Thanks, that is interesting. Shows that my perceived wisdom is not necessarily so wise. However, I'm not sure I agree with the article's conclusion. I just can't see Labour winning anything just now.Quote:
Originally Posted by RyeSloan
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Thanks, that is interesting. Shows that my perceived wisdom is not necessarily so wise. However, I'm not sure I agree with the article's conclusion. I just can't see Labour winning anything just now.Quote:
Originally Posted by RyeSloan
Are you really saying that comparisons, like those I have posted in graph form above about holiday entitlement, paternal leave and minimum pay in other countries shouldn't be used because these countries have different political and fiscal structures.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye
How else can we look afar and say that works, we should aim to emulate what is good and works elsewhere.
No, he's on about the comparison between Scotland's NHS and England's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
I know that's what MA was responding to, but I would imagine it applies across the board, how else are comparisons made.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens
No I wasn’t.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
This was in relation to an earlier discussion about performance targets in the health system. And I had already acknowledged it should be on a different thread. And I was merely replying to someone else.
To be honest I haven’t had the time yet to read the posts you are referring to, but I will.
But I know that you said you used to work for a local authority - P&K I am guessing - so you will know fine well the dangers of comparisons. Being fifth out of 32 or being 29th out of 32 sounds very different but if everyone is pretty much much of a muchness then 29th isn’t particularly alarming. And if the ‘top’ four are miles ahead and the remaining 28 are tanking, then 5th is no great shakes.
Now you're talking about the SPFL 😉Quote:
Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye
:greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
Genuine question, do you use the winking smiley so often because you are cracking ironic jokes, or do you have a dodgy eye?Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
There's a pint resting on your answer. :wink:
That was definitely irony 🤔Quote:
Originally Posted by Cataplana
Enjoy the pint. 🍻
It is regulated in Germany so I'm surprised it's not on that graph. Here both parents can take up to 14 months divided between them but with a maximum of 12 months for any one parent. I took 2 months back in 2011 and it's not changed since then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
I also work for an airline that has bases in the UK, France, Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Spain and Portugal and can confirm that the T&Cs including pay are the worst in the UK.
😁Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
Yep, Thatch loved certain aspects of the EU.Quote:
Originally Posted by RyeSloan
Agree whitabootery is tiresome in all its forms.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye
Just been reading the matchday thread so I've come back here to cheer myself up.
https://www.itv.com/news/2019-10-26/...robert-peston/
Looks like the Lib Dems and SNP are going to try to force an election early December and Boris may back the vote...
Don't get why they would do this. I understand the SNP will probably clean up in Scotland but why are the libs wanting an election?Quote:
Originally Posted by CloudSquall
Do they believe the can turn around the polls?
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Angus MacNeil (SNP MP Western Isles) said he "won't be bounced into this" , will be interesting to see how this all plays out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Callum_62
Like you say I'd expect the SNP to near enough clean up shop in Scotland, Lib Dems would need to be confident of picking up enough seats down south amongst remainers especially in Tory seats, for now I can't really see it especially with them and Labour splitting the remain vote.
:top marksQuote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
You're on a roll today bud :aok:
Lib Dem’s due to pick up seats no matter what. Somebody has to make a move at some point, can’t keep going like this forever just because Labour insist on sticking with the unelectable Corbyn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Callum_62
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Thanks JH, don't know what's come over me. :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by Jack Hackett
Got to love a bit of nationalism
https://news.sky.com/story/sky-views...ently-11846370
And where do these polls actually happen?? The most Tory of tory counties?
https://news.sky.com/story/tories-su...-poll-11846200
The SNP have been signalling they would do this for the past week. Their commitment to a second Brexit referendum has been quietly dropped in favour of gaining seats in Scotland. It’s risky but we could see a LibDem/SNP/Labour coalition in power but only if they can ensure Brexit has not been passed before we go to the Polls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Callum_62
Get that right to ****.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzzywuzzy
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I would not say it has been dropped, just a case of it not being deliverable. The numbers just aren’t there.Quote:
Originally Posted by marinello59
Something needs to change and if we have an election and the Tories (most likely) win then it won’t be the fault of the SNP or the Lib Dem’s.
The Labour Party are the problem here.
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I agree about the Labour Party. I also think the SNP are doing the right thing in teaming up with the LibDems to force the issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/s...92480707956736
Some explanation from Sturgeon on the SNP's standpoint, personally I can see both sides of the argument but I'm leaning towards wanting an election soon, nothing is possible at this point with the way parliament is numbered.
If Labour were in any way decent opposition they would be chomping at the bit for an election and sweeping the board down south given how much of a **** show Brexit has been so far.
In reality though..
According to the latest IPSOS Mori poll: "Corbyn is less popular than Boris Johnson among both men and women, in every socioeconomic category, whether richer or poorer, in London and Scotland as well as the Midlands and Wales and, remarkably, in every age group. Perhaps it’s no surprise that the over-65s prefer Johnson to Corbyn by 62% to 8%, but it’s arresting that even among the youngest voters, aged 18 to 24, those once seen as the Labour leader’s base, Corbyn is less popular than the prime minister. The Labour leader has a net satisfaction rating of -60, with just 16% of voters pleased with him and 76% unhappy. That means Mr Corbyn is even more unpopular than former Labour boss Michael Foot, who had an approval score of -56 in 1982, the year before he was routed by Margaret Thatcher in a general election. When Tony Blair and David Cameron assumed office from opposition both had positive net satisfaction scores. It is truly extraordinary that the party of opposition is not 20 points ahead of a government in office for nine years."Quote:
Originally Posted by CloudSquall
It's interesting but he came pretty close to an upset in 2017, surely he couldn't have dropped that much in popularity. I personally wish Labour would change leader, they have a few people on there books that would be much more popular to the whole of the UK than Corbyn isQuote:
Originally Posted by G B Young
It looks like SNP might take 10 or so seats from the tories, surley the libs will take some in England too. I'd hope it would be closer come the end of the campaign than being forcasted
One thing Johnson really struggles with is scrutiny - 6 weeks of an election campaign could really put the squeeze on
Labour will need an excellent campaign though, which they had last time
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Now who's running scared?
https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/st...022233088?s=19
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I just can't see Boris keeping it together in an election campaign.Quote:
Originally Posted by Callum_62
They're not as gung ho about an election now as they have failed fo deliver Brexit by 31/10 despite all Boris' bluster. Farage will rip the **** out of the Tories in an election campaign for failing and will split the Tory vote big time. The LibDems would be the main beneficiaries in the big English cities particularly. The LibDems and the SNP could have a very strong hand in the next parliament.Quote:
Originally Posted by Callum_62
He came nowhere near close to an upset.Quote:
Originally Posted by Callum_62
He had the biggest shift in the popular vote and the biggest absolute vote share for Labour in a long, long time. The only thing that came close was Blair in 1997 and 2001.
Blair turned that into majorities of over 150. Corbyn ended up fifty seats behind the Tories.
It is all very well getting every twenty year old in Islington to vote for you but it doesn’t translate into power.
They gained 30 seats with a 9.6% swingQuote:
Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye
They came far far closer than anyone predicted
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And abjectly failed., as per the comparison with Tony Blair. Seven years into an austerity government and the best they could do was finish fifty-odd seats behind the Tories?Quote:
Originally Posted by Callum_62
Swing voters and natural Labour voters who had been turned off by Militant etc, came flooding back under Smith and then Blair.
They are going to the Lib Dems because of Corbyn.
Which I think was the latter point you made - Labour need a leader who doesn’t alienate people (and who doesn't have swivel head loons in the background, manipulating him and the party machinery).
Lib Dem’s weren’t a force in 2017 but have rehabilitated themselves now. People in England appalled at the thought of Corbyn now have somewhere to go. Labour will suffer.
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Rehabilitated :greengrin They do that before every election.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Exclusive: Brexit: EU prepares to grant UK three-month extension
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...y_to_clipboard
https://amp.theguardian.com/politics...mpression=true
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Blair, Campbell and Mandelson are to blame for the behind the scenes politicking. They've been attempting to underhandly oust Roland Rudd for some time now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Callum_62
With Sturgeon now standing shoulder to shoulder with Swinson to get an election and dismiss the threat of No Deal are you now accusing her of just playing politics as well?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee
EU agree extension to 31 January.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-50205603
Needs to be action now. Every major party has to move towards something. There needs to be either a GE or second vote agreed before the end of the week. This needs to be finished soon whatever way it goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peevemor
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Hopefully Johnson picking out a suitable ditch as we speak.
Or new hung parliament and off we go again ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
That probably results in a 2nd ref.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens
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Why, on the face of it, are the non Tory parties not just going for a second referendum?
Everyone is already saying it's going to be the most single issue GE there's ever been.
The likelihood is Brexit would be dead in the water. No more hung stuff with the intransigence lying Torys failing miserably to force worse and worse deals though a sceptical parliament.
As a result the Torys would implode, other parties pick up the pieces.
Labour are split.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
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https://twitter.com/brexit_sham/stat...966423552?s=21
They should put Blair in charge of Remain campaign if there is a second ref.
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But Iraq ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Not in the EU although I’m sure the leave campaign will try convince us it’s just about to join.[emoji6]Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibbyradge
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Beat me to it. An election will sort **** all. Unless the Tories romp home. Then it’s Johnston’s deal at best, pending crashing out at a the end of the years grace period.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens
J
Because there are about 30-40 Labour MPs who are either Brexiters or prioritise hanging on to their own seats over a ref#2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
Yep. Plus the likes of Milne, a castback to the Bennite days , pulling Corbyn’s strings.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens
Is this the same as representing their constituency, or would you rather they ignored the majority of voters in their constituency and pushed for a ref2?Quote:
Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens
I understand your point but it is an established principle in British parliamentary democracy that MPs are not there to slavishly follow the majority view of their constituents - if that was the case then they would have to conduct mini-referenda before every vote.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slavers
Yes. An MP's job is to do what they believe is best for their constituents which is not necessarily the same thing as what the majority of their constituents want. Labour's manifesto in 2017 said they would respect ref#1 but negotiate a soft Brexit and explicitly ruled out no deal. They are perfectly within their rights to reject the Tories' hard Brexit which still carries a hidden no-deal threat. And if a ref#2 is the best way to achieve that then so be it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slavers
The SNP want a tory brexit just as much as Jo Swinson. Just for different reasons. A general election will hand it to them. Both Swinson and our First Minister know this.Quote:
Originally Posted by marinello59
That's what Labour are advocating and it makes the most sense for those who are serious about keeping the UK in the EU. A general election = tory brexit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
If a 2nd ref was put to a vote in parliament tomorrow then the SNP and Lib Dem’s would all vote for it. Could Labour say the same?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee
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Of course they would vote for it. They have to be seen as opposing Brexit and even although they'd be slating those Labour MPs who vote it down. They'd secretly be very relieved that they did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Politics isn't always what it seems on the surface. But so few people read between the lines.
There are more than a few Labour MPs who would vote against a second referendum. They don’t have to be seen as opposing it, they are either against it like Hoey and Stringer, or fear deselection or being voted out like Flint.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee
I'm not talking about Labour. I'm talking about SNP and Lib Dem MPs voting in favour of it, safe in the knowledge that it would never pass thanks to Labour MPs who would vote it down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye
MPs can give the impression that they support something by voting in favour of it, while knowing at the same time that there is no risk of the vote ever actually passing.
So that's a Yes then, both women are liars in your opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee
Like Jeremy Corbyn saying he’s a remainer?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee
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No. That's why the Lib Dems and the SNP have had to go down a different path, the numbers simply aren't there to get one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Politicians are liars. It isn't gender specific. Only a sexist would think that gender makes a difference when it comes to honesty. Right?Quote:
Originally Posted by marinello59
I don't think Jeremy Corbyn has ever said he's a remainer. But what a politician says or doesn't say isn't important. It's what they commit to on paper and Labour are commited to giving the electorate a choice between a tory deal and remain. Which is surely a better option for remainers than the Lib Dem proposal of handing the tories a massive majority in a general election?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Iib dem and now SNP no?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee
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Lib Dem’s and SNP likely to increase their vote and number of MP’s in GE. Not sure they can be blamed if the Tories win. I would think that would be down to the parties who lose seats.[emoji23]Quote:
Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee
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Did you read any of my previous posts? The SNP want a tory majority and hard brexit "forced upon Scotland". It's the best possible outcome for the parties main agenda.Quote:
Originally Posted by Callum_62
So you admit that they're putting their party before the UK?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
I'm perfectly fine with it. There will however be a lot of disappointed people who genuinely believed the Lib Dems were anti-brexit.
Eh? Another confusing comment from you. Would you care to expand on that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee
What else can they do? There needs to be movement now. We can’t stay like this forever. Labour won’t back a 2nd referendum so it has to be a GE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee
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Why did you feel the need to point out that both politicians are women. As if their gender had any bearing on what i'm saying?Quote:
Originally Posted by marinello59
If people elect MP's to represent their views, then why bother if they will be ignored because the MP's serve their own interests before their constituents.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens
If this is the kind of politics that remoaners want then surely they'd be better proposing a dictatorship, then the people can just be ignored on every decision because the political elites know best.
Labour have already commited themselves to a peoples vote between a tory deal and remain. That can't however happen with constant delays over parliaments approval of the deal itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Labour obviously won't back a 2nd referendum. It will end badly for them. The lib dems will gain seats. But where brexit is concerned, It is handing it on a plate to the tories with no option of a peoples vote.
A general election is completely illogical if you're serious about keeping the UK in the EU. The FPTP system will ensure it ends badly for remain supporters, even if they're in a majority now.
Wow. It doesn't and if you've ever read my posts on the subject or knew me you will know that I feel very strongly about equality and the way that women politicians are judged differently. So you can withdraw the insinuation that I was being sexist there. Cheers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee
Labour has no plan for how we get to a 2nd ref, it’s pie in the sky wishful thinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee
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No. I think you know full well what you were doing and it's not for the first time either. You've already accused me of having "problems" with female politicians. When I simply point out that they're no more honest than male politicians.Quote:
Originally Posted by marinello59
You seem to be under the impression that because these politicians are women, we should hang on their every word. Well I humbly disagree.
They elect MPs to represent their interests, not represent their views. An MP can't (and shouldn't try to) second guess their constituents views on everything. They should do what they genuinely think is best and if their constituents don't like it, then they have the chance to vote them out at the next election.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slavers
Anyway, even on Brexit, many Leave constituencies from 2016 will be Remain now. In your model, how does an MP decide when to change their vote?
Time for you to check your facts. Again. . It wasn't me that accused you of having a problem with women politicians. Feel free to apologise for that as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee
You're an admin are you not? You've never pulled anybody else up for those unfounded accusations. Where's my apology?Quote:
Originally Posted by marinello59
Labours plan was a choice between a tory deal and remain. But that option is off the table, because parliament won't give approval to the tory deal. So that leaves a general election the only option available. Which is bad news for remainers. Because once that is out of the way, the tories will have more than enough to push their own version of brexit through without the need to include a peoples vote option.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
If you can't defend yourself on a political discussion forum maybe you shouldn't be on it. I assume you did respond to whoever it was that made that remark? Did you report it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee
Remember this is primarily a football forum but if you have genuine concerns about any post directed towards you then please report it and as always we would take appropriate action.
Your tying yourself in knots here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee
What are you proposing should be done and by who?
As so far, from what I can make out, you have slated the Lib Dem (and now SNP) approach, condemned the Tories route and confirmed the Labour plan is dead. ..
No i'm not, i'm simply pointing out the obvious. The only way a peoples vote could have happened was after the approval of a tory deal in parliament. Which of course never happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by RyeSloan
People are whinging about Labours refusal to back a general election. If anything, it's leavers who should be shouting the loudest about Labours refusal to back one, not remainers. A general election is bad news for remainers and great news for leavers.
It wasn’t Marinello59 who accused you of having an issue with female politicians, I think it was me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee
The accusation still stands.
Blackford and Swinson have both given excellent speeches tonight leaving Johnson and Corbyn looking decidedly shifty.
Dec12 election didn't get the 2/3 needed
Pm to try again tomorrow
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They are decidedly shifty. Or at least the folk with their hands up their backs making them work are.Quote:
Originally Posted by marinello59
This is getting off the scale ridiculous...reading the report from the BBC just made me shake my head and wonder if any of them have any idea how bloody stupid these endless politicking shenanigans are making them look?Quote:
Originally Posted by Callum_62
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50213548
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Torie's won't agree to an election on the 9th of December, Swinson's ruled out backing an election on the 12th, 3 'kin day difference...
Why are the Govt against the 9th?Quote:
Originally Posted by CloudSquall
And opp against the 12th?
Must be a reason
Edit - ah, ok
"The Lib Dems and SNP want Monday, 9 December, which they say will prevent any chance of the prime minister's Brexit deal being approved before Parliament is dissolved.
Parliament has to be dissolved a minimum of 25 working days before the date of an election to allow sufficient preparations to take place."
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Listening to a Dispatches programme just now about the implications for the NHS with a trade deal with the Trump government. Depressing.
..and the government won't agree to the 9th due to the below,Quote:
Originally Posted by Callum_62
""Govt's justification for not agreeing the Lib Dems date of 9th is that they are not sure they can get the bill through in time, and Northern Ireland Budget Bill has to be passed before Parliament can be dissolved""
If Labour can make the election about this then they have a chance. Play the fear card. Maybe put it on a bus.[emoji6]Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim44
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That was actually depressing. You kind of wonder what kind of lock in would be involved that the NHS can't get drugs from other countriesQuote:
Originally Posted by Jim44
Johnson isnt bringing the bill back. It's straight to an election. Dec 9 not great but as long as brexit isn't sorted I can't see Johnson winning.Quote:
Originally Posted by CloudSquall
He’s still very much the favourite right now. Labour will need to up their game substantially and there to be a massive tactical voting movement to have any chance of even getting to a hung parliament.Quote:
Originally Posted by mjhibby
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"No 10 sources" are saying the Goverment will accept the SNP/Lib Dem amendent to allow for an election but on the 11th of December instead of the 9th.
A compromise. Amazing.Quote:
Originally Posted by CloudSquall
Imagine if elections actually returned MPs proportional to the percentage of votes actually cast for them?
Labour will end up abstaining. They are going into an election campaign and nobody has the first idea what they stand for.Quote:
Originally Posted by CloudSquall
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