property, rape, extortion, robbery, disclosure of personal information and kidnapping; the cases were committed both by family members, colleagues, friends of transgender people, and public officials.

It should be noted that during the recent months, the “Right Side” Human Rights Defender NGO has been working in an emergency situation, trying to respond to the increased cases of violence, discrimination, hate speech and hate crimes against transgender people, doing everything possible to ensure the safety and well-being of the trans community.
#TDOR2022

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Originally Posted by James310

https://twitter.com/LucyHunterB/stat...0UBsHGx7w&s=19

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There's a lot been added to that since you first posted the link. It's strong stuff and bang on the money when it comes to outlining how Sturgeon has lost the plot on this.

UN intervenes https://twitter.com/UNSRVAW/status/1595336668499902464

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Originally Posted by archie

UN intervenes https://twitter.com/UNSRVAW/status/1595336668499902464

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That's a hefty letter to put it mildly. I'll attempt to wade through it later.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63730621

BBC have the UN intervention story. Easier to read than the full letter!

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Originally Posted by archie

UN intervenes https://twitter.com/UNSRVAW/status/1595336668499902464

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Given that the report is made to HMG, it will be interesting to see what they do with it. After all, it is a devolved matter.

I skim read the report and I see that there is very little (no?) reference to international evidence from the 30 odd countries that have GRC. I've asked before on this thread, with no success.... does either side have any?